Brickdoctor Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 I think I can agree to the "minimum of 1 damage" if it's universal - all classes would always get at least 1 damage from enemy attacks (unless the enemy is blinded or Sentinel is in effect... see, I'm already making exceptions to this rule as well! ). Would this be a fair solution? I was under the impression that that was the rule in the first place. Anyways, that's what I think works best. Yay! Besides, it would cost 1600 gold to upgrade the Mythril Shield just once. Only 160, actually. Quote
Endgame Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 Is there something stopping people from signing up for 46? Did I set the reward too low? Quote
Scubacarrot Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 Is there something stopping people from signing up for 46? Did I set the reward too low? I don't know, it looks like a cool reward to me! I imagine you will get some sign ups in the next few days due to people returning from the Dastan quests. Quote
JimBee Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 I think I can agree to the "minimum of 1 damage" if it's universal - all classes would always get at least 1 damage from enemy attacks (unless the enemy is blinded or Sentinel is in effect... see, I'm already making exceptions to this rule as well! ). Would this be a fair solution? I thought this was already in place. I don't want it to seem like we're just picking on knights, and of course it should carry over to any class. ALOD should apply to all, key word 'at least'. This idea makes sense as far as I'm concerned, but, as you said, upgrading SP will get so insanely expensive by the time it reaches 15-20 SP that probably few heroes if any, will even bother to do it. I don't really think a limit is necessary because I believe the cost can serve as a cap. Docken was able to upgrade quickly because of the Mythril he got, but not many heroes will be able to buy mythril and certainly not at so cheap a price as he bought his for. :shrug: As Doc pointed out, cost is not as big of a factor as you might think. Only 160 gold to bring his SP up to 16. And if cost were a cap to SP, this rule would be a safeguard. And we can't guarantee that another hero won't get Mythril, or decide to upgrade. Knifk is already at 11 SP. Only 160, actually. Right. Quote
Endgame Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 I don't know, it looks like a cool reward to me! I imagine you will get some sign ups in the next few days due to people returning from the Dastan quests. Hopefully. Dastan has all been back for a day and nobody has signed up for 46 except Capn... When is 40 set to start, by the way? It was supposed to... 2 days ago. Quote
Scubacarrot Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 Hopefully. Dastan has all been back for a day and nobody has signed up for 46 except Capn... When is 40 set to start, by the way? It was supposed to... 2 days ago. Soon.™ Quote
Flipz Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) Well, where's the balance? Now I hear complains that knights are too powerful, but without SP upgrades they would be too weak. Help me out here! I think I can agree to the "minimum of 1 damage" if it's universal - all classes would always get at least 1 damage from enemy attacks (unless the enemy is blinded or Sentinel is in effect... see, I'm already making exceptions to this rule as well! ). Would this be a fair solution? I like this idea. Here's a proposition: to limit how much a shield-bearing class can upgrade. This would not affect anyone with a shield currently, but for the future. For example, Knights levels 1-5 can have a max SP of 4, 6-10 can have a max of 6, 11-15 max of 8, 16-20 max of 10, 21-25 max of 15, and so on, limiting the SP of a shield as necessary when players actually get that strong. This would only be for actual shield upgrades, and not include any artifacts (or maybe it should who knows). This is a good idea as well, though I also think that shields should be a bit more expensive to upgrade; considering the average size of a Quest reward, 160 Gold is chump change for high-level Heroes like Docken. Following Pie's suggested upgrade cost scheme, 320 Gold is a lot more manageable, and conforms to the law of diminishing returns a lot better. I have to agree that enemies' could use a bit more zest. To quote a special I'll be using in 46: Butterfinger Bash: Rams into a hero, making them drop everything equipped. The hero has to spend a turn picking up each piece of dropped equipment to use it again. Endgame, you have a true gift with enemy specials. I envy your skill! Endgame Level ??? Eurobricks Count HP: ??/?? SP: ?? Special: Comes up with epic enemy Specials. Edited August 17, 2012 by Flipz Quote
Zepher Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 As for the problem with high SP, I'm leaning more and more towards banning SP upgrades altogether (including using Mythril and the Mystic Knight's enhancement on shields). As addressed, you can't really do that as that's the only thing that makes Knight classes unique now that everyone has SP. I think I can agree to the "minimum of 1 damage" if it's universal - all classes would always get at least 1 damage from enemy attacks Yes, that's always been that way. It's not a punishment to the Knight classes, it's just a mechanic I added to make my fights make sense. And upgrading shields still makes sense. 1 damage is rarely going to KO anyone (yes, I admit SOMETIMES it may... but I don't think it's ever finished anyone in one of my quests). There is still, of course, incentive to upgrade shields. As I've said, Docken is safe from anyone under level 32 right now, if we implement the no (-1) on Free Hits rule. He's invincible to those people BECAUSE he upgraded his shield so much. It takes 41 rounds to kill him. Without his shield, against a person of 26, let's say, it would take only 4 rounds of free hits. So, upgrading his shield gives him an extra 35 rounds right now. I'd say that's a pretty good incentive to use a shield, and proves it's worth even with this rule. Final three points: Other than the first time I noticed we needed it, I have always warned my parties I'd implement that rule. Peppy, I'm sorry that you think we're cheating the system by using, but actually the rule helps a lot of QMs created balanced and fair fights. You know I love ya, but your comment was a little off-base. Finally, all this is coming from a shield user. I agree to it. I think it's needed. Quote
Endgame Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 Endgame, you have a true gift with enemy specials. I envy your skill! Endgame Level ??? Eurobricks Count HP: ??/?? SP: ?? Special: Comes up with epic enemy Specials. A 3 digit level? ooh, that might be problematic for people who encounter me... No, but really, thanks! I dabble in video game design a bit (as well as enemy AI), so I guess I got pretty good at it over the years. Quote
Scubacarrot Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 As addressed, you can't really do that as that's the only thing that makes Knight classes unique now that everyone has SP. Yes, that's always been that way. It's not a punishment to the Knight classes, it's just a mechanic I added to make my fights make sense. And upgrading shields still makes sense. 1 damage is rarely going to KO anyone (yes, I admit SOMETIMES it may... but I don't think it's ever finished anyone in one of my quests). There is still, of course, incentive to upgrade shields. As I've said, Docken is safe from anyone under level 32 right now, if we implement the no (-1) on Free Hits rule. He's invincible to those people BECAUSE he upgraded his shield so much. It takes 41 rounds to kill him. Without his shield, against a person of 26, let's say, it would take only 4 rounds of free hits. So, upgrading his shield gives him an extra 35 rounds right now. I'd say that's a pretty good incentive to use a shield, and proves it's worth even with this rule. Final three points: Other than the first time I noticed we needed it, I have always warned my parties I'd implement that rule. Peppy, I'm sorry that you think we're cheating the system by using, but actually the rule helps a lot of QMs created balanced and fair fights. You know I love ya, but your comment was a little off-base. Finally, all this is coming from a shield user. I agree to it. I think it's needed. This is exactly my view on the matter, thanks for saying it clearly like this. Quote
Brickdoctor Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 This is a good idea as well, though I also think that shields should be a bit more expensive to upgrade; considering the average size of a Quest reward, 160 Gold is chump change for high-level Heroes like Docken. Following Pie's suggested upgrade cost scheme, 320 Gold is a lot more manageable, and conforms to the law of diminishing returns a lot better. Actually, 160 Gold isn't extremely expensive, but it isn't nothing for heroes that aren't Rogues. It's probably around half to a third of what I'd make on a quest in Gold or items immediately exchanged for Gold, and it only results in +1 SP. Quote
Flipz Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) Actually, 160 Gold isn't extremely expensive, but it isn't nothing for heroes that aren't Rogues. It's probably around half to a third of what I'd make on a quest in Gold or items immediately exchanged for Gold, and it only results in +1 SP. True, but also recall that each extra point of SP is equivalent to a 20-30 HP increase (1 extra Damage negated per hit x # of times hit during Quest). Thus, +1 SP every other Quest makes sense, especially since the SP is already so high. Edited August 17, 2012 by Flipz Quote
CorneliusMurdock Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 This is a good idea as well, though I also think that shields should be a bit more expensive to upgrade; considering the average size of a Quest reward, 160 Gold is chump change for high-level Heroes like Docken. Following Pie's suggested upgrade cost scheme, 320 Gold is a lot more manageable, and conforms to the law of diminishing returns a lot better. Don't make me ban you. I mean, um, Cronk not made of gold! Knights have other things to spend money on besides shields. Sure I want a strong shield, but I need to keep my weapons upgraded as well. Can't be bashing with a WP:5 forever. And knights use consumables as well. Quote
Scubacarrot Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 I really don't see a need to up the gold for upgrading shields, I think the curve that is already there added to the fact that Quest rewards have not increased terribly with level make it so that there is enough challenge to it. Quote
Kadabra Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 Don't make me ban you. I mean, um, Cronk not made of gold! Knights have other things to spend money on besides shields. Sure I want a strong shield, but I need to keep my weapons upgraded as well. Can't be bashing with a WP:5 forever. And knights use consumables as well. You know Cornelius, I've had a highly irrational fear of you ever since I was chambered that one time for immaturity. It's comments like these that reinforce my Murdockphobia. Quote
Jebediahs Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 Why do we need minimum damage? Or a shield cap? Just make enemies stronger in a game. We chose to upgrade and we chose our classes to play the game how we wanted to within the ruleset. There will still be players who pick up armour or shields that are powerful, will we nerf them? There is no game imbalance right now and no problems really. Amen sister! Jumpstart the Heroica RPG Civil War. Quote
JimBee Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 Well clearly there is a problem with balance since we're discussing it... Quote
Zepher Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 I've said what I have to say on the matter. I think I explained why it needs to be the way it is well enough, and I will keep the rule in place in my quests, unless Sandy states specifically that she demands we all change it. In a entirely not mean way, if you don't like it, avoid my quests, because it will be present, and I don't want you to play in a way you don't enjoy. Quote
swils Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 Well clearly there is a problem with balance since we're discussing it... Actual Balance vs Perceived balance Forceful blow: Knocks target back a row. They must fight from the resulting row in the next round. If knocked back from the back row, character will be forced to act from the back row next round, but will take damage as though they had zero SP. Simple position-based monster trait. Keeps people(cough doc cough) from always eating hits from the back row and makes it more a mkre straregic decision. Works especially well with charge-up attacks ;) Quote
CorneliusMurdock Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 You know Cornelius, I've had a highly irrational fear of you ever since I was chambered that one time for immaturity. It's comments like these that reinforce my Murdockphobia. Why would such a fear be "irrational"? Quote
Capt.JohnPaul Posted August 18, 2012 Posted August 18, 2012 (edited) Caps on SP? I spend all my money on SP, I don't upgrade my sword. I'm a defensive player. Really, I'm a paladin in heavy armor and a metal shield, so a level 1 can hurt me? Also, my chainmail artifact cuts free hits in half, so does an enemy deal .5 damage to me? Or must it be 1? Is my artifact's ability now not worth anything? Shields or Bust. @CallmePie, ya, Benji/Flare has been KO'd. Edited August 18, 2012 by Capt.JohnPaul Quote
TheBoyWonder Posted August 18, 2012 Posted August 18, 2012 Caps on SP? I spend all my money on SP, I don't upgrade my sword. I'm a defensive player. Really, I'm a paladin in heavy armor and a metal shield, so a level 1 can hurt me? Also, my chainmail artifact cuts free hits in half, so does an enemy deal .5 damage to me? Or must it be 1? Is my artifact's ability now not worth anything? Shields or Bust. @CallmePie, ya, Benji/Flare has been KO'd. But Flare doesnt have a shield. It's hardly surprising! Quote
Kadabra Posted August 18, 2012 Posted August 18, 2012 Why would such a fear be "irrational"? Ohgoohgodohgodohgod, please don't ban me! Quote
posades Posted August 18, 2012 Posted August 18, 2012 Hopefully. Dastan has all been back for a day and nobody has signed up for 46 except Capn... When is 40 set to start, by the way? It was supposed to... 2 days ago. Xander signed up for #46 (along with #40 and #44). Quote
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