Heroica RPG General Discussion

[LEGOman273]

You Rogues should be ashamed of yourselves. Daxus would never have passed up such an offer.

[JimBee]

I've always thought that Rogue was popular because of the six basic classes, it's the only one that can be considered 'badass', with a rebellious, darker side, which I know appeals to a lot of people, even if I'm not a huge fan of it.

It's also a great offensive class, right next to Barbarian. Plus, it offered the best roleplay opportunities for Hybros. Definitely wish there were more Rangers and Clerics, though.

JimBee should create a faction called the Rouge. Gaining a Great Reputation with them unlocks the Werewolf.

[Brickdoctor]

Definitely wish there were more Rangers and Clerics, though.

We can always use more Clerics.

[CMP]

Actually, I'm pretty sure we've gained 6 Clerics as a result of advanced classes. And 5 Rangers. They're pretty desirable multiclasses.

[swils]

Actually, I'm pretty sure we've gained 6 Clerics as a result of advanced classes. And 5 Rangers. They're pretty desirable multiclasses.

Or so I hope. Q35 shall be my play-/testing-ground!

[Capt.JohnPaul]

Comparing Haldor to Pretzel for example. One fights as little as possible and heals more than he fights, and one is a heavy hitter who likes to smack enemies as opposed to healing friends.

Who's who? Those definitions could go to either person.... Monk Pretzel sure is feisty.

[Palathadric]

Right now you're sticking out like sore thumbs, while also rapidly depopulating the park in the process.

Two letters: XP.

Well all the classes are diverse in play-style. Cleric is just as adaptable as rogue. Flipz said that I play Haldor like a barbarian, and I can see what he meant. Comparing Haldor to Pretzel for example. One fights as little as possible and heals more than he fights, and one is a heavy hitter who likes to smack enemies as opposed to healing friends.

I suppose Pretzel is the heavy hitter.

Oh, I love the righteousness of those rogues. Such good, noble persons.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Palathadric

[Capt.JohnPaul]

Oh, I love the righteousness of those rogues. Such good, noble persons.

I know, me too! All the "good", "righteous" people need to form a group, with Monk Pretzel as their leader.

[Palathadric]

I know, me too! All the "good", "righteous" people need to form a group, with Monk Pretzel as their leader.

What can I say? I didn't suggest it. Monk Pretzel makes a natural leader of such righteous people.

[Capt.JohnPaul]

What can I say? I didn't suggest it. Monk Pretzel makes a natural leader of such righteous people.

Yes, we shall form a "Round Table." And each member has to follow and believe Monk Pretzel's cross!

I guess that makes just us 2 eligible....

[Tanma]

No! its Lord of the Rings: the Fellowship of the Ring all over again! Don't you leave him Samwise Gamgee! But is De'kra on team Orc-Hunter, team Ring-Killer, or comic relief?

...I will post about it tomorrow, I have to sleep.

[posades]

So is this our reward for choosing to side with Constance, cause if it is it's a crappy reward.

[Zepher]

No reward for losing a fight. You chose the right side, but you got decimated. Welcome to questing with Zepher.

[JimBee]

And yes, your reward is being stuck with old me for a QM again...

[Waterbrick Down]

No reward for losing a fight. You chose the right side, but you got decimated. Welcome to questing with Zepher.

A requirement for any great PC in my opinion.

[Flipz]

*sigh* Why do all of the new Scrolls have to be unique items? I'd love to see them used more, but with so few of them being put out, it also means that they will be used less. (Not to mention how hard it makes it to become a Scroll mage, like Arthur plans to be.)

TL;DR, love the scrolls, but I don't like the limited availability. My two cents.

[CMP]

That's pretty biased. Mages are supposed to be based around gems, not scrolls. I think the 50/50 chance was added in entirely for that reason, to keep them as useful extra items. That's why Arthur is dead weight in combat half the time.

[posades]

And yes, your reward is being stuck with old me for a QM again...

And that's all the reward I need.

[Flipz]

That's pretty biased. Mages are supposed to be based around gems, not scrolls. I think the 50/50 chance was added in entirely for that reason, to keep them as useful extra items. That's why Arthur is dead weight in combat half the time.

That seems kind of...boring. As I understand it, the 50/50 chance was added in because guaranteed status effects were murder on the QMs, not to sideline them as items. Normally, with a gem, a Mage has a 3/6 chance to hit the target, or in other words a 50/50 chance; before the nerf, the Scrolls had a 100% chance of working, so they were superior. The nerf made them equal to gems, not subordinate to gems. And also note that Arthur can't afford to take even one hit from most enemies; between the health potion and the enemies having to stay balanced for Isabella, that's improved slightly, but still, from a strategic point of view, Scrolls are a better choice for him (especially considering that when he does use a gem, he can't seem to hit the flat side of a barn. )

EDIT: That...sounded entirely too whiny. Sorry, Doc, I'm not implying you or the other QMs have been unfair. I'm just explaining why gems aren't so superior to Scrolls; I don't think you've been too hard on us at all, most of the time the challenge has been in that perfect butter zone of difficult-but-survivable.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Flipz

[CMP]

Understandable. But while they're gems' equal, they weren't designed as a replacement. They weren't designed to be used instead of gems, even if they could. I think having them widely-available and in as many forms as they come in kind of dull, since it removes most of the interest factor if everyone could get kind of scroll they wanted. I personally like how's there only a few of the more obscure kinds.

They invented a cure for that, you know. It's called Nostrum.

I've completely lost sight of what I'm arguing now.

Edited June 11, 2012 by CallMePie

[Flipz]

Understandable. But while they're gems' equal, they weren't designed as a replacement. They weren't designed to be used instead of gems, even if they could. I think having them widely-available and in as many forms as they come in kind of dull, since it removes most of the interest factor if everyone could get kind of scroll they wanted. I personally like how's there only a few of the more obscure kinds.

They invented a cure for that, you know. It's called Nostrum.

Also, you can't kill an enemy using just scrolls. You've been lucky as to have been in larger quests, with NPCs that you can use to your advantage. What happens when you're 1/3 or 1/4 of your party's strength? There's not much room for a support class in that sort of situation, which is what I've made out Scroll mage to be.

Actually, you can. It's called "Scroll of Confusion," and as long as there's at least one other Hero left to fight, it works pretty well. Even solo, a Free Hit has a 50/50 chance of being redirected (at least as far as I know).

Nostrum is prohibitively expensive until you hit an Advanced class, though, and even then, unless you're a Rogue, even then it's a huge expense.

I'm not against them being somewhat rare, but the last three Scrolls introduced were just ONE of a kind, and the ones before that (Weakening/Frailty) were made in decent numbers, but exactly ONE of them will ever make it to the market (unless Durkon gets desperate for cash or something).

Personally, I think it'd be better if, instead of having all of these effect-granting weapons, Heroes had to rely on the party Mage or Cleric to cast those support effects. In traditional tabletop RPGs, you have a party of specialists, where the Knight defends the party from damage, the Rogue disables the traps, etc. etc. Mages and Clerics weren't intended as front-line fighters, but instead were shielded by the rest of the party while they wreaked havok upon the enemy with spells. Sure, once a wizard got his hands on a Fireball spell that changed, but overall magic-users were valuable because they could do things others could not. Granted, in Heroica, everyone is a bit more of a jack-of-all trades (see pre-Shaman Haldor, who attacked more often than he healed, and continues that patern as the part-Barbarian Shaman), but even so most classes have a very distinct advantage the others do not; Rogues have near-infinite Gold and can thus super-power themselves with consumables, Knights have Shield Power, Clerics of course can Heal, Barbarians are self-healing (Natural Respite) machines of death, and due to Aim Rangers are the single most consistent damage-dealing class of the Basic 6. Mages can...shoot spells? Well, other classes can imbue gems, and with just a little patience, one can get a fairly decent array of elementally-attuned weapons, within a Quest or two (also note that a Ranger with three elemental bows can hit everything in the game, and can do it with more reliability than a Mage). OK, but at least as a Job Trait, Mages can...shoot spells? How many times has Spellcasting been used outside of battle, INCLUDING Quest 17? Yeah, but Mages can...use Scrolls! Oh, but Clerics can do that, too, AND they can Heal; sure, Mages can use Healing Staves, but that's not as reliable as Clerics who can Heal Less on a Miss. Overall, Mages are...kinda useless; everything they can do, other classes can do, and usually with more skill than they can. The Advanced Classes demonstrate this perfectly; All of them except Sage are essentially "non-Mage class + token Ether spellcasting," and while Sage is more Mage-like than Cleric-like, it's also somewhat underwhelming compared to the others. Adding other classes to a Mage makes the Mage cooler, but adding Mage to other classes ends up somewhat tame compared to the other available options; they're the "nerds" of the six classes. Mages are definitely underwhelming compared to the other base classes, at least in terms of stats. Unless you do something roleplaying-wise to make yourself more interesting (i.e. Arasmyth or Althior), you sort of fade into the background. I've sort of lost where I was going with this, but I think one thing is clear: Mages are more than a little underappreciated, and we really need a chance to shine.

[CMP]

Two words. Elemental damage. Mages absolutely dominate in combat because of both dealing double damage and only taking half. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to get an armory of elemental weapons? It's an extra 50 gold every gem, and sometimes you even have to lose out on some of the enhancements because of stacking gems...unless you want to spend another 50 and buy a weapon for each. If we're going to rant on the weaknesses of the classes, you're probably the best person for the job, but it's waaaay too late for them to be changed. In hindsight, I probably should've created a Mage. Spellcasting is, yes, the only real useful thing about mages, but have you valued how useful it is? Spells are a huge angle to every fantasy world. And only Mage can use them.

[Flipz]

Two words. Elemental damage. Mages absolutely dominate in combat because of both dealing double damage and only taking half. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to get an armory of elemental weapons? It's an extra 50 gold every gem, and sometimes you even have to lose out on some of the enhancements because of stacking gems...unless you want to spend another 50 and buy a weapon for each. If we're going to rant on the weaknesses of the classes, you're probably the best person for the job, but it's waaaay too late for them to be changed. In hindsight, I probably should've created a Mage. Spellcasting is, yes, the only real useful thing about mages, but have you valued how useful it is? Spells are a huge angle to every fantasy world. And only Mage can use them.

Yeah, but I can count the number of times Spellcasting has been used outside of battle on just my fingers. Compared to the total number of non-Mage-originated elemental attacks...

Like I said, a Ranger with just 3 bows 2 bows, now that I think about it, can hit anything in the game. Elemental double-damage is somewhat of a misnomer because many QMs seem to take deliberate steps to put Heroes into difficult elemental situations, and of course Mages can just be Sealed outright; nonmagical classes can be Blinded, but as there are far more non-Mages than Mages in the average party, it's more likely that the one or two Mages will be Sealed than the entire rest of the party will be Blinded. Amethyst is the only gem that gets largely overlooked in balancing, but between Zepher (who's always done it) and others who have learned from his example, that advantage is quickly being limited.

It just seems like if Party Leaders had to pick their own teams, choosing a Mage would be a poor choice, tactically, because they're so wimpy compared to the other classes that can do everything a Mage can do AND excel in their own specialty. I'd just like to see more cases in which Mages' Spellcasting is actually useful for something.

The same holds true for tools as well, by the way--they're severely undersued as well. I'd like to see them as a part of the Quest activities, rather than as a means to bypass the Quest activities.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Flipz

[CMP]

Blame that on uncreative Mages, not the class. They can are the key words. It's the most versatile job trait, I'm surprised it hasn't been used more often. If I was a Mage I'd be flinging spells left and right just to see what happens.

Well, Mages can start with Amethysts and just burn through any humanoid they wish. It's near-impossible, minus Elphaba, for a non-mage to get a gem. Using common sense, the mage always gets the first gem the party comes across. And that's rare in itself. The only gem I, over the course of 5 quests, have gotten, is at the end of Quest 18 - and only because we got four of them. Otherwise, we have to time our quests right and shell out 150 gold to enchant a weapon. Mages don't have that weakness.

The average WP, and I'm guessing on this, is about 6 or 8, not counting the inactive heroes. Most of the enemies have at least 50 health, in big battles with lots of them. In boss battles, the normal is around 200-300. It's rendering Aim somewhat pointless. The most useful version is actually Spell Aim, and you know what kind of class you'd have to multiclass to to get that.

...I'm about done on arguing why your class is so awesome now.

[Flipz]

Blame that on uncreative Mages, not the class. They can are the key words. It's the most versatile job trait, I'm surprised it hasn't been used more often. If I was a Mage I'd be flinging spells left and right just to see what happens.

...Challenge Accepted.