Heroica RPG General Discussion

[JimBee]

I think the better solution, though JimB will probably kill me,

Damn straight.

The main issue seems to be "Does it make Mages overpowered?" Considering that all but a few QMs have been doing this anyway for a year with no complaints, leads me to believe it isn't.

This makes sense to me (as does "all or nothing"), although I don't want to add to an argument against a rule that has already been in place.

On another note, cool items Scubacarrot. Though I do have one suggestion: why not just make the flail a mace (an already existing weapon that is underused). A flail can be the same thing as a mace, I think, and that makes more sense than a whip. Just my two cents (and sorry CallMePie, I don't mean to try to take the weapon away from you ).

[CMP]

On another note, cool items Scubacarrot. Though I do have one suggestion: why not just make the flail a mace (an already existing weapon that is underused). A flail can be the same thing as a mace, I think, and that makes more sense than a whip. Just my two cents (and sorry CallMePie, I don't mean to try to take the weapon away from you ).

I don't care. Clerics can use maces and Necromancers can use maces too. You can never separate me from my weapon!

[JimBee]

I don't care. Clerics can use maces and Necromancers can use maces too. You can never separate me from my weapon!

I just realized this, so yeah now you see I'm not just trying to mess with you.

I did some Google searching though, and I guess maces and flails are different. But then wouldn't a club be basically the same thing as a mace? Gahhh so confusing.

[Sandy]

Here's my suggestion: weapons that are usable by MAGES and their advanced classes may use their effects while spells are being used through them. It makes logical and RP sense, and solves the issue with the Book and the Cultist Staff.

Flipz already suggested this, and I did not approve. I don't want to mess with the weapon types any more than necessary. I don't want to have QMs guessing and trying to remember which weapons the rule exception applies, that just deems trouble.

I don't see why anyone thinks Spells are OP anyway. So what if we mages get to hit from the back row with an elemental effect and a weapon effect? So does literally any Ranger or Rogue with an imbued, special effect ranged weapon.

Mages can imbue elements into their weapons as well - you're not getting treated any differently on that respect. But spells are a different thing than physical attacks. The special effects don't apply to healing, either, and I don't think anyone has ever thought they would.

Of course, the ideal solution is that neither class gets nerfed and we continue playing the way all of us but Scubacarrot and Samdy have been.

You are out of line. You are free to disagree with me, but you are not free to ignore my rulings. If this is such a big deal to you that you can't accept it, you are free to leave the game.

There has not been a rule change, there has just been a misunderstanding about the rules. I could've hosted all the quests myself to avoid these sort of misunderstandings, but then this game would not be what it is today. I truly appreciate all the hard work that the QMs have been doing, and I take the blame for not making this issue clear in the first place, but I have now made a clarification and it stands.

The only issue in my eyes is the two weapons mentioned before. But since the QMs and the players are not approving any of my suggestions, I'm at a loss. If you don't meet me in the half way, these two troublesome items will be removed from the game. I don't think anyone really wants that, but I see little options...

I think the real issue is weapons that hit all enemies. It's only in those situations where mages channeling spells through weapons gets broken. Hybros' Bladerang is broken. He has a chance of killing every enemy in a battle each time he uses it. The whip thing Arthur is using now is only a nerfed version that could be used every round instead of having to be retrieved. I think the better solution, though JimB will probably kill me, is to either change these weapons or just never let more be created.

My point exactly. If I make some weapons an exception to my ruling, then I have a dozen players demanding that I exempt their weapons as well. The Bladerang and the Cat-o'-Nine-Tails will not be changed, and their effects do not affect spells either.

Sorry for being such a nazi about this, but it's getting out of hands. I'm still the manager of this game, and I carry all the responsibility for this game. That's why my word is the final one. If someone has issues with that, take it up to Dragonator.

[Brickdoctor]

The only issue in my eyes is the two weapons mentioned before. But since the QMs and the players are not approving any of my suggestions, I'm at a loss. If you don't meet me in the half way, these two troublesome items will be removed from the game. I don't think anyone really wants that, but I see little options...

As far as the Staff of the Cultist Battlemage is concerned, I don't mind whether it is kept as-is even after the rule clarification, or if it is split up into a weapon and an artifact. I'll leave the decision up to Flipz.

[Sandy]

On another note, cool items Scubacarrot. Though I do have one suggestion: why not just make the flail a mace (an already existing weapon that is underused). A flail can be the same thing as a mace, I think, and that makes more sense than a whip.

Flails fall better into the maces category, in my opinion as well.

The "morning star" (a flail/mace) is a prime example of the differences between maces, whips and clubs.

[Zepher]

Flipz already suggested this, and I did not approve. I don't want to mess with the weapon types any more than necessary. I don't want to have QMs guessing and trying to remember which weapons the rule exception applies, that just deems trouble.

ROGER THAT!!

I like Boomingham as a party leader, especially with a party like this. I've never really shown his "General" side, but before he joined Heroica, he really was a good one, I think, back in the Orcish Invasion, so it's fun to play that up and see what he does. It's also interesting to me that this quest I'm suddenly struck by the fact that many of the characters are a lot younger than him, and he's much more tired than they are. It's an interesting age gap in the group with Skrall, Boomingham and Rufindel as older and more tired characters, and Nyx, Atramor and Ellaria much more fiery and passionate. Aka when we said this party looked good, we were right.

[CMP]

It's an interesting age gap in the group with Skrall, Boomingham and Rufindel as older and more tired characters, and Nyx, Atramor and Ellaria much more fiery and passionate. Aka when we said this party looked good, we were right.

Yeah, it's only the first battle and I can tell the roleplaying this Quest's gonna be awesome. Both Boomingham and Ellaria are a lot more serious than I've seen so far.

[Scubacarrot]

Flails fall better into the maces category, in my opinion as well.

The "morning star" (a flail/mace) is a prime example of the differences between maces, whips and clubs.

Ok it is a Mace from now on. I seem to remember there was a chain weapons category, which I wanted it in, but it is hard to categorise something like this.

[Flipz]

The only issue in my eyes is the two weapons mentioned before. But since the QMs and the players are not approving any of my suggestions, I'm at a loss. If you don't meet me in the half way, these two troublesome items will be removed from the game. I don't think anyone really wants that, but I see little options...

I've been keeping out of this after a certain point because I was getting mad, and I decided to step out instead of saying something I'd later regret.

Could you give me a day or two to decide on the staff? It really screws with my strategy plans, so I need to figure out what's more important. (Using an artifact slot is kind of a major thing, which is part of what makes special weapons more appealing in the first place--I doubt it'll actually happen, but I'd really suggest revisiting the Artifact limit, especially given how the Artifact store changes their avialability and value.) In the meantime, I'd really appreciate suggestions--whether or not I should keep the staff as-is or split it, and if I decide to split it what kind of artifact it should be (body wear, back wear, hat, accessory, pants, etc.).

Also, do note that the balance comparison between Rangers with imbued weapons and Mages with gem spells IS a valid comparison. I don't know how this could be balanced (the Rangers certainly don't need to be nerfed), but it's something to keep in the back of your mind next time you're thinking about plans for the game.

Overly explanitory explanation:

Sure, it costs a Ranger 50 gold to imbue a weapon into their ranged weapon, but that's a one-time fee, and they do get more health than mages (particularly for Advanced classes), whereas Mages have a shot limit (Ether) AND have less Health to boot. To put it into numbers (Assume a Level 11 enemy whose special deals normal damage, affected by Row):

Level 6 Mage with Emerald and an Emerald-imbued "Staff of Knock-back" (WP:8, knock-back effect), spell, Back Row: Shield: 14 Wood-elemental damage to all foes, no knock-back; Great Spell: 22 Wood-elemental damage to target, no knock-back, -1 Ether; Spell: 14 Wood-elemental damage to target, no knock-back, -1 Ether; Miss: Nothing happens; Damage: takes 5 damage; Special Damage: takes 5 damage.

Level 6 Ranger with Emerald-imbued Heavy Crossbow (WP:8, knock-back effect), Back Row: Shield: 14 Wood-elemental damage to up to three foes, knock-back effect; Critical Hit: 22 Wood-elemental damage to target, knock-back effect; Hit: 14 Wood-elemental damage to target, knock-back effect; Aim: 8 Wood-elemental damage to target, knock-back effect; Damage: takes 5 damage; Special Damage: takes 5 damage.

Given this, clearly, the Mage is at a disadvantage; the Ranger deals and takes just as much damage, but does not have to expend Ether and also gains the knock-back effect on their attacks. If the Mage decides to attack physically, they gain the knock-back effect on attacks and no longer have to expend Ether, but has to choose between dealing half damage or risking getting KO'd in one hit. Even if the Ranger decided to go insane and attack from the Front Row, they'd still survive the hit. Keep in mind, this is a best-case scenario, in which the Ranger and Mage are equal aside from class. Realistically, Mages will generally have less Gold than Rangers, as they have to purchase both Potions and Tonics, which means the Rangers will generally have superior gear for the same level. Crossbows are also far more likely to have special powers than Mage-suitable weapons, especially after this clarification. Thus, Rangers are more likely to have special abilities than Mages, unless the Mage decides to invest in Scrolls--but now that Scrolls expend Ether on failures, they are MUCH less appealing, being expensive both to obtain AND to use (keep in mind, Ether restoration costs); besides, weren't you and several others complaining just a few days ago that there are too many different Scrolls already?

Again, I'm not at ALL saying that Rangers need to be nerfed, I'm pointing out that as it stands, Mages are currently inferior to Rangers in several ways, ways that can't really be corrected by mere artifacts or weapons. There's probably an obvious balance tweak staring me in the face, but I'm too tired to see it right now, and besides, you know the balancing reasoning behind the system as a whole, so you're in a better position to see the change the Mages need made. I'm not demanding changes "right now" or anything, just stick it on your to-do list, OK? Thanks.

[posades]

As far as number of artifacts being able to be equipped, how about 1 for basic classes/2 for advanced/3 for expert? That way it makes sense that the more "experienced" you are the more magical items you're able to equip.

[CMP]

Also, do note that the balance comparison between Rangers with imbued weapons and Mages with gem spells IS a valid comparison. I don't know how this could be balanced (the Rangers certainly don't need to be nerfed), but it's something to keep in the back of your mind next time you're thinking about plans for the game.

It's really not. Weapon imbuement is so clunky (not in a bad way, exactly) that it's really annoying to balance out elemental weapons to the point where they'll be useful for the right occasions. And you always need a backup weapon if you have one, or you'll be useless against several types of opponents. Mages don't need to imbue anything, generally get first priority when a party comes across a gem, and have their weapons separate from their gems. Think about it, and don't use such a specific situation to reinforce your point.

Mages can channel their gems through any weapon they wish, the gem isn't fused to the weapon. It's a pain to keep several weapons at their peak if you have them imbued. It took me a lot of calculations for a weapon element combination I could really put to use, not to mention several hundred gold. And now that I've come across better weapons, I'm going to have to pay just as much, if not more, to move them between weapons. It's not as easy as choosing a different gem and buying a few Tonics. And Rangers don't have access to Scrolls at all. It's not all numbers, there's a lot of other stuff to take into effect, and every class is going to be better than the other in some way. Mage's draw is powerful elemental attacks at the exchange of health. In most all circumstances, while Rangers do have more survivability, Mages do more damage.

It's all a different manner of playing the game, each class has their drawbacks and advantages, you can't just say one class is better than the other, no matter how many calculations are made. There are so many unknowns that sometimes are dependent on the hero, not the class.

[Myrddyn]

Perhaps (not that this has anything to do with me, but just an idea) the cultist staff and spell book could be split (as already suggested), but the new artefacts could be combined with artefacts Nyx and Arthur already have?

[Scubacarrot]

Right. Fighting this decision is only going to cause more annoyance than has already occured. So the Book of A Thousand Creatures is going to be changed into an Artifact (Accessory, every attack roll has a 1/6 chance to spawn a spider minion), and a WP:13 Melee weapon suitable for mages and clerics, which is a Staff.

I don't like this decision, but there you go.

[Pandora]

Right. Fighting this decision is only going to cause more annoyance than has already occured. So the Book of A Thousand Creatures is going to be changed into an Artifact (Accessory, every attack roll has a 1/6 chance to spawn a spider minion), and a WP:13 Melee weapon suitable for mages and clerics, which is a Staff.

I don't like this decision, but there you go.

It seems there's no further room for debate on this issue, so now may I ask that the book isn't split please?

If it becomes an accessory, I won't equip it, not with my current accessories. I will never see Edgar again. If it stays as it is, then I still have a 1/36 chance of summoning Edgar each round as I still have the physical element of my Shield. So it won't work for the magic hits, but will still work for the physical hits. It means the chances of summon have reduced yet further from 1/9 all the way down to 1/36 (and if that could be ameliorated, that would be nice, considering it's a massive difference) but the chance still remains.

Same with the Explosive Staff - it only works when I have a physical hit rather than a magical hit.

Would that at least be ok?

[Scubacarrot]

It seems there's no further room for debate on this issue, so now may I ask that the book isn't split please?

If it becomes an accessory, I won't equip it, not with my current accessories. I will never see Edgar again. If it stays as it is, then I still have a 1/36 chance of summoning Edgar each round as I still have the physical element of my Shield. So it won't work for the magic hits, but will still work for the physical hits. It means the chances of summon have reduced yet further from 1/9 all the way down to 1/36 (and if that could be ameliorated, that would be nice, considering it's a massive difference) but the chance still remains.

Same with the Explosive Staff - it only works when I have a physical hit rather than a magical hit.

Would that at least be ok?

Alright, I will add "on hit" in the item's description. Given that this item is actually changed now, I will change the odds from 1/6 to 1/3.

[Scorpiox]

No, Heroica did. If it wasn't for them, we would not be here.

Yet the Werewolf attacked first? I think Lycan has his priorities a little mixed up.

[Peppermint_M]

Ahem

Nerd On -

Tha Flail, or Morning Star, is a vastly different weapon to the Mace, not only in method in wielding but also in useage.

The mace was a weapon used to damage armour (The first weapon of a Knight was his ability to move around, damage an articulation point or impeded his movement in any way = dead man) and cause internal damage from a heavy hit. Because they did not actually cause external bleeding Priests would use them in battle. In fact priests developed the mace so they could fight. It could be blocked by a shield and had a job getting around to cause damage, it was for much closer combat.

The Flail on the other hand is a chain weapon, a heavy iron ball or balls on the end of about a foot or so of chain attatched to a handle. They were developed from a threshing implement. While it can be used in a simlar manner to a mace, the flexible length of chain would allow range over closer cambat. It could get behind a shield and even to more unarmoured areas of the body such over the back of an enemy. It would also catch and tangle on enemy weapons and shields, then you could disarm your opponent and take away the shield. On the other hand, you could get caught up in the enemy's weapon and be at disadvantage yourself. It took skill to weild as you could wallop yourself by accident (As many an aspiring Bruce Lee finds with a more oriental weapon). The Morningstar was a varietion, this time the iron balls had spikes up to an inch long to cause even more damage.

Maces and clubs are different: Clubs spread more area in the power of a hit, *(like drumming with the flat of your hand). A mace focused the force in the head, *(compare using drumsticks).

Nerd Off-

(Please note no online or offline encyclopedias were used during this entire post. I just know this stuff. Thou hast been warned Also I got to weild some of these IRL on Monday...)

[JimBee]

Thanks for clarifying, Peppermint! I looked on Google but a quick search was nothing compared to that.

[Scubacarrot]

Yeah, so:

Mace:

Flail:

Club

Edited August 29, 2012 by Scubacarrot

[Sandy]

So... should I add "flail" as a different weapon category, now?

Thanks for sharing your expert knowledge, Peppy!

Would that at least be ok?

Yes, you are free to keep your weapons as they are, just as long as their effects are not applied to your magic spells. It really sucks that few people have to "suffer" from this misunderstanding, but at least we can put this behind us. And I'll make sure this scenario won't happen again.

[TheBoyWonder]

Is it wrong I'm already planning for my second character (post50)? I've already got his weapon (Minus Diamond) and one of his artifacts.

[Tanma]

Is it wrong I'm already planning for my second character (post50)? I've already got his weapon (Minus Diamond) and one of his artifacts.

I don't think so, as I already have two flehed-out concepts for my second character planned. Both of the ideas depend on variables outside my power, so I also have a less detailed control as back-up. I haven't started building either possibility yet, but I am already working on mannerisms and backstory. Of course I tend to get ahead of myself in projects, as my habit of planning out sequels to unfinished stories proves.

Edit: sorry for not being as active, but I had nothing to contribute to the equipment conversation.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Tanma

[Scorpiox]

Is it wrong I'm already planning for my second character (post50)? I've already got his weapon (Minus Diamond) and one of his artifacts.

Of course not, just shows that you have remarkable foresight for these things.

But make sure that Lycan isn't sidelined by a character that won't even be around for a while, first character should be your first priority.

[Waterbrick Down]

Is it wrong I'm already planning for my second character (post50)? I've already got his weapon (Minus Diamond) and one of his artifacts.

It's not wrong, but you've got a while to go.

What are everyone's feelings though on collecting equipment for your second character with your first character? I've considered ideas for a second character but they will only be tied to Skrall storywise, all of their equipment and stuff they will have to find on their own or barter for from someone else after they arrive at the hall, basically starting from scratch as if my other character didn't exist.