Heroica RPG - Quest Masters' Lounge

[Brickdoctor]

Thanks, guys; it's good to see a positive reaction to the battle mechanic. I personally think XCOM: EU has an excellent squad tactics battle system that's already very similar in timing and action usage to the Heroica system.

if anything I think it wasn't complex enough. I enjoyed the whole idea of Atramor pulling down the statue, and this system would be really cool if there was more opportunity for that.

Ever since Quest 4 and more explicitly in Quest 17, though, I've said that you have to think of these things yourself. I'm just going to add items and features to the locations that I think are realistic, not because I have any particular clever usage for them in mind. For example, you could've tried to use the torch you picked up to light your arrows on fire and deal Fire-elemental Damage, which would be an additional *2 modifier whenever it succeeded. You could've thrown the torch down the tunnel in front of you to illuminate that area where I wasn't letting you see further than the tile right in front of you. Things like that. But I didn't include torches in the map because I was intending for you to do that; I just added them because that's how the Pogs would've lit their rooms. This is also why, whenever you picked up something that wasn't a Heroica consumable or item, I didn't give you any stats for it, and I just added it to your inventory as 'Torch' or 'Rope'.

I added the statue to the map because I liked how it broke up the monotonous look of the setting. I never thought anyone would try to pull it down with the rope; the rope was there because I figured the Pogs would need a way to get heavy things down that ladder and shaft leading to the lower tunnels. There was plenty of opportunity for all of you to get creative, but it was up to you to think of doing it, as Pie did.

One thing I did miss was to have the enemies' locations listed next to them, but the colour coding did work pretty well too.

The color-coding was unique, and it worked well.

I was initially going to use letters, but switched to colors at the last minute because the letters were cluttering up the map too much and making it hard to see things such as blocked tiles, cover, and items. I didn't want to indicate the position in the stats because I didn't want you to have to scroll up and down checking to see which Pog was where, and I didn't want to cause any confusion if one Pog moved out of a tile in the same Round that another Pog moved into that same tile.

I enjoyed the quest. It was fun, short, and battle-focused, and I loved all the X-COM callouts.

Yes, I think I want to go back through the quest and write up a commentary post with links to all the intentional references I made.

The story was super minimal and I kind of question the inclusion of the other characters in the first place. They never really did anything until one of them got killed.

For the most part, yes, the NPCs and their objective were just a vehicle to set up the quest and its battle system. I wanted to do a more straightforward battle-focused quest, and I thought it would make things too cumbersome if the NPCs were in the battles with you, so I thought this would be a good opportunity to make some minor advancements in my characters' storylines to continue the transition from my first three quests to any future quests I may host (And in particular, I wanted to kill off a more meaningful character, since I hadn't done that yet.).

[JimBee]

I liked following 112. It was a refreshing back-to-basics kind of quest with no twists or turns. Not to say that those aren't welcome from time to time but it's also nice to have a quick and straightforward quest. My only gripe is that the enemies were too easy, and the system often worked against them rather than for them. Out of range? Whelp, that's one useless enemy. IMO you should've had more ranged units or ways to get around the limitation that you put in the quest, or just not had it at all. Also remember when you're dealing with four of the most powerful heroes on your quest. Three buffed up, low-health enemies as a boss fight aren't going to stop those guys, unfortunately. I'm not very creative when it comes to designing battles, but I would suggest more passive and support abilities spread among a larger number of enemies, not just a few powerful ones.

One other thing I wanted to add is that the names for Brickdoctor loot are the best! The descriptions are cool as well. I've though about renaming the Sword of Ancestral Hatred, but there's just no way I could top it (also cool to see it's cousin, the Sword of Ancestral Benevolence, on this quest). The descriptions for unique loot are also neat!

[Brickdoctor]

My only gripe is that the enemies were too easy, and the system often worked against them rather than for them. Out of range? Whelp, that's one useless enemy. IMO you should've had more ranged units or ways to get around the limitation that you put in the quest, or just not had it at all. Also remember when you're dealing with four of the most powerful heroes on your quest. Three buffed up, low-health enemies as a boss fight aren't going to stop those guys, unfortunately.

Yeah, I was worried that the new battle system would lead to frustration if I made the enemies too OP, and I was shooting for battles that wouldn't last longer than five to ten Rounds, so I did nerf them while I was developing them. Clearly, I was too cautious in that regard.

One other thing I wanted to add is that the names for Brickdoctor loot are the best! The descriptions are cool as well. I've though about renaming the Sword of Ancestral Hatred, but there's just no way I could top it (also cool to see it's cousin, the Sword of Ancestral Benevolence, on this quest). The descriptions for unique loot are also neat!

Thanks; you may be the first person to say that! For all of my special drops (the non-boss/commander drops are intended to be basic equipment that you'd sell back to Anwyl or Fabian or a low-Level player), I purposely try for a somewhat grandiose description, sort of inspired by the naming of equipment in Realm of the Mad God (Which I haven't played in a couple years, after Kabam tried to make more money and broke the game, but I liked the way the loot was styled.).

[Flipz]

Thanks; you may be the first person to say that! For all of my special drops (the non-boss/commander drops are intended to be basic equipment that you'd sell back to Anwyl or Fabian or a low-Level player), I purposely try for a somewhat grandiose description, sort of inspired by the naming of equipment in Realm of the Mad God (Which I haven't played in a couple years, after Kabam tried to make more money and broke the game, but I liked the way the loot was styled.).

I certainly try to style my loot after the Brickdoctor Standard.

[CMP]

I like the loot and the naming is fine, but the suitabilities are so specific they seriously detract from their usefulness. I understand it's to give them more character, but it still damages their value.

[Brickdoctor]

I like the loot and the naming is fine, but the suitabilities are so specific they seriously detract from their usefulness. I understand it's to give them more character, but it still damages their value.

I agree that one of the drops, the Cloak, has a really specific set of suitabilities. I had that one initially having a much more general list of suitable classes (I think it was all Mages and some of the Clerics, plus a few Expert Classes), but Sandy wanted it to be more specific for flavor's sake.

[Flipz]

Well, at least it suits Nyx.

[Chromeknight]

Nerwen turns to Matthias.

I am glad it did not come to raising arms against one another. No good comes of fights like that.

The silence is not that I (or, I suspect others) don't want to comment, for me I've just been reading over the quest to remind myself of all we did and said. That and trying to work out what's next for Nerwen, it feels like she's done the paladin thing now and is ready to move on.

Firstly, thanks zeph. I think we could see the effort you put in, especially in the midst of life and other quests and so on.

For myself, I wasn't as into this quest as previous ones, partly life stuff and partly the party dynamic felt odd. I have all sorts of ways I can critique my own play here, so I don't feel too bad adding a word or two about others.

Purpearl and Nerwen were always going to clash, two opionated elves played by talkative players. Thanks PPJB for someone to bounce off and for being cool with character conflict not being a personal thing. That said, there were a couple of times (fighting the snake, assaulting Lieutenant Andrew, leaving the chaomancer alive) where you seemed to run against the other three in your party just for the hel of it. Keep an eye on that, that it's a character thing not a player thing, check in with your group that they're ok.

I know not everyone plays the same way, but often Purpearl will think something as a reaction rather than say something. This leaves others with a choice, become mind readers and use what you've written, or ignore it and carry on regardless. Talk as well as think.

Alexis and Nerwen have had some good moments before, I remember in the hall with Nyx chatting about love, but even after a week of subjective time (and seven months objectively) I don't feel like I know her any better. You, masked, posted less than everyone else (which in itself is not bad) but a lot of your battle posts were simply Alexis repeats with no banter and little contribution to strategy. Even in the last battle you were giving orders for zelphie after she'd been KO'd and raised by Avertine. Sometimes it felt like you were just phoning it in.

But then, the fall out between them after the last battle was great from a character point of view, so there is something there. My suggestion is almost the opposite to Purpearl's above. Alexis is a harlot, we rarely see how that plays out in how she approaches others, more than that we (as player/readers) don't get to see how she feels about it, being a 19 year old girl who does all sorts of explicit things to enemies, should be a character comedy goldmine, but it rarely is.

Matthias and Nerwen got along great. Originally I was going to ditch the cowl since Matthias could carry the RuffPig interaction, but I kept it on and I'm glad I did, it gave them some great asides and chances to snark at Purpearl. Nerwen really likes the gnome, and beyond that Stick, you were a great player. Full of strategy, questions and staying on top of battle corrections and details. You posted more than Zeph even, which is above and beyond. You were always going to be odd man out tagging along with three elves, but it never fazed you, which was great. I know you acknowledged this in the quest, but keep working on being able to post the strategy stuff in character as Matthias gains confidence. (I'd really love to see him as PL someday, even host you!). That said, a lot of your posts were solely OOC, if you'd been less talkative in other posts that'd be a problem. As it is, it ain't, but keep an eye on it.

Nerwen and XX started coldly. After all, it was one of his bombs Atramor used for a party wipe in Dastan. But Nerwen likes Nyx and was able to put enough together to give him a chance. So that by the end she respected him as a party member and wasn't going to leave him hanging. However, it felt like Nerwen's increased rapport came at the expense of RuffPig, not interacting with them as much as I could've. As I said, I'm glad I kept the cowl on, and not just for Matthias interaction. Seeing Purpearl send the dead to murder Russel was something Nerwen had to act on, even if it took three days to untangle, party allied Zepher NPCs are great and should be preserved where possible.

(NPCs that are just self indulgent Mary-sues however need to be brutally murdered and have their corpses violated by black magic....) Samuel was great too, and I wish Nerwen had learnt that song from Malty, despite him being a treacherous two-faced (many-faced) no-goodnik.

The only comment on battles I'll make are I'm disappointed the Hissvetia battle was there, especially with the camaraderie effect in play. And Kinto's assassin battle, though it tied to a concurrent quest and was good RP moments, felt like filler as well. Anyway, XP and loot, WOOT! I'm not going to comment on the last battle, I think my quote above says what needs to be said there, plus you already expressed your complex emotions regarding it.

Storyline-wise. It was frustrating that the quest was protect Avertine and then spend the next five months with him offscreen. I don't mind railroading, passing the party from one encounter to another but it was a slow train, so that by the time it came to save Avertine's megablocks, it was hard to care, except for a 'quest successful' tag and XP. That said, I come back to the comment I started with, clearly you put heaps of effort into, what in the end, is a game, art, escape and entertainment. That my character doesn't have some stuff or has other baggage now, that's just grist for the mill and not cause for complaint, I, as a player, have been variously thrilled, frustrated, confused, smug and amused by the quest, what more can you ask?

[StickFig]

The silence is not that I (or, I suspect others) don't want to comment, for me I've just been reading over the quest to remind myself of all we did and said....

Firstly, thanks zeph. I think we could see the effort you put in, especially in the midst of life and other quests and so on.

I will concur with these two points up front. More to follow, but it is a busy week at work for me and I have a lot to think about with this quest before I say too much.

[StickFig]

Disclaimers

1) @StickFig casts Wall of Text. It's super effective!

2) Double posting, but whatever. Let's do this.

The Quest

@Zepher, I know I got discouraged at the end and I really didn't mean for that to be a reflection on you as a QM or even on the quest as a whole. I think the quest was very good; there were a lot of fun moments and interesting battles. I just re-read the entire thing and it was still interesting to read, even having taken part (though that may have been because it went on... and on... and on for 173 days, longer than Baltarok!). I have been working to figure out the sources of my frustration, and this is what I think was the cause.

1) Railroading. Not necessarily by the QM (maybe a little: put these medallions on or fail, kill these two or fail, etc), but more by the party dynamics and my lack of RP experience. Because of the starting side quests, some of us had a little piece of the puzzle, but none of us ever really applied that knowledge to the main quest. For instance, having seen @Masked Builder's side quest, Alexis had two perfect opportunities to get a little more knowledge into the open about the grave robbing. Not that it would have changed much, but we might have been more prepared against Thistlethorp or the murder of Sam and Keith. I say that my own inexperience made things more difficult for me because when @Zepher told us (generally though an NPC) that we didn't have a choice, I (as a player) believed him. I want Matthias to have a high level of ingenuity, but I think I have failed on that so far just because I'm not thinking open-world enough yet. Matthias was also really difficult to play in this quest because....

2) Matthias is (supposed to be) very moral. His main quandary as a character is that he grew up royalist and a monarchist, but there's no king in Eubric. That didn't really play into this quest, but the farther along we got in this quest, the more apparent it became that the Veterans of Heroica had sent us on a fool's errand with no moral high ground anywhere. In the future, Matthias the character is likely to quit quests like this voluntarily (or just grow up into a cyncial old man like Guts); so far he is too concerned with showing that he's a true (and worthwhile) member of Heroica to turn against a party. But seriously, for a quest with 15 battles(!), including the side-quest ones, it felt wrong to have only a few where the moral implications weren't poured on like sugar at Calvin's breakfast. I got it, battle is real and has implications that we don't always like (believe me, I know that), but this is a game....

3) Battles. It seems like it would be very hard to balance battles for a mixed-level party with only one assailant, and yet that's what we got. Until the final duel (which should by definition have only had two people involved!) the battles were regularly against a single enemy. The Assassin battle was particularly ridiculous, and we all sort of halfway said so, and then we got to fight her again. Twice. The worst part was when we were told that the battles would be easier if we just used some consumables, two per battle, and we had already used more than that and didn't have any more.

One last thing that might be affecting my enjoyment of #102 is that I think I must be missing some larger story arc? I went back and read every Zepher quest (I think) during the final battle and it didn't seem to help.

The Characters (I'm only going to list the ones I have a comment for.)

Alexis Fenral: Would have liked to see a lot more interaction from Fenral. Several times you missed things, and as I noted above, the party suffered from not having any idea in advance about the bodies and burying, which Alexis had at least partial knowledge of.

Sometimes it felt like you were just phoning it in.

Bart Aventine: Dunno, we barely met the guy. Seems like kind of a sniveling coward, but who knows? He's dead now.

It was frustrating that the quest was protect Avertine and then spend the next five months with him offscreen.

Johnny Everyman: Matthias is going to punch him in the nose kneecaps next time they meet. Seriously, does the man have no sense of decency? Sending Heroes off into the wild with no idea what's really going on and no care for anything but lining his pockets.

M of Manyfaces / Midge / Malty: Matthias really liked Midge. But then Midge turned out to be a lie. Matthias also really liked Baradock and Purpearl, and look where that got him. He's just not very good at picking his friends, I suppose.

Matthias: I think I've said all I can above. I'm not at all happy with how I played him, and I feel like it has taken me two full quests (at six months each) to get to a point where I'm playing him consistently.

That said, a lot of your posts were solely OOC, if you'd been less talkative in other posts that'd be a problem. As it is, it ain't, but keep an eye on it.

@Chromeknight, thanks for the advice, I'll be working on it.

Nerwen Calmcacil: Right now, Matthias is in the Hall drinking to fellowship, but it's all a front. I don't know that he really has any friends in Heroica at this point. He gets along well with Nerwen, but he's kind of afraid of her, and in her Minstrel outfit he doesn't know what to think. Nerwen is definitely the character that I (as the player) would most like to go on a quest again with, if only because she is less of a loose cannon than some and yet still interesting and interactive.

Purpearl Berthadhiell: After Baltarok, where Purpearl sided pretty heavily with the orcs because she perceived them as being oppressed, I was totally caught off guard by the snake, and then the lieutenant. At this point, Purpearl seems unpredictable and wild. Something to look out for: Purpearl often seems to know things she shouldn't, like what's just been said in Animal Talk....

Russel Ruffers & Sir Pigley: Great. Russel is perfect for comic relief, comedic interludes, and aww. Sir Pigley the Eeyore is perhaps less enjoyable, but the pair of them work really well together.

XX: My favorite character, actually. Unapologetic mercenary, with bombs and cannons. And he has a softer side. It's like James Bond (the Daniel Craig version). What's not to like?

Equality for every gnome, everywhere

Overall, great quest! :thumbup: I feel like I focused on a lot of negatives above, but that's more a reflection of the fact that it's easier to criticize than point out things that went seamlessly (only dissatisfied customers contact support).

Edited November 18, 2014 by StickFig

[Flipz]

I guess I might as well toss my thoughts on 102 out there.

I...sort of have two opinions of 102: the opinions I formed before the Heroes met Zelphie, and the opinions I formed afterward. The former opinion was based on some faulty assumptions, but had a lot more praise, while the second set is much more critical but also likely more useful. As a result, I'm going to split this into two parts, the first putting myself back in my mindset at the time and the second expressing my mindset now.

Prior to the final segment, I was going to congratulate you for, like you did in 107, creating a number of separate plotlines that intersected but didn't necessarily tie together. Listing what I knew of at the time, there was Midge, Malty, Thistlethorp and the Red Assassins, Sam and Kieth, the subplots in Kinto's guest spot, the Frog Paladins and Hissvetians, all on top of the plot of finding Aventine...it really felt, like 100 and 107, like the characters were living through the logical consequences of trying to accomplish their work in a world as vibrant and complex as Olegia. I called 100 a "campaign" because that's what it was; the Heroes were given a goal and a general region in which to accomplish it, and then they had various sometimes-but-not-always-related adventures along the way of trying to achieve their goal. It's a different style of play from most Quests, but that's exactly what I liked about it: it was new and different, and gave us a taste of a more traditional RPG experience.

Unfortunately...pretty much all of that evaporated when it all got tied into the one big plotline of the duel between Chauncey and Aventine. As soon as that reveal came into play, all of that interconnectivity got shut down, just like if two people are roleplaying, one person says "I do X" and the other says "no you don't". Before, it felt like all of these characters had lives and stories of their own, and they happened to intersect with the Heroes' path for a little while; after the reveal, though, they seemed more like props that existed for the sole purpose of being in the Heroes' story and only really existed while the players were on-screen. Everything the players did, all those lives they touched, ended up existing in a bubble, and only the one "big" decision at the end had any real impact on the world. Part of that came from player choice of killing everything that moved, but part of it came from the characters not having any plausible future beyond the event that led to the Heroes killing them. Thistlethorp was fine, but revealing he was working for Aventine changed his death from "the Heroes were on a mission, and along the way they heroically stopped an evil necromancer" to "the Heroes were on a mission, and along the way they stopped a necromancer, because if they hadn't he would have helped the Big Bad of the Quest and then had nothing else to do with his life." Similarly, Sam and Keith went from a friendly couple going about their lives to yet another pawn in The Plot, who would never have had a reason to meet the Heroes if it weren't for the Quest.

TL;DR, I'd like to see more evidence that the world keeps going even when Heroes aren't around, and especially I want to see that people have lives before and after the players are on-screen. Wren and Hans and Felton were fantastic examples of that, while XX's saying that all of his past five jobs involved Heroes is an example of how that's gone away.

Oh, and I want to complain also about the stupid amulets: NO. Those stupid things were the worst of several worlds; first of all, it telegraphed SUPER hard that Aventine was completely untrustworthy (seriously, "there's no reason to betray me, but wear this amulet anyway so you can't do so" is right up there with "I promise I'm not going to give you a reason to scream, but get into the van and tie this gag in your mouth anyway so it's not even an option" on the list of Statement To Run Away From Really Fast), second of all, it's a Mandatory Artifact (which is always irritating, but was worse for Matthias and Purpearl because of their limited Artifact slots that nerfed Matthias in particular really hard), and third of all, it gave some SERIOUS permanent negative penalties in exchange for rather lackluster rewards. At Nerwen and Alexis' Level range, that sort of thing makes more sense (since they're a high enough level that they've probably had access to HP-increasing consumables before); for Matthias and Purpearl, however, it's a WAY bigger hit since they're at such a low level--yes, the numbers were proportionally even, but because of the way enemy Level scales for higher-level players a 10% reduction is still a much bigger deal for a lower-level character than for a higher-level one.

That said, lots of brilliant elements here (M was interesting, the Thistlethorp plot in general was pretty good, and Avery is always great, even if the battles there got rather stagnant, no pun intended), just sort of dulled by the ending.

[Chromeknight]

Nerwen Calmcacil: He gets along well with Nerwen, but he's kind of afraid of her, and in her Minstrel outfit he doesn't know what to think. Nerwen is definitely the character that I (as the player) would most like to go on a quest again with, if only because she is less of a loose cannon than some and yet still interesting and interactive.

Thanks Stick, I'm looking forward to see where minstrel!Nerwen goes too but I have a feeling she's still the same scary elf underneath. It's a compliment to be called interesting and interactive (at least, I'm reading it so). I'd love to see it pointed out to Nerwen that some are afraid of her, I think she'd be aghast that Matthias, whom she considers a friend, might fear her.

XX: ... Unapologetic mercenary, with bombs and cannons. And he has a softer side. It's like James Bond (the Daniel Craig version). What's not to like?

This. So much this.

Oh, and I want to complain also about the stupid amulets: NO. Those stupid things were the worst of several worlds; first of all, it telegraphed SUPER hard that Aventine was completely untrustworthy (seriously, "there's no reason to betray me, but wear this amulet anyway so you can't do so" is right up there with "I promise I'm not going to give you a reason to scream, but get into the van and tie this gag in your mouth anyway so it's not even an option" on the list of Statement To Run Away From Really Fast), second of all, it's a Mandatory Artifact (which is always irritating, but was worse for Matthias and Purpearl because of their limited Artifact slots that nerfed Matthias in particular really hard), and third of all, it gave some SERIOUS permanent negative penalties in exchange for rather lackluster rewards. At Nerwen and Alexis' Level range, that sort of thing makes more sense (since they're a high enough level that they've probably had access to HP-increasing consumables before); for Matthias and Purpearl, however, it's a WAY bigger hit since they're at such a low level--yes, the numbers were proportionally even, but because of the way enemy Level scales for higher-level players a 10% reduction is still a much bigger deal for a lower-level character than for a higher-level one.

Not that I want to be telling tales out of school but...

Not happy about the medallion thing. It breaks Matthias' build, causes Alexis and Nerwen to miss out on between somewhere 5 and 21 XP and penalises Purpearl also. The buff is ok but not great and the punishment beyond failing the quest is big. Nerwen, for example would lose 4hp, which took 12XP to gain at this point, ie. the gains from the last two quests wiped out. Alexis would lose 7hp, or the gains from 32XP, even with her MoG, that's still ten battles. I'll put it on, because I want the quest and if I turn back, who knows when the next one is posted, but I'm only happy and wanted to ventlet you know.Also, How will the blood oath medallion translate after the quest?

The Medallions were already a thing before I chose the party, but I was happy they were once I did - I know you've never QM'd, but balancing for this party is difficult at best - if the gap continued to get wider, it would be downright impossible.You're right. It's a big punishment. Though health is not the only thing you gain with levels, and Sandy has furthermore approved this. I had a more lenient punishment originally, but Sandy veto'd it.If I told you how it worked after the quest, that'd ruin things, wouldn't it? Why don't you see how things play out before critiquing it. You've only just put it on. You don't know how every things going to work.EDIT: QMs also do things like this all the time - specials can lower WP, which at this point would be costing a player like Guts 6000 gold, or a player like Hybros 4200 gold, or even a player like you or me 1600 or 1100 gold. It happens. That would set me back a quest or two in that certain regard as well, and would probably take Guts a year to recover.

Fair enough.As I said, I was venting. And you're right I've not been a QM yet. Thanks for your courteous reply, I'll get back to enjoying the story now...

Absolutely! I'm not trying to be rude back, just telling you my thinking as well - I'm sure my knee jerk reaction would also be venting, in all honesty, but just stick with it and see what happens!

Though now, in retrospect I can see part of what I was reacting to was the demonstration that Avertine (and by extension the quest and kinda the QM) were untrustworthy,

[StickFig]

...it telegraphed SUPER hard that Aventine was completely untrustworthy....

...the demonstration that Avertine (and by extension the quest and kinda the QM) were untrustworthy,

I think I knew this intuitively from the beginning, but didn't want to say anything because I wasn't sure.

It's a compliment to be called interesting and interactive (at least, I'm reading it so).

Yep!

[Flipz]

I think I knew this intuitively from the beginning, but didn't want to say anything because I wasn't sure.

Consider it a valuable life lesson, then. Generally speaking, if it looks like someone is trying to maneuver you into a compromising situation, they are, and the few times they aren't it's better to be safe than sorry.

[StickFig]

It's always nice to get life lessons from people half your age

But yeah, I think I just need to be a more assertive player all around. It's time for Matthias to come into his own.

[Chromeknight]

Mind you, The amulets did what they were supposed to. If we hadn't been wearing them, everyone would've turned against Avertine without blinking.

[StickFig]

Yes, but I think that might have been a better outcome somehow. I agree with Flipz that they were kind of a cheap device to make what should have been a fairly easy decision much harder.

[The Legonater]

The Characters (I'm only going to list the ones I have a comment for.)

Alexis Fenral: Would have liked to see a lot more interaction from Fenral. Several times you missed things, and as I noted above, the party suffered from not having any idea in advance about the bodies and burying, which Alexis had at least partial knowledge of.

Alexis and Nerwen have had some good moments before, I remember in the hall with Nyx chatting about love, but even after a week of subjective time (and seven months objectively) I don't feel like I know her any better. You, masked, posted less than everyone else (which in itself is not bad) but a lot of your battle posts were simply Alexis repeats with no banter and little contribution to strategy. Even in the last battle you were giving orders for zelphie after she'd been KO'd and raised by Avertine. Sometimes it felt like you were just phoning it in.

Just going to echo this, because it's a trend that was present on 53, I first really noticed at Baltarok, and this quest really highlighted it. Alexis used to be a really cool character, but I feel like you've kind of given up up of Alexis. I don't really have any advice to fix this, I'm not exactly the biggest expert on roleplaying, but I definitely sense a lack of dedication to the game as of late. I could be wrong, but that's just what seems to be coming across.

[Masked Builder]

So first of all, I want to thank you Zeph for hosting another wonderful quest and for picking me as one of the heroes.

On the quest overall:

I enjoyed it. I thought it was going to be much shorter than it was, but it is what it is. The PM side quests at the beginning were a highlight of the quest for me. I was rather peeved because of the battle where we basically fought the same people two (three?) times in a row. (And those battles progressed very slowly.)

On my fellow quest-mates:

I think we had a nice party dynamic, that I didn't use as much as I probably should have. I really did like the argument we had after the final battle and wish I could have done that more often with you guys, with three elves on the quest we could have had some interesting conversations.

Alexis and Nerwen have had some good moments before, I remember in the hall with Nyx chatting about love, but even after a week of subjective time (and seven months objectively) I don't feel like I know her any better. You, masked, posted less than everyone else (which in itself is not bad) but a lot of your battle posts were simply Alexis repeats with no banter and little contribution to strategy. Even in the last battle you were giving orders for zelphie after she'd been KO'd and raised by Avertine. Sometimes it felt like you were just phoning it in. But then, the fall out between them after the last battle was great from a character point of view, so there is something there. My suggestion is almost the opposite to Purpearl's above. Alexis is a harlot, we rarely see how that plays out in how she approaches others, more than that we (as player/readers) don't get to see how she feels about it, being a 19 year old girl who does all sorts of explicit things to enemies, should be a character comedy goldmine, but it rarely is.

My personal opinion on battles is there's not enough time for banter in battles. On a player level, I'm not great at strategy, unless it's throwing nostrums and smelling salts at the battle, which works well most of the time, but is also not the cheapest strategy.

Disclaimers 1) @StickFig

The Characters (I'm only going to list the ones I have a comment for.) Alexis Fenral: Would have liked to see a lot more interaction from Fenral. Several times you missed things, and as I noted above, the party suffered from not having any idea in advance about the bodies and burying, which Alexis had at least partial knowledge of.

I will admit that I didn't reply when I should have and then we I finally got to replying I felt that I had missed the opportunity to have a say in those questions.

Just going to echo this, because it's a trend that was present on 53, I first really noticed at Baltarok, and this quest really highlighted it. Alexis used to be a really cool character, but I feel like you've kind of given up on Alexis. I don't really have any advice to fix this, I'm not exactly the biggest expert on roleplaying, but I definitely sense a lack of dedication to the game as of late. I could be wrong, but that's just what seems to be coming across.

I will agree that I am not as into the character as I have been. I suspect it's having been this one class for almost two years now. Though that could just be me.

[Flare]

I will agree that I am not as into the character as I have been. I suspect it's having been this one class for almost two years now. Though that could just be me.

I don't think that I am in a place to tell you what to do, but if you're getting really bored with your character, then maybe its time to spice things up. Changing class is a great way to do it, or just introduce a new element into the roleplaying of your character. Whatever you think could work best. Noob.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Flare

[Purpearljellyblob]

Some thoughts on 102, perhaps not so much onto the nitty gritty and the mechanics, just in general, simply. First of all, thank you, Zepher, for hosting another long quest like this one, takes a lot of dedication and commitment to pull this one off on top of your busy schedule, so that's one for you. I have been through 83, 90 and 102 with Purpearl Berthadhiell and I am pleased to say 102 is the one that fully brings out Purpearl as a character. Mainly due to the amount of choices that each of us have to make throughout, and I am glad I've stuck with what Purpearl would've done and how her journey as a Mage ended on a high. I've ditched the stereotypical Purpearl in 83 (feminists wouldn't take that very well I guess ) and went for something more realistic in 90, something you would often see in today's world, someone who has her opinions and is stubborn about it. 102 just amplifies that trait a hundred times more and as a player there is nothing much I can ask for in terms of the amount of character development opportunities it has presented to us. I am pleased to get to where I wanted Purpearl to be before she goes into Mystic Knight, certainly interesting to see how that plays out with another added element of complexity (maybe more on that in the Theatre). Overall, for 102, I have to admit I haven't put much thought into battle strategy as much as 90, could have done better if not for work and real life, but in hindsight, they were many and they were short and sweet and that's a plus. The last battle is a bit of a hit or miss but I am not too concerned as a player or for Purpearl, (maybe she might be, but I haven't thought about it. Perhaps an early failure for Purpearl is a good motivation in the long run) but we all love Heroica so it doesn't really matter as long as we enjoy the stories and roleplaying right?

[Zepher]

Well I guess it's about that time, huh?

I've been putting off commenting on the quest, because as you may imagine, I have a lot to say, and I know I won't say all of it. As early as the invasion of Chauncey's house I felt that I should have been keeping running notes, but felt it was too late at that point... even though that must seem a really long time ago now. I will be including character analysis after I get a chance to reread some of the quest, so let me just talk the quest and some ideas on story/game. I will also not be quoting the specific replies above, but I've read them all and promise they are on my mind as I reply.

Firstly, as with all stories, I feel I should start with intention (and answer Flipz' main complaint). This quest was meant to a) highlight all the great things people have done before me - I believe/hope we saw a lot of what has come up in the last few years of this game. I hit a lot of my own stories, but we also got Red Assassins, Syndicate, Town Watch, Witches (maybe not everyone, but Purpearl did at least ) Wolfgang, Direwolves, Crimson Crown, C.A.T., the Cold Circles, Stirlance, Hinckwells, Shadeaux, Pongcanis, R'Klif, Bric'Lin, the Paladin Order... probably more. These are all stories that various QMs (WBD, CallMePie, Sandy, Endgame, Brickdoctor, the list goes on) have introduced, and I believe we are all indebted to each other for building a world like this. It's a ton of fun, and it really couldn't have been done by any one of us. So this was my celebration of all that.

The second Debts was Flipz' complaint. There is a big world out there that the heroes don't relate to, and it keeps moving without them. We saw some of that: The Chaomancer, the Frog and Snake, Samuel, the Hinckwell Shadeaux rivalry, the continued issues in R'Klif, the pubs, etc. BUT I also wanted to discuss something that rarely comes up in the game, even when revisiting places: the heroes leave very permanent effects on people's lives, and then get to go home to their homes. They DON'T have to stick around to see the consequences, but there must always always be some. The heroes just parade off to the next adventure - but really they are part of that big moving world. They are protected from it, however, and so the consequences never catch them. When XX claimed his last few jobs had been ruined by heroes, that's the truth of it (time-wise there really hasn't been a chance for him to get a substantial job). But who the hell talks about that ever? The heroes saved Loush, sure, but did they help rebuild? The heroes murdered Raguel, but are the Paladins going to just lie down and let the Orcs go unpunished? Who has stuck behind to help actually pick up the pieces. The heroes serve very much as "cause" so perhaps it is time for the effect to catch up to them, even in microcosm form. And still not everything related back.

So, the quest. The side-quests were just ways to introduce and build a few story lines and relationships. In "A Cult or Two" Thistlethorp was attacked by a member of the Crimson Crown (who was totally in the right by the way, GO CRIMSON CROWN!!!!! ). Matthias helped him and they were friends. The second cult was of course the Cold Circles, but Matthias didn't ever ask about that (probably because in character he couldn't read the title). Alexis met Sam in "Girl Power" and Keith, as pathetic as ever, asked for Purpearl's help with a rat infestation in "Rats!!!!". These characters were intentionally introduced as lame comic relief - if I could have I would have had the heroes kill off Jacob and Christian, but I feel that I'd receive more complaints than I already did if I went with that route. It's the same idea though - Jacob and Christian are tolerated by the heroes, but are they really doing good? Who knows. We never see the consequences of their odd jobs. Who says they aren't working for villains in their "off screen" times. "Crabby Bacon" saw Nerwen meeting Russel and Pigley and Bert. The toxic monster she dealt with was just for me to have a bit of fun beforehand.

Johnny Everyman is one of my favorite NPCs in the game. He's an amoral bastard, but hey, that's who he is! He's friends with everyone, and can help you out or stab you in the back. Almost a "hero" in his own right, huh? Aventine and XX were then encountered. Aventine was a weasel, sure, but I wonder what people will think of him when we explore more of Chauncey. I really didn't have a preference as to who survived, though it has a massive massive impact on my finale. They were just two people who valued different things.

Taking Aventine away was a bit of a misstep, but it was what it was, and by the time I realized just how long you'd be without him before rejoining him it was too late. Sorry about that. I can't think of a good fix without making the quest unnecessarily longer or changing it entirely, but it still wasn't the best. I don't apologize for the amulets. Sorry. They were totally necessary, in my opinion. Cheap, yes. Aventine was cheap. He didn't want to die anymore than Chauncey. But it created the whole question: where do the ideals stand in this game. The heroes are FINALLY being punished for taking action, so do they still? We see them take action all the time and then walk away before they see the fall out - what if they had to see the fallout? It's not too shocking that they weren't happy about it, because they're not really ever held accountable for their actions, and it's shocking to learn that sometimes those tough choices have tough consequences.

The first battle was just me having some fun too. Direwolves are my favorite foes ever because they were impossible to beat in Quest 1 and were easy as hell to beat in quest 102. Evel McGuffin was just a pretty evil ex-Wolfganger. I loved including Everstien (who talked about Thistlethorp stealing the bodies, by the way) because I like him as a character, but he's sort of lost in the universe - I don't know what to do with him now that Hoples was introduced immediately afterwards. The Watch and Syndicate hanging out was just so you'd meet them, and to put their presence in Eubric.

Thanks to 68 Russel knows to go to Bric'Lin. We run into a pompous actor pal, get some drinks. Really XX should have known all this too - I sort of forgot for stretches that he and Chauncey should tangentially know each other because in 68 Everyman said that Zane and Chauncey and XX all chilled for a while. Lots of story lines - there are a few other goofs along the way you'll see (XX should have recognized Nerwen immediately too, and I don't think he did, because they fought against each other in the finale battle of Dastan). Frog and Snake were to introduce the moral theme after Evel, and the consequences. I'm sorry that the camaraderie effect wore off too, Chrome, but that was because you chose that fight instead of the Frog Fight post-mansion. I had characters buy you drinks throughout to make up for it a bit (and because I think it's a thing nice NPCs would do).

Interior fight was what it was. I liked Ragnar. Zelphie was fun to play with in that scene too, what with her hero past.

Back to Eubric. I agree that the Inn part was a bit of a slow down, but I really wanted to test out guest QMing. It worked far better in 107, but I only knew it would work because I tried it here. Very much a geuina pig sort of deal, and I'm sorry about that, but it's gotta happen sometimes.

Eubric was a bit of hit or miss. The bar fight was a little silly - why would you run into Bors? Also, strangely no one looked for the artifact he said Aventine gave him post-battle. That whole story line felt forced on my part, but only because you never picked up on the hints (which is on both of us, I imagine). Midge leaned down to take the artifact to return to Aventine (he "checked Bors pulse after the battle), and if anyone had looked for it afterwards they might have gotten something out of Midge, but they simply didn't. So when it popped back up later it seemed random, in my opinion, and convoluted because I ended up packing a lot of info into a little space. The fight with Bors also seemed strange because it was all over the artifact once he gave you the information on the Armored Reaper, but you never looked for the artifact. Whatever, it is what it was. I'm sorry to see Bors go. If you hadn't fought him you would have skipped a huge portion of the quest.

The Watch is a problematic in the game. They can't punish heroes because the game makes it impossible, but what should happen when the heroes break the law? They walk away without an injury and without a care in the world, and are automatically allowed back into Eubric - once again, no consequences, no debts. Anyway, when Purpearl resisted (highly unexpected) I ran with it. I'll let Purpearl speak for herself on that side quest, but I had fun with it. I'd like to publish it, but if she wants to keep it secret, that's her call. The Avery battles were clearly a mess, no point belaboring that point. She was built to fight Guts and Nyx and Docken and Assassin Hybros, and I can never wrap my head around leveling down enemies (doesn't make any sense to me, really). But the complaints were valid. Sorry guys. There was also experience to be gained if you had patched up the safe house, and that would have made the resultant battles far easier, but no one seemed even remotely interested in that. Thistlethorp was indeed connected to Aventine, Flipz, but only really tangentially, same way Zane and XX have worked together before but aren't really united NPCs. Thistlethorp wasn't punished because of his tie to Aventine, too, but because he was targeted by the Crimson Crown. How's that for a independently spinning Olegia? His relationship to the actual "plot" of the quest wasn't what got him killed. "the Heroes were on a mission, and along the way they stopped a necromancer, because if they hadn't he would have helped the Big Bad of the Quest and then had nothing else to do with his life." - That's not true. He had already helped Aventine. That part of his story, the part of his life where he actually met and worked with Aventine, was done before the heroes even met him. I was actually pretty happy with that - he was involved with Plot A, but then sort of left it, but then the heroes found him and the Plot B, and he died there because of reasons exclusive to that.

Also, Stick/Chrome, let's talk railroading real quick. Yes, I railroad. No, I'm no longer sorry for it (though I used to be). I'm taking video game writing this semester, and one of our textbooks very explicitly talks about the complaints against railroading and how unfounded they are. The textbook says this (paraphrased - a few paragraphs boiled down): yes, any story can have any ending, but no, most stories can't have more than one or two satisfying endings. That's why we craft stories. So, yes, my characters told you to do A or B, and no, you never had to do that. You could have sailed to Charis, or sat around Eubric for seven days. But those stories would suck. So my characters shepherd you. But there are tons of choices: Purpearl had a few weeks of totally independent plot in Eubric, Samuel was never supposed to leave that alleyway (he and Nerwen were supposed to have a very brief chat as a character moment for Nerwen - more debts she had to repay, and yes, I should have built in more for others but Nerwen was on my previous quest, so it was easy for me [Purpearl got lots of personal debts in her side quest too, and Alexis had a few with XX]). As I said above, not fighting Bors would have been a significantly different path, and the chaomancer didn't have to be confronted (and he could have told you about M, but he didn't because of his execution method). I'm willing to roll with the punches a bit, but I'd still like to point you in the right direction.

Out of Eubric, in R'Klif. We avoid not one but two fights with diplomacy (nice job Nerwen!). The first one was meant to be avoidable, the Armored Reaper was not meant to be avoidable, but after we got a bit into it and characters started to talk to her, it felt stupid to continue it - she was more than willing to give away Chauncey's location: in my plans she was defeated first, but why should that happen when she has no loyalty to employer? This was also a goof - I originally implied that the guardians were gifts from Aventine (being a necromancer) but then realized after a day of thinking that Armored Reaper was hired by Chauncey, so I just quietly retconned it in the next post. Even I get lost sometimes (oh yeah, and Eran wasn't meant to be alive! whoops!). I enjoy the Pongcanis, and felt that they should be discussed - they really are oppressed, more often then not by heroes. Even after 102, though, no one seems to consider them anything less than barbarians. Ah well.

M, as Malty now, meets up with the heroes (they are heading to the same place, after all) and everyone runs into Mac. A quick meeting with a Chaos Beast (for XX and Alexis' benefit) and then a chaomancer who calls the heroes on a lot of the crimes they've committed/witnessed and done little to actually kill the ghosts of. He meets an end.

Zelphie greets the heroes. Now that Chauncey is unable to stop them and prevent their involvement, he wants to play with all his cards on the table. Zelphie raises the most important question of the quest, and the one I'll delve a little bit into now:

Are we still heroes? Or are we just monsters who walk in, CAUSE, and leave without seeing the effect?

I don't know when we started calling heroes mercenaries. My personal earliest memory of it was Constance in 30, and that was a slur. She did it because NO ONE called heroes mercs. They were HEROES at that point in the game. And if we start to look back at the history we've built as a group (that debt I was talking about to other QMs earlier) in C.A.T. they probably were heroes, because they did good or got killed. But now they don't have that fear. They are GODS now, our heroes, but without any punishment for any action, they are just mercs now. They confirm to Aventine's quest for relentless and total power. Zelphie thinks the only way to learn good from bad is to see that bad action yield bad effects, and good actions yield good effects. But the "heroes" now just cause, and since they and their real friends and allies can't die, they lose that conditioning. Matthias actually misunderstood Zelphie: when he says that she thinks the strong should prey on the weak, he was wrong. What Zelphie actually outlined is that (if consequences still exist, pre-C.A.T. era essentially) the strong will, in their path to becoming strong, also learn to be good. Essentially great power teaches you great responsibility, because they go hand in hand. Without that learning period though, where you can screw up and see you've screwed up, you end up with great power... and that's it. The strong should help the weak, she believes (though she followed it through incorrectly that the weak should therefore not act at all, because they haven't learn how to do "good" yet and are therefore doing "bad". But I guess no one's perfect, and she's dead now anyway).

The final battle fell out because it HAD TO. The heroes couldn't stop it because it was a EFFECT of a CAUSE that happened seven years earlier. I think the real "right" choice would have been to step aside and take no hand in it, but the world is of course more complex than that, and the heroes had a personal CAUSE that led to the EFFECT of them intervening. They, for once, were faced with TWO effects: reaction instead of action, the more challenging of the two, I think. The decision is easy if you don't have to stick around to see the fallout. But the fallout is tough if you suddenly get sucked into it, and that's what happened to the heroes for once: they got sucked into someone ELSE's fallout. Imagine what Olegia will look like in seven years when a new crop of heroes are punished for the fallout of our heroes. Lots of debt, huh?

So, that's my ramblings. Thoughts welcome, hopefully it hasn't been so long that no one wants to talk 102 anymore. Overall, I have to say too, I'm proud of it. Probably too proud. It was not a perfect quest, but I think it was a great quest. There were some sidesteps, but I think that the party was fabulous and complex, and I don't think it would have been so complex and fabulous if this had been a shorter quest (I'll talk more about this when I oat party analysis). So thank you, guys, for making my dream come true - I think that a complex party dynamic arises only if you're locked in with the same characters for too long (and all have DEBTS to each other... haha ha, have I used that word enough yet to drive home some sort of meaning? CAUSE! EFFECT! Blammo).

Now that I'm done writing a novel, I will go take a nap!

Thanks, as always, for playing with me.

[StickFig]

Overall, I have to say too, I'm proud of it. Probably too proud. It was not a perfect quest, but I think it was a great quest.

And you should be - it was a good quest with a lot of interest!

Also, strangely no one looked for the artifact he said Aventine gave him post-battle. ... you never looked for the artifact.

I take responsibility for this: Matthias asked about the weapon, and I was focused on it, but as an inexperienced player I forget that the characters might have things about their persons not listed in their drops or inventory. Matthias was about to suggest going to search Bors' room for the artifact when he was railroaded by the Purpearl/Watch fight.

I think the real "right" choice would have been to step aside and take no hand in it....

Thanks for rewarding your players when their characters actually picked that option, especially when they'd already sat out one fight and missed the associated advancement... oh, wait, no, you punished them with permanent negative bonuses and goaded them in-character until they joined the battle anyway.

...That came out really strongly; please don't take it too personally but that really is the way it felt.

I don't know when we started calling heroes mercenaries. My personal earliest memory of it was Constance in 30, and that was a slur. She did it because NO ONE called heroes mercs. They were HEROES at that point in the game. And if we start to look back at the history we've built as a group (that debt I was talking about to other QMs earlier) in C.A.T. they probably were heroes, because they did good or got killed. But now they don't have that fear. They are GODS now, our heroes, but without any punishment for any action, they are just mercs now.

I think this is the hardest part for Matthias (and me as a player). Matthias has never experienced being a Hero. He came to Heroica Hall because he had no future as a young inner city gnome and he'd heard/read about the exploits of the Nova Corps Avengers Justice League Heroes of Heroica. Now that he's a member, he's been to Baltarok, on an unsatisfying mission that, while it was realistically about as successful as anyone could hope, still didn't live up to the "do good and everything will work out perfectly" expectation portrayed in the stories, and a quest specifically designed to not be heroic.

...As a player, I haven't yet experienced a straightforward quest where Heroes have even the opportunity to be unequivocally good guys. Such quests do exist: for instance, the one where the magic school was being devoured by a void eater thingee. I think that as morally exhausting as the final Baltarok battle and Debts have been, I'd sign Matthias up for a "Kill 10 Large Rats" quest line just to have a break. I have enough moral weight in my daily work; I'd like to think that gaming might be an escape - a way to put things in perspective, sure, or to explore concepts and morality, but in a more fun/lighter way. I know this all just sounds like complaining; sorry. I really do appreciate you, Zeph, and the other QMs and Sandy, for all the work this takes. Thank you so much for creating this for us to enjoy.

I will lay this at the QMs' (collective) feet: if the "Heroes" of Heroica are nothing but mercenaries, it is because the Veterans are accepting missions they should not be (QMs are pitching morally ambiguous quests), and if Heroes never see the effects of their work, it is because QMs wrap up their story lines with a final battle and sometimes a "goodbye" scene. The players have much less control over the morality of Heroica than do the QMs. If the QMs as a whole decide that Heroica is going to work for whoever can pay the best, that's what the players will do, because that's how this works. If the Veterans stop accepting quests from Johnny Everyman (because he is an amoral jerk) and his ilk, then Heroes won't find themselves in such awkward positions....

P.S. -

She was built to fight Guts and Nyx and Docken and Assassin Hybros...

Debts was built for Guts and Nyx and Docken and Hybros (and maybe Alexis and Nerwen); I think it would have worked better with them as characters. Maybe the impact is bigger and more lasting with Matthias, though; rich, powerful, intimidating Guts especially might not notice or care nearly as much as a tiny, weak, railroaded gnome will. Maybe Matthias will want to make a difference in Heroica, to be better, now that he's seen what other Heroes are actually leaving in their wake.

[CMP]

I will lay this at the QMs' (collective) feet: if the "Heroes" of Heroica are nothing but mercenaries, it is because the Veterans are accepting missions they should not be (QMs are pitching morally ambiguous quests), and if Heroes never see the effects of their work, it is because QMs wrap up their story lines with a final battle and sometimes a "goodbye" scene. The players have much less control over the morality of Heroica than do the QMs. If the QMs as a whole decide that Heroica is going to work for whoever can pay the best, that's what the players will do, because that's how this works. If the Veterans stop accepting quests from Johnny Everyman (because he is an amoral jerk) and his ilk, then Heroes won't find themselves in such awkward positions....

The thing is that this game's been going for a long time. If you look at the earliest quests and characters, there were always choices to make, but overall someone would probably end up coming out on top. As the characters have evolved so have the quests and the choices in them.

Look at Quest 1. I LOVE a short and sweet quest like that, but everyone who was there is now around level 30 or 40, and it was just so simple a concept (not in a bad way, of course). Typically quests now have a lot more depth.

In any case, Matthias has been on like two quests, no doubt he'll have a chance to be the stereotypical character in some quest further down the line.

I will the say the choices I saw in Quest 102 were so convoluted and entangled with one another that it ceased to be gray and gray morality and became the ugly brown I'd get by mixing all my fingerpaint colors together as a kid. I like moral quandaries but if you can't even tell in hindsight what the implications of your choices meant then it's just too complex. One of my favorite choices was at the end of Quest 75. Put an end to the bloody rebellion trying to rebel against an overbearing government, or help them out? It was a well-fleshed out conflict but it's fairly easy to see the foundation of it.

[StickFig]

SNIP

Yep, that's exactly what I meant - Quest #102 was probably not as good a fit for Matthias as it would have been for some other characters for all of those reasons.

I am glad that Matthias got picked for it, though!