Heroica RPG - Quest Masters' Lounge

[CMP]

The Construct looked too much like a bunch of different classes in one, in my opinion, and not every roll has to be special (QMs would have to be dealing with twice as many actions, there's no need for them to be so complicated). And generally I think rolls 5. and 6. are supposed to be negative, otherwise there's very little chance of the Engineer getting KO'd. But these are just my suggestions to your suggestions.

[Brickdoctor]

The knight is good in that Sentinal provides protection for its shield roll but that is where it ends. I would like to see a class where its main goal is just to defend and buff the parties defensive stats, i.e. a battle style where it can protect the party with rolls of critical hit, or hit, or miss.

Ooh, that provides the perfect substitute for Cautious Hit. Thanks, I'll get to work on that.

[Flipz]

The Construct looked too much like a bunch of different classes in one, in my opinion, and not every roll has to be special (QMs would have to be dealing with twice as many actions, there's no need for them to be so complicated). And generally I think rolls 5. and 6. are supposed to be negative, otherwise there's very little chance of the Engineer getting KO'd. But these are just my suggestions to your suggestions.

There's no need for the Engineer to be KO'd; he can't attack, so if the construct goes down and he's out of Ether, he can't do anything in the battle. In that case, he's effectively KO'd, and the battle would end even though he's technically conscious. And now that I think of it, Malfunction should really damage the Construct instead of the Engineer, and the Engineer's Health stat should be removed entirely just for clarity.

All right, I understand that. In that case, make 4. a Miss and put Memory Bank as its Shield instead of Electromagnet; the Construct is intended to be a remnant of the Engineer's old class, whatever it was before. I still stand by the old weapons rules, the "basic" weapons limitation is just too restrictive.

[Brickdoctor]

Okay, take two:

Changes:

• Name change, from 'Spearman' to 'Skirmisher'. (thanks, Pie!)
  
• Skirmishers no longer are forced to agree with and obey their Party Leader.
  
• There is now no way for the Skirmisher to buff his own offensive power, but his buffing of other heroes' offensive power is no longer dependent on a die roll. The Cooperative Battle Style does affect other Skirmishers, so if there are two Skirmishers, they can buff each other's offensive power, but the focus of the trait is buffing other heroes.
  
• Phalanx is purely defensive; it's a half-power Sentinel now. I'm not sure if that's underpowered.
  
• Cautious Hit is now Defend, which allows the Skirmisher to 'share' his SP with everyone else. (thanks, WBD!)

[CMP]

Now that's a class I could go for. Defend and Cooperation really make it worth it. Phalanx is a little weak, though. Edited May 29, 2012 by CallMePie

[Palathadric]

I don't think it makes sense for a skirmisher to form a phalanx. Besides phalanx require a number of people, if I'm not wrong.

[CMP]

Skirmishers are infantry or cavalry soldiers stationed ahead or alongside a larger body of friendly troops. They are usually placed in a skirmish line to harass the enemy.

Phalanx just sounds better.

[Endgame]

Perhaps to make Phalanx stronger:

Damage / 2 - Number of standing heroes = Total damage?

So...

40 / 2 (20) - number of standing heroes (6) = Only 14 damage dealt?

[Brickdoctor]

Now that's a class I could go for. Defend and Cooperation really make it worth it. Phalanx is a little weak, though.

Yeah, like I said, I think it might be underpowered, but I can't think of a way to make any more powerful without making it seem like Sentinel.

I don't think it makes sense for a skirmisher to form a phalanx. Besides phalanx require a number of people, if I'm not wrong.

Hmm, yeah, the name is left over from when the class was named 'Spearman'. I'll have to rename that.

Also, historically, soldiers similar to this class would carry a dagger or a short sword, so I'm debating whether or not to allow Skirmishers to use swords and whether or not to somehow cripple them if they choose to do so.

Perhaps to make Phalanx stronger:

Damage / 2 - Number of standing heroes = Total damage?

So...

40 / 2 (20) - number of standing heroes (6) = Only 14 damage dealt?

That's too much like a defensive version of one of Infiltrator's abilities, though, I think.

[Palathadric]

I think skirimishers are javelin throwers for the most part. Phalanx are pikemen. It would be a pretty ineffective phalanx if they were to use their normal javelins. I guess, though, there probably won't be more than one skirmisher per team, so the pike would be pretty ineffective anyway.

[CMP]

Longswords, at least, should be added, I think. But lugging around a dagger and shield would look ridiculous.

Maybe something to the effect of a party-wide counter? Like

Phalanx/Skirmish Line: For the next round, all damage incoming to a hero is halved, and the attacking opponent is struck with an attack equal to the hero's level in return.

I think skirimishers are javelin throwers for the most part. Phalanx are pikemen. It would be a pretty ineffective phalanx if they were to use their normal javelins. I guess, though, there probably won't be more than one skirmisher per team, so the pike would be pretty ineffective anyway.

That's called Peltast, which was turned down, and a phalanx is a military formation of units that fit the Skirmisher's description.

Edited May 29, 2012 by CallMePie

[Flipz]

OK, so here's a revised version of Engineer, compiling mine and Pie's changes. Pie deserves MEGA credit for reworking the Engineer portion, and for all his advice on the Construct itself. And of course, credit to Xarrzan for the original idea of Engineer as an Expert Class.

Engineer

Additional Health:

No health

Additional Ether:

+X

Weapons:

Engineers use specialized tools for the task, like wrenches, hammers, and gears.

Job Trait:

Mechanical Expertise - Allows the Engineer to repair or alter various machinery encountered.

Battle Style:

Construction - Engineers build Constructs to aid their party, and cannot attack physically. However, they cannot be damaged by enemies.

1. SHIELD: Eureka! – The Engineer is inspired by an idea, granting a random positive effect to their Construct the lasts until the Engineer rolls another SHIELD.

2. MAJOR REPAIRS: The Engineer can spend 1 Ether to repair his or her Construct with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level (e.g., WP: 4 x 2 + Lvl 5 = 13 Health restored to Construct).

3. MODERATE REPAIRS: The Engineer can spend 1 Ether to heal his or her Construct with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level (e.g., WP: 4 + Lvl 5 = 9 Health restored to Construct).

4. CONTEMPLATE: The Engineer concentrates to regain 1 Ether.

5. ERROR: The Engineer's attempt at repair fails. No effect.

6. MALFUNCTION: The Engineer's attempt at repair fails catastrophically; the Construct takes damage equal to its weapon power added to its level and is Stunned (e.g., Construct's WP: 4 + Lvl 5 = 9 Damage and Stunned effect to Construct). The Engineer is also Stunned.

QM Note:

If the Construct is the last standing party member and is defeated, the Engineer is considered to be defeated as well.

CONSTRUCT

Base Health:

Creator's original health + X per Level.

Base Ether:

none

Weapons:

The Construct may be fitted at a blacksmith with any weapon the Engineer could use before they became an Engineer. Adding or removing a weapon from a Construct costs 25 Gold, plus 5 Gold for each additional weapon carried. Shields may be fitted (if the Engineer could previously use a shield), but Artifacts may not.

Switching between weapons requires one turn

.

Job Trait(s):

Automated - The Construct retain's one Job Trait from its creator's previous Base or Advanced class. The choice should be listed in the character’s stats and may only be changed in the Heroica Hall Training Room.

1. SHIELD: Memory Bank - The Construct uses the Shield effect for its user’s previous Base or Advanced class. The choice should be listed in the character’s stats and may only be changed in the Heroica Hall Training Room.

2. CRITICAL HIT: The Construct attacks the target with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to the Engineer’s level (e.g., WP:6 x 2 + Lvl 5 = 17 Damage).

3. HIT: The Construct attacks the target with strength equal to its weapon power added to the Engineer’s level (e.g., WP:6 + Lvl 5 = 11 Damage).

4. MISS - The Construct misses its target.

5. DAMAGE: The Construct is struck by its opponent.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE: The Construct is struck by the opponent’s special skill.

QM Note:

The Construct is Mechanical type, and follows corresponding elemental strengths and weaknesses (takes double damage from Lightning-elemental attacks, takes no damage from Wind-elemental attacks). The Construct is unaffected by healing, consumables, or Phoenix Essences. If disabled (Knocked Out), the Engineer may expend 10 Ether to repair it; this follows all other rules for revival (as if with a Phoenix Essence).

Changes:

*Engineer buffs reworked into the Engineer's Shield (thanks, Pie!)

*Damage changed to Miss for Engineer.

*Health stat removed from Engineer to avoid confusion (Engineers are considered defeated if their Construct is defeated and cannot be repaired)

*Construct now takes the damage from Malfunction, and is also Stunned. The Engineer is also Stunned by this effect. (Thanks again to Pie for the idea.)

*Weapon suitability rules for both portions reinstated, with the Construct's requirements reworded for concision and clarity.

*Construct Job Trait reinstated.

*Memory Bank switched to the Shield roll; traditional Miss, Damage, and Special Damage rolls instituted.

*Hit and Critical Hit wording simplified. Ranged weapons still work as normal, even though this is not stated explicitly.

Say, Doc, where'd you get a blank Class form? This would look really nice on one of those.

EDIT:

Maybe something to the effect of a party-wide counter? Like

Phalanx/Skirmish Line: For the next round, all damage incoming to a hero is halved, and the attacking opponent is struck with an attack equal to the hero's level in return.

Agreed, that would be perfect for the Skirmisher class. Possibly make damage dealt based on the Skirmisher's level, though.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Flipz

[Capt.JohnPaul]

Also, historically, soldiers similar to this class would carry a dagger or a short sword, so I'm debating whether or not to allow Skirmishers to use swords and whether or not to somehow cripple them if they choose to do so.

The shield is underpowered, it's a level 30 class, put back in the encouraged effect. I'm unsure about having swords. Maybe you should, if you have to have a great reputation with the Lion Knights, you probably would have to go on Quests like 17. So I got that wonderful WP: 6 sword, but I can't use it, even though it was from a Lion Quest.

I think skirimishers are javelin throwers for the most part. Phalanx are pikemen. It would be a pretty ineffective phalanx if they were to use their normal javelins. I guess, though, there probably won't be more than one skirmisher per team, so the pike would be pretty ineffective anyway.

I thought so too.

That's called Peltast, which was turned down, and a phalanx is a military formation of units that fit the Skirmisher's description.

But a "skirmish" is a small engagement, usually from lightly armed fighters. A phalanx doesn't sound lightly armed.

[Palathadric]

From Wikki:

In ancient and medieval warfare, skirmishers typically carried bows, javelins, slings, and sometimes carried light shields. Acting as light infantry with their light arms and minimal armour, they could run ahead of the main battle line, release a volley of arrows, slingshots or javelins, and retreat behind their main battle line before the clash of the opposing main forces. The aims of skirmishing were to disrupt enemy formations by causing casualties before the main battle, and to tempt the opposing infantry into attacking prematurely, throwing their organization into disarray. Skirmishers could also be effectively used to surround opposing soldiers in the absence of friendly cavalry.

Once preliminary skirmishing was over, skirmishers participated in the main battle by shooting into the enemy formation, or joined in melée combat with daggers or short swords. Alternatively, they could act as ammunition bearers or stretcher-bearers.[citation needed]

[Capt.JohnPaul]

...[citation needed]

That's not always the best source.. since there is no source... but that is the description I've always heard.

[Brickdoctor]

The shield is underpowered, it's a level 30 class, put back in the encouraged effect. I'm unsure about having swords. Maybe you should, if you have to have a great reputation with the Lion Knights, you probably would have to go on Quests like 17. So I got that wonderful WP: 6 sword, but I can't use it, even though it was from a Lion Quest.

The Encouraged effect is automatic now, it doesn't even require the Shield. I think I will try to buff it somehow, though.

[Palathadric]

For the most part, I don't see spearmen and skirmishers as at all the same thing and are for the most part two roles that would probably not mix. Skimishers are all about speed and about attacking. They probably roam about in loose formations to hit down the enemy before the battle begins. Spearmen are all about defense. Theirs is a teamworking effort. They move forwards in tightly packed groups to prevent the enemy from getting in at them. I would say for whatever option you go for that long swords is probably not a good option. Both groups should use short swords as a supplementary weapon.

[Brickdoctor]

I would say for whatever option you go for that long swords is probably not a good option. Both groups should use short swords as a supplementary weapon.

Yes, but Heroica doesn't distinguish between long and short swords, and I don't think it should. It's meant to be a simple RPG.

[Palathadric]

That's not always the best source.. since there is no source... but that is the description I've always heard.

I don't know, I think this is the first time I've ever looked something up on wiki, I guess I didn't know where else to look to prove my point and CMP had already used it.

Darn I shouldn't have copied that "citation needed" part.

[Capt.JohnPaul]

The Encouraged effect is automatic now, it doesn't even require the Shield. I think I will try to buff it somehow, though.

It's in bold red font, how did I miss that?

For the most part, I don't see spearmen and skirmishers as at all the same thing and are for the most part two roles that would probably not mix. Skimishers are all about speed and about attacking. They probably roam about in loose formations to hit down the enemy before the battle begins. Spearmen are all about defense. Theirs is a teamworking effort. They move forwards in tightly packed groups to prevent the enemy from getting in at them. I would say for whatever option you go for that long swords is probably not a good option. Both groups should use short swords as a supplementary weapon.

Exactly, a name change is necessary. One is light and runs around quickly, the other moves slowly with others tightly packed, and armored with shields and armor. Doc switched the two.

[Palathadric]

Yes, but Heroica doesn't distinguish between long and short swords, and I don't think it should. It's meant to be a simple RPG.

Really? I thought some classes could only use long swords? Anyway, daggers are

[JimBee]

Yes, but Heroica doesn't distinguish between long and short swords, and I don't think it should. It's meant to be a simple RPG.

Even though it does for Broadswords and Longswords... But yeah short swords could go in with long swords.

I really like the revised Skirmisher, Brickdoctor. It seems really balanced, and simple enough. I hope that a lot of Expert classes follow that model, because I think the game would be very hard to balance with ultra-powerful classes.

[Brickdoctor]

Exactly, a name change is necessary. One is light and runs around quickly, the other moves slowly with others tightly packed, and armored with shields and armor. Doc switched the two.

Yeah, all that's really needed here is a name change for the special. Anybody have any suggestions?

Really? I thought some classes could only use long swords? Anyway, daggers are

My only concern is that daggers are, for lack of a better word, 'roguish' weapons. Even though they're also used by Mages in Heroica, they seem like weapons to be used by Rogues. Swords seem more traditional and more honorable, and more appropriate for this class.

[Capt.JohnPaul]

Yeah, all that's really needed here is a name change for the special. Anybody have any suggestions?

Why not go back to Spearman? Or pikeman? What about Hoplite? (That's not exactly right, but it could work.) We can try Huscarls, for the shield wall/phalanx special. I can't think of any more right now.

[Brickdoctor]

Why not go back to Spearman? Or pikeman? What about Hoplite?

'Skirmisher' sounds better than 'Spearman' as a class name. 'Pikeman' and 'Hoplite' are too specific.