Heroica RPG General Discussion

[K-Nut]

-Mages can STILL use weapons with special abilities, they just lose the ability to fight in the back row if they choose to do so.

Unless it's a broomstick, but none of those have come out yet.

The thing that balances Mage out is the health. For each class that can use the gems to double damage, they gain the least health of anyone. (Mage's start out with low health, Their advanced classes have the lowest health gain, Necromancer's only gain 5 health, etc) I still agree that they're some of the most powerful players in the game, though, but I don't think nerfing them would do much good.

[Brickdoctor]

Since I created the Staff of the Cultist Battlemage, can I change it into a Broomstick of the Cultist Battlemage? It's really pretty much useless otherwise. As Flipz said, why would you risk going to the Front Row and giving up an elemental attack for only a 50% chance at Fleeing?

[Flipz]

-Mages can use scrolls, which supplements in many ways those special abilities that weapons have.

Scrolls keep getting nerfed, though.

Like I said, I get it for "attack" abilities, like the Lullaby Wand's sleep-effect, I really do. It's a matter of balance. But for passive specials, I don't see why a spell should affect things. (Specifically, the Book of a Thousand Creatures and the Staff of the Cultist Battlemage should keep their abilities on spell rolls.)

[Sandy]

I agree with the passive specials thing, that does make sense in my mind. It doesn't really have anything to do with fighting anyway.

Weapons shouldn't have passive abilities unrelated to the weapon itself in the first place - that's what the artefacts are for. In the case of the Cultist's Staff, the flee-skill is not actually passive; it's initiated when an enemy is KO'ed with the staff. The ability does not extend to the use of other weapons (as it would on an artefact), so why should it apply to spells either?

If you still find the logic behind this hard to grasp, picture the situation in your head: a mage casts a fireball with his left hand while holding the staff in his right hand. The fireball does not come from the staff, but the weapon in his hand only kinda amplifies the power of the spell (so that magic wouldn't be too underpowered).

It's hard to explain a concept that's utter fantasy and could be thought of in numerous different ways, but this is how it works in Heroica RPG. Period.

[Scubacarrot]

I don't see what the big deal is, I thought it was obvious to begin with.

[Flipz]

Weapons shouldn't have passive abilities unrelated to the weapon itself in the first place - that's what the artefacts are for. In the case of the Cultist's Staff, the flee-skill is not actually passive; it's initiated when an enemy is KO'ed with the staff. The ability does not extend to the use of other weapons (as it would on an artefact), so why should it apply to spells either?

If you still find the logic behind this hard to grasp, picture the situation in your head: a mage casts a fireball with his left hand while holding the staff in his right hand. The fireball does not come from the staff, but the weapon in his hand amplifies the power of the spell.

It's hard to explain a concept that's utter fantasy and could be thought of in numerous different ways, but this is how it works in Heroica RPG. Period.

Actually, the Cultist's staff special is that, if the enemy would K.O. the Hero, there's a 50% chance the Hero Flees instead of being K.O.'d (and possibly failing the Quest). To shamelessly copy your method of explanation ( ), Arthur tries to cast a lightning bolt at the enemy, but the enemy dodges it and swings his sword at Arthur. Arthur blocks with the staff, and it releases a cloud of black smoke that allows him to Flee.

[CMP]

The staff is useless either way, you're half Rogue now.

[K-Nut]

The staff is useless either way, you're half Rogue now.

Almost nobody has done it (besides Dyric) so I forgot that Rogue's can flee.

[Flipz]

The staff is useless either way, you're half Rogue now.

Yeah, but the staff is a fail-safe; if I'm in serious trouble, but the enemy is also fairly weak, it lets me take a bit of a gamble and still have some shot at survival.

[Scubacarrot]

Almost nobody has done it (besides Dyric) so I forgot that Rogue's can flee.

Hey! Guts did a tactical flee. Once.

[CMP]

Almost nobody has done it (besides Dyric) so I forgot that Rogue's can flee.

Everyone in Quest 34 fled at some point, and Atramor used it in a different way during Quest 23, but you're right, none of the parties that have come close to failing during a battle have have had Rogues in them. Except Quest 30, but we needed to protect Phil, we would've failed anyway.

[K-Nut]

Hey! Guts did a tactical flee. Once.

I really need these quest in more detail.

[Flipz]

I really need these quest in more detail.

I think you accidentally a word?

And also, in Princess Panic, Sorrow fled, allowing the party to fail by negotiation rather than in battle.

[K-Nut]

I think you accidentally a word?

More like a letter.

Hey! Guts did a tactical flee. Once.

Everyone in Quest 34 fled at some point, and Atramor used it in a different way during Quest 23, but you're right, none of the parties that have come close to failing during a battle have have had Rogues in them. Except Quest 30, but we needed to protect Phil, we would've failed anyway.

And also, in Princess Panic, Sorrow fled, allowing the party to fail by negotiation rather than in battle.

I guess I was wrong.

[Sandy]

Actually, the Cultist's staff special is that, if the enemy would K.O. the Hero, there's a 50% chance the Hero Flees instead of being K.O.'d (and possibly failing the Quest).

I've said it in the past and I will say it again: complex effects like that give me a headache.

Can we drop this subject now, or do people still want to nitpick?

[Quarryman]

Can we drop this subject now, or do people still want to nitpick?

I want to go back to whining about the direwolves in the Fields of Glory.

(they are mighty frustrating though)

[Flipz]

Can we drop this subject now, or do people still want to nitpick?

Doc asked if, since he created the weapon, he could retcon its type to be a broomstick so its special could work as intended. I'd kind of like to know the answer to that so I can fix it in my stats if need be.

Since I created the Staff of the Cultist Battlemage, can I change it into a Broomstick of the Cultist Battlemage? It's really pretty much useless otherwise. As Flipz said, why would you risk going to the Front Row and giving up an elemental attack for only a 50% chance at Fleeing?

[Scubacarrot]

Doc asked if, since he created the weapon, he could retcon its type to be a broomstick so its special could work as intended. I'd kind of like to know the answer to that so I can fix it in my stats if need be.

I'd say no. By that logic every melee weapon every mage got should be changed.

[Brickdoctor]

I want to go back to whining about the direwolves in the Fields of Glory.

(they are mighty frustrating though)

If I go to the Fields, I'm debating whether I should go face the Direwolves for old time's sake, or just avoid them because they still annoy me, nearly fifty quests later.

Doc asked if, since he created the weapon, he could retcon its type to be a broomstick so its special could work as intended. I'd kind of like to know the answer to that so I can fix it in my stats if need be.

"Bah, retcons!"

[Khorne]

I've always assumed that weapons with effects use their effect even with spells. That's why we channel spells through specific weapons.

So Siercon's Lullaby Wand should do automatic Sleep effect on its target, next to the amount of damage done by the spell he's using?

[Scubacarrot]

So Siercon's Lullaby Wand should do automatic Sleep effect on its target, next to the amount of damage done by the spell he's using?

No, it should not.

[Flipz]

I'd say no. By that logic every melee weapon every mage got should be changed.

No, just the ones created with special abilities that are affected by this rules clarification. The weapon was designed a specific way, and this rules clarification completely alters how it works. I see no reason why altering it to remedy a QM's misunderstanding of the rules, at that QM's own request would be against the spirit of the game.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Flipz

[Scubacarrot]

No, just the ones created with special abilities that are affected by this rules clarification. The weapon was designed a specific way, and this rules clarification completely alters how it works. I see no reason why altering it to remedy a QM's misunderstanding of the rules, at that QM's own request would be against the spirit of the game.

Look, it was clear to me, and others. Nothing gets affected by it, only what you thought. One could interpretate every rule differently to get things changed this way...

[Flipz]

Look, it was clear to me, and others. Nothing gets affected by it, only what you thought. One could interpretate every rule differently to get things changed this way...

It was not clear to Doc, that's what I'm saying. He was the one to ask in the first place.

*logs off for a while*

[Sandy]

Doc asked if, since he created the weapon, he could retcon its type to be a broomstick so its special could work as intended. I'd kind of like to know the answer to that so I can fix it in my stats if need be.

No, you may not change your weapon type.

Brickdoctor is free to create a Cultist's Broomstick in a future quest of his.