I'll have you guys know, I followed Baltarok pretty close since one of my upcoming quests takes place in East Baltarok, so thank you for laying some solid foundation work for me to come muddle with later on. I'll have more thoughts up in a bit, but overall job well done to the QMs and the Heroes: it was fun to follow, and I was impressed all around.

Now that I can, I'm reading over #89 and #90 (plus re-reading #88!).

But for the moment, thanks all. Especially CMP & WBD, MDM, Pep & Flare, and Zeph.

  On 5/19/2014 at 2:51 AM, UsernameMDM said:

What's that supposed to mean?!

Let me put this another way: he's Jim from Darths and Droids, or Minmax from Goblins.

  On 5/19/2014 at 3:01 AM, CallMePie said:

I can't help but completely disagree with this. I feel like the three of us as QMs wanted to give as much important choice to the heroes as possible. Those choices affected everything that happened. I sure as hell did. I actually took inspiration from Quest 30 in this regard. If the Quest 89 party had failed any of the tasks assigned to them, the Quest wouldn't've ended. The clans would simply fractured. Succeeding in the political puzzle actually determined whether Karstaal would live or die of his wounds later. Choosing between Gor and Marga determined what kind of troops they sent to the final battle, but also would have dire ramifications for Baltarok in the future. Marga technically led the clan, but Gor was more agreeable. And it looks as though the heroes chose him, despite the difficult position it would put him and his allies in later. There was Mint/Hamilton, saving David or getting to the Nords, sparing or killing Bastala, and if they had tried the heroes of Quest 89 actually could've stopped Tarvalk from killing Speros. The fact that they didn't even try I feel lends credit to just how much Baltarok changed them. And then of course after the bridge battle they had to get the Kingdoms and orcs to agree to terms that prevented war. I loved how everyone was utterly sapped of hope at the beginning of that. Both sides were at least as embittered by that battle. But in the end, they managed to give peace between the orcs and Kingdoms a real chance, and that's thanks to the heroes. Maybe it wasn't as free-form as Dastan (though honestly I think you're thinking more in terms of Quest 31 alone rather than Dastan as a whole, in Quest 30 things were relatively straightforward), but I feel like the heroes had a more tangible impact. It was more difficult obviously because we were basically pitting the heroes against one another at certain points, but I feel the entire situation has more impact that way.

In fairness, I did say yours resonated most, and this is why; 89 was by far the most Dastan-like of this trilogy. (And truthfully, 30 was the most impactful of Dastan, because the choices made there mattered--with all respect to JimBee and Doc, the actual plot of Dastan came mostly from 30; if you wanted to explain Dastan to a total outsider, you'd probably tell the story of Quest 30 and then interject with how 31 and 29 affected it.)

Look at it this way (and again, I say this with all respect to the players and QMs of 88 and 90): how different would 89 specifically have been with the Heroes of 88 and 90 replaced by QM-controlled NPCs? From where I was sitting, not very. Q90 was a little more involved because, as pointed out, they set off the whole war, but for the most part they seemed pretty tangential to the main action--in that specific case it was obviously intentional, but I don't think 88 was intended to be unimportant to the happenings in the Orcish clans, which is what it ended up feeling like.

Part of that also ties into the less-hidden railroading 88 and 90 had; the circus had to break out Grishnod, they had to keep Grishnod out of Mint's hands, they had to help Grishnod win the trials and return Valentino to the Kingdoms. Anything else would have made no sense and destroyed the plot (I mean, the choices there were all framed to favor that one solution, and the times that Baradock challenged it he came off as and was treated like a madman or a stubborn fool going against the flow for the sake of going against it) because the alternative would be to ride the eagles into Mordor--logically, it would make sense, but at the same time would make for a much worse narrative. In that sense, the circus performers could have worked alone, the Nord raid on the Kingdoms could have been put down by superior military forces, and the Kingdoms and paladins would have marched off to war anyway. The only real effect Q90 and Q88 had on the Q89 party (or at least, the only one visible at all from my perspective) was that they chose to fight for the neutral option instead of just marching with the troops across the bridge into the Kingdoms.

Just my two cents, of course, and I do believe that ultimately the trilogy as it turned out is superior to what a solo 89 would have been...but I don't think it would have been as different as if, say, Quest 29 or 31 were taken out of the Dastan trilogy. I will say, in fairness, that Dastan was what it was, really, because of who went on it (can anyone actually imagine a Dastan without Atramor or Tarn or Nyx? didn't think so), and 88 in particular suffered there because there weren't really many "whos" on it to have that sort of personal effect.

Good work, QMs and players (some of them). The Baltarok trilogy was a great read. I really would've wished that, as Flipz said, we would've seen more of the way the people of the High Kingdoms would be affected, etc. At the end everyone, pretty much, would have sided with the orcs if it came down to an actual choice between the two which was a bit sad in my opinion. To a certain extent, I do think Quest #88 was the least involved in that if crazed orcish-blood hunting paladin (not to mention any names ) would have gone on it, it probably wouldn't have made too much of a difference to the whole story. I could be wrong though. It was really disappointing to see Hamilton die so quickly as he was just a great guy. I am a bit disappointed to have missed this trilogy after also having missed Dastan, but I think it turned out a lot better that Pretzel didn't go. Becoming a Paladin has really made Nerwen incredibly awesome for one.

PS: I really, really need to get on a WBD quest sometime.

I half-and-half followed the trilogy and for me, as an outsider with little knowledge or scope of the entire thing, I have to say that CMP's quest and WBD's quest seemed more interesting than Zepeher's. By no means I'm saying Zeph's quest was a bad one, not at all! But if I had to number them from most favorite to least favorite, that would be my list.

As has been said (by Flipz, I believe), I too, sometimes had difficulties keeping the Red Lizards from the Four Boulders. I didn't always understand the story, but perhaps that is because I wasn't actually in the quest so I probably missed a few things here and there . Also, but that's just a minor gripe of mine, not really a criticism: compared to the entire invented vocabulary, names, culture and general background that the Orcs had, the Kingdom of the Red Lizard and Kingdom of the Four Boulders seemed kind of bland to me . It doesn't detract from the intricateness of the overall story of the kingdoms, but I just didn't really like those names for kingdoms.

That being said, I really did enjoy reading the quests, even though I wasn't a participant. The roleplaying was great and the newer player definitely made a great debut.

I had a lot of fun in Quest 89, for the most part. I'm really happy that I got to be a part of the Baltarok Trilogy, and thank you CMP and also WBD and Zepher for hosting!

There were obviously some issues I had with the quest though. I think. I did not like the final battle at all, I though it's mechanics, the rows, the bridges, some of the enemy specials were just weird. Never put in an enemy that heals enemies to full health. Never put in an enemy that one-shots people pretty much always. I also was not really impressed with some people's refusal to cooperate to get it done quickly enough, but that's something else. It dragged on, and that's never a good sign for a battle.

That was just one battle though. I thought most battles were really good, especially the War Party battle comes to mind. The bird battle was obvious filler, but if you're dealing with three quests that have to connect at certain points, that's absolutely fine.

My other major issue with it was also near the ending, and that's how the side-choosing was handled. What did the choice of who to side with matter in the end? I'm not sure, most heroes chose to side with the orcs, yet there was a neutral victory. Even though some people might get screwed, I think it would have been excellent for the quest, to after that choice say: Right, Orcs vs. Kingdoms, final battle, go. Of course that's not the vision that the QMs had, but it was kind of annoying to see the choices made and things accomplished be diminished by that. Does that make any sense? What I'm saying is I would have liked to see something more conflicting between Heroes happen. I also did not understand why the bridge seemed so important (to keep standing) to everyone, in my reasoning, it would not be so. It seemed like an appearing choice with hidden railroad tracks to me, also as the neutral choice would be the best for all the heroes. Which is not a positive thing, in my opinion.

I liked the intersecting between quests. I'm sure 90 and 88 intersected at some point as well, but the intersections between us and 88 was in my opinion good for a strong start, and the coöperation with Quest 90 was very interesting also. Well done!

My fellow party members were mostly really cool and I'm very happy with them, the only part where I did not feel that way was at the diplomacy with the mistakes there, but things happen, and I made a lot of mistakes myself also, and I'm sure they'll get pointed out, so. Thanks for putting up with me, guys. The interactions were really good, and I'm glad that Guts got to meet some of the other heroes for the first time.

I really liked the pictures you had for your quest 89, we got to meet a lot of interesting characters, with my favorites including Gor and Tarvalk. There was a lot of mystery involved which will maybe be expanded upon, who exactly is Rook? What is the Crimson Crown's stake in all this. Very, very cool. Quest 89 was a very good quest.

Edited May 19, 201410 yr by Scubacarrot

  On 5/19/2014 at 10:13 AM, Scubacarrot said:

My other major issue with it was also near the ending, and that's how the side-choosing was handled. What did the choice of who to side with matter in the end? I'm not sure, most heroes chose to side with the orcs, yet there was a neutral victory. Even though some people might get screwed, I think it would have been excellent for the quest, to after that choice say: Right, Orcs vs. Kingdoms, final battle, go. Of course that's not the vision that the QMs had, but it was kind of annoying to see the choices made and things accomplished be diminished by that. Does that make any sense? What I'm saying is I would have liked to see something more conflicting between Heroes happen. I also did not understand why the bridge seemed so important (to keep standing) to everyone, in my reasoning, it would not be so. It seemed like an appearing choice with hidden railroad tracks to me, also as the neutral choice would be the best for all the heroes. Which is not a positive thing, in my opinion.

That was for if one of the sides succeeded. The heroes never really got pushed back so it never came into play. The problem is that PvP mechanics are bad. Really really bad. Throwing them into the already convoluted mechanics of the bridge battle would've been a disaster. When push came to shove, I realized none of you guys were above killing eachother to get the victory you wanted faster. So I kind of had to dissuade that.

  On 5/19/2014 at 10:13 AM, Scubacarrot said:

I really liked the pictures you had for your quest 89, we got to meet a lot of interesting characters, with my favorites including Gor and Tarvalk. There was a lot of mystery involved which will maybe be expanded upon, who exactly is Rook? What is the Crimson Crown's stake in all this. Very, very cool. Quest 89 was a very good quest.

Crimson Crown has their hands in everyone's pie, but their motives will probably become more clear in a future quest.

  On 5/19/2014 at 6:02 AM, Flipz said:

Part of that also ties into the less-hidden railroading 88 and 90 had; the circus had to break out Grishnod, they had to keep Grishnod out of Mint's hands, they had to help Grishnod win the trials and return Valentino to the Kingdoms. Anything else would have made no sense and destroyed the plot (I mean, the choices there were all framed to favor that one solution, and the times that Baradock challenged it he came off as and was treated like a madman or a stubborn fool going against the flow for the sake of going against it) because the alternative would be to ride the eagles into Mordor--logically, it would make sense, but at the same time would make for a much worse narrative. In that sense, the circus performers could have worked alone, the Nord raid on the Kingdoms could have been put down by superior military forces, and the Kingdoms and paladins would have marched off to war anyway. The only real effect Q90 and Q88 had on the Q89 party (or at least, the only one visible at all from my perspective) was that they chose to fight for the neutral option instead of just marching with the troops across the bridge into the Kingdoms.

It should be noted that the railroading in 90 was not required, yes the situations were framed to favor one solution, but I for one am absolutely against the concept of slapping a player on the wrist because they are not following "my" predetermined story-line. If the heroes had chosen to not help the circus out, then Grishnod would still be in prison, the quest would have failed but that would be the heroes choice. If they had decided to let Mint take Grishnod, they'd have to figure out some other way of getting Valentino. I hate railroading for the most part, it's a necessary evil in some instances due to the limit of our medium, but I try to avoid it when-ever I can.

  On 5/19/2014 at 10:13 AM, Scubacarrot said:

My other major issue with it was also near the ending, and that's how the side-choosing was handled. What did the choice of who to side with matter in the end? I'm not sure, most heroes chose to side with the orcs, yet there was a neutral victory. Even though some people might get screwed, I think it would have been excellent for the quest, to after that choice say: Right, Orcs vs. Kingdoms, final battle, go. Of course that's not the vision that the QMs had, but it was kind of annoying to see the choices made and things accomplished be diminished by that. Does that make any sense? What I'm saying is I would have liked to see something more conflicting between Heroes happen. I also did not understand why the bridge seemed so important (to keep standing) to everyone, in my reasoning, it would not be so. It seemed like an appearing choice with hidden railroad tracks to me, also as the neutral choice would be the best for all the heroes. Which is not a positive thing, in my opinion.

Thanks for the input. As CMP mentioned, PvP is broken so we had to come up with a way for each of you to move toward your appropriate goals without getting into combat with each other. I'll admit I wasn't prepared for allowing everyone a choice of whom to side with. Originally I believed it was only going to be for the Circus since they were sort of the neutral party in all of this, but everyone was offered the choice and we ended up where we ended up.

  On 5/19/2014 at 6:02 AM, Flipz said:

Let me put this another way: he's Jim from Darths and Droids, or Minmax from Goblins.

Pot, meet kettle.

But seriously, what player does not try to maximize the utility of their build? If Hoke wasn't such a tank, I am not sure how that bridge battle would have ended.

To begin: thanks very much for choosing Haldor to take part. I've been thinking of taking a break for some time now, and I'm glad that I was able to retire him on a quest as compelling as this one. I'd like to particularly thank CallMePie for writing Haldor such a good send-off and for masterminding the execution.

I actually really liked the diplomacy minigame - as an idea it has great potential but I think it didn't quite turn out as well as planned for a few reasons. I for one tried to play it as I believe you intended, with heroes having to discern the allegiances of the characters through conversation and discussion, and only guessing the identity once I genuinely thought I knew it, as with Bastala. Unfortunately, it seemed to turn into a case of 'guess everything' to the point of dispensing with the talking, owing to the hell of a load of heroes with diplomacy, and it somewhat lost its charm.

The bridge battle seemed to be a sound concept, but unfortunately I felt that the mechanics were never definitively clarified and that made it more frustrating.

  On 5/19/2014 at 10:13 AM, Scubacarrot said:

My fellow party members were mostly really cool and I'm very happy with them, the only part where I did not feel that way was at the diplomacy with the mistakes there, but things happen.

Unfortunately I also got the idea at points that some players weren't really paying attention or interested, especially during that game.

  On 5/19/2014 at 2:05 PM, UsernameMDM said:

But seriously, what player does not try to maximize the utility of their build? If Hoke wasn't such a tank, I am not sure how that bridge battle would have ended.

To be honest I just slap the best artefacts that I have on Haldor and call it a day.

  On 5/19/2014 at 3:01 PM, Scorpiox said:

To be honest I just slap the best artefacts that I have on Haldor and call it a day.

I don't do anything different to Hoke really. He could be better with Vintul, the greatsword, but I was trying to boost the entire party with the Flagpole.

It's interesting that you thought PvP was broken; although I think the 10x damage divisor was a bit much, I definitely liked everything else about it. Do some specific testing with different divisors (3-5 seems to be within the right range) and it'd be just fine.

So was there a Choose Your Own Adventure style decision tree/flow chart or did y'all QMs just make it up as we went?

  On 5/19/2014 at 4:21 PM, UsernameMDM said:

So was there a Choose Your Own Adventure style decision tree/flow chart or did y'all QMs just make it up as we went?

We had a rough outline since we had to account for the intersecting of the different quests and while I can't speak for the other QM's, apart from that outline I tried to be open to whatever the players tried and go on the fly.

Edited May 19, 201410 yr by Waterbrick Down

I think Dyric's final thoughts reflect mine - this quest definitely had its ups and downs, but in the end was very good. I admit I came in expecting another Dastan, with all it's convoluted twists and turns. I was a bit surprised when this quest was more streamlined, but I think it was for the best. My only real complaint in the whole of the quest was that it really slowed down towards the middle, but not knowing what speeds the other quests where at it's possible this was a necessity.

There's been a lot of talk of the Diplomacy, and to be perfectly honest it was something I rather enjoyed. As has been said, it was a great concept that wound up falling flat. Still, I enjoyed talking to Garohn and Haldor's conversation with Bastala was great as well.

The final battle was a bit confusing, I'll admit. Again, I think the concept was interesting but the end result could have been better. Still, it's interesting to see where this will go in the future.

I believe Flipz mentioned the diveresty of 89's party, and I think that was my favorite aspect of this. It was really interesting playing a more 'true good' character among characters like Guts and the situation we were in. For a moment, I was thinking some real conflict may come out of it.

I'll have more to say when I go and read the other quests, but all in all this was a lot of fun, thanks for letting me take part in shaping Baltarok!

So, if it doesn't interfere with future quests, can we get a breakdown of the real goals of the NPCs?

  On 5/19/2014 at 3:01 PM, Scorpiox said:

To begin: thanks very much for choosing Haldor to take part. I've been thinking of taking a break for some time now, and I'm glad that I was able to retire him on a quest as compelling as this one. I'd like to particularly thank CallMePie for writing Haldor such a good send-off and for masterminding the execution.

I think it suits him, honestly. His relationship with Bastala was really interesting to write for, and it really fit that he stayed behind to help her out.

  On 5/19/2014 at 4:50 PM, The Legonater said:

I think Dyric's final thoughts reflect mine - this quest definitely had its ups and downs, but in the end was very good. I admit I came in expecting another Dastan, with all it's convoluted twists and turns. I was a bit surprised when this quest was more streamlined, but I think it was for the best. My only real complaint in the whole of the quest was that it really slowed down towards the middle, but not knowing what speeds the other quests where at it's possible this was a necessity.

I believe Flipz mentioned the diveresty of 89's party, and I think that was my favorite aspect of this. It was really interesting playing a more 'true good' character among characters like Guts and the situation we were in. For a moment, I was thinking some real conflict may come out of it.

Quest 88 had most of the twists in this trilogy. Orcs don't have time for all those politics. They yell at eachother and call it a day. The middle did slow down a bit. The bird filler was a bit longer than I expected, but I fully anticipated the battle with Gor would take some time. And then we had to get things synchronized with Quest 90. I felt things picked up during Imaestym though, which was really the intention, to speed things up and keep the action moving into the final battle.

This party turned out even better than I suspected. Guts was Guts, and I'm glad we got to see more of Thormanil's character. Dyric was of course the stabilizing element, while Haldor seemed to have the best grasp of what the party needed to do and how to get there. I loved seeing your interactions with eachother and the NPCs. :thumbup:

I read all three Baltarok quests. My favourite by far was 89, followed by 90 and 88 in that order. I liked them on the whole.

  On 5/19/2014 at 1:57 PM, Waterbrick Down said:

...but I for one am absolutely against the concept of slapping a player on the wrist because they are not following "my" predetermined story-line. If the heroes had chosen to not help the circus out, then Grishnod would still be in prison, the quest would have failed... but that would be the heroes choice. If they had decided to let Mint take

It's more of a bend you over backwards spank you with a molten hot rod kind of thing, then?

TL:DR

+ Cool Characters - Lacking Finale

+ Crafty Encounters -Balancing issues

+ Creative Rewards

4/5 Corndogs-Would play again and Thanks for taking me along!

But I digress, lets talk about the quest. (If I don't mention it here it's most likely a positive! )

Specifically Quest 90

1. Enemy Balance

Baradock fell on his face. Alot. I'm talkin' bout being K.O.'d in a bunch of fights! And when I was up I didn't feel like I was contributing much anyway. The more experienced heroes could make the enemies look like my favorite type of cheese without me. Swiss! Still there were some that I REALLY enjoyed. Being the tentacle fight and the battle at the garrison. So + + There

2. When Proposed with a Decision

I'd like it if they were both viable in their own right. Personally I made Baradock go opposite of the main course of action because he's a hipster it fit his character and I was just overall curious. Curiosity almost killed the cat in this case. And why would you want to kill cats?

Now with the Baltarok Trilogy as a whole

1. Gotta go fast!

I felt at many places there was a rush to sync up with the other quests, and vice versa. I know it couldn't be helped with different levels of activity going on in each quest but it was still an issue for me.

2. No connection between Quests

Wait wait, I know I know. The quests did intersect together. But! I feel it'd be neat if there was a way to feel connected when we weren't face to face with the other party. As if something one party did affected another's story telling.

3. That bridge battle though.

I don't have much to say on the mechanics of the battle, seeing as how Baradock was knocked out for the most of it and cowering in fear folding a paper swan for the rest! (Hooray for poo-sticks) The lack of a back row was harsh too. And most notably, it felt it dragged out. I know it's hard to get it going when people aren't posting in every 24-hours...guilty...but- It was a finale so I suppose it's okay!

Overall it was a good experience to have under my belt and I will be using things I picked up from you guys for when I host a quest! WBD,CMP, and Zepher. Ya did good.

Edited May 20, 201410 yr by Cryos

Quest 88 is under fire, and so I figure I'll explain some of my thoughts! I don't think that most of what's been said about it is unfair, either! It was a very different quest than what I usually run, for sure.

  On 5/19/2014 at 1:31 AM, Flipz said:

Regarding the overall storyline: I do feel that the circus and orc storylines resonated quite a bit more than the Kingdoms one, which ultimately made the Kingdoms heroes seem like huge dicks for opposing the orcs at the bridge; part of that, of course, is the miniscule size and participation of the Kingdoms party, but mostly it just came down to the cast of characters. Once Hamilton was sent off, there was literally no one on the Kingdoms side who was even remotely likeable until Valentino showed up, and even he was useless in the Mallelio sense of "nice enough, but completely useless to the heroes"; they all came off as "generic stuck-up megablocks-hat". The Orcs, meanwhile, while not always helpful or even aligned with the party, were at least interesting to watch, and even when you disagreed with them (i.e. wanting to raze the Kingdoms), you sympathized with their plight. I do feel the stakes would have been higher if the Kingdoms heroes had gotten to see or hear about some of the common people who would suffer either way (the way we did in Dastan) rather than only seeing the generals and kings and lord-high-muckety-mucks. I also got confused a lot between the Red Lizards and the Four Boulders, which made the plotline there hard to follow.

I'm sad you didn't like King Speros - he was harsh, but I think he was a good enough guy. I actually liked Hamilton least of all the characters.

Are Raguel/David/Belvin a-holes? Yes, probably. But so are lots of real people. I have done a whole slew of "quirky" characters. I didn't feel that this quest lent itself to those. I purposely had them be harsher and low key. It may not be as much "fun" but I think it was a more honest portrayal of the way wars sometimes go.

No common people. Screw them. They weren't important to any of the characters the heroes met. Sorry, that's the rough facts.

As for the confusion between Red Lizard/Four Boulder - I'm not unhappy that there was trouble for outsiders discerning the two. Being thrown into a complex political situation should do that to you. And Hoke, Nerwen and Benji all exhibited that they DID understand the distinction, which was all that really matters.

  Quote

Loot-wise, though I think I like the stuff Zeph gave his Paladins the best; I absolutely know that whoever got that "hits on Meditate" sword can sell it to Boomers for big bucks, he's been complaining about Paladins' hit ratios for ages.

I make it a point to never buy anything that I drop as loot. I think that's unfair.

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Comparing to Dastan:

1.) The Heroes seemed to have little to no effect on the world, outside of uniting Baltarok; the Kingdoms and the Nords could care less whether or not Heroes were there. For the majority of the Quest it felt like the Q88 Heroes could have stayed home and Q89 and Q90 would have been unaffected aside from a few minor details. Additionally, it didn't really feel like the three Quests affected each other outside of the designated "interaction zones"; in Dastan, you had Sir Lyons popping up for the Quest 30 Heroes, you had Q31 chasing cultists, you had Wren taunting 31, and of course Emeraldo's betrayal which affected everyone involved. In Dastan, you were constantly hearing about things going on prompted by things the other Heroes were doing; it made the place feel alive and active, like what you said and did mattered beyond just then and there. In Baltarok, the immense separation and isolation prevented this, and as a result it felt a lot more like three separate Quests that happened to take place in the same time and place; while I'd love to see more crossovers like that (i.e. if another Quest set out and passed through Bric'lin the Heroes of that Quest could cameo with those of 101 without really affecting anything), it felt like exactly that: a crossover, not a trilogy.

I think you may have been expecting another Dastan, whereas we took pains to make it markedly different. We meant for the heroes to be more isolated and to have less cross-over: it made that final battle so much more worth while. They weren't a team at all, this time around. There was no common goal, and they really were coming from different regions, only brought together through a clash instead of teamwork.

As for the complaint that they didn't really "do anything" - yes. I agree. I structured the quest that way. I don't think that five heroes should be able to step in and diffuse 250 years of political and racial tension. It makes for a more depressing and hopeless feeling throughout the quest, sure, but that wasn't the goal. They kept the bridge up. If they hadn't been there, it probably would be down now.

  On 5/19/2014 at 6:02 AM, Flipz said:

Look at it this way (and again, I say this with all respect to the players and QMs of 88 and 90): how different would 89 specifically have been with the Heroes of 88 and 90 replaced by QM-controlled NPCs? From where I was sitting, not very. Q90 was a little more involved because, as pointed out, they set off the whole war, but for the most part they seemed pretty tangential to the main action--in that specific case it was obviously intentional, but I don't think 88 was intended to be unimportant to the happenings in the Orcish clans, which is what it ended up feeling like.

I'm sorry, but this is just a ludicrous way to look at the trilogy. We all had to act as if the other group was a group of NPCs who would do what we want. That's just the way these quests work. We build choices in, but we have to hope to God that the heroes will do them, or else this trilogy would be us making it up on the fly, and that's simply not an option with this many players/QMs. What the Orcs did had no effect on my story, and vice-versa. That's just how it had to happen.

I know you think that it's possible to have a quest with infinite options, but we have yet to see it, and while you develop it the rest of us have to rail-road a little.

So to answer your question: nothing that 88 did affected 89 or 90, nothing that 89 did affected 88 or 90, and then the same goes for 90. We are willing to improvise, but not that much.

  Quote

In that sense, the circus performers could have worked alone, the Nord raid on the Kingdoms could have been put down by superior military forces, and the Kingdoms and paladins would have marched off to war anyway. The only real effect Q90 and Q88 had on the Q89 party (or at least, the only one visible at all from my perspective) was that they chose to fight for the neutral option instead of just marching with the troops across the bridge into the Kingdoms.

The Circus Performers could have worked alone, sure, but so could the army of Dastan. In theory, all these quests could be resolved by other people. And again, just because you saw something doesn't mean that it was pre-determined to happen. There is a version of the final battle where Raguel and David weren't even present. Actually, there were TWO versions of the final battle where they weren't present.

I also still don't understand what you're talking about with 88 and 90's affect on 89. What effect did you perceive 89 having on the other two?

  On 5/19/2014 at 8:24 AM, Khorne said:

As has been said (by Flipz, I believe), I too, sometimes had difficulties keeping the Red Lizards from the Four Boulders. I didn't always understand the story, but perhaps that is because I wasn't actually in the quest so I probably missed a few things here and there . Also, but that's just a minor gripe of mine, not really a criticism: compared to the entire invented vocabulary, names, culture and general background that the Orcs had, the Kingdom of the Red Lizard and Kingdom of the Four Boulders seemed kind of bland to me . It doesn't detract from the intricateness of the overall story of the kingdoms, but I just didn't really like those names for kingdoms.

As I said to Flipz, I'm okay with that. They Kingdoms are probably a more bland land than Baltarok, and outside confusion is fine since the people in the quest knew what was happening.

  On 5/19/2014 at 10:13 AM, Scubacarrot said:

There were obviously some issues I had with the quest though. I think. I did not like the final battle at all, I though it's mechanics, the rows, the bridges, some of the enemy specials were just weird. Never put in an enemy that heals enemies to full health. Never put in an enemy that one-shots people pretty much always. I also was not really impressed with some people's refusal to cooperate to get it done quickly enough, but that's something else. It dragged on, and that's never a good sign for a battle.

Full health will never happen again! We all have to learn sometimes. One shots were also totally my fault - I should have made Raguel targetable (his specials, as I noted, actually rely on it, and don't make sense with him being untargetable, but that was my mistake).

  On 5/19/2014 at 4:15 PM, Flipz said:

It's interesting that you thought PvP was broken; although I think the 10x damage divisor was a bit much, I definitely liked everything else about it. Do some specific testing with different divisors (3-5 seems to be within the right range) and it'd be just fine.

I did run tests. On ravages, Guts deals over 300 damage. With a 3 point divider, that's 100 damage to every hero. That's pretty tough, especially since we were balancing for such a wide range of levels.

I think that 8 actually works best (I tried 2, 3, 5, 8, and 10) but it was harder to remember.

Hopefully that sheds some light! Character analysis will come soon!

How does Guts deal 300 damage to Heroes? Players are basically Ancient-type and thus are not weak to Darkness--I'm getting 190, which when divided by 5 comes out to 38 damage. (And yes, I get that Guts and Lifestealer inherently imbalance everything and therefore skew the numbers--though it should be noted that the divisor to weapon damage essentially becomes a multiplier to SP, so Hoke had what was effectively SP:300 against other Heroes. Even Nerwen and Tensi came out with SP:140-SP:160.) 1/3 might indeed be a bit low, but I think in a normal scenario 1/5 would be just right.

Could we trouble you for some character/player analysis, CallMePie?

  On 5/20/2014 at 3:03 PM, Scorpiox said:

Could we trouble you for some character/player analysis, CallMePie?

Sure thing.

Scuba/Guts

I was really, really happy with how the situation affected Guts. It was interesting to see how Baltarok utterly broke him at one point, and even though he recovered quickly, clearly it changed him, as it seems to have with many of the heroes. He was a good party leader, unless there was another one in the party, in which case I'm surprised PvP never took place. He took the typical Guts approach to most of the problems thrown at him, going for the simplest, most straightforward solutions most of the time, whereas Dyric and Haldor seemed far more concerned with the consequences of their actions. I really liked his interactions with Tarvalk. Angry bald guys with no time for any crap get along well, it seems. You were easily the most active player, and really help keep the quest moving.

Legonator/Dyric

I was intrigued to see how Dyric would take working against the Kingdoms, and he seemed pretty disturbed near the end when he had to actually take up arms against his fellows, but the fact that he went through it shows his obvious determination towards completing his goals. He was really a stabilizing element to the party. He had a good grasp of the two sides' relationship, even though he seemed to keep his distance from aligning himself too closely with the orcs' cause. It was interesting to see him somewhat conflicted like this.

Scorpiox/Haldor

Haldor easily had some of the best character interaction in the Quest. I already brought up his awesome conversations with Bastala, and he really let his heart drive most of his actions, which is consistent with what we've seen previously in the Wren Quests, but I feel like he really start shouldering the problems of the orcs on his own, and of course his drive to be responsible for what happened there as a result of their actions led to his staying there, which I feel was a really good way to put him on hiatus. He would always go out of his way to try and do the right thing even while Guts kept rolling on doing the practical thing, which I thought was pretty interesting.

Swils/Thormanil

You remind me a lot of JimB. You just have this insane grasp on how Quests work and how things are going to pan out. And you haven't hosted one yet. Your relative inactivity in the middle didn't bother me all that much. When Thormanil spoke he either had a pretty hilarious observation to make or complex battle strategy to explain. I'd really like to see you characterize Arx some more and delve into their relationship further, I feel like he got some good experience early on and I'd like to see that developed further. Thormanil himself is more interesting than I think most people give him credit for. I haven't forgotten his last stand at the end of Quest 35. He's a pretty likeable and amiable character, but when it comes down to the decisions that matter....he's a somewhat disturbingly callous about peoples' lives. It feels like an inverse on a lot of characters. I find it pretty cool.

CJP/Alexandre

Alexandre is pretty likable for a Black Knight. He might need to brush him on his diplomacy, but he knows what he's fighting for and how to get there. I feel like you were a little inactive and he didn't weigh in on some of the bigger decisions, but he's generally an even-keel character anyway. He's a good ally to have, but doesn't seem to take the lead as often as he could. Making his voice heard louder and more often would be constructive to his character.

Masked/Alexis

I was pretty disappointed in your activity to be honest. At first it seemed like you were making a comeback from that enormous trip to the Fields, but she didn't end up doing all that much over the course of the Quest. I though she did a good job in the diplomacy minigame - despite the mistakes I thought the interactions themselves were interesting, which honestly I value more anyway. She is also a complete powerhouse when it comes to combat.

A few quick thoughts on the Baltorok Trilogy:

First of all, very nice job on the part of all three QMs. I followed all three quests to some degree (I waited until right before the final battle to read 90), and they all seemed to run smoothly together. Coming from a QM of the Dastan Trilogy, I know that is extremely difficult to do and sync up all of the quests. There might have been some filler here and there, but for the most part I was really impressed. Another thing I'd like to congratulate you on is an interesting and cohesive story - and it made much more sense and felt more thought out than the Dastan Trilogy IMO.

I did have a hard time following the plot at times, especially with all of the names. I felt that a lot of the NPCs were unnecessary, like the blind elder orc and the Crimson Crown guy who seemed to play a big part at the beginning of 89, but really had no significance at all in the end. Most NPCs were pretty unique though, and fun to have (in all three quests).

This was discussed at great length in the Discussion thread already, but I'd just like to emphasize that I, too, was extremely disappointed in the lack of activity in these quests. This goes across the board: Peppermint M and Sisco in 88, Masked Builder in 89, and Costy in 90. I really felt bad for the QMs and this is something that should not be acceptable at all in this game.

That being said, I did really like the character development of those who put time and effort into the quests and played them. Haldor was easily the most interesting (not just because he's gone now, but I liked reading his dialog throughout), and other notable examples include Hoke, Alexander, Dyric, Purpearl and nstickney. I wasn't really sure what to make of the changes for Guts and Nerwen, but I enjoyed reading those posts too.

My turn.

Darkdragon/Cinna:

Great to have you along, you weren't the most involved in the quest, but you fulfilled your party leader responsibilities admirably enough. My perception is that Cinna prefers to stay low key and have all the information necessary before making a decision. She's the rock that the rest of the heroes are tied to, slowly but surely moving toward her goals. Compassionate but at the same time practical, she's got quite the equipment set and I could really see her becoming quite the power house with a few adjustments and upgrades. I would have like to see a little more dialog from you, Darkdragon, especially seeing some of your stuff from your earlier quests, but I realize this was one of your first quests after a little hiatus, so I was glad to have you anyways.

Vash the Stampeed/Dreyrugr:

One of the things I wanted when selecting a party for this quest was variety. Dreyrugr the vampiric black knight fit the bill. You had some key conversations with Boris and Grishnod and along with Cinna, you provided the back bone of the party as far as making the best decision went. As with Cinna, I would have like to see a little more interaction but I've noted that Dreyrugr takes after the strong & silent type. Your bit of hiding and sneaking in the Nord's outpost was excellent and I'd encourage you to keep up that free-form style of thinking. Would love to host you again at some point and figure out the buttons to push to get him passionate about something.

Costy/Nagure:

Was a little disappointed that you dropped out with no warning, I really liked some of your characterization in Nagure's previous quests and hoped he'd get along well with Mirona and the rest of the circus. The stuff you did contribute was a little sparse, but I expect it was due to the amount of time you had available. Hope you can join us again at some point.

Cryos/Baradock:

There's always one that goes against the grain. Not that it's a bad thing, or that Baradock was ever in the wrong, he likes forging his own path that's all. Having actually quested with Baradock, I can say you portrayed him consistently. He's a man with deep thoughts even though he may never voice them. Baltarok definitely took a tole on his worldview, things were never black and white, people lied, people cheated, and in the end it seemed like the heroes didn't have that much of an impact (though they did on the grand scheme of things). Your interactions with Matthias, Mirona, and Mint were excellent and really character defining. I wan't expecting him to actually be the only one to side with Mint, but in a way I'm glad he did as compromising would have compromised his characterization I feel. If I understand correctly you'll be starting a new character, perfectly acceptable and I know that you'll do a great job with it. Glad I was able to host Baradock at least once and I look forward to seeing you host as well as your new character.

Purpearl/Purpearl:

Purpearl is a marvelous character, she reminds me of Nerwen but an almost younger and more compulsive/stuck up version. No real criticisms, you do a good job of finding the balance between saying too little and saying too much (a difficult line to walk). Her interactions with Nelvin are some of my favorites and while I hoped each of the PC's would be able to connect with an NPC, you took the cake and it allowed me to write for Nelvin naturally as opposed to forced dialog or talking points. Your conversations with the other PC's, especially with Guts, are some of the best in the entire trilogy as far as PC to PC interactions go (probably behind Nerwen and Guts, but this was only your second quest so ). As a player you do a great job of incorporating role-play into your battle actions as well as your puzzle solving without making it seem forced, so keep that up. All in all, as one of the weakest heroes you did an excellent job of making an impact with what you could work with and I'd gladly host or quest with you again.

nstickney/Matthias:

Where to begin? As soon as Matthias entered the hall I wanted to take him along, his characterization and dialog are top-notch for a new hero and your willingness to contribute to the world of Heroica in the hall through interactions before even being selected for a quest were quite appealing. Matthias is a great example of a hero just starting to become heroic. He's similar to Grimwald (Lordofthenoobs) in that he comes from humble origins and is slowly and realistically finding out how to function in this new world of dragon slaying demigods. I felt he really made a connection with Glup, which made it that much easier to write for her. Matthias is another great example of good writing in that he always seems to say just the right amount of words, never too much and never too few. Though not as talkative as Purpearl he definitely makes himself more approachable which is a great quality to have for interacting both with PC's and NPC's. One of his defining moments was during the last battle when he finally took a stand against being a meat-shield, suddenly this tiny gnome who had been pushed around and just doing what he was told was finally asserting himself and it was a great thing to watch. I'd really like to host you again in the future even though you are starting to assemble a build that will make a few QM's shake their heads when trying to balance for you.