Heroica RPG - Quest Masters' Lounge

[The Legonater]

The Ups and Downs of Quest 113

The base idea for Mystery in the Mines and a lot of the rest of this arc has been in place since 64. In fact, the Archer wasn't even supposed to be in 64, but wound up there as a cameo anyways as he was already thought up and built. Like pretty much everything else I do, it grew and developed a lot on its own. I don't have written outlines of any of these stages, but I think all along it was the same idea - a routine investigation that wound up spiraling downhill as allegiances slowly unfolded, culminating in a terrorist plot. It's similar in idea to 64, but in a lot of ways it's the most isolated of the arc. A lot of major players have been introduced in full, and the exact nature of the Employer's plan has been further lain out. However, that all comes to light rather by accident, where a lot of the future quests will be more involved.

I'll be honest, this quest nearly didn't happen. I'm a notorious procrastinator, and while I didn't want to force someone else through the long session I went through to get 64 ready, I myself never really got around to serious building. After looking back at 64, I convinced myself that I couldn't simply let the arc end there and went back into development mode, and pumped out an outline of the quest.

Sign-Ups

Group over the Crystalline to Duplovia, Discussion with Somoril

Heat out to the caves

-Norgh Wildmen fight

Encounters with Duplovian and Delfrin miners. Duplovian miners are insane from an attack seemingly by Delfrin, and start a fight with the heroes before calming down, mention how Warrior is gone. Delfrin miners are calmer, mention how they were attacked by the Archer. Mention Legend of Jadek Marr.

Once heroes have met with both miners, they move onto a main mine center. Three mine shafts branch out, the shallowest seems to be blocked. Left path leads to Warrior, who must fight Archer’s First soldiers to get weapons and gear. To the right is Shagrukh, who discusses betrayal of Uglrukh and other Norgh.

With the pieces in place, the Heroes use Shagrukh’s mining and Warrior’s connection with the dead to get past blocked mine. They walk into main mine, where they fight with the Archer and his cronies. They run off in different directions. Chained up is Delfrin Miner and Tim. Neither can fight, because the amount of NPCs so far is too stanging high. They drop clues and exposition and something like they’re Mr. Verres.

Pursuit of the three Archers leads to several twists and turns. It becomes gradually clear that Morcrass is in charge of the operation, trying to tear apart the Delfrin/Duplovia alliance. More than that, he is organizing the revolution of Norghs who feel oppressed, and Morcrass’ tunnel base is set up in old Delfrin tunnels originally used to secretly supply the Siege of Duplovia. It goes directly under the castle. Warrior is captured during fight with Uglrukh in order to get Morcrass up into the castle to take over the throne.

Final battle occurs in the tunnel reaching up the throne room, rescuing Warrior, and fighting the Archer trio. The Archer himself as well as Morcrass escape through a mine cart. Somoril suggests not fighting them, despite Eyric’s suggestions otherwise.

Obviously a lot changed since then. It took me a while to give proper names to people, so many are simply given monikers like 'Warrior' for Dovanna. Another clear change is which NPCs go where and with who. Shagrukh was supposed to be a much larger character, but I found his interactions fell flat and it was probably best to leave him. Bardrick and Tim, likewise were to be left behind, but I felt they had useful experience, and wound up joining. Lachterson didn't even exist until late in the planning stage when I realized the lack of a sympathetic Delfrin soldier, and how important that would be. Also, you'll see note to Dovanna's 'connection with the dead'. There was originally some necromancer stuff that Dovanna would bring in to help with a puzzle, but it wound up being entirely unnecessary after that, so it was cut. In addition, originally the players would encounter Morcrass in the mine, but he was removed to heighten the intrigue in the epilogue.

As for the quest itself, I definitely have my misgivings. For one, it should have been at least half as long - I am partially at fault here, but I'm also surprised that for the majority of the quest only half the party was active. That... that shouldn't happen. I totally understand if things come up, like they did for FDY at the end, but otherwise I do appreciate activity. It was admittedly difficult to push forward with a two-person party, and while I feel it was worth it, this quest certainly could have gone by faster.

All that said, there were parts of this quest I enjoyed. Siercon was constantly innovative, which surprised me. I haven't seen much of Siercon before this, so seeing him consistently push the boundaries was splendid. Thalion also was as cautious and curious as before, but he's been weighed down a lot since 64. I love seeing the subtle development in characters like that. William was a great character to have along, and I do apologize that you were unable to be around for the finale! Alexander, when he was around, was insightful as before. You were distrustful of the Archer before, and I was excited to see that came around but sadly nothing was mentioned of it. I'm a little shocked at how often you dropped off without a word. I don't what was the cause of all that, but I do hope it was a fluke and you see to it that you're more active in the future.

All around, not the best quest, but I think it certainly had its high notes. There was a lot of discussion about the morality of what was going on, which I think was really cool. I was surprised at how easily you saw to the heart of everything, knowing immediately there was more going on than old resentment coming back. I do look forward to the next piece of this arc and seeing how you all will react. As mentioned before, this next quest is largely in Delfrin, and would definitely appreciate it if someone could help build the city.

Until then, thanks to all of you for taking part and sticking through!

[Zepher]

Before we all start complimenting Sandy on the latest set of quests, I'm like to commend you on a well done quest, Legonator! I think we're really starting to get a feel for Duplovia and Delfrin, and I thought the quest evolved extremely organically once the heroes were down in the mines. The situation spiraled out of control in a very believable way, and I think you did a nice job balancing out all the sides so that neither Delfrin nor Duplovia seemed at fault. The actual natives too seemed to be perfectly reasonable in siding with the big bads - they have been caught in wars again, and they're tired of it. That makes sense, and did just come out naturally. The shifting allegiances of various characters made sense as more information was revealed to them, and allowed them to serve as both heroes and then allies believably. I'll have to give it a little re-read and take a look at the characters - I'd say if you were to improve anything it would be to maybe make them more different and stand out, because none (beyond the archer, who I actually really enjoyed) stand out an enormous amount. It's only our second visit to Duplovia, and I'm very excited to go back, but I do hope we get to see more sides of Rone and Co. Other than that, I thought you did a really nice job, and plan to give it a reread because there was a bit in the middle where I got too busy to really follow along exactly.

[Flipz]

I think the hardest thing for me regarding your Quests, Legonater, are that they can be a little slow to follow. Part of it's your parties, of course, but some of it is pacing--there ends up being a lot of time (pages, post lengths, and literal time) in between the plot points, making them harder to follow. I'm re-reading through 64 now, and I keep finding myself having to go back to previous pages to remind myself who a certain character is, what the Heroes are doing, what their overall goal is, etc. I expect that out of a Quest in progress, but it's a bit of a curveball trying to read through 64 and 113.

I'll also echo Zepher's sentiments about characters--while I love that these characters are part of a military organization (and thus act like members of a military would, including wearing proper identical uniforms), part of that similarity in visual design means that they need to stand out even more in dialogue, so the readers can remember who is who. Aves and Quellir, in particular, are difficult to tell apart in both Quests, while Dovanna was the most confusing one in 113, getting confused for both Quellir and Dovanna in my mind at different points. The reason I bring this up is that despite this trouble, I always knew who Eyric was, even though tonally and personality-wise he was almost indistinguishable from Quellir.

That said, I love the setting, I love the overall tone and plotline of your Quests, I'd just prefer them to be a tad more accessible.

I'll post my thoughts on 120 later.

[Kintobor]

I enjoyed 119 for what it was. It had a solid setup, some fun characters, and I also enjoyed the sleuthing aspect for what it was worth. It's what I sort of hoped Marketplace Mystery would've been, but that's beside the point.

Sets were awesome, enough said.

I really enjoyed the first battle, and while the second wasn't great, it was at least passable. I really enjoyed the tactic behind the Spirits, and I loved the specials! It would've been tough against higher level opponents, since heroes seem to love jamming as many gems into their weapons as humanly possible, but here it served as a rather well thought out and still challenging fight! The battle against Caldera was... well, it wasn't bad. I get where you were going with it, but in the end it just seemed to be Lee beating everyone to a pulp, but it at least wasn't unfair in any way. You balanced Caldera out, so I'm not that miffed about it. I'll also admit there were moments where I legitimately felt pressured. Maybe that's because of Annie's personality, but there were moments I felt legitimately worried about making a mistake or screwing up with my words, especially around Jun. It just seemed to be a tense quest.

I guess there's only two real things I want to complain about, and while one's not that important, the other I feel did hamper the quest. First off was loot. It was good, but I'm realizing now as a knight just how few shields there actually are out there. I felt most of the loot from the first fight went to Warlen, and the second wasn't bad, it just seemed to be focused on a higher level party. Again, not the worst thing ever, but not the best. The one thing I do want to complain about was that eventually the quest did drag, and did feel a little repetitive. Perhaps some extra photos of Bullsworth's place would've helped, but the last investigation felt a little long. I know the holidays may have something to do with it, but again, that's the only really legitimate complaint I have about the quest besides the fact I felt that perhaps the Bonapartes are continually being portrayed as a bunch of schemers, bullies, and backstabbers, but again, there were NPCs that did help lean against that fact. Bullsworth seemed relatively loyal to the house, and also the kind I'd expect from the house, and although Oberro was harsh, I got why he was so too. He's seen his house name tarnished, and floundered about that he'd want to weed out the schemers and the backstabbers. I guess we just need some more positive showing of house Bonaparte, because every time we see them they're almost always being antagonistic.

Bottom line, it was a really good quest with a few things that hampered it from being great, but I'm glad I got on it. Thanks for the quest, Sandy, I had a lot of fun.

[CMP]

I have similar thoughts as Kintobor. I really enjoyed the quest. The second battle was only unbalanced because you just straight-up transfered Lee's stats from Quest 75. I know it's not quite authentic but I'm not afraid to rebalance NPCs for certain parties - and this is sort of why. (And shut up about the loot, at least you can use that cutlass, I got nothing )

I also agree about the Bonapartes, and I really hope Obero stays on to whip his house into shape. My next quest is the last in which I'll kicking the Bonaparte's policies, I kinda feel bad for helping to spur that on.

I really loved the party interaction, too.

[Kintobor]

Quick question/info gathering: I've been watching LOG HORIZON on and off recently, and some of the things that happen in the show made me wonder about their potential implications in our little game. So the question I want to ask you guys is this:

How do you guys feel about a Raid Boss style quest, and if one were to happen, what would you like to see in it?

[Cutcobra]

Quick question/info gathering: I've been watching LOG HORIZON on and off recently, and some of the things that happen in the show made me wonder about their potential implications in our little game. So the question I want to ask you guys is this:

How do you guys feel about a Raid Boss style quest, and if one were to happen, what would you like to see in it?

Wasn't that basically the Threshold Monsters in FoG?

[Sandy]

Thank you for the compliments!

I guess there's only two real things I want to complain about, and while one's not that important, the other I feel did hamper the quest. First off was loot. It was good, but I'm realizing now as a knight just how few shields there actually are out there. I felt most of the loot from the first fight went to Warlen, and the second wasn't bad, it just seemed to be focused on a higher level party. Again, not the worst thing ever, but not the best. The one thing I do want to complain about was that eventually the quest did drag, and did feel a little repetitive. Perhaps some extra photos of Bullsworth's place would've helped, but the last investigation felt a little long. I know the holidays may have something to do with it, but again, that's the only really legitimate complaint I have about the quest.

On retrospect, I should have made you fight the third battle against YoWoB as well, but I figured you would've only thrown a Smoke Bomb and escaped, not wanting to beat up teenagers. You didn't really push them far enough, either. It would have had some more suitable loot, too.

Grant Bullsworth

Type: Humanoid

Level: 6

Health: 35/35

Special: Gang Up – Causes 6 damage added to the amount of allies still standing to the target.

Drops: 6 gold, Red Leather Coat (Max Health +3; makes the wearer cool in the eyes of youth; bodywear)

Cary Bullsworth

Type: Humanoid

Level: 4

Health: 28/28

Special: Cower – Hides for the remainder of the round, becoming unable to be targeted.

Drops: 4 gold, Swift Boots (Changes HIDE into STEAL & HIDE, allowing the wearer to steal gold equal to the target’s level if it carries gold in addition to hiding; suitable to rogues; footwear)

Ty Rocksom

Type: Humanoid

Level: 5

Health: 33/33

Special: Boast – Causes the afraid-effect to the target.

Drops: 5 gold

Glimmer Minegold

Type: Humanoid

Level: 3

Health: 32/32

Special: Scream – Causes the confused-effect to the target.

Drops: 3 gold, Gold Ring (worth 15 gold; can be given to someone to make them enamored with the giver)

Reeta Greaves

Type: Humanoid

Level: 5

Health: 29/29

Special: Uproar – Rouses all allies, increasing their level by one.

Drops: 5 gold

Feldir

Type: Humanoid

Level: 3

Health: 26/26

Special: Slapfight – Causes 3 damage and the stunned-effect to the target.

Drops: 3 gold

Krasch

Type: Humanoid

Level: 4

Health: 34/34

Special: Throw Stone – Causes 4 earth-elemental damage to the target, regardless of row.

Drops: 4 gold

Janeane

Type: Humanoid

Level: 3

Health: 22/22

Special: Ankle Bite – Causes 3 damage and the bound-effect to the target.

Drops: 3 gold

For curiosity's sake, had you sided with the Bonaparte at the Merry Mermaid, Hooks would have joined your party and you would've gone against Lee and the two Ji Pei guards.

Ji Pei Pikeman

Type: Humanoid

Level: 8

Health: 56/56

Special: Piercing Spear – Causes 8 damage to the target regardless of defense.

Drops: Ji Pei Glaive (WP:8, doubled if the user has reputation among the Ji Pei; spear)

And as a last secret, had you satisfied Blackgull in all three cases, Xsenna would have given you a copy of the Begone with the Winds as a bonus reward. I don't know if it's unfair to reveal that after the quest is over, but at least now the people who want to become Weather Mages know which NPC to be kind towards.

[CMP]

I figured we'd be getting some kind of reward for doing all three cases. Oh well.

[Wedge09]

About Quest 113:

first I enjoyed the setting, done in a mine, and from what I saw suggests enough of what could be, it will be ineteresting seeing the end of all of this. The slow pace was in part of my fault, in the month were Quest 113 take place I went through a few big changes and these made me lost track of EB and not only, so I've never been in my better shape and I'm sorry for my fellow questies for slowing down all. I never quested with Siercon and I was impressed by her moving and what she said, always insightfull, look forward to quest with her again.

I think I hand't more to say, thank you for hosting it Legonator; now let's see if I will be accepted in Sandy's short quest then we will see!

[Zepher]

I went ahead and did it!

Remember how I said that I liked those old days, years ago, where people posted some of the NPCs of upcoming quests (remember what a big deal it was when Sandy first posted the images of the houses?!). Well, here they are. These are quite a few of the final NPCs you heroes have yet to meet in Zepher quests... and a few old faces, if you can spot them.

This dangerous crew of treasure hunters:

This fearsome trio of Warrior Priests:

and these two surviving Old Gods:

Add to that the enormous number of NPCs still left alive from previous quests... well, let's just say I keep telling Sandy to kill off characters (or at least change up the status quo), but I realized I haven't killed off anyone major since the final Wren Quest! And I expect my final few outings to be a little bloodier.

[The Chosen Minifigure]

Damn. Kintobar used all of my comments up!

I... Yeah, I totally agree with her.

Like, I've re-read it 3 times and still can't think of anything new to add. Sorry.

[Scubacarrot]

Add to that the enormous number of NPCs still left alive from previous quests... well, let's just say I keep telling Sandy to kill off characters (or at least change up the status quo), but I realized I haven't killed off anyone major since the final Wren Quest! And I expect my final few outings to be a little bloodier.

What you need to do is take some people that are not actually that involved in your storylines who have absolutely no problems killing off your npc's.

[bionicle_fanatic]

@Zeph: I think I see Zane there... [:O] [:D] [:P]

[Endgame]

The frayed cape adds a lot of character to MoR, but I suspect that's just it being aged, not something intentional.

[Zepher]

It's intentional in that I chose it, but didn't fray it on purpose.

[Emjajoas]

So we're pretty much in the last leg of 121 and, surprisingly, I don't have much to say.

Actually, that's not entirely true-- it's more like I don't know what to say. Or where to start. Or how to apologize for that shameful performance.

First and foremost-- I'd like to apologize to everyone who had to deal with my dumb ideas. It was irresponsible and just plain stupid of me to try to come up with stuff without consulting anyone else. Second, I'd like to apologize to anyone who read the quest. It wasn't nearly what I had hoped for and other than some of the golden party interactions, it can't have been that good a read. And, most importantly, I'd like to apologize to all of my players. The quest was a trainwreck. There is nothing I can say that excuses that quest. This quest felt like playing a song-- I hit the first note (because I think Charleton's an okay NPC) but the rest of the quest just didn't sound right. It was flat; I played the notes in a terrible order. It didn't sound nice, it didn't look nice, it wasn't any fun.

I'm incredibly disappointed in it. I picked the party I did more for the interaction I thought the players would have than their strength in battle. And there was some great player interaction in there. If you'd like player breakdowns, I can do them, but I don't have much to say about that-- you were all pretty great. There were a few golden moments that I really liked, and even if this quest was awful, your characters helped it shine just a little bit. The party itself was awesome.

This exchange, in particular, is one I love, and that still makes me laugh:

"Hmm.. he doesn't have a nose either. "

"Nor... do you..."

But I'm disappointed in myself for not giving you the experience you deserved and that I had planned.

I overcomplicated things. I overcomplicated things for myself and for everyone else. I ended up burning myself out and cutting quite a few of the other scenes I had planned-- I cut out roughly a third of the quest, because honestly I didn't want to force you folk to be on a quest that wasn't fun for you and I didn't want to keep it going if I wasn't enjoying it, either.

The battles were easy. I underestimated time and time again how powerful the party was. I have no excuse for the last battle-- I didn't give enough thought in balancing it and it ended up being a sick joke. I mean, the entire quest was, but that one part in particular was especially bad.

I don't really have much to say aside from apologies. I don't have any excuses.

A big thank you for bearing with me, and sorry to have given you all a terrible finished product.

I don't intend for this to be my last quest. For the immediate future, yes-- but not forever. This was a learning experience, for sure, and one that I won't need to repeat.

Again, really sorry, everyone. Hopefully next time around it won't be nearly as bad.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Emjajoas

[UsernameMDM]

Don't be so rough on yourself. Learn from it and just do better next time. Thanks for picking Hoke.

What part did you cut out?

[Scubacarrot]

I think you are being too hard on yourself. Sure the blacksmith was too complicated and some of the items were worded a bit poorly, no big deal. If you have an idea but you are not sure how and if it will work, your best bet is just to ask in the R&D topic or Sandy or someone else.

I had fun, the battles were easy. Too easy, but it was fun slicing through the enemies, and to be fair difficult battles would have been pretty hard to balance between easy and boring for this particular party.

I'm glad I got to go on your quest and look forward to your next one.

[Emjajoas]

Don't be so rough on yourself. Learn from it and just do better next time. Thanks for picking Hoke.

What part did you cut out?

Originally after the Ironwill attacked the Overwatch tower, Ambrose was supposed to get captured and brought back to an Ironwill base. There would've been a few more battles and some puzzles; more optional loot. The party was also going to have a chance of entering Marcellus' mansion-- I wanted to give the dynamic between him and Barus a lot more fleshing-out than I was able to. I wanted Barus to say something to the heroes originally, and then have the heroes overhear Marcellus scolding him about it later.

The sewers themselves were also supposed to be maze-like and explorable, with loot pockets hidden in back corners and a small battle in there with a crocodile or some other sewer-dweller. That would've been really cool, but it ended up being. A little bit too much.

I didn't develop any of my NPCs nearly enough, either, so I suppose you could consider that cut, as well. I had a lot more planned as far as leading up to future quests, but ended up knocking a lot of that out. I won't be going back to the Low Kingdoms for a while.

[UsernameMDM]

Sounds like it would have been great! Did you actually have this all planned out or were you trying to wing it?

[Emjajoas]

I had all of it planned out, actually, aside from the drops in the sewer and what battle I was going to have in the sewer. I didn't have solid sets (rough ones, yes, but nothing detailed) built for the rest of the places (they would've been overwhelming, I'm not a huge fan of LDD but don't have an alternative), but I had all the possible battles planned and even bits of dialogue/interaction between certain NPCs. My planning sheet for this quest was something like a 15-20 page google doc that was supposed to have everything I thought I needed.

The only thing I "winged" (aside from the early ending) was the smith-- he was always part of the plan, but the custom weapons thing and all that was something I thought of on a whim.

[Zepher]

I agree that all of that sounds good. I actually had a good time reading 121. I like the way you've fleshed out the Lower Kingdoms - they are a dirty brutal place, but no one seems to be out of line. Even though you cut a lot of the "fleshing out of NPCs" both forces seemed to be justified - Marcullus needed that land, and the Ironwill wanted to protect their people. The Overwatch were also just doing their jobs. Even if a lot of the stuff was cut, the thought that they would have lent the quest survived - so perhaps it is best that they were cut a little, as a lot of the information was still communicated (though most of it sounds good in my opinion).

If I have to be honest, I'm not surprised you became a little disillusioned with the quest. As a fellow QM, I have to say that I would have been a little disheartened by the party. I like every single member of the party, and I like all the players too, but I guess there was a bad combination somewhere in there, because I felt that the players and PCs were disrespectful to the quest. The whole deal with the blacksmith was a mess, sure, but that happens. The disrespectful angry way the PCs reacted really put a negative spin on the quest. I felt the entire time that the PCs were unwilling to engage with the potentially enjoyable story being offered to them. They were just violent and rude to every NPC, no attempt to build real relationships, or to figure out what was happening, or to accept the information offered to them, or even to pick up on story directions and to build on the work they'd done with their own PCs in the past (Dyric being the exception). I would become disheartened as well. Theres a reason that Heroica is a collaborative experience. That being said, Guts and Pretzel and Hoke and Alexandre and Nu Nerwen can all be a little callous, so maybe it was just a bad party dynamic, but in all honesty I think it was on the party more than you. Again, I love all the characters individually, have enjoyed hosting nearly all of them, and would host them again, but I guess just not this way.

Good quest, best of luck next time around, and I don't think you should blame yourself that much.

If there's any blame to be placed on you, it's for not upping the battle difficulty enough. That was a lot of nice drops for no cost. Guts and Hoke and the Alchemist class and the Minstrel in general are wildly unbalanced, so make the enemies effing tough.

[UsernameMDM]

Well if you had it really planned/mapped out, you should have let us play it.

[CMP]

If I have to be honest, I'm not surprised you became a little disillusioned with the quest. As a fellow QM, I have to say that I would have been a little disheartened by the party. I like every single member of the party, and I like all the players too, but I guess there was a bad combination somewhere in there, because I felt that the players and PCs were disrespectful to the quest. The whole deal with the blacksmith was a mess, sure, but that happens. The disrespectful angry way the PCs reacted really put a negative spin on the quest. I felt the entire time that the PCs were unwilling to engage with the potentially enjoyable story being offered to them. They were just violent and rude to every NPC, no attempt to build real relationships, or to figure out what was happening, or to accept the information offered to them, or even to pick up on story directions and to build on the work they'd done with their own PCs in the past (Dyric being the exception). I would become disheartened as well. Theres a reason that Heroica is a collaborative experience. That being said, Guts and Pretzel and Hoke and Alexandre and Nu Nerwen can all be a little callous, so maybe it was just a bad party dynamic, but in all honesty I think it was on the party more than you. Again, I love all the characters individually, have enjoyed hosting nearly all of them, and would host them again, but I guess just not this way.

That's the vibe I was getting too.

Well if you had it really planned/mapped out, you should have let us play it.

You guys didn't look like you were enjoying what you were playing, to be honest.