Heroica RPG General Discussion

[Waterbrick Down]

For a balance issue, I would suggest that it takes 1 turn to switch artifacts. Just a personal QM preference.

[Zepher]

I switch weapons all the time. I don't think that should cost a turn, in theory I could be holding one sword in each hand. I'd be angry if it was switched, my whole battle strategy revolves around me being able to switch! I've been working hard on this, Sanders!

[Flipz]

You can of course carry more than two artefacts, but you can only have two of them equipped at a time. I think I will have to impose a rule about switching artefacts: if you want to switch your equipped artefacts when in a battle, it will cost you a turn. I'm not sure if the same should apply to weapons as well...

Discussion?

Artifacts? Yes. Weapons? Not so much, it would make Rogues even more powerful (since they could just use a throwing weapon and automatically switch to their backup sword, unless they would be forced to spend a round unarmed before switching, which would be kinda unfair), and frankly it would make elemental matchups annoying (i.e. the party finishes off a Firey opponent with Aquamarine weapons and then has to wait around for a turn to switch weapons to fight an Aquatic opponent). Mages could bypass this with elemental gems, but that would be unfair compared to the other classes, so they would have to spend a turn switching gems, which would make them pretty much useless. Even from a logical, in-game perspective, artifact switching makes sense (i.e. it takes time to change armor or helmets or the like), but weapon switching does not (their holsters/scabbards/etc. are designed to allow them to be drawn quickly).

[Darkdragon]

For a balance issue, I would suggest that it takes 1 turn to switch artifacts. Just a personal QM preference.

I think it should take a turn to switch any weapons, from a QM perspective.

[Zepher]

Sandy, on an unrelated note, will Ellaria be joining us in the hall again soon? I think others have requested her back as well, but with things apparently cooling down for you again, I think all the players want you back among our numbers!

[Brickdoctor]

I'm all for taking an extra Turn to switch anything. I think it would make strategy more important. However, the only weapons that I imagine could realistically take a Turn to switch would be bows and two-handed swords and pole arms, so I think that from a realistic point of view, the majority of the weapons shouldn't require a Turn to switch, and to keep things simple and fair, that privilege would still have to be extended to all classes.

For now, yeah, artifacts should take a Turn to switch. (unless you switch outside of battle, of course)

[Flipz]

Sandy, on an unrelated note, will Ellaria be joining us in the hall again soon? I think others have requested her back as well, but with things apparently cooling down for you again, I think all the players want you back among our numbers!

Seconded. Personally, I want to see her on a Wren Quest, I think we all would agree that it would be flippin' awesome.

[CMP]

Artifacts, yes, weapons, no. You're gonna kill Hybros if it takes a turn to switch weapons...

[Sandy]

Thank you for your fast comments! I've now edited the FAQ to mention that changing equipped artifacts during a battle costs a turn.

Sandy, on an unrelated note, will Ellaria be joining us in the hall again soon? I think others have requested her back as well, but with things apparently cooling down for you again, I think all the players want you back among our numbers!

Yes, she will, very soon. I just need to take some pictures for her reintroduction...

[swils]

As a player, I'd say Artefacts - yes, Weapons - no.

But if I put myself into a QM's shoes, I'd say that any switching of equipment should take a turn. Weigh your options beforehand, decide which items and effects will be most beneficial to you across the entirety of your opponents. Equipment selection should be something of a tactical decision. A nice side-effect is that this would encourage more use of haste consumables (blanking on the name) so that you didn't waste a full round, potentially leaving an enemy open to deal a free-hit. Plus, it would allow for a new artefact (or item enhancement, depends on implementation), say, a Quick-draw Sheath, such that weapon swapping no longer consumes a turn (or, in the case of an item modification, swapping *to* the weapon doesn't consume a turn, though swapping from it still does, etc)

Hats, shields, axes, tunics, swords, plate armors, daggers, magical jewelry, staves, bows, and lucky undergarments, should all take a turn to switch!

edit:

Apparently I type slow

Edited May 7, 2012 by swils

[Zepher]

Seconded. Personally, I want to see her on a Wren Quest, I think we all would agree that it would be flippin' awesome.

I'd love to have her some time, though Sandy usually ends up reading over my quests pretty thoroughly before they go up so that I ahve a second opinion. She'd just have to warn me about wanting to come along, and I'd hide everything from her! Speaking of which, for you Wren hungry folk, there WILL be a fourth extremely quick extremely small Wren Quest right after the Dastan Quests end (and yes, Sandy, this is the first you're hearing of this too, I'll run it by you when it comes together more).

[Flipz]

But if I put myself into a QM's shoes, I'd say that any switching of equipment should take a turn. Weigh your options beforehand, decide which items and effects will be most beneficial to you across the entirety of your opponents. Equipment selection should be something of a tactical decision. A nice side-effect is that this would encourage more use of haste consumables (blanking on the name) so that you didn't waste a full round, potentially leaving an enemy open to deal a free-hit. Plus, it would allow for a new artefact (or item enhancement, depends on implementation), say, a Quick-draw Sheath, such that weapon swapping no longer consumes a turn (or, in the case of an item modification, swapping *to* the weapon doesn't consume a turn, though swapping from it still does, etc)

Remember, though, new Heroes will find it harder to purchase Smelling Salts, and it would discourage use of elemental weapons--players would buy a cheap elemental weapon to equip if and only if undead were expected to appear on the Quest, and beyond that they would stick with a basic, non-elemental weapon so as to be able to hit everything else.

Like I said before, artifacts, yes (as the rules change indicates), weapons, no.

[swils]

Remember, though, new Heroes will find it harder to purchase Smelling Salts, and it would discourage use of elemental weapons--players would buy a cheap elemental weapon to equip if and only if undead were expected to appear on the Quest, and beyond that they would stick with a basic, non-elemental weapon so as to be able to hit everything else.

I'm (obviously) inclined to disagree. While it's true that newer Heroes won't have the funds to support frequent use of Smelling Salts, I think it's also fair to say that they won't have the funds to support a portable armory, either, and likely won't run into this issue for a while. And I don't see how it would discourage elemental weapons.. at most, I can see it discouraging putting all your eggs into one basket (stacking stats onto a single elemental weapon) so that you don't find yourself SoL when you come across an enemy that is strong against your weapon. For my own part, I don't own an elemental weapon for the purpose of dealing with undead, rather, I love being able to take the reins on a fight against enemies weak to lightning and really lay the hurt on!

In my mind, in the first round of a fight, a player would state their actions, and if they wish to use a weapon other than the first one in their inventory, they would say so--this wouldn't consume a turn, as it would be the weapon they first unsheathe for that fight.

[CMP]

And I don't see how it would discourage elemental weapons.. at most, I can see it discouraging putting all your eggs into one basket (stacking stats onto a single elemental weapon) so that you don't find yourself SoL when you come across an enemy that is strong against your weapon.

I disagree. Other than occasional WP upgrades, I think I'm done with upgrading Ratsbane - the entire reason is that having too many elements in one weapon is already a downfall. I don't think having to spend a turn to switch in the middle of battle is making it more even. And it would make throwing weapons completely useless.

[Scubacarrot]

I don't think switching weapons taking a turn is a good idea, it discourages strategy. Just take in mind the healing staff, will it see much use with this change? Probably not. It will also weaken rogues (e.g. taking away flexibility) because they have to wait a turn to use throwing weapons, completely discouraging their use.

[swils]

I disagree. Other than occasional WP upgrades, I think I'm done with upgrading Ratsbane - the entire reason is that having too many elements in one weapon is already a downfall. I don't think having to spend a turn to switch in the middle of battle is making it more even. And it would make throwing weapons completely useless.

Then, why not start building up another weapon with a different combination of elements, such that you can enter any fight and, at the start, pick between either blade, as best suits the situation at hand? I didn't consider throwing weapons, I'll admit, but I'm sure there could be an exception for them, the explanation for which being that in the time it takes you to run up and recover it after being thrown, you are able to sheath your current weapon.

[CMP]

Then, why not start building up another weapon with a different combination of elements, such that you can enter any fight and, at the start, pick between either blade, as best suits the situation at hand?

That's exactly what I plan to do. Having to take a turn to switch between them kinda kills it. Not all in enemies in one battle are the same type.

Edited May 7, 2012 by CallMePieOrDie

[Flipz]

I disagree. Other than occasional WP upgrades, I think I'm done with upgrading Ratsbane - the entire reason is that having too many elements in one weapon is already a downfall. I don't think having to spend a turn to switch in the middle of battle is making it more even. And it would make throwing weapons completely useless.

Exactly. And let's not even think about how badly it would break Mages--either they could use different gems freely, bypassing the whole weapon-switching system, or else they would be completely crippled by having to take a Turn to switch Gems.

And as to Scubacarrot's point about the Healing Staff, ALL of Elphaba's gear would be broken aside from the Ether Core and the Nimbus Broomstick, since (I think) Scrolls count as a weapon rather than an Artifact.

[CMP]

Scrolls are items, so I'm pretty sure they're exempt from this, along with gems. But us mundane classes shouldn't have a penalty for being unable to use them, it puts us at a serious disadvantage.

[Scubacarrot]

Then, why not start building up another weapon with a different combination of elements, such that you can enter any fight and, at the start, pick between either blade, as best suits the situation at hand? I didn't consider throwing weapons, I'll admit, but I'm sure there could be an exception for them, the explanation for which being that in the time it takes you to run up and recover it after being thrown, you are able to sheath your current weapon.

So basically you are saying you want everyone to just say, oh Ill attack from the front row for the whole battle, ill see you in a week? Because thats basically what will happen with this change...

[CMP]

So basically you are saying you want everyone to just say, oh Ill attack from the front row for the whole battle, ill see you in a week? Because thats basically what will happen with this change...

I think Swils makes good points, some of us just disagree with them. What he's saying has a lot more meaning than just that.

[swils]

I don't think switching weapons taking a turn is a good idea, it discourages strategy.

Au contraire, I believe that it increases strategy. You're in a fight against 3 monsters, two of which are resistant to your elemental blade, but beyond that, not a huge threat. The third monster is weak to your blade, and has the potential to wipe the floor with your party if left untended. Do you engage with a weapon that can hit all three, or do you choose to start with your elemental blade and focus on taking out the big baddy first? It's a simplified example, but the idea behind it holds.

Just take in mind the healing staff, will it see much use with this change? Probably not.

That depends entirely on the goals of the player wielding it. I believe this, too, would be a strategic choice, perhaps moreso than most others. Do you forfeit your ability to do damage (without waiting a turn to switch) in exchange for the ability to administer ether-free healing?

So basically you are saying you want everyone to just say, oh Ill attack from the front row for the whole battle, ill see you in a week? Because thats basically what will happen with this change...

Okay, I'll be honest, I have no idea how you got this from what you quoted.

[Scubacarrot]

I think Swils makes good points, some of us just disagree with them. What he's saying has a lot more meaning than just that.

No, not good points, the only possible for reason would be to make QM-ing "easier." It is a gamechanging thing, so yeah.

[swils]

That's exactly what I plan to do. Having to take a turn to switch between them kinda kills it. Not all in enemies in one battle are the same type.

For the first part, I did make the suggestion in my first post that there be a new artefact(s) or item modification available (though, perhaps not readily available) that would enable you to avoid the delay.

[Scubacarrot]

Okay, I'll be honest, I have no idea how you got this from what you quoted.

Okay, imagine a rogue, with a melee and a throwing weapon. Be honest, when would the rogue ever use their throwing weapon? Never. Because he can either take one turn to switch, and one turn to attack from the back row with full power, or attack twice with the same effect. What I am saying is, it dumbs things down, you would have to spend a turn, losing any potential damage output that round to switch weapons, not to mention extra possible free hits. In reality, unless neccasary because of elements, no one will want to lose a turn. So what will happen is, everyone with multiple weapons will use one per battle, which yes, is dumbing things down, not encouraging strategy.