Heroica RPG General Discussion

[JimBee]

I've said it in the past and I will say it again: complex effects like that give me a headache.

Can we drop this subject now, or do people still want to nitpick?

I would just like to add one thing: why are you guys (not Sandy) acting like you have to fight from the front row if you're given a melee weapon with a special effect? You can always fight from the back row and simply give and take half damage...

[Scorpiox]

I would just like to add one thing: why are you guys (not Sandy) acting like you have to fight from the front row if you're given a melee weapon with a special effect? You can always fight from the back row and simply give and take half damage...

Problem (Mostly) solved.

If anyone is worried about been bumped of, then they should consider using their special weapon from the back row instead.

[Zepher]

So Siercon's Lullaby Wand should do automatic Sleep effect on its target, next to the amount of damage done by the spell he's using?

I can't tell if this is calling me out for being silly or not, but I've only ever really hosted a mage with the book of a thousand creatures, which I was told worked on spells. I can see how the lullaby wand would seem over-powered if it was like that, I just haven't ever seen it before. Like I said, I'm supportive of this rule clarification.

Look, it was clear to me, and others. Nothing gets affected by it, only what you thought. One could interpretate every rule differently to get things changed this way...

In his defense, a lot of QMs, including the one who created the item in question, did not play the game this way until this point. Again, I'm pro this clarification, but a weapon that was designed one way that now does not work that way is actually unfair in my mind.

No, you may not change your weapon type.

Brickdoctor is free to create a Cultist's Broomstick in a future quest of his.

As I said above, he is only considering changing it because he created it with a different understanding. He meant it to work one way, that is now changed. I personally think that it should be allowed to be changed, to serve the function it was meant to serve. Again, I am nitpicking, I'm pro this clarification entirely.

If these direwolves keep spawning, it truly will be the unlimited quest.

[Pandora]

We fight in the back row as we start with hardly any health - that's the trade off - we get to fling powerful spells with the balance of being extremely vulnerable. This was discussed at the very start of Heroica.

It auto-nerfs my Special - I get to give half as much damage in from the physical portion because I'm hardly likely to always stand in the front row for the 1 in 6 chance I might roll a Shield.

This is the balance, we already have it.

[CMP]

QM Note: Remember that you can make conditional actions, such as "I attempt to seal Direwolf E, and if I fail that, I will try again on the second turn. If I succeed, I will try to seal Direwolf F on the second turn."

You can?

[Scubacarrot]

You can?

I thought the exact same thing.

[Brickdoctor]

If these direwolves keep spawning, it truly will be the unlimited quest.

And the price of Mead should drop considerably once they do win.

[Sandy]

You can?

I thought the exact same thing.

No, I just wanted to mess with Quarryman.

Of course you can, it's been done before in my quests in the past. It mostly applies to double turns, but also to situations where an ally attempts something that might fail (like healing).

Don't go overboard with this, though.

[Endgame]

No, I just wanted to mess with Quarryman.

Of course you can, it's been done before in my quests in the past. It mostly applies to double turns, but also to situations where an ally attempts something that might fail (like healing).

Don't go overboard with this, though.

...I've denied my questies that twice.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Endgame

[Zepher]

Me too.

Also, Scuba, according to the rules that you said you've always understood, Nyx's book should not have rolled for a summon any of the times she's used a spell with it.

[Scubacarrot]

Also, Scuba, according to the rules that you said you've always understood, Nyx's book should not have rolled for a summon any of the times she's used a spell with it.

No it's different.

[Zepher]

...oh, thanks for that thorough explanation...

Why, exactly, is it different? The ruling was that "weapon special effects DO NOT take place when spells are used". So what about this one weapon makes it different from all other weapons?

I'm also, as always, not trying to be rude. I'm just confused because you said you understood the ruling, and were really pro it, and yet aren't following what Sandy said. Just trying to get clarification!

[Scubacarrot]

...oh, thanks for that thorough explanation...

Why, exactly, is it different? The ruling was that "weapon special effects DO NOT take place when spells are used". So what about this one weapon makes it different from all other weapons?

Magic.

Do I really have to explain? I'm tired. Right. So technically it makes sense from a RP perspective, but whatever. It is a 1 in 6 chance on every roll, that's what it says on the item. Whereas other items have no clarification, in which you can assume "does blahblah, ON HIT." Makes sense? Yes, no? If needed, I can clarify by adding: Works with channelling spells through it or whatever...

[Zepher]

No, weapon effects do not apply to spells.

Weapons shouldn't have passive abilities unrelated to the weapon itself in the first place - that's what the artefacts are for. In the case of the Cultist's Staff, the flee-skill is not actually passive; it's initiated when an enemy is KO'ed with the staff. The ability does not extend to the use of other weapons (as it would on an artefact), so why should it apply to spells either?

If you still find the logic behind this hard to grasp, picture the situation in your head: a mage casts a fireball with his left hand while holding the staff in his right hand. The fireball does not come from the staff, but the weapon in his hand only kinda amplifies the power of the spell (so that magic wouldn't be too underpowered).

It's hard to explain a concept that's utter fantasy and could be thought of in numerous different ways, but this is how it works in Heroica RPG. Period.

I think this pretty much says that's not allowed...

[Scubacarrot]

I think this pretty much says that's not allowed...

Well. I did not know passives on weapons weren't allowed. There has been quite a bit of discussion about this item back when it was first created, and Sandy eventually allowed it.

If it needs changing, I'll give Nyx the choice to either turn it into an Accessory or to have it only work on melee hits, but I would be kind of annoyed if that is the case, so I expect it'll be fine, considering the talk there has been about it in the past.

[Sandy]

The Book of a Thousand Creatures should really have been an artefact, not a weapon (books are not a weapon class to begin with, anyway). We could've avoided this whole confusion if it was, but we are all human, we make mistakes. I know I approved it when Scuba presented it to me, but I remember that I had doubts.

Let's all be more lenient to each other (me included, I've been needlessly blunt about this issue). I agree that the effect on Nyx's book does not really work with the current ruleset.

My suggestion is to split both the Cultist's Staff and the Book of a Thousand Creatures into a weapon (staff?) with the same WP and an artefact (a cloak and a book?) carrying the effect. That way we can all save us some future headaches. Are the players holding the items and the QMs who created these items satisfied with this suggestion? Because I see very few options besides this.

I guess will have to be extra strict with approving all unique items like this in the future. The Quest Masters often like to use their imagination with their items, but the creations might not always fit the ruleset, like has been seen on several occasions now...

[Brickdoctor]

I would still prefer to change it into a broomstick, since otherwise it would take up an artifact slot, but that's fine with me, if Flipz agrees.

[Scubacarrot]

I think the Book should just stay, you can't compare the two. You are talking about nerfing an underpowered, but still fun, item. I think it is the best item I have created and would be a shame if it would not be used anymore because of this, I fear that will happen because of it.

So frankly, I am not satisfied with that solution.

Still, I don't think there is anything else to do, even though I really don't see the problem with the item.

[Pandora]

So frankly, I am not satisfied with that solution.

Me either.

The Book was discussed extensively at the time it was created and given out, and nerfed at that time already.

Plus you're also nerfing my back-up weapon (Explosive Staff), plus my Shield is semi-nerfed already.

[Scubacarrot]

After thinking about it for a little bit, I think the best solution is just to allow passives on weapons like this.

[Zepher]

Quite a different tune than the one you were singing when items that weren't related to you were under scrutiny.

I'm teasing. I know the debates are so that we can all hash the best rule set.

Here's my suggestion: weapons that are usable by MAGES and their advanced classes may use their effects while spells are being used through them. It makes logical and RP sense, and solves the issue with the Book and the Cultist Staff.

AS ALWAYS: Flipz, Scuba, Sandy, anyone else I may or may not be butting heads with in this debate, you all know you have my utmost respect, or else I wouldn't even bother arguing the points with you.

[Palathadric]

...I've denied my questies that twice.

You're a freakin' cheater!

I want my ether back!!!

[Kadabra]

I don't see why anyone thinks Spells are OP anyway. So what if we mages get to hit from the back row with an elemental effect and a weapon effect? So does literally any Ranger or Rogue with an imbued, special effect ranged weapon. And let's be honest - if you have a special effect weapon you like, you're going to make it your primary. You're hen going to imbue it with every gem you like on it, and only keep others for type coverage. So if Skrall gets to shoot arrows from the back row that knockback or do extra damage to Beasts AND be elementary imbued, but Namyrra can't shoot off a spell that puts an enemy to sleep, it's just plain silly. Who on earth runs around smacking people with wands? You don't! In any fantasy novel or movie you read or watch, the spell comes out of the tip of your wand or staff. Harry Potter's Expelliarmuses don't come from his fingertips while he bludgeons people with his super special extra magical wand, he channels his power through the wand directly, and uses it as an implement in spells like Lumos (where the wand itself glows, it doesn't create a free-floating light.) Gsndalf's staff isn't a club, he uses it to spray flames and slams it into the floor to make cool things happen. Since the magic travels through the staff or wand, it should pick up the properties of the staff or wand. Simple. If you're going to get your panties in a twist (not insulting anyone specific, just a figure of speech) about balance, then consider this: Rangers get more starting health and larger health bonuses for Avanced classes than us, and they have unlimited ammo from the back row. We are squishy and weak, and we have limits on casting with Ether and the types of Gems we wield. "Oh, they can use Scrolls!" So can Clerics. Also, guess what? I we want to use a Scroll, it costs Ether, as much as 10 a pop! That's en less spells we can cast until we blow our gold on Tonics! So if you nerf us, then Rangers need to buy themselves arrows from now on, or you're just being hypocritical. Of course, the ideal solution is that neither class gets nerfed and we continue playing the way all of us but Scubacarrot and Samdy have been.

[Waterbrick Down]

One thought to add, if we start denying weapon effects to mages or any ether based attacks they also have to get the advantages, for instance if Nyx was wielding Leojagd she wouldn't be slowed. Or if a sorcerer got a hold of the Sword od the Vampir they wouldn't be jynxed.

[CorneliusMurdock]

Just to add my thoughts...

From a roleplaying perspective, it makes sense for the spell to go through the wand or staff because as Kadabra pointed out that's how it works in most fantasy. Not sure how much sense it makes for the same thing to happen through something like a sword. (Though I did see a wizard do such a thing in an episode of the short-lived Dresden Files TV show.) But really keeping it simple would logically say all or nothing as far as weapons go.

And since WP effects the power of spells, the equipped weapon already comes into play so it makes sense not to ignore it for other purposes.

The main issue seems to be "Does it make Mages overpowered?" Considering that all but a few QMs have been doing this anyway for a year with no complaints, leads me to believe it isn't.

I think the real issue is weapons that hit all enemies. It's only in those situations where mages channeling spells through weapons gets broken. Hybros' Bladerang is broken. He has a chance of killing every enemy in a battle each time he uses it. The whip thing Arthur is using now is only a nerfed version that could be used every round instead of having to be retrieved. I think the better solution, though JimB will probably kill me, is to either change these weapons or just never let more be created.