Heroica RPG General Discussion

[Zepher]

Yeah, the issue is this:

Let's say that I want to pierce Docken's shield. He fights back row, and can absorb 15 damage there, which means you need to have a level 32 creature to do 1 damage to him (32/2=16-15=1). He could survive that monster for 41 rounds, assuming he didn't roll aura in that time. A 32 creature is a huge issue for everyone else. Even with the -1 automatic rule, most battles are more "see if the rogues get to gain XP" as opposed to "see if the heroes can beat the monsters" because that's never in question, Docken always will.

However, in the end, Sandy has the final say I guess. It is her game. I'll just have to pick parties more carefully from now on.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Zepher

[Scubacarrot]

So a level one rat can pierce a SP:567456 shield to cause one damage? Doesn't seem balanced to me, and what if our tank only had 1 health left, so he gets KO'd by a level one rat? Even with his SP:567456 shield, there is nothing that he can do? So a level 50 Mime can be slain by any old swarmer if his health is low, doesn't that defeat the actual point of SP?

Of course that's balanced. No it does not defeat the point of SP.

I don't like it because it defies logic. How can one player have 3 Shield Points against a Level 10 enemy, but only 2 Shield Points against a Level 1 enemy? And as a QM, it adds one more thing to remember to take into account (and battle results have already turned to be a real pain to tally, in comparison to when this game started).

And like someone said, if someone has spent a wealth of gold on SP, he deserves to reap the benefits. One possible solution would be that shields could no longer be upgradable at a blacksmith's, preventing anyone from gaining too much SP, but does anyone really want that?

Ok, it defies logic, a rat should be able to keep attacking an armored knight until the end of time without anything happening, sure. But it is bad game design. Here is why:

If a knight is fighting a poisoned enemy on his own. He could just wait until the end of time.

Enemies will slaughter other party members if you try and make a challenging enemy that is able to deal a reasonable amount of damage to the knight, without resorting to piercing SP.

Do you actually really want to have a player that is actually invincible? Don't think so.

It's actually not hard for QM's. Really now.

It does NOT make it worthless to upgrade SP, over a certain point in comparison with health and level, out of which the enemies will go, sure, but that already exists.

I haven't heard anything against it, yet, really.

[Waterbrick Down]

Question do effects take effect during the same round they are implemented or on the following round?

[Scubacarrot]

Question do effects take effect during the same round they are implemented or on the following round?

Depends on the effect and the wording of the special/weapon.

[Tanma]

Okay that map is beautiful. By the way, what was the inspiration for Dastan's culture and look, assuming it had one.

[posades]

I can see both sides of the high SP argument; it creates a lot of problems balance-wise when the team has one really high SP character while the others have limited or none. Like darkdragon said though, it would have to be up the QM's to recruit a balanced party where the enemies would be enough of a challenge for the whole group (or create one really strong enemy each round that would force the high SP character to take a free-hit from).

[Scorpiox]

If a knight is fighting a poisoned enemy on his own. He could just wait until the end of time.

Hypocrite. Sorry, I've forgotten who it was who did just that against Shadeux.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Scorpiox

[Jebediahs]

About that SP rule discussed earlier, I don't really like it if QMs alter with the basic rules of this game without consulting with me first.This is a really minor issue, but in my opinion players shouldn't have to guess if their SP is going to work or not. Sometimes it might just come down to that 1 point of health...

So please stop using this "attacks always cause a minimum of 1 damage" rule, because that's not in the official rules (and in my opinion shouldn't be either). Just make your enemies stronger, or have them pierce SP.

This I finally agree with Sandy on something... <( -_-;)> That rule belongs in the same category as "battle will be run regardless if a player has posted or not after a period of 24hrs". It's a QM preference, not a real rule.

Brickdoctor is a min/maxer and has found a way to maximize his defense within the established rules. Bravo! There's no cap on player attack damage so there should be none on player defense. He shouldn't be punished for "winning" at this game. Everyone else should l2p.

There are plenty of ways to get around SP.

• Enemies whose attacks and specials ignore defense
  
• Enemies whose attacks and specials apply badly poisoned effect
  
• Enemies whose attacks and specials apply the fragile effect
  
• Enemies whose attacks and specials apply the Cursed effect
  
• Enemies whose attacks and specials apply the Minimized effect
  
• Can even have player attacks against an enemy inflict a negative effect upon a player
  
• Enemies whose attacks do extra damage against players with eye patches (Sorry Tesni) NPC: "Hey, mah pappy was maimed by someone with an eye patch, was it you?!"
  
• Have an environmental condition like thin(ning) air that deals a set amount of damage to everyone each round
  
• Etc.

Not every fight has be a "quest failer" with extremely complex and high damage enemies all the time. Throw in at least one fight for each player that allows them to shine and one where they will have a harder time in. We need to ease up on the humanoid encounters and get more imaginative with enemy creation. Any QM who wants an "attacks always cause a minimum of 1 damage" rule is lazy.

[Flipz]

To add to this: if one party member with really high SP is making problems for QM balance, you can always take the Zepher route and lock them in a jail cell for 2/3 of the Quest split them off into their own side-Quest. Yes, this means having to run two battles at once, but the individual battles would be a LOT easier to balance and run anyway.

[Brickdoctor]

I just wanted to say that this conversation is quite fun to watch, listening to QMs discuss how to get around my SP.

Okay that map is beautiful. By the way, what was the inspiration for Dastan's culture and look, assuming it had one.

I forget. We knew Dastan had the Dragon Knights, so we started with that color scheme. JimB suggested the mountainous, dry climate with the flying natives. (I think the Rito were the first species created during the development of the three quests) Based on Zeph's outline, we knew that JimB and I would both have our parties at Fort Drakon at the same time, so JimB did his set, and I think we all drew from that for the architectural style. Everything else was done based on what pieces we each had that could fit into the rough color scheme and style. (for example, I designed Emperor Alandri's wing based on the fact that I'd gotten a ton of tan 1x3 bricks at PaB a couple years ago)

[Tanma]

I really have no business talking in this debate, as I have not hosted a quest and am not an expert on mevhanics, so I will not get involved. Instead I will bring up a side of the discussion I have not seen addressed, one that the last three quests had a lot of; enemies with SP.

...I didn't say I would talk about, just bring it up.

[Brickdoctor]

To add to this: if one party member with really high SP is making problems for QM balance, you can always take the Zepher route and lock them in a jail cell for 2/3 of the Quest split them off into their own side-Quest. Yes, this means having to run two battles at once, but the individual battles would be a LOT easier to balance and run anyway.

No, plenty of QMs have left players behind for long portions of quests. (sorry posades ) The Zepher way would be to get rid of the SP by taking away all the players' stuff.

[posades]

No, plenty of QMs have left players behind for long portions of quests. (sorry posades ) The Zepher way would be to get rid of the SP by taking away all the players' stuff.

I didn't really mind that at all since I was busy with school work/graduation/applying for work at the time (I think). I was just hoping for a magical seed that would give me lost experience from not battling when I was reunited.

[JimBee]

Okay that map is beautiful. By the way, what was the inspiration for Dastan's culture and look, assuming it had one.

Like Brickdoctor said, we wanted an arid, windy, mountainous wasteland (Sandy pretty much hit that on the head when she was answering questions about Dastan in the Library). I had Fallout: New Vegas in mind when it came to environment. And because of the climate and lack of water, a lot of the population was the survivor-type... living off the land and such, although they did live pretty richly.

Not every fight has be a "quest failer" with extremely complex and high damage enemies all the time. Throw in at least one fight for each player that allows them to shine and one where they will have a harder time in. We need to ease up on the humanoid encounters and get more imaginative with enemy creation. Any QM who wants an "attacks always cause a minimum of 1 damage" rule is lazy.

I agree with these solutions. You don't have to make game-breaking enemies to damage someone like Docken, there are other ways, like you mentioned. However, it is not always possible/reasonable to use these effects. For example, the enemy wouldn't make sense inflicting a certain effect, or a condition wanders too far outside the rule parameters.

Sandy, you argue that allowing at least 1 damage regardless of row/SP is unfair to those who have invested in SP, but wouldn't simply making SP-piercing enemies be more unfair? Just slapping that ability on takes no SP into account and is a hell of a lot worse than 1 damage. And making enemies stronger would be unfair to other players since they wouldn't stand a chance.

Besides, Docken can still last 41 hits. I don't think that it's a huge deal if the "at least 1 damage" rule is used.

Personally, I'm all for using those those solutions that Jeb mentioned. But I also think the ALOD rule (coining it now) is good to have.

[Brickdoctor]

If it helps on the logical side of things, I reason out the taking at least 1 Damage by assuming that the enemy didn't pierce my shield, he just hit it hard enough to push it backwards and bruise me.

[CMP]

SP is the Knight's(and its advanced classes') main draw and feature. Compare Warden and pretty much any other advanced class. It has a lack of interesting or vastly enhanced rolls because it's a very defensively-based class. And look at Quest 28. WBD got Docken knocked out. It's possible, and it's happened. The expense and time it takes to get so much SP is fair enough so that, for the most part, it's fair that they don't take as nearly as much damage as other classes. Knights don't do as much damage as Barbarian, don't get money every Shield, they don't get to fight at a range, they can't heal, and they can't cast spells. They're made specifically to be hard to kill. They're the tanks of Heroica, absorbing is damage is what they do.

[Brickdoctor]

SP is the Knight's(and its advanced classes') main draw and feature. Compare Warden and pretty much any other advanced class. It has a lack of interesting or vastly enhanced rolls because it's a very defensively-based class. And look at Quest 28. WBD got Docken knocked out. It's possible, and it's happened. The expense and time it takes to get so much SP is fair enough so that, for the most part, it's fair that they don't take as nearly as much damage as other classes. Knights don't do as much damage as Barbarian, don't get money every Shield, they don't get to fight at a range, they can't heal, and they can't cast spells. They're made specifically to be hard to kill. They're the tanks of Heroica, absorbing is damage is what they do.

WBD got me Knocked Out in large part because I was inside that rug and took the hits from the other heroes, not the enemy, and heroes generally deal more Damage than enemies. (I'm not saying it wasn't a creative way of getting me Knocked Out, but I didn't take those hits from the enemy itself)

I do agree, though; Defense from the Back Row is the Warden's only draw. As compared to the other classes with defensive Shields, Warden actually takes Damage, unlike the Knight's Sentinel, and lacks the protection from effects that Paladin's Guardian Angel has. High SP is pretty much the only way to take full advantage of the Warden's defensive potential, because it allows the Warden the chance of healing himself without Ether after an Aura. If you make a Warden face an SP-piercing enemy, you've basically taken away his one advantage, and now he's just a weaker Ranger, without Triple Shot and with a Shield that could very well get him killed on a roll that's supposed to be the best. Contrasted with the "ALOD" rule, which might be illogical and somewhat unfair, but it doesn't completely strip the Warden of his strength.

[Darkdragon]

Knights don't do as much damage as Barbarian, don't get money every Shield, they don't get to fight at a range, they can't heal, and they can't cast spells. They're made specifically to be hard to kill. They're the tanks of Heroica, absorbing is damage is what they do.

Well said.

[CMP]

WBD got me Knocked Out in large part because I was inside that rug and took the hits from the other heroes, not the enemy, and heroes generally deal more Damage than enemies. (I'm not saying it wasn't a creative way of getting me Knocked Out, but I didn't take those hits from the enemy itself)

Exactly. It proves that an enemy doesn't have to have an SP-piercing special or an ungodly high level to get heroes KO'd.

Don't forget to take effects into account too. Look at Atramor, he doesn't have to deal a single point of damage and he'll be dead in 5 rounds.

I've had a few ideas for special skills, and one of them deals an effect I called Sundered (mostly inspired by Jeb's scroll idea) that halves SP for the battle. Things like this aren't completely destructive, but they can really hinder a Knight. But that's a really basic way to do it.

[Scubacarrot]

SP is the Knight's(and its advanced classes') main draw and feature. Compare Warden and pretty much any other advanced class. It has a lack of interesting or vastly enhanced rolls because it's a very defensively-based class. And look at Quest 28. WBD got Docken knocked out. It's possible, and it's happened. The expense and time it takes to get so much SP is fair enough so that, for the most part, it's fair that they don't take as nearly as much damage as other classes. Knights don't do as much damage as Barbarian, don't get money every Shield, they don't get to fight at a range, they can't heal, and they can't cast spells. They're made specifically to be hard to kill. They're the tanks of Heroica, absorbing is damage is what they do.

You don't call 41 hits hard to kill?

[CMP]

You don't call 41 hits hard to kill?

That's exactly what I'm calling it. That's the whole point of being a Knight, like I said.

Warden in particular is all about soaking up damage. They're not as heavy hitters as, say, Berserker or Mystic Knight, because then Knight's being combined with offensive classes. Heavy defense /minor damage class + minor defense/damage class = Extreme defense/moderate damage class.

Edited August 17, 2012 by CallMePie

[Scubacarrot]

That's exactly what I'm calling it. That's the whole point of being a Knight, like I said.

Warden in particular is all about soaking up damage. They're not as heavy hitters as, say, Berserker or Mystic Knight, because then Knight's being combined with offensive classes. Heavy defense /minor damage class + minor defense/damage class = Extreme defense/moderate damage class.

So what do you think about the 1 damage rule? No one gives any good reason not to have it. Jeb makes some good points, but a matter of targetting negates that, unless all enemies have these effects in a battle...

Balancing the party is not a good argument, that would mean you either need a party full of Knights, or a party without a Knight to be able to avoid the instant kills, won't it?

And let me just say this: If an enemy is able to kill you in one shot from full health, it's not a good enemy.

[Peppermint_M]

That 1 point of damage a hit idea is a pile of poop.

Sorry, but this just seems to be a case of class and strategy envy.

Players invest their gold into SP for strategic reasons. That is how some people play.

I suppose we'll pull out any chance of a 1-hit KO because that is unfair too.

Me? I am making Tesni as tough as I can, that way I can work her as the meat sheild/ Tank to my hearts content.

Anything to avoid using brains I guess. We need clever QM's not nerfing.

[Brickdoctor]

Warden in particular is all about soaking up damage. They're not as heavy hitters as, say, Berserker or Mystic Knight, because then Knight's being combined with offensive classes. Heavy defense /minor damage class + minor defense/damage class = Extreme defense/moderate damage class.

I wouldn't go so far as to call a Warden an extreme Defense class, just because they actually do take Damage during Aura. Their Aura roll alone is weaker than the Sentinel and the Guardian Angel rolls. The advantage of Aura is that it can allow the Warden to heal himself, and that's where the SP really matters. Without any SP, the Warden is a weak Ranger who's probably going to get Knocked Out during his Shield roll.

I know I'm biased when I say this, but Defense is the Warden's only strength, and because of the mechanics of his Shield, it's less fair to have an SP-piercing enemy than it is to apply the "ALOD" rule.

[CMP]

I wouldn't go so far as to call a Warden an extreme Defense class, just because they actually do take Damage during Aura. Their Aura roll alone is weaker than the Sentinel and the Guardian Angel rolls. The advantage of Aura is that it can allow the Warden to heal himself, and that's where the SP really matters. Without any SP, the Warden is a weak Ranger who's probably going to get Knocked Out during his Shield roll.

Benji hasn't gotten knocked out yet. Remember, Rangers take half damage anyway. But, yes, the ideal Warden should probably have SP to be used to its full potential.

And, well, maybe extreme defense isn't the right word, but they are the most defensive-based class in the game. Half damage and SP to boot.

Edited August 17, 2012 by CallMePie