Heroica RPG - Quest Masters' Lounge

[The Chosen Minifigure]

I'm looking for a co-host for a quest to do the battles for me. Anyone interested?

[The Chosen Minifigure]

Soooo... no one wants to cohost with me?

[Duvors]

Soooo... no one wants to cohost with me?

If you elaborate on what you want this cohost to do maybe you'll get a more emphatic response.

[Zepher]

I'm looking for a co-host for a quest to do the battles for me. Anyone interested?

[JimBee]

I'd really encourage you to try doing the battles yourself. It's a big part of quest mastering, and as a first-time QM you should at least give it a shot before selling yourself short. You don't have to create your own enemies, either, because there are plenty of enemies from past quests that you could recycle or redesign to your liking. Rolling dice and keeping track of stats is easier than it looks, once you get used to it.

[joeshmoe554]

I can help manage the battles if you want.

[JimBee]

Alright, 118...

I'll just come out and say that I didn't really enjoy it. I was looking forward to a Flipz quest after the success of 104, but there seemed to be several things lacking in this one that 104 did really well in. Most of all, I felt that the quest was very railroaded. Sure, we had the choice to visit the village locations in any order we wanted, but in the end that really didn't matter at all. We didn't get to interact with any NPCs until the very end, and that surely demotivated us from saying anything to each other. We just slogged through, finding note after note. I get now that the notes were supposed to be Red Herrings, but to begin with I didn't really think much of them because they didn't prompt us to think about anything critically. They basically just told us what was going on without any input of our own - no mystery solving, no getting to the bottom of things, no interrogating NPCs... just a 4-month slog through wordless battles to advance to the next stage of the quest. At about the halfway mark I really just wanted to finish the quest and get out, and I think that resulted in some lackluster roleplaying in the end.

Second, the plot was intriguing, particularly at the end, but I still can't really wrap my head around it. What happened to the village people? Did the golems kill all of them or vice versa while the heroes' golem selves finished off whoever was left? There was really nothing we could do to stop that. The clues were there, but the quest felt so boring that they didn't seem to matter and I pretty much lost track of everything halfway through. Everything, from the notes and diary entries to the golems not being able to talk/suddenly able to talk to the fact that there was really no sense of accomplishment or consequence, really confused me and in the end made me just give up and not really care about what happened next. Other PCs not caring added to this, too.

Another part of it was the fact that we weren't getting regular updates a lot of the time. I understand that you've been going through some real life difficulties Flipz, and I know how hard it can be to host a quest. That doesn't take away from the fact that the quest felt much longer than it needed to be - in the future I would suggest expediting some parts or just making your plots less complicated overall.

A few positives I found in this quest were the battles and the loot. The battles were very difficult, but still pretty well-balanced. They were a headache to strategize for, and I would suggest less repeats of the enemies to avoid monotony, but other than that it was a clever idea to use PC classes for enemy stats. The loot was balanced because it was mostly vendor trash, consumables or gold, along one or two rare weapons or artifacts. The pictures, when available, were also nice, so kudos to Flipz and any builders that helped.

All in all, I'd say it was a good idea on paper, but not very well executed or otherwise too complicated and long. Especially for a quest that seemed like it would be short and sweet like the other Halloween quests. I hope you can take this as constructive feedback and not me bashing your quest, but these were my honest thoughts. I'd consider going on another quest of yours if you really made sure that it would be simple and streamlined. Too many variables thrown in was a problem (albeit less of one) in 104 as well. When planning for your next quest, I'd take a good long look at what you have in mind, and think about how many variables are included. It doesn't need to be a mystery novel to be good.

Thank you for hosting, though. As a QM and player I can appreciate the effort it took no matter the outcome, so well done for sticking to it and following through to its completion.

[Flipz]

All right, so first things first: 118 was, in a lot of ways, me going all M. Night Shaymalan, in some good but mostly bad ways. (Think "The Last Airbender" more than "The Sixth Sense".)

One thing that I think has shown up throughout the Halloween Anthology (wow has it ever gone on way long) is that traditional horror doesn't go over well in Heroica. Traditional horror relies on the cycle of tension and release, and generally relies on the audience/player feeling helpless and afraid. That...didn't go over well in 118, and notably the best Quests of the Anthology (114 and 116) didn't use this style to fuel themselves, opting instead for a subtler, more retrospective horror after the fact. My method ultimately amounted to taking control away from the players, and did so in a way that ultimately discouraged participation rather than encouraging interaction.

*Sigh*

I made a rookie mistake with 118: I hosted a concept, a predetermined string of events, rather than an explorable, malleable Quest.

The basic premise was, actually, surprisingly simple: a group of Heroes get knocked out, travel to a village, and clear it of the monsters who have taken it over, only to find out that they themselves are the monsters. Unfortunately, the bloat I ended up adding in the process of logic-ing the situation out resulted in an overlarge mess at a scale far bigger than I or my players wanted.

One of my big mistakes was the overemphasis on the "twist" ending. While the concept is interesting in theory, in practice this active secret-keeping (including keeping the number of battles secret) drives a wedge between players and QM, since from a player perspective there can seem to be no end in sight. For a Quest that's progressing swiftly, in which everyone is enjoying themselves, that can be all right, but even one misstep can turn an otherwise-fun battle into a slog if it seems like they'll never end. In fact, a lot of the criticisms I leveled at Sandy for 93 apply here to 118, and like Sandy with that Quest, I felt compelled simply to keep things going as best I could and try to get through them as fast as possible--resulting in a breakneck rush through probably the only halfway-decent part of the game.

I think another mistake I made was worrying too much about logic and building things by the rules. My favorite enemies and battles were the ones where I made stuff up myself--namely, the Golem Merchant family and the Civilian Golem Defender enemies (which I conglomerated into the mob in the rework). By limiting the enemies' health and Levels to a formulaic amount (the specific formula for Level was "2x WP of hypothetical drops + set Level", and the health was calculated off of that Level, their class, and the most logical base class for them), I ended up writing myself into a corner--I convinced myself I couldn't change their HP amounts to better suit the pace, so I ended up making a lot of slogging repetitive battles that were more about putting in time than effort.

Each of the battles was intended to advance the plot in a very specific way, but unfortunately none of them save the last had any real impact. The merchant family was intended to be the reveal of the monster, something that would have been built up to after the Heroes had already visited at least some of the other houses in town and read the mysterious notes. Ironically, by allowing freedom in that area, I ended up undercutting what was supposed to be the big hook of the first act, turning the rest of said act into a simple (and slow) scavenger hunt. I also feel I was a bit too generous with loot in this act--in particular, I ended up reworking the appearance of the Inn of the Wayward Angel to compensate for Hybros and Docken taking all of the apples instead of sharing them evenly with the party.

The battle at the tower entrance was again meant to remind the players of their goal, as well as serve as an introduction to enemies using ranged weapons. I had actually planned for the clerk in that battle to be a Scholar, but unintentionally copied the stats from my first draft of the battle (in which both he and Mayor Persephone were Rangers using throwing weapons), which screwed up my intended training sequence. Each battle from then on out was meant to introduce the players to a different type of enemy, culminating in the Final Four fight (with an Alchemist, Weather Mage, Skirmisher, and Scholar).

In another bit of cruel irony, one huge thing that was missing from Acts II and III was a sense of urgency. Act I was intended to be rather slow, to build up the tension of what awaited within the Tower. The brief, interrupted convo with the Final Four started to spark that urgency...right before I threw a half dozen enemy counterparts of the tankiest Heroes in the game at you. Like the Quest in general, the Skirmishers were a good idea on paper, but in practice they ended up being little threat whatsoever thanks to how easy it was to manipulate their AI, not to mention putting SP on back-row opponents just needlessly prolonged the battles. I honestly wish I'd had the idea to use the mobs from 108 sooner--WBD turned me on to them when I was trying to rework the sanctuary fight, and if I'd thought of using them sooner, I could have completely reworked the second act into something much quicker-moving.

Speaking of the Sanctuary battle, that was probably my biggest disappointment of the Quest. The whole point of Act II was to subtly turn the Heroes into hunters who would mercilessly hunt down the golems--so that once it was revealed that they were the townspeople, it would hit the players hard, in a "I [the player] should have figured this out sooner, how did I become a monster" sort of way. Ultimately, though, only Ellaria seemed to have that reaction to the events that happened, no doubt in part because of how heavy-handed I was with keeping things from you guys.

On the flip side, however, that was a somewhat frustrating facet--from about the merchant fight on, it often seemed like Ellaria and Hybros were the only ones interacting with the environment and trying to puzzle out what was going on. A lot of that had to do with me not giving you guys enough to do, I'm sure, but the lack of intra-party interaction was still disheartening. I was particularly surprised to see so little out of Doc in the battles, especially given how much that seemed to be Docken's big schtick. I also often found myself waiting for that one last party member a lot--if I ever host again in the future, I'll try to just move things on more frequently even without input from every single player, rather than trying to be so absolutely certain everyone gets their piece in.

Another thing I'm never doing again (again, if I ever try to get back into hosting) is leaving the players without NPCs to interact with. The idea was to create an atmosphere of isolation and powerlessness, but in the end it just distanced me even more from the players. It doesn't have to be as heavy an interaction as with Diana, but having some kind of NPC mouthpiece to speak through would have made the experience more enjoyable for all of us (even if, in this case, it would have inevitably resulted in blowing the twist super early).

Alright, 118...

I'll just come out and say that I didn't really enjoy it. I was looking forward to a Flipz quest after the success of 104, but there seemed to be several things lacking in this one that 104 did really well in. Most of all, I felt that the quest was very railroaded. Sure, we had the choice to visit the village locations in any order we wanted, but in the end that really didn't matter at all. We didn't get to interact with any NPCs until the very end, and that surely demotivated us from saying anything to each other. We just slogged through, finding note after note. I get now that the notes were supposed to be Red Herrings, but to begin with I didn't really think much of them because they didn't prompt us to think about anything critically. They basically just told us what was going on without any input of our own - no mystery solving, no getting to the bottom of things, no interrogating NPCs... just a 4-month slog through wordless battles to advance to the next stage of the quest. At about the halfway mark I really just wanted to finish the quest and get out, and I think that resulted in some lackluster roleplaying in the end.

*nods*

One of the reasons I ended up taking so long with the notes was because I ended up writing and re-writing them several times in an attempt to get you guys to pay more attention to them. Unfortunately, without an NPC to subtly hint that they would be important, you guys ended up mostly ignoring them. Looking back, I probably could have done more with Mallora being the narrator, though I think she suffered a lot because my perception of who she was as an NPC changed a few times in between the planning stage, the start of the Quest, and the end of the Quest.

Also, as you've pointed out, the plot (or more specifically, the backstory) was way too complex, meaning I had to convey a LOT in each note. This meant huge walls of text, with none of them really being all that interesting to read.

Second, the plot was intriguing, particularly at the end, but I still can't really wrap my head around it. What happened to the village people? Did the golems kill all of them or vice versa while the heroes' golem selves finished off whoever was left? There was really nothing we could do to stop that. The clues were there, but the quest felt so boring that they didn't seem to matter and I pretty much lost track of everything halfway through. Everything, from the notes and diary entries to the golems not being able to talk/suddenly able to talk to the fact that there was really no sense of accomplishment or consequence, really confused me and in the end made me just give up and not really care about what happened next. Other PCs not caring added to this, too.

To be fair, the plot had more holes than Swiss cheese, just because of how overcomplex it got. To summarize:

*Years and years ago, Amara's magical powers were revealed, and she was kicked out of the village.

*More recently, the Mayor received a threat toward "your daughter", and put the guards on high alert.

*He received a second threat making it clearer that Amara was the daughter they referred to, and meanwhile the guards couldn't handle the extra hours, which led to the alchemists trying to make golems to replace/reinforce the guards.

*The Mayor asked Amara to come home, and had people looking into ways to get around the whole "alchemists hate mages" thing.

*All of the above came together to set off the golems, with duplicates of the Final Four escaping. Having a tiny bit of advanced warning, the Mayor tried to get his people to safety in the Sanctuary (the golems were stored in the basement) and send Mallora to get help, but people panicked, causing the process to take longer than it should have.

*Amidst the panic, a few golems got loose into the Sanctuary and killed a few citizens, but for the most part the guards were successful in killing the golems that had slipped past the initial line.

*Outside town, the duplicates of the Final Four kidnapped Mallora and made doubles of the Heroes. The Heroes then chased down and killed the Final Four duplicates.

*When the Hero Golems entered the Tower, the noise distracted the guards long enough for some duplicates of the guards to start to escape. Said guards blew up the staircase into the basement (something they didn't want to do since it risked causing the Tower to collapse) and chased down their duplicates and killed them, but then the Hero Golems saw them standing over the golem corpses and killed the guards.

*The Hero golems slaughtered all of the other surviving townspeople, thinking them to be golems.

*The true Heroes arrived in town with Mallora, saw enough to realize something was systematically killing the survivors, and Mallora led them in the back entrance.

...yeah, even the summary is crazy complex. You're not the only one who lost track of things partway through.

Another part of it was the fact that we weren't getting regular updates a lot of the time. I understand that you've been going through some real life difficulties Flipz, and I know how hard it can be to host a quest. That doesn't take away from the fact that the quest felt much longer than it needed to be - in the future I would suggest expediting some parts or just making your plots less complicated overall.

A few positives I found in this quest were the battles and the loot. The battles were very difficult, but still pretty well-balanced. They were a headache to strategize for, and I would suggest less repeats of the enemies to avoid monotony, but other than that it was a clever idea to use PC classes for enemy stats. The loot was balanced because it was mostly vendor trash, consumables or gold, along one or two rare weapons or artifacts. The pictures, when available, were also nice, so kudos to Flipz and any builders that helped.

Agreed. Unfortunately, I'm in a poor position IRL to be able to build and photograph sets (and as you saw with the conclusion, even rendering them takes me a long time to get things right). I just can't stand building anymore, I don't enjoy designing and building my own ideas like I used to when I was younger, and as a result I have to rely on others to bring my imagination to light. Unfortunately, this means I'm also at the whims of other peoples' unreliability, which in turn affects my own reliability. I really appreciate what Pyro was able to accomplish for me, and I REALLY owe Scuba for stepping up to help me with some of the stuff later on, but at the end of the day if I can't count on myself to make sets, I can't make a commitment to regular updates, and that's the most important thing you have to be able to do when hosting--update regularly.

Of course, that's not the only reason, and I have no excuse for how slow things went throughout many other portions of the Quest (especially for things like the writing of the notes), and for that I'm sorry.

It's funny that you list battles and loot as some of the stronger elements of the Quest--I got the opposite impression, actually. While I'm glad I didn't introduce a lot of new items to the game, not adding anything special made loot generation a little boring for me (thus why we got a few small options like Jill's hair clip and the Scrolls the Scholars used but didn't drop). I did try to drop one or two major things for each character (the boots and Butcher's Cleaver were intended for Docken, the weapons from the second Huxley fight were obviously intended for Thormanil, the Wooden Mace and Cheat Sheet were intended for Ellaria, and the Emerald and scrolls were intended for Hybros). While much of the other vendor trash was okay on its own, I still feel like I dropped quite a lot of it, probably a bit too much if it weren't for how long the Quest dragged out. Battle-wise, I think the Sanctuary fight was my favorite to build and run--it was one of two fights where I really saw you guys engage, and I wish I could have provided that for you more often.

All in all, I'd say it was a good idea on paper, but not very well executed or otherwise too complicated and long. Especially for a quest that seemed like it would be short and sweet like the other Halloween quests. I hope you can take this as constructive feedback and not me bashing your quest, but these were my honest thoughts. I'd consider going on another quest of yours if you really made sure that it would be simple and streamlined. Too many variables thrown in was a problem (albeit less of one) in 104 as well. When planning for your next quest, I'd take a good long look at what you have in mind, and think about how many variables are included. It doesn't need to be a mystery novel to be good.

Thank you for hosting, though. As a QM and player I can appreciate the effort it took no matter the outcome, so well done for sticking to it and following through to its completion.

I completely agree. Even though I'm leaning against hosting it, my next planned concept is very simple, and I've devised it in such a way that I can pretty much guarantee the length of the Quest (for better or for worse ). I've learned a lot from hosting 118, I only wish I could have learned these lessons before dragging all of you through it.

Oh, and before I forget: congratulations on completely re-writing the ending! Originally, I'd planned on you killing the Final Four before the arrival of the real Heroes serving as The Reveal. Amara would have explained a couple things with her dying breath before the golem Heroes went berserk on the originals (another reason I had the Mayor drop a Scroll of Disenchantment--if you guys had decided to buff up when you realized the Quest wasn't over but before you realized you had been controlling the final boss all along, I wanted you to have a way to not get instagibbed ). That was actually another reason I decided to accept Scuba's offer to set-build and took Thormanil instead of Guts--I knew Scuba would be more active than Swils, but I also didn't want to put you guys up against Mirror Guts (because seriously, Guts and Docken duplicates against Heroes? Ain't nobody gonna win against that.). While I'm disappointed I wasn't able to get you guys to figure out a way to seriously threaten a Docken (), I am glad I got the chance to save some of my favorites of the many characters I made for this Quest (and yes, every single person in that town had some kind of backstory, even if it was just a four- or five-word phrase). So thank you, for making an ending that, while perhaps not the best, ended up being a lot better than what I had planned.

[swils]

First off, I seem to have fallen into a nasty rut, HRPG-wise. I still can't seem to get back into the RP side of things, and that's compounded by the fact that I'm completely overwhelmed by my course load this semester. Last semester wasn't as bad, but then I ended up working through winter break, and now, between senior design project and my other classes, I think I've got less free time now than I did when I was working 50+ hour weeks this past summer. I know that in the not-so-distant-past, I made it clear that my stance was "It's not fair to your fellow players and your QM if you can't remain active", and yet, here I am betraying that. I really do feel bad about it, and I think that the most I'll be doing for a while is joining a Fields run, if even that.

That said, I didn't not-enjoy the quest. The battles with the skirmishers really did seem artificially/needlessly dragged out, and there wasn't much opportunity to engage in even some back-and-forth quips at our foes in the battles (if I could have even mustered enough of that), but I don't think any of the fights were unfair. Loot seemed fine, too. I'm a huge advocate for vendor-trash/consumables.

I was actually looking forward to that tile-battle, even if it did seem really convoluted. I think it might have been better implemented if that had been the style for all the battles, though, or at least more than that initial close-quarters engagement. Introduce the mechanic slowly and then build in complexity/numbers so that we (I, at least) don't feel so overwhelmed by walking out of a hallway and into a firing range.

The reveal, the idea that we had been playing duplicates of ourselves, was actually something I toyed with a year or two ago, but never really pursued beyond a concept. All things considered, I think you executed it far better than I ever could have, heh. I'm still confused by the events of the beginning, though. Were we (our actual characters) captured and taken to the lab to be cloned? If I remember right, we took control of our golems just as they woke up in the clearing (the same clearing our actual characters had gotten jumped in) and gathered all of our equipment before setting off for town. Where were our actual characters? And didn't our actual characters return at the finale with Mallora, who had been kidnapped, apparently? That's the only bit of the plot that's still got me confused.

[Sandy]

All right, so first things first: 118 was, in a lot of ways, me going all M. Night Shaymalan, in some good but mostly bad ways. (Think "The Last Airbender" more than "The Sixth Sense".)

Come on, now. The quest wasn't horrible. It just wasn't structured in a way that really suited this kind of gaming. This was only your second quest, and if I make similar mistakes on my twentieth quest, you can surely be forgiven.

I'm not one to write in-depth analyses, but I can give you my personal pros and cons for this quest.

+ The ending hit home. Especially once I (almost) figured out what was going on. For me, it was the perfect "oh, that's what's going on!" moment you were probably looking for.

+ It was thematically sound, with the conflict of alchemy vs. magic carrying throughout the quest. And I finally got the reputation I wanted!

+ The notes were a nice addition to the quest, even though there were too many of them and they were often too long and obscure to really make sense.

+ The loot matched the difficulty of the battles.

- I feel there were too many battles and locations for the scope of the story.

- The battles started to feel repetitive because all we fought was golems - an endless stream of golems, most of which had the same annoying abilities.

- That original grid battle... I don't know how you expected us to survive those ranged enemies that could OHKO us long before we could even reach them? Even though Doc hosted a successful quest with that type of battle mechanic, doesn't mean it can be so easily adapted to any other quest as well.

- The story had some confusing plotholes. How could we (as golems) talk to the remaining survivors through the airvents, but not when we met them? Until suddenly we could talk to the mayor, after all? And how come even the children in the village packed a mean punch, if they weren't golems after all?

- I don't mind rail-roading, but we really didn't have any meaningful choices to make until the ending. No interactable NPCs hurt the quest as well.

But yeah, the quest was what it was, and now it is over. It wasn't the most enjoyable, but it wasn't beyond redemption either. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, eh?

[JimBee]

Flipz, those are some good self-criticisms. Despite the factors of this quest that fell short, I would really like to see another quest from you. 104 was really good from an outside perspective, and that's why I wanted in on 118 in the first place. Maybe you could use the lost Temple of Mercutio MOCs in another setting somehow.

I will also agree with swils about the last grid battle. I am so very glad that we did not have to struggle through that, for the sake of time and the fact that it looked like a headache to strategize around.

And also, the reveal was good. It was a twist that didn't quite save the efforts of the rest of the quest, but I didn't see it coming at all. If not for Ellaria I think we would've just massacred the whole town without blinking an eye and then headed home, wondering if we actually completed our mission.

[Yzalirk]

I have a quick question about quests that seems kind of odd, if you will. So, does every quest have to have at least one battle or multiple? If no,t could a quest be more "passive" in the sense there is more diplomacy and communication rather than dealing with enemies in a battle?

Of course, though, if the speech goes wrong, then a battle may be initiated. I figured I'd ask since this seems like an out-of-the-box idea.

[Cutcobra]

I have a quick question about quests that seems kind of odd, if you will. So, does every quest have to have at least one battle or multiple? If no,t could a quest be more "passive" in the sense there is more diplomacy and communication rather than dealing with enemies in a battle?

Of course, though, if the speech goes wrong, then a battle may be initiated. I figured I'd ask since this seems like an out-of-the-box idea.

No. A ques t could be passive. Quest #87 was like that and I liked it. Instead of battles for XP it had puzzles, and I think (I don't remember so I may be wrong) we could have battled the culprit.

[UsernameMDM]

I have a quick question about quests that seems kind of odd, if you will. So, does every quest have to have at least one battle or multiple? If no,t could a quest be more "passive" in the sense there is more diplomacy and communication rather than dealing with enemies in a battle?

Heroica RPG - Quest#87: The Marketplace Mystery

http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=88444

[Asphalt]

I have a quick question about quests that seems kind of odd, if you will. So, does every quest have to have at least one battle or multiple? If no,t could a quest be more "passive" in the sense there is more diplomacy and communication rather than dealing with enemies in a battle?

Of course, though, if the speech goes wrong, then a battle may be initiated. I figured I'd ask since this seems like an out-of-the-box idea.

So long as you are upfront about it in the description. Some folks might be a bit annoyed if they signed up, were selected and then found out they were in a puzzle quest.

[The Legonater]

I have a quick question about quests that seems kind of odd, if you will. So, does every quest have to have at least one battle or multiple? If no,t could a quest be more "passive" in the sense there is more diplomacy and communication rather than dealing with enemies in a battle?

Of course, though, if the speech goes wrong, then a battle may be initiated. I figured I'd ask since this seems like an out-of-the-box idea.

I'm all for the idea, and as mentioned above similar situations have occurred. One could easily circumvent battles by incorporating XP for puzzles or successful diplomacy.

[Sandy]

I have a quick question about quests that seems kind of odd, if you will. So, does every quest have to have at least one battle or multiple? If no,t could a quest be more "passive" in the sense there is more diplomacy and communication rather than dealing with enemies in a battle?

Of course, though, if the speech goes wrong, then a battle may be initiated. I figured I'd ask since this seems like an out-of-the-box idea.

It can of course be done, but I really don't recommend one as your first quest to host. A quest that's only based on diplomacy and making the right kind of arguments can get really boring and repetitive. And the heroes must have some sort of way to gain experience, or they will get angry at you.

But yeah, I hosted a quest with nothing but puzzles and it got mixed opinions. I'd imagine pure roleplaying quests are not for everyone, either.

[Zepher]

Hey Sandy!

So, Quest 124! It was absolutely a ton of fun, and I think it'd be redundant to talk about how much you've grown as a QM over the years (hell, we've all practiced enough that hopefully we've all grown). Here are some of the things I LOVED and some of the things I thought could use improving:

-Laureline Hinckwell - I'm not sure we learned a ton more about her from this quest, to be perfectly frank. You have a ton of characters, and of course they can't all be incredibly important, but at the same time none should feel unimportant. Even within this quest, what would have been different if Heinreich had asked us to track down a song his wife had once sang? Hopefully in the future we will see why it's important that Laureline is a player in this meandering story of Eubric. I know you are more than capable of creating fully realized bit characters (you have probably dozens of them at this point) but I still felt like she just didn't come into full, and this was advertised as her quest.

-The arbomancer seemed like a nice fellow, and I liked that the rich citizens of Eubric pay him to keep the flowers alive in winter . That's a superb little detail. The Dark Dwarves were fun and great figures. Obviously that battle was too tough - even with a Minstrel and a few levels higher it was still a challenge. We made some mistakes too, however, and it's pointless to dwell on. I really admire that you let us give it a second go, that's the sign of a generous QM playing with their players, not against them.

-I liked the puzzle of finding the right girl - the answer was so simple that you had to spell it out for us, but that didn't make it less fun! The pixie fight also skewed a little difficult to me, but we also suffered bad rolls.

-I couldn't tell if there was a better way to get to the front of the Carly Swift group. That fight was certainly fair enough, with some fun enemies and good specials. I guess we should have immediately made the connection with the Shadeaux - I really like that they weren't trying to hurt the Hinckwells this time around, though.

-I'm sorry that the Queen of the Dancefloor is dead. I feel like there are going to be a lot of disappointed folks. I guess that's the danger of living in Eubric.

-Bellanotte - On the other hand, I thought Bellanotte came across fantastically in this quest, for all the reasons I thought Laureline didn't work out great. She is a character who's role could not have been filled by any of her family members, which makes her an integral character. Nuitan probably would have never let slip that he received the song (and would have never given it to Carly in the first place). Umbra would probably be as angry as Noctus was about the cross-relationship, and besides, I don't think Nuitan would confide in her. Count Noctus likewise seems like he and his son have a closed relationship, and obviously he doesn't attend Carly Swift concerts. Bellanotte was the only character who fit here, and that defines her and makes her seem like a part of the story. I'd say this quest was really her story, much like her role in "Protect My Brother" simply couldn't be filled by anyone else. In the larger scheme of things too we can tell how she's important. She's loyal to the Shadeaux in the way that Umbra and Noctus are, but she's loyal to her brother too and therefore accepting of him. This is different than all the other Shadeaux, and this makes her an important player in the overall meandering story of Eubric. But maybe Bobby just liked her more.

-Like I said, the final fight was nice! Thanks for that. Very generous.

-The loot was alright... but it will take a few years for any of us to get to Minstrel, and beyond that, there wasn't a ton of great loot. I don't think every quest ever has to drop powerful things, but I don't know if anyone in the party picked up a new artifact OR weapon, and generally there should be at least one. Not one for each player, but at least one. Maybe there was one. The loot just felt a little light, but on the other hand we did lose a decent number of our battles, so perhaps we deserve that.

-The Epilogue - I actually didn't love it. It's a twist, sure... but it means that the choice in the end was absolutely meaningless, and since this was a Shadeaux and Hinckwell quest that makes the whole thing feel meaningless. I'm glad to see this story move forward, but I feel like we've hit this beat many times over the years of this game. The boys almost got tattled on nearly 100 quests ago. Bellanotte fixed that thanks to a player choice, but then it was taken away due to NPCs in 66. Then we retread it here again. So I'm glad it's moving forward, but feel like it was ALWAYS going to move in this direction and we just sort of delayed it for a long long time. BUT if that epilogue wasn't going to happen if we didn't tell Laureline, then that's all moot.

I know all that looks like harping. I had a honestly great time! The fun of the quest was honestly 9/10, and I suppose with a game that's a pretty fantastic score. But those are the points I think that would have pushed it to 10/10, especially as a "reader" as opposed to a "player". Thank you so so much for having me, and I can't wait until I get to quest under you again. :thumbup:

[Sandy]

Thanks for the compliments and the constructive criticism, it is always appreciated! This was meant to be a light, humorous quest for low-level players, but also introduce the two NPCs that haven't gotten almost any screen time thus far - Laureline and Bellanotte.

I had a problem balancing the battles for the party, as was obvious, but at least I hit the mark third time around. Neither the vampire battle nor the repeat battle with the dark dwarves were planned before the launch, but I felt you deserved them after having to flee from two consecutive battles because of the enemies being way out of your league.

-Laureline Hinckwell - I'm not sure we learned a ton more about her from this quest, to be perfectly frank. You have a ton of characters, and of course they can't all be incredibly important, but at the same time none should feel unimportant. Even within this quest, what would have been different if Heinreich had asked us to track down a song his wife had once sang? Hopefully in the future we will see why it's important that Laureline is a player in this meandering story of Eubric. I know you are more than capable of creating fully realized bit characters (you have probably dozens of them at this point) but I still felt like she just didn't come into full, and this was advertised as her quest.

Well, she did give you her background story at the beginning, and being the sole female in the Hinckwell family I felt she needed screen time as well. I tried to make her different from Hestia and the Ziegfried wifes in that she is actually an opportunist and a snob, having married Heinrich for his money and not out of love. Also, she's the reason Hinckwell reputation gives access to the Minstrel class. I also intend to bring Taliesin into the picture at some point, to give Laureline more importance in the overarching story, even though he was just used as a red herring in this case.

-Bellanotte - On the other hand, I thought Bellanotte came across fantastically in this quest, for all the reasons I thought Laureline didn't work out great. She is a character who's role could not have been filled by any of her family members, which makes her an integral character. Nuitan probably would have never let slip that he received the song (and would have never given it to Carly in the first place). Umbra would probably be as angry as Noctus was about the cross-relationship, and besides, I don't think Nuitan would confide in her. Count Noctus likewise seems like he and his son have a closed relationship, and obviously he doesn't attend Carly Swift concerts. Bellanotte was the only character who fit here, and that defines her and makes her seem like a part of the story. I'd say this quest was really her story, much like her role in "Protect My Brother" simply couldn't be filled by anyone else. In the larger scheme of things too we can tell how she's important. She's loyal to the Shadeaux in the way that Umbra and Noctus are, but she's loyal to her brother too and therefore accepting of him. This is different than all the other Shadeaux, and this makes her an important player in the overall meandering story of Eubric. But maybe Bobby just liked her more.

I like Bellanotte a lot as well, even though I haven't gotten to use her much! She's such a tragic character, and the ending was all about her naivety leading to more tragedy.

-The loot was alright... but it will take a few years for any of us to get to Minstrel, and beyond that, there wasn't a ton of great loot. I don't think every quest ever has to drop powerful things, but I don't know if anyone in the party picked up a new artifact OR weapon, and generally there should be at least one. Not one for each player, but at least one. Maybe there was one. The loot just felt a little light, but on the other hand we did lose a decent number of our battles, so perhaps we deserve that.

Uh, hello? What about the awesome scroll that the vampire carried? Or the vampire cape from the wannabe? Or the dual strike axe of the dark dwarf leader? Not to mention the fairy's loot you missed... I say it's plenty enough for a short'n'sweet quest like this.

Also, your second character is currently at Level 7. You can't expect Bobby to be wielding a WP:20 weapon just yet...

-The Epilogue - I actually didn't love it. It's a twist, sure... but it means that the choice in the end was absolutely meaningless, and since this was a Shadeaux and Hinckwell quest that makes the whole thing feel meaningless. I'm glad to see this story move forward, but I feel like we've hit this beat many times over the years of this game. The boys almost got tattled on nearly 100 quests ago. Bellanotte fixed that thanks to a player choice, but then it was taken away due to NPCs in 66. Then we retread it here again. So I'm glad it's moving forward, but feel like it was ALWAYS going to move in this direction and we just sort of delayed it for a long long time. BUT if that epilogue wasn't going to happen if we didn't tell Laureline, then that's all moot.

You said it yourself - the Hinckwell/Shadeaux storyline has been treading in one place for 100 quests now. It had to be kicked forward, and the party's actions DID matter - Laureline doesn't know about her son's love affair because the party did not tell her all the details. Count Shadeaux would've found it out either way, but there are literally two sides to this story, and this quest was more about the Hinckwell's side of the story, even though Bellanotte ended up being the key player.

But yeah, I'm not trying to make you like my story choices, I just want to make clear they are all part of a bigger picture. You have expressed your wish to "shake up" my storyline with some outside influence, but I don't think I could write these quests if I didn't have all the puzzle pieces in my possession. I'm all for player input, but I need to be the one to decide how much of an effect player input has. Otherwise I would lose sight of the main storyline and this game would have no real continuity.

[Zepher]

Yeah, I'm not disputing that Laureline can grow to a bigger character, but talk is cheap . I wish we had seen her take action a little bit more. 20 quests from now it might be nice to know that she was a minstrel once, but what people will remember is if she scolded her son and sent him away from the city, or told him to run away from Nuitan, or if she just shrugged her shoulders and said what the hell let him do what he wants and she wouldn't be mentioning it to the father. Right now she is just doing the same thing her husband would do - there's ways to have her still be against the friendship without having her retread what we've known about the Hinckwells since the first day of the game.

But yeah, fair points about the loot. I don't think the cape is great, but it could be in a build, and the axe is a new weapon. And like I said, it's probably more a reflection of us failing quite a few battles.

And I'm not saying the story shouldn't move forward! It just feels like it's a little silly to offer us a moral choice if the affair is going to come to light anyway. I assume Noctus will have to reveal it to the Hinckwells in some way by his reaction, but that is assuming, so who knows! Maybe he'll try to exploit it! I agree that you should absolutely remain in charge of your storyline! It's just sometimes feels a little unfair to offer us a choice and then immediately ignore it. I felt like we had affair comes to light/affair doesn't come to light, and then a page later we were told that regardless of what we told the Hinckwells the answer was "affair comes to light" so what the heck were we doing debating it? But again that's assuming on my part. And I'm not unhappy that the storyline is moving forward - but again, if the "affair comes to light" was the only outcome of that storyline, then the choice at the end of 43 was equally pointless, and we could have just skipped to it there.

And I do like your stories. And I'm not demanding that any player controls the story! I know you let the characters evolve the story. We've all seen it and appreciated it. I'm just saying offering non-choices often just slows things down, that's all!! Other than that yes you can absolutely hold all the puzzle pieces, because you're doing a good job of it!

[Palathadric]

Quest 124 was a really great read. I think the relatively light nature of the quest mixed with the party's horrific luck (and too powerful battles) made it more of a comedy than anything...or maybe that was just Bobby. I really liked reading this quest but maybe I just like "short and sweet" quests generally speaking. Thanks to all those who played in it.

[Sandy]

This quest did not even exist as a plan back when I did #43, all I knew then is that the affair would come to light in a shocking twist at some point - because what would be the point of having a scandalous love affair if everyone was okay with it?

I'm just saying offering non-choices often just slows things down, that's all!!

But it wasn't really a non-choice. You got to choose which family to side with, so it mattered on the player's level.

[Zepher]

Yeah, but that's exactly what I'm saying. That would have been the time to have it come to light if you already knew it was going to come to light. There was no choice for the heroes at the end of that quest if their actions didn't matter. After 43 I thought the questees HAD made a choice - the love affair would be secret, and the boys would go to Doomsayer's Island! Instead of the love affair would be public, which seemed like the other option. But now there was no option and no Doomsayer's Island, just treading water for 90 odd quests.

But maybe we can just chalk it up to different philosophies. I still enjoy your quests and stories, so probably in the end that's all that matters.

[Sandy]

Yeah, but that's exactly what I'm saying. That would have been the time to have it come to light if you already knew it was going to come to light. There was no choice for the heroes at the end of that quest if their actions didn't matter. After 43 I thought the questees HAD made a choice - the love affair would be secret, and the boys would go to Doomsayer's Island! Instead of the love affair would be public, which seemed like the other option. But now there was no option and no Doomsayer's Island, just treading water for 90 odd quests.

I'm just saving the best for last! Doomsayer's Island is actually the conclusion of my Hinckwell/Shadeaux storyline. Hosting it back then would've felt forced, especially since it was just the introductory phase of each storyline. I wanted to give these characters and factions time to grow and evolve before throwing them to the climax.

With these last two quests of mine, I have finally gotten all the pawns on the gameboard (to make yet another analogy), and now I can start moving them around for real.

[Zepher]

Quest 124 was a really great read. I think the relatively light nature of the quest mixed with the party's horrific luck (and too powerful battles) made it more of a comedy than anything...or maybe that was just Bobby. I really liked reading this quest but maybe I just like "short and sweet" quests generally speaking. Thanks to all those who played in it.

And thank you. I'm glad you like reading Bobby, I can't tell if he's a pain in the megablocks or not. I also realized that it must be very hard sometimes for people from other countries to pick up on English slang, even if they know the language well, so hopefully that's not super annoying for people from other countries.

And like I said, I had an absolute blast! I'm not debating that.