Heroica RPG - Quest Masters' Lounge

[UsernameMDM]

You guys didn't look like you were enjoying what you were playing, to be honest.

Because it felt clunky, cluttered and unplanned/winged. If you're going to QM a quest, have the quest ready to be played BEFORE it starts.

Plus there was a lack of QM participation for awhile there. It was a frustrating experience, that could have been made right.

[CMP]

Because it felt clunky, cluttered and unplanned/winged. If you're going to QM a quest, have the quest ready to be played BEFORE it starts.

Plus there was a lack of QM participation for awhile there. It was a frustrating experience, that could have been made right.

So you're complaining that your frustrating experience should've been longer?

I'm not saying it was the players' fault, but a little more understanding probably would've been appreciated. Shortening the quest was probably a good call.

[UsernameMDM]

So you're complaining that your frustrating experience should've been longer?

It was getting better when Emo was actually updating. I understand the embarrassment of the smith, but that's beans really. All the stuff he listed that he had planned could've made up for that, but again, it didn't sound like he was really prepared.

[Emjajoas]

Because it felt clunky, cluttered and unplanned/winged. If you're going to QM a quest, have the quest ready to be played BEFORE it starts.

Plus there was a lack of QM participation for awhile there. It was a frustrating experience, that could have been made right.

You're completely right, it did feel clunky and cluttered. And I'm sorry it did. I put a lot of work into planning it, but I didn't streamline it enough. Because of all the work I put into it, I thought it was ready, but looking back now I know I wasn't. And I can see how that's a really frustrating experience. It was a frustrating experience for me, too. I felt like I should've been doing a lot better, but I wasn't. I definitely don't blame you players for being frustrated and realize that I'm to blame for that.

Which is why the best way I thought to make it right was to end the quest as soon as possible. End it and move on; end it and get in a new, fresh state of mind. Slowly plan my next one. Slowly work on all the sets. Slowly work hard and streamline everything and plan everything and then when it's ready, have it entirely ready. Have it solid.

I don't think I was wrong in ending it when and where I did. All my unused planning can be put to use in future quests. This one didn't work out; I see it as saving some potentially cool things for later, because I felt that now wasn't a good time to flesh them out.

[The Legonater]

I enjoyed it, for the most part, but I definitely got the feeling that at least some of the others didn't. I'm not sure if there's anyone or anything specifically to blame here, it was a great quest idea and a solid party, but somehow or another on both ends a lot of elements just didn't click into place like they should have. I don't have any real solid advice on how that could be fixed, but I think that's where it stands.

[Flipz]

I agree that all of that sounds good. I actually had a good time reading 121. I like the way you've fleshed out the Lower Kingdoms - they are a dirty brutal place, but no one seems to be out of line. Even though you cut a lot of the "fleshing out of NPCs" both forces seemed to be justified - Marcullus needed that land, and the Ironwill wanted to protect their people. The Overwatch were also just doing their jobs. Even if a lot of the stuff was cut, the thought that they would have lent the quest survived - so perhaps it is best that they were cut a little, as a lot of the information was still communicated (though most of it sounds good in my opinion).

If I have to be honest, I'm not surprised you became a little disillusioned with the quest. As a fellow QM, I have to say that I would have been a little disheartened by the party. I like every single member of the party, and I like all the players too, but I guess there was a bad combination somewhere in there, because I felt that the players and PCs were disrespectful to the quest. The whole deal with the blacksmith was a mess, sure, but that happens. The disrespectful angry way the PCs reacted really put a negative spin on the quest. I felt the entire time that the PCs were unwilling to engage with the potentially enjoyable story being offered to them. They were just violent and rude to every NPC, no attempt to build real relationships, or to figure out what was happening, or to accept the information offered to them, or even to pick up on story directions and to build on the work they'd done with their own PCs in the past (Dyric being the exception). I would become disheartened as well. Theres a reason that Heroica is a collaborative experience. That being said, Guts and Pretzel and Hoke and Alexandre and Nu Nerwen can all be a little callous, so maybe it was just a bad party dynamic, but in all honesty I think it was on the party more than you. Again, I love all the characters individually, have enjoyed hosting nearly all of them, and would host them again, but I guess just not this way.

Good quest, best of luck next time around, and I don't think you should blame yourself that much.

If there's any blame to be placed on you, it's for not upping the battle difficulty enough. That was a lot of nice drops for no cost. Guts and Hoke and the Alchemist class and the Minstrel in general are wildly unbalanced, so make the enemies effing tough.

I agree with this analysis. There's a term amongst the D&D community for this sort of thing; it's called being murderhobos, and it's very much looked down on. While I completely understand a Quest being flimsy (I've been learning a lot of hard lessons myself on 118), there's still a responsibility on the player end to try their best to engage with what they can. There were a few delays and snags, true, but I feel like the Questies didn't give you a fair chance to work things out, especially considering that you're a newer QM.

It did need a little time, and a bit more polish, but again that's understandable. Above all, don't be afraid to ask other QMs for advice. If, for example, you had PM'd me or Zepher or Pie about the smithy, all of us would have told you to double-check with Sandy, but we also probably could have alerted you to the concept Scuba used in 96, saving you a lot of time and embarrassment. I'm utterly obsessed with this game (if a bit less recently than I used to be), but I've still ended up leaning a lot on Zepher and Pie and WBD and JimBee for guidance, in addition to the assistance Sandy provides for all of us. Needing help isn't something to be ashamed of--it's an opportunity to reach out and enrich your ideas with outside insight and inspiration, and your Quests will usually be better for it.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Flipz

[Scubacarrot]

I just remembered. Something about the quest did bother me, and it's not Emja's fault. As soon as the blacksmith was posted, people started shouting in the R&D to get it fixed, and as a result, we got the version that no one actually ended up utilizing. Which is a shame, because it was obviously set up to be something quite cool. And I thought it was fine when I read it. (I read it after the first pricefix I think). I've personally been kind of hoping someone would pick up the weapon morph concept I used in 96, because I want to try Dragoon, which in turn would be much easier with my weapon available to me. Obviously I still can try out Dragoon, but after the 'people's fix', no weapon morphs. Instead of balancing out the kinks of the whole thing, it got shouted down into something quite useless.

We (the party) were quite obviously disappointed with that. The resulting cynical roleplay against the blacksmith ensued, there you go, Zepher, you've got what you call pcs being disrespectful to the quest.

Also. Alchemists aren't overpowered. Guts isn't overpowered.

[CMP]

Also. Alchemists aren't overpowered. Guts isn't overpowered.

Guts is overpowered.

Honestly, the only reason I was concerned about the blacksmith was a lot of the services were simply easy to abuse. I liked most of them but it would've been trivial for say, Guts to make Lifestealer deal poison by 100, which is an issue. It needed to be nerfed, but maybe it was by a little too much.

[Zepher]

As always, the majority is wrong and Scuba is right, and being nasty for the rest of the quest (and, hell, before that too) is justified.

I really think it was just a dynamic thing, in all honesty. I think all the characters are super strong, but there wasn't a good way for them to take the quest seriously. It would have taken some tweaking, which no one wanted to do. Perhaps it was just a dedication to role playing. Whatever it was, I stand by that I like all the characters bunches and they absolutely tore down the quest.

And more seriously, that sounds like excuses for poor behavior. You've hosted a few times, and I know you know how fun it can be when things are going well as well as how difficult it can be when things are not, especially if a party isn't cooperative. I'm surprised that you would excuse poor party behavior.

[Flipz]

I was also disappointed by the change to the blacksmith; I had really hoped that Em would have gone ahead and copied the 96 blacksmith wholesale so Guts could have tried Dragoon. It would have been a much better fit for the Quest than what actually ended up happening.

Don't be afraid to steal ideas from other QMs! Just because you can make up your own thing, doesn't mean you have to or should.

[Scubacarrot]

As always, the majority is wrong and Scuba is right, and being nasty for the rest of the quest (and, hell, before that too) is justified.

I really think it was just a dynamic thing, in all honesty. I think all the characters are super strong, but there wasn't a good way for them to take the quest seriously. It would have taken some tweaking, which no one wanted to do. Perhaps it was just a dedication to role playing. Whatever it was, I stand by that I like all the characters bunches and they absolutely tore down the quest.

And more seriously, that sounds like excuses for poor behavior. You've hosted a few times, and I know you know how fun it can be when things are going well as well as how difficult it can be when things are not, especially if a party isn't cooperative. I'm surprised that you would excuse poor party behavior.

I do not excuse anything, Zepher. I did realize I dragged out the comments on the blacksmith too much, it got old, and it was bad. That is totally my fault. For the rest, I don't want to speak for anyone else, but were we nasty for the rest of the quest? Because as far as I realized we were just along for the ride at that point.

And I am always right. It's one of my better qualities.

[Flipz]

As always, the majority is wrong and Scuba is right, and being nasty for the rest of the quest (and, hell, before that too) is justified.

I really think it was just a dynamic thing, in all honesty. I think all the characters are super strong, but there wasn't a good way for them to take the quest seriously. It would have taken some tweaking, which no one wanted to do. Perhaps it was just a dedication to role playing. Whatever it was, I stand by that I like all the characters bunches and they absolutely tore down the quest.

And more seriously, that sounds like excuses for poor behavior. You've hosted a few times, and I know you know how fun it can be when things are going well as well as how difficult it can be when things are not, especially if a party isn't cooperative. I'm surprised that you would excuse poor party behavior.

Yeah, I do get that a lot of these characters are amoral and gruff, and I like that about them, but from the word go the party's approach to NPCs seemed to be "do what we want, or else you die", almost in a way holding them hostage over the QM (do what we want or we'll kill all your NPCs). I don't know if that was intentional, or just a result of dynamic, but it definitely contributed a lot to the problems of the Quest. Speaking as a QM/DM, why would we want to build up a whole lot of rich characters and lore if the players' only interest is to utterly wreck it and tear it down as fast as possible?

[Scubacarrot]

Yeah, I do get that a lot of these characters are amoral and gruff, and I like that about them, but from the word go the party's approach to NPCs seemed to be "do what we want, or else you die", almost in a way holding them hostage over the QM (do what we want or we'll kill all your NPCs). I don't know if that was intentional, or just a result of dynamic, but it definitely contributed a lot to the problems of the Quest. Speaking as a QM/DM, why would we want to build up a whole lot of rich characters and lore if the players' only interest is to utterly wreck it and tear it down as fast as possible?

If that is the problem, I feel like as a QM you need to give solid options, reasons or otherwise for this not to happen. The instance where what you described happened was with the three npcs after the first battle. What else could we have done? Send the three suspicious characters on their merry way in the middle of a murder investigation?

[Zepher]

I did get a little bit of what Flipz is saying for the rest of the quest, to be perfectly honest. Overwatch very much felt "held hostage" to the point that Em felt the need to comment on it, and the wandering warrior got the same deal "stay away from us or you'll die". But I think it was a party dynamic thing. As always, I'm being a little hypocritical: I feel like someone should have changed their play style a little to accommodate it, but I'm not sure I would have.

[UsernameMDM]

Yeah, I do get that a lot of these characters are amoral and gruff, and I like that about them, but from the word go the party's approach to NPCs seemed to be "do what we want, or else you die", almost in a way holding them hostage over the QM (do what we want or we'll kill all your NPCs). I don't know if that was intentional, or just a result of dynamic, but it definitely contributed a lot to the problems of the Quest. Speaking as a QM/DM, why would we want to build up a whole lot of rich characters and lore if the players' only interest is to utterly wreck it and tear it down as fast as possible?

Did you even actually read the quest? Those NPCs were not fleshed out at all and direction from the QM was nil. Like I said earlier, clunky, cluttered and unplanned/winged. As a PC, I think it was disrespectful. "Hey guys, I picked you for a quest that isn't even done yet or well thought out."

[Scubacarrot]

Did you even actually read the quest? Those NPCs were not fleshed out at all and direction from the QM was nil. Like I said earlier, clunky, cluttered and unplanned/winged. As a PC, I think it was disrespectful. "Hey guys, I picked you for a quest that isn't even done yet or well thought out."

Do you have some suggestions for how you think Emja could have made it better?

I think you are being harsh.

[UsernameMDM]

Do you have some suggestions for how you think Emja could have made it better?

I think you are being harsh.

The quest actually ready/thought out/planned.

Not being mean/hateful (it REALLY is just a game), but, let's face it, it was, admittedly by Emja, a not ready/poorly planned quest, that there was not attempt to fix.

I would say in LDD, don't worry about making huge sets. The body in the alleyway would have been fine if it was a close-up of just the body and the wall it was leaning up against. If sets aren't ready, a nice description and pictures of the NPCs as the speak would have done just fine. Story/Content wins over anything else every time.

Also, when designing loot, don't make things over complicated/'fancy'. Nothing wrong with a nice ~10 WP weapon with a decent effect/element or an artefact with decent SP or an immunity. Having weapons with a chance to deal an effect just adds more rolls for other QMs. And what was the thought about Barus's armor?

Edited January 27, 2015 by UsernameMDM

[CMP]

Not being mean/hateful (it REALLY is just a game), but, let's face it, it was, admittedly by Emja, a not ready/poorly planned quest, that there was not attempt to fix.

Shortening the quest WAS the attempt at fixing it. You can't sprinkle pixie dust on a quest and make it better at the drop of a hat.

[UsernameMDM]

Shortening the quest WAS the attempt at fixing it. You can't sprinkle pixie dust on a quest and make it better at the drop of a hat.

Cop out to me. Putting a little more thought/effort is fixing it, not cutting your losses and giving up. He said there were more battles and loot, what PC doesn't like more battles and loot?

[CMP]

He said there were more battles and loot, what PC doesn't like more battles and loot?

Apparently you guys.

I'm kidding, but battles can be poorly designed just like anything else. Some of those in Quest 69 REALLY dragged on. Those in 121 were almost pointless for how quickly your party tore through them. QMs don't host quests just for the battles, and PCs shouldn't quest just for the battles either, there's a lot more effort behind making a quest than figuring out battles.

Edited January 27, 2015 by CallMePie

[Emjajoas]

And what was the thought about Barus's armor?

Barus' armour was designed to be like the armour I have on my PC right now. I liked the idea behind it and figured it fit thematically.

"Iron Knuckle Armour (Body, foot, and hand wear. Counts as one artefact. Usable by knights and dragoons. SP: 10. Cannot be removed by enemies)"

And although I do appreciate all the feedback I'm getting, I feel like this is turning into a bigger deal than it has to be. I really am ashamed that I ended up trying to run this quest without being entirely ready for it, and I know there is no reason I could make to excuse that. I appreciate everyone's input and insight, and I appreciate some of the fellow QMs for sticking up for me in a way, but I dug my own grave with this quest and I have nobody to blame but myself.

Any other questions/comments/concerns/criticism is 100% welcome in PM (and would be appreciated), but at this point I feel like we're mostly pointing fingers. Whether or not the players were right in how they handled their anger and disappointment doesn't change the fact that they were right to be angry and disappointed. They had and have every right to be-- the quest was a mess, and I am owning up to that. And in the future, I will do my best to improve and not have another trainwreck like this one.

Thank you to everyone who has already posted feedback; it's greatly appreciated and I'll be sure to come to you for advice when and if I host my next quest.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Emjajoas

[The Legonater]

Cop out to me. Putting a little more thought/effort is fixing it, not cutting your losses and giving up. He said there were more battles and loot, what PC doesn't like more battles and loot?

Again, what would you have done? You still haven't addressed that. You keep insisting that it could have been better planned. Clearly there was planning, but things went a different way than he expected. That's not poor planning, it's poor improvisation, and that takes experience to learn. When the party was clearly unsatisfied, he shortened it. There's no harm in that. Despite your insistence otherwise, I think you're taking this a bit too seriously.

[UsernameMDM]

Again, what would you have done? You still haven't addressed that. You keep insisting that it could have been better planned. Clearly there was planning, but things went a different way than he expected. That's not poor planning, it's poor improvisation, and that takes experience to learn. When the party was clearly unsatisfied, he shortened it. There's no harm in that. Despite your insistence otherwise, I think you're taking this a bit too seriously.

Already answered that: I would have had the quest READY before it started. It's not a complicated concept.

I am not taking it seriously, just providing a critique which I already PM'd Em about & he agreed. Maybe you shouldn't be so sensitive?

[UsernameMDM]

"Iron Knuckle Armour (Body, foot, and hand wear. Counts as one artefact. Usable by knights and dragoons. SP: 10. Cannot be removed by enemies)"

What is the advantage of an artefact that takes up 3 of 6 slots, but only counts as 1 artefact?

[CMP]

What is the advantage of an artefact that takes up 3 of 6 slots, but only counts as 1 artefact?

A lot of defense?