Heroica RPG - Quest Masters' Lounge

[CMP]

Eh. . .perhaps. I have seen other classes with (more) complicated Shields/effects, so I didn't think that three variations would be a problem.

I based this mostly off Assassin, as I wanted this to be a step up from that:

Gold Reaper is almost exactly like my Gold-earning rolls, but with Assassin you will always recieve Gold with a Shield - with Bounty Hunter, you only have 2/3 chance.

I (and most other Assassins) really don't want to lose the instant-kill when moving on from Assassin, so I left it in.

I tried to weaken the class a bit by limiting it to only Darkness-spells.

FYI, I got the idea for damage/deflection from your "Wren Hunter" class.

None of them have 3 entirely different shields, and I don't understand a couple of the variations on yours. And I think that you have to tie your classes into a faction in one of your quests, I don't think you'd be able to choose it as an expert class.

Perhaps, but it was only on Special Damage. You've added it to both.

[Waterbrick Down]

Tentitive Class description:

Bounty Hunter

Additional Health: +12

Additional Ether: +3 (+1 for each Level in non-Ether users)

Weapons: Anything suitable for a Rogue, Ranger, or Mage, plus any Weapons taken from enemy leaders (and only leaders), elemental (even elements other than Darkness) weapons.

Job Traits:

Flee (see Rogue)

Grift/Threaten (see Black Knight)

Spell Casting (See Mage)

Battle Style: Badass - Just keep reading and you will see.

Extra Information: Bounty Hunters can cast spells, but only of Darkness. They are immune to Darkness attacks, but are weak to ones of Light. Bounty Hunters can use Scrolls.

1. SHIELD: One of 3 Shield effects is chosen at random, via a dice roll.

2. CRITICAL HIT/SPELL: The Bounty Hunter Attacks its target with the strength of its WP x2 (x4 for spells), and has a 1/6 chance of an instant kill - unless the target is immune to instant kill - / cost 1 Ether for spells.

3. HIT/SPELL: The Bounty Hunter attacks the target with the strength of its WP + its Level (Level x2 for spells), and has a 1/6 chance of an instant kill - unless the target is immune to instant kill - / cost 1 Ether for spells.

4. SUPERFICIAL HIT/SPELL: The Bounty Hunter attacks the target with strength equal to its WP (x2 for spells), and has a 1/6 chance of an instant kill - unless the target is immune to instant kill - / cost 1 Ether for spells.

5. DAMAGE/DEFLECTION: The Bounty Hunter has a 50/50 chance of A. Deflecting its target's Damage to another (randomly-chosen) enemy (if only one enemy remains, the Damage is reflected back to it), or B. Being struck by its opponent's damage.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE/SPECIAL DEFLECTION: The Bounty Hunter has a 50/50 chance of either A. Deflecting the target's Special to another (randomly-chosen) enemy (if only one enemy remains, the effect is deflected back to it), or B. Being struck by its opponent's special skill.

SHIELD ACTIONS:

1-2. Bait and Switch - The Bounty Hunter switches a (randomly-generated 2-6) Shield effect with a (randomly-chosen) Party member who has also rolled a Shield.

3-4. Lethal Mug - The Bounty Hunter instantly kills its target, and steals an amount of Gold equal to the target's Level. In the case of a target's being immune to instant kill, the Bounty Hunter only steals the Gold.

5-6. Dark Blast - The Bounty Hunter unleashes a blast of Darkness-Elemental energy equal to its WP x2 on all enemies, and steals Gold from each target equal to each target's respective Level / costs no Ether.

C&C please.

I kind of get the idea that the expert classes are not necessarily meant to be upgraded advanced or basic classes, but more like a whole new base class altogether. I don't think there is anything wrong with an Assassin wanting to stay an Assassin, and I feel having two classes with the instant kill ability detracts from the uniqueness of the original advanced class. Right now the Bounty Hunter feels like a combination of Black Knight, Mage, and Assassin without offering anything really new or different. Also if the class is restricted to only dark-elemental, I feel that this is pretty similar to Zepher's Chaos defender. If the darkness elemental restriction is kept, maybe consider changing the name from Bounty Hunter to something more arcane?

[LEGOman273]

Agreed. I like the concept of a class being "elementally locked," though. Try using the third Shield effect listed, with a 1/3 chance of assasination, and remove instant kill from all other rolls. Instead of Flee, they should get Track Down, and the note about only being able to use Darkness spells should become a new Job Trait (i.e. "Dark Spirit--Bounty Hunters may cas spells, but only of the darkness element; in addition, they may not wield any weapon that is not Darkness-imbued (dual-imbued weapons are allowed, so long as one of the elements is Darkness). Bounty Hunters are immune to Darkness damage but take double damage from Light.") Superficial Hit needs to go, as does Special Deflect. Damage Deflection should change so that it has a 50/50 chance of Deflecting the damage to another (randomly-chosen) participant in the battle, whether it be friend or foe.

Spot 4 should be something along the lines of "DECOY - The Bounty Hunter hides behind an ally next to them in the party Battle Order. Next Round, any damage or effect dealt to the Bounty Hunter affects the ally instead."

Flipz, you are bloody brilliant!

Class description - with Flipz-edits:

Tentitive Class description:

Bounty Hunter

Additional Health: +12

Additional Ether: +3 (+1 for each Level in non-Ether users)

Weapons: Anything suitable for a Rogue, Ranger, or Mage - as long as it has been imbued with the Darkness element.

Job Traits:

Dark Spirit: Bounty Hunters may cast spells, but only of the Darkness element; in addition, they may not wield any weapon that is not Darkness-imbued (dual-imbued weapons are allowed, so long as one of the elements is Darkness). Bounty Hunters are immune to Darkness damage but take double damage from Light.

Grift/Threaten (see Black Knight)

Spell Casting (See Mage)

Track Down (see Ranger)

Battle Style: Badass - Just keep reading and you will see.

1. SHIELD: One of 3 Shield effects is chosen at random, via a dice roll.

2. CRITICAL HIT/SPELL: The Bounty Hunter Attacks its target with the strength of its WP x2 (x4 for spells) / cost 1 Ether for spells.

3. HIT/SPELL: The Bounty Hunter attacks the target with the strength of its WP + its Level (Level x2 for spells) / cost 1 Ether for spells.

4. DECOY - The Bounty Hunter hides behind an ally next to them in the party Battle Order. Next Round, any damage or effect (positive or negative) that is dealt to the Bounty Hunter affects the ally instead.

5. DAMAGE/DEFLECTION: The Bounty Hunter has a 50/50 chance of A. Deflecting its target's Damage to another (randomly-chosen) participant in the Battle (can be friend or foe), or B. Being struck by its opponent's damage.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE: The Bounty Hunter is struck by its opponent's special skill.

SHIELD ACTIONS:

1-2. Bait and Switch - The Bounty Hunter switches a (randomly-generated 3-6) Shield effect with a (randomly-chosen) Party member who has also rolled a Shield.

3-4. Lethal Mug - The Bounty Hunter instantly kills its target, and steals an amount of Gold equal to the target's Level. In the case of a target's being immune to instant kill, the Bounty Hunter only steals the Gold.

5-6. Dark Blast - The Bounty Hunter unleashes a blast of Darkness-Elemental energy equal to its WP x2 on all enemies, and steals Gold from each target equal to each target's respective Level / costs no Ether.

For Decoy, I added that the effect given to the ally can be positive or negative. (Otherwise, between this and the chance of recieving deflected Damage, noone will want to Quest with a Bounty Hunter. )

One thing to keep in mind--mostly, we're designing classes that other people will play, not us; after all, if a class of ours is approved, WE have to give them out to Heroes who complete relevant Quests of ours; since we can't go on our own Quests for obvious reasons, we can't earn the classes we design.

I know. I think that others feel the same way as I do, though.

I will allow (a few) to others give out my class.

If the darkness elemental restriction is kept, maybe consider changing the name from Bounty Hunter to something more arcane?

1. The name is preliminary.

2. Such as what?

[Zepher]

Chaos Defenders

* Additional Health: +6

* Job Trait(s): Diplomacy – Chaos Defenders are used to working with others, Track Down – Chaos Defenders can track down any opponent, Order/Chaos – See Below

* Battle Style: Chaos Defenders are deeply troubled by the force they are sworn to fight, and so switch between Chaos and Order.

ORDERED: Job Trait – Order: Deals Light Elemental Damage.

1.

SHIELD

: Internal Conflict – The Chaos Defender goes through inner conflict, changing their battle style. They become Chaotic. While making the change, the Chaos Defender halves their opponent’s current health.

2.

RALLY

: The Chaos Defender attacks with strength equal to (WPx2+Lvl). The Chaos Defender rallies his allies after the attack, giving those above and below them in the battle order the Lucky and Encouraged Effect for the following round.

3.

HIT

: The Chaos Defender attacks the target with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level.

4.

REST

: The Chaos Defender restores health to themselves equal to their level.

5.

OPTIMISM

: The Chaos Defender is struck by the opponent’s attack. The Chaos Defender, however, thinks positively, and restores health to the entire party equal to ¼ the damage taken.

6.

SPECIAL DAMAGE

: The Chaos Defender is struck by its opponent’s special skill.

CHAOTIC: Job Trait – Chaos: Deals Darkness Elemental Damage.

1.

SHIELD

: Internal Conflict – The Chaos Defender goes through inner conflict, changing their battle style. They become Ordered. While making the change, the Chaos Defender brings the opponent to half of their current health.

2.

CHAOTIC STRIKE

: The Chaos Defender feints and slips past the target to hit a random enemy with strength equal to (WPx3+Level). The originally targeted opponent is distracted by the diversion and does not gain a Free Hit.

3.

HIT

: The Chaos Defender attacks the target with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level.

4.

COUNTER-THIEF

: The Chaos Defender is hit with the enemy's attack, but then steals gold equal to the enemy's level times two.

5.

DAMAGE

: The Chaos Defender is struck by the opponent’s attack.

6.

ZOOT’S BLESSING

: The Chaos Defender is struck by its opponent’s special skill. However, Zoot gives the opponent thee Fragile Effect.

Refined Pitch!

What's the critique, Sandy? Sorry, I'm afraid of things getting lost in this thread.

[Kadabra]

Agreed. I like the concept of a class being "elementally locked," though. Try using the third Shield effect listed, with a 1/3 chance of assasination, and remove instant kill from all other rolls. Instead of Flee, they should get Track Down, and the note about only being able to use Darkness spells should become a new Job Trait (i.e. "Dark Spirit--Bounty Hunters may cas spells, but only of the darkness element; in addition, they may not wield any weapon that is not Darkness-imbued (dual-imbued weapons are allowed, so long as one of the elements is Darkness). Bounty Hunters are immune to Darkness damage but take double damage from Light.") Superficial Hit needs to go, as does Special Deflect. Damage Deflection should change so that it has a 50/50 chance of Deflecting the damage to another (randomly-chosen) participant in the battle, whether it be friend or foe.

Spot 4 should be something along the lines of "DECOY - The Bounty Hunter hides behind an ally next to them in the party Battle Order. Next Round, any damage or effect dealt to the Bounty Hunter affects the ally instead."

Speaking of "elementally locked", here's a class I've been working on for Mages like Nur and myself:

Diviner

Diviners are masters of the arcane arts and can predict the future using the raw elements of the world.

Additional Health: +3

Additional Ether: +9

Weaponry: Diviners use arcane weapons - wands and staves.

Job Traits:

Healing: See Cleric

Spellcasting: See Mage.

Divination: Diviners may select 1 element to specialize in. This is the only element they may cast spells with or imbue in their weapons (a weapon may be multi-imbued if the chosen element is one of them), but they cause triple damage when using it. They can spend 3 Ether to receive a vision of the future, guiding them on their mission.

Battle Style: Elemental - Diviners use their mastery over their Element to wreak arcane havoc among foes.

1. SHIELD: Future Sight- The Diviner sees the future, and plans accordingly. You may replay the next round of battle or cause elemental damage equal to 5 x Weapon Power + level to the original target next round. This costs no ether. (e.g. WP 15 x 5 + Level 30 = 105 elemental damage to target next round, or replay next round.)

2. Critical Hit/Titanic Spell/Heal More: The Diviner attacks with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level multiplied by 2, or spends 1 ether to restore health to themselves or one of their allies equal to the power of their critical attack. Alternatively, they may spend 1 ether to cast an elemental spell with strength equal to 3x WP plus level. (e.g. WP 15 x 2 + Level 30 = 60 damage or restore 60 health, or WP 15 x 3 + Level 30 = 75 elemental damage.)

3. Hit/Greater Spell/Heal: The Diviner attacks with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level, or spends one ether to restore health to themselves or one of their allies equal to the power of their attack. Alternatively, they may spend 1 ether to cast an elemental spell with strength equal to WP x 2 plus level. (e.g. WP 15 + Level 30 = 45 damage or restore 45 health, or WP 15 x 2 + Level 30 = 60 elemental damage.)

4. Meditate/Spell/Cure: The Diviner meditates to regain 1 ether. Instead of meditating, the Diviner can spend 1 ether to restore health to themselves or one of their allies equal to their level. Alternatively, they may spend 1 ether to cast an elemental spell equal to WP + Level.

5. Magical Retribution: The Diviner is struck by the opponent’s attack, and in return makes him weak to his favored element. Optionally, any attempt of healing fails. (e.g. an Aeromancer Diviner takes Damage, but the foe becomes weak to Wind for the rest of the battle)

6. Special Damage: The Diviner is struck by the opponent's special skill.

C&C please?

[LEGOman273]

None of them have 3 entirely different shields, and I don't understand a couple of the variations on yours. And I think that you have to tie your classes into a faction in one of your quests, I don't think you'd be able to choose it as an expert class.

Perhaps, but it was only on Special Damage. You've added it to both.

1. What don't you understand?

2.1. Not necessarily, Sandy said that they do not need to be.

2.2. Not unless I allow others to give out my class.

Sorry, I'm afraid of things getting lost in this thread.

Agreed!

[UsernameMDM]

Maybe we need a thread for class proposals only. I have posted 2 so far with only 1 comment (thanks scubac). I don't expect Sandy to be all over each of our classes as they are posted. I think it would be a good idea to piat only well thought out and balanced classes and nit just a bunch of uber awesomes we want to play.

[Flipz]

Speaking of "elementally locked", here's a class I've been working on for Mages like Nur and myself:

Diviner

Diviners are masters of the arcane arts and can predict the future using the raw elements of the world.

Additional Health: +3

Additional Ether: +9

Weaponry: Diviners use arcane weapons - wands and staves.

Job Traits:

Healing: See Cleric

Spellcasting: See Mage.

Divination: Diviners may select 1 element to specialize in. This is the only element they may cast spells with or imbue in their weapons (a weapon may be multi-imbued if the chosen element is one of them), but they cause triple damage when using it. They can spend 3 Ether to receive a vision of the future, guiding them on their mission.

Battle Style: Elemental - Diviners use their mastery over their Element to wreak arcane havoc among foes.

1. SHIELD: Future Sight- The Diviner sees the future, and plans accordingly. You may replay the next round of battle or cause elemental damage equal to 5 x Weapon Power + level to the original target next round. This costs no ether. (e.g. WP 15 x 5 + Level 30 = 105 elemental damage to target next round, or replay next round.)

2. Critical Hit/Titanic Spell/Heal More: The Diviner attacks with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level multiplied by 2, or spends 1 ether to restore health to themselves or one of their allies equal to the power of their critical attack. Alternatively, they may spend 1 ether to cast an elemental spell with strength equal to 3x WP plus level. (e.g. WP 15 x 2 + Level 30 = 60 damage or restore 60 health, or WP 15 x 3 + Level 30 = 75 elemental damage.)

3. Hit/Greater Spell/Heal: The Diviner attacks with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level, or spends one ether to restore health to themselves or one of their allies equal to the power of their attack. Alternatively, they may spend 1 ether to cast an elemental spell with strength equal to WP x 2 plus level. (e.g. WP 15 + Level 30 = 45 damage or restore 45 health, or WP 15 x 2 + Level 30 = 60 elemental damage.)

4. Meditate/Spell/Cure: The Diviner meditates to regain 1 ether. Instead of meditating, the Diviner can spend 1 ether to restore health to themselves or one of their allies equal to their level. Alternatively, they may spend 1 ether to cast an elemental spell equal to WP + Level.

5. Magical Retribution: The Diviner is struck by the opponent’s attack, and in return makes him weak to his favored element. Optionally, any attempt of healing fails. (e.g. an Aeromancer Diviner takes Damage, but the foe becomes weak to Wind for the rest of the battle)

6. Special Damage: The Diviner is struck by the opponent's special skill.

C&C please?

I do like the concept, though I also think that the Diviner should be completely immune to spells of the favored element.

Also, slight rewording of Magical Retribution:

5. Magical Retribution: The Diviner is struck by the opponent’s attack, but in return makes the opponent weak to his favored element for the rest of the battle. Optionally, any attempt of healing fails.

You might think about making the class unable to attack physically, like Sages, but other than that I think it's good.

[JimBee]

Here's my issue with the class. It seems pretty well thought out and balanced... only, with the ability to both hasten and encourage, and the inability to use weapons and artifacts, plus a row is necessary... are battles going to change for that player? They get to pick to either attack, or take a potion... that's just about it. Besides, loot would be (mostly) useless to them, and without weapons to upgrade, gold would be nearly just as useless. It's not a bad class balance or creativity wise, but to dump all your weapons and artifacts at that point and lose control over your battle strategy... I don't know how much fun one would have.

Thanks for the feedback. Looking at the newly revealed Chi Monk, the Werewolf is similar to it in that they both cannot use weapons. I did want the Werewolf to be an all-out offensive class, like the Barbarian, so I think they can be compared in that way. If you think about it, a lot of classes - Rangers, Knights and Barbarians - are like what you mentioned, where they can basically only choose to attack or use an item. But you're right, I think gold and loot would pretty much be useless to a Werewolf the way the class is now. Like I said, I will probably lift the artifact limitation.

I'm not going to scrap this idea entirely though, I think it has potential with some tweaks.

A few questions/things I noticed for the expert classes. These are just my initial thoughts that I wanted to take down, it's a lot to take in so I'm not sure how I feel about the Expert classes in general yet. But thanks for sharing them Sandy.

- Minstrel: You say that it uses instruments for weapons - will new weapons types be added? Will Minstrels receive instruments upon advancing classes?

- Minstrel: They can use scrolls but not gems, correct?

- Dragoon: I like how the pet dragon has chance to disobey if the character advances at a later time. It puts pressure on the player to make a decision, and it adds a balancing factor.

- Dragoon: Elemental Breath: I'm guessing the element used when a 4 is rolled will be random, out of the gems that the user has?

- Dragoon - Level 90?! Seems almost impossible to reach. On that note I think that the experience you gain from one battle should plateau after a certain point. For example, after level 50, say, you would still gain 1/4 of a level. Otherwise I think things would move too slow.

- Necromancer: Spiritism: This and a few other job traits are neat, because they don't necisarily affect the game mechanics but they affect role-playing and allow for different things in the quest. Traits like these in the basic classes only allowed for a certain amount of things to do in a quest (to that nature), so it's nice to see that expanding.

- Necromancer - Raising the Undead: Powerful. IMO, this should nerfed to just allow the Necromancer to command the fallen enemies for just the battle that they were in. With these Expert Classes so strong, I can imagine that there will be a lot of enemies to balance that. And if the Necromacer can carry around enemies from battle to battle, I wouldn't be surprised that the armies would top 30 by the end of the quest (which would make things really hard to balance).

- Cannoneer: I love the Bombarding style, and I really like this class. They do have to buy their own bombs though, right? I mean, there's no ability that grants them more, is there? And also just a small note, the 5 roll for this one says "defended damage" but they can't carry shields.

- Alchemist: I like this class a lot, too, but I think it should be nerfed just a little bit. To me, Special Guard just doesn't fit and I think it should be a rarer gift. Otherwise it's really hard for the enemies to damage the party at all.

- Chi Monk: Seems really powerful at first but I like how a roll of 4 causes damage as well.

- Beast Warrior - Again with Counter instead of Miss. I also like that transforming ability. I considered it for the Werewolf but couldn't make it work.

Other thoughts:

Some of these seem really overpowered now, but I know that Expert Classes are long ways away and enemies will be made much stronger so that they seem pretty standard by that time. I think it might be hard to balance, but I also think I am underestimating how powerful we can make enemies to balance things out.

Hope you can read all that, I know it's a lot.

[Kadabra]

I do like the concept, though I also think that the Diviner should be completely immune to spells of the favored element.

Also, slight rewording of Magical Retribution:

5. Magical Retribution: The Diviner is struck by the opponent’s attack, but in return makes the opponent weak to his favored element for the rest of the battle. Optionally, any attempt of healing fails.

You might think about making the class unable to attack physically, like Sages, but other than that I think it's good.

Diviner

Diviners are masters of the arcane arts and can predict the future using the raw elements of the world.

Additional Health: +3

Additional Ether: +9

Weaponry: Diviners use arcane weapons - wands and staves.

Job Traits:

Healing: See Cleric

Spellcasting: See Mage.

Divination: Diviners may select 1 element to specialize in. This is the only element they may cast spells with or imbue in their weapons (a weapon may be multi-imbued if the chosen element is one of them), but they cause triple damage when using it and are immune to damage of that type. They can spend 3 Ether to receive a vision of the future, guiding them on their mission.

Battle Style: Elemental - Diviners use their mastery over their Element to wreak arcane havoc among foes.

1. SHIELD: Future Sight- The Diviner sees the future, and plans accordingly. You may replay the next round of battle or cause elemental damage equal to 5 x Weapon Power + level to the original target next round. This costs no ether. (e.g. WP 15 x 5 + Level 30 = 105 elemental damage to target next round, or replay next round.)

2. Titanic Spell/Invigorate: The Diviner spends 1 ether to cast an elemental spell with strength equal to 3x WP plus level, or heals themselves or an ally with such gusto that they restore health equal to the titanic attack and are Hastened. (e.g. WP 15 x 3 + Level 30 = 75 elemental damage, or 75 health restored + hastened effect.)

3. Greater Spell/Heal: The Diviner casts an elemental spell with strength equal to their weapon power x 2 added to their level, or spends one ether to restore health to themselves or one of their allies equal to the power of their critical attack. (e.g. WP 15 x 2 + Level 30 = 60 elemental damage or restore 45 health.)

4. Spell/Cure: The Diviner spends 1 ether to cast an elemental spell with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level. Instead of meditating, the Diviner can spend 1 ether to restore health and ether to themselves or one of their allies equal to their level.

5. Magical Retribution: The Diviner is struck by the opponent’s attack, but in return makes the opponent weak to his favored element for the rest of the battle. Optionally, any attempt of healing fails.

6. Special Damage: The Diviner is struck by the opponent's special skill.

Modified some stuff and implemented Flipz's recommendations.

[Zepher]

- Necromancer - Raising the Undead: Powerful. IMO, this should nerfed to just allow the Necromancer to command the fallen enemies for just the battle that they were in. With these Expert Classes so strong, I can imagine that there will be a lot of enemies to balance that. And if the Necromacer can carry around enemies from battle to battle, I wouldn't be surprised that the armies would top 30 by the end of the quest (which would make things really hard to balance).

This was my immediate thought as well.

[LEGOman273]

Eligibility for "Bounty Hunter":

Anyone who is over Level 30, and who has completed at least three assassination-and-or-infiltration Quests. (E.G. Quest #24 or Quest #2, respectively.)

[Myrddyn]

Thug

Additional health + 15

Weapons: Thugs use clubs, maces, axes, hammers, spears and daggers.

Job traits: Flee - (see Rogue), Natural respite - (see Barbarian), Intimidation - (see Berserker or Black Knight).

Battle style: Dirty - Thugs win their fights any way they can.

1. SHIELD: Taking you with me - The thug is Damaged by his opponent. However, he also deals damage equal to his weapon power multiplied by 8, plus his level. (WP 15 x 8 + Level 30 = 150 damage)

2. CRITICAL HIT: The thug strikes for damage equal to their weapon power multiplied by 2 added to their level, and stuns the target for the next round. (WP 15 x 2 + Level 30 = 60 damage + stunned effect to target)

3. HIT: The thug strikes for damage equal to their weapon power added to their level. (WP 15 + Level 30 = 45 damage)

4. CHEAP SHOT: The thug throws dirt in his targets face, stunning them for the remainder of the round.

5. DAMAGE: The Thug is struck with his opponents attack.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE: The Thug is struck with the opponents special skill.

Psychic

Additional health + 10

Additional ether + 5

Weapons: When nessesary, Psychics use wands, staves and daggers.

Job traits: Empath - Psychics have no need for Diplomacy; Animal Talk - (see Ranger), Track Down - (see Assasin or Hunter).

Battle style: Mind Control - Psychics prefer to play mind games rather than attack physically.

1. SHIELD: Mental Blast - All enemies target the Psychic but become confused for the next round. Costs no Ether.

2. HIT/HEX: Hexes the target for the next round. Costs 5 Ether. Alternatively, the Psychic strikes for damage equal to their weapon power added to their level. (WP 15 + Level 30 = 45 damage)

3. HIT/STUN: Stuns the target for the next round. Costs 5 Ether. Alternatively, the Psychic strikes for damage equal to their weapon power added to their level. (WP 15 + Level 30 = 45 damage)

4. MEDITATE: The Psychic concentrates to restore one ether.

5. DAMAGE: The Psychic is struck with the opponents attack.

6. PRECOGNITION: The Psychic has 50/50 chance to avoid any negative effects caused by the opponent's special skill.

Also, Question about DRAGOON: Pet dragon; If you become a Dragoon at level 30, but then change to something else at, say, level 35, then change back to Dragoon at level 90, what happens with the chance for the dragon to disobey orders?

[Flipz]

Old Engineer info (for reference):

OK, so here's a revised version of Engineer, compiling mine and Pie's changes. Pie deserves MEGA credit for reworking the Engineer portion, and for all his advice on the Construct itself. And of course, credit to Xarrzan for the original idea of Engineer as an Expert Class.

Engineer

Additional Health:

No health

Additional Ether:

+X

Weapons:

Engineers use specialized tools for the task, like wrenches, hammers, and gears.

Job Trait:

Mechanical Expertise - Allows the Engineer to repair or alter various machinery encountered.

Battle Style:

Construction - Engineers build Constructs to aid their party, and cannot attack physically. However, they cannot be damaged by enemies.

1. SHIELD: Eureka! – The Engineer is inspired by an idea, granting a random positive effect to their Construct the lasts until the Engineer rolls another SHIELD.

2. MAJOR REPAIRS: The Engineer can spend 1 Ether to repair his or her Construct with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level (e.g., WP: 4 x 2 + Lvl 5 = 13 Health restored to Construct).

3. MODERATE REPAIRS: The Engineer can spend 1 Ether to heal his or her Construct with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level (e.g., WP: 4 + Lvl 5 = 9 Health restored to Construct).

4. CONTEMPLATE: The Engineer concentrates to regain 1 Ether.

5. ERROR: The Engineer's attempt at repair fails. No effect.

6. MALFUNCTION: The Engineer's attempt at repair fails catastrophically; the Construct takes damage equal to its weapon power added to its level and is Stunned (e.g., Construct's WP: 4 + Lvl 5 = 9 Damage and Stunned effect to Construct). The Engineer is also Stunned.

QM Note:

If the Construct is the last standing party member and is defeated, the Engineer is considered to be defeated as well.

CONSTRUCT

Base Health:

Creator's original health + X per Level.

Base Ether:

none

Weapons:

The Construct may be fitted at a blacksmith with any weapon the Engineer could use before they became an Engineer. Adding or removing a weapon from a Construct costs 25 Gold, plus 5 Gold for each additional weapon carried. Shields may be fitted (if the Engineer could previously use a shield), but Artifacts may not.

Switching between weapons requires one turn

.

Job Trait(s):

Automated - The Construct retain's one Job Trait from its creator's previous Base or Advanced class. The choice should be listed in the character’s stats and may only be changed in the Heroica Hall Training Room.

1. SHIELD: Memory Bank - The Construct uses the Shield effect for its user’s previous Base or Advanced class. The choice should be listed in the character’s stats and may only be changed in the Heroica Hall Training Room.

2. CRITICAL HIT: The Construct attacks the target with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to the Engineer’s level (e.g., WP:6 x 2 + Lvl 5 = 17 Damage).

3. HIT: The Construct attacks the target with strength equal to its weapon power added to the Engineer’s level (e.g., WP:6 + Lvl 5 = 11 Damage).

4. MISS - The Construct misses its target.

5. DAMAGE: The Construct is struck by its opponent.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE: The Construct is struck by the opponent’s special skill.

QM Note:

The Construct is Mechanical type, and follows corresponding elemental strengths and weaknesses (takes double damage from Lightning-elemental attacks, takes no damage from Wind-elemental attacks). The Construct is unaffected by healing, consumables, or Phoenix Essences. If disabled (Knocked Out), the Engineer may expend 10 Ether to repair it; this follows all other rules for revival (as if with a Phoenix Essence).

Changes:

*Engineer buffs reworked into the Engineer's Shield (thanks, Pie!)

*Damage changed to Miss for Engineer.

*Health stat removed from Engineer to avoid confusion (Engineers are considered defeated if their Construct is defeated and cannot be repaired)

*Construct now takes the damage from Malfunction, and is also Stunned. The Engineer is also Stunned by this effect. (Thanks again to Pie for the idea.)

*Weapon suitability rules for both portions reinstated, with the Construct's requirements reworded for concision and clarity.

*Construct Job Trait reinstated.

*Memory Bank switched to the Shield roll; traditional Miss, Damage, and Special Damage rolls instituted.

*Hit and Critical Hit wording simplified. Ranged weapons still work as normal, even though this is not stated explicitly.

While I'd want to see an Engineer-class in the game, there's some distinct problems with this version:

Firstly, the class has no special powers. When you think about it, the construct only has the very basic battle skills (save for the Shield-skill that carries over), none of which are even a nod to its mechanical nature. It has a personal healer who is also a great liability by being able to damage the construct (remember that clerics and other healers cannot damage the person they try to heal). The class is further debilitated with the construct's elemental properties and immunity to items. There's simply no way for the class to do anything special in a battle.

Secondly, the Engineer's lack of health poses a serious problem when it comes to game mechanics. The QMs would constantly have to consider how to take this class into consideration in different situations. None of the other players can even help the engineer in a battle (since items, effects and healing would't work), so the player would be on their own even in a party. Even the engineer's job trait is something that will be dependent on the QMs if it will ever be useful in a quest.

There's just too many issues - the lack of power and the problems with the health being the main ones - for me to approve this class yet, either. Sorry!

Inspired by Sandy's second bit of advice, I've re-engineered ( ) my concept. Here's my initial improvements:

Engineer

Additional Health:

+9

Additional Ether:

+4

Weapons:

Engineers use specialized

tools

for the task, like wrenches, hammers, and gears. They may also use Scrolls, but with limitations; see below.

Job Traits:

Mechanical Expertise - Allows the Engineer to repair, alter, and communicate with various machinery encountered; their expertise also allows them and their constructs to deal triple damage to Mechanical enemies. Synchronous Operation - Engineers share Health with their Constructs, and are Mechanical/Humanoid type due to their cybernetic enhancements; due to their nature, all healing effects (aside from another Engineer's Repairs) are only half-effective. Database - Engineers retain one Job Trait from their Base Class or their most recently held Advanced Class; this Job Trait is shared with their Construct.

Battle Style:

Construction - Engineers build Constructs to aid their party, and cannot attack physically.

1. SHIELD: Eureka! – The Engineer is inspired by an idea, granting a random positive effect to their Construct that lasts until the Engineer rolls another SHIELD. Additionally, the entire party deals double damage to Mechanical enemies next round.

2. REPAIRS/MODIFICATIONS: The Engineer can spend 1 Ether to repair an allied Construct (including his or her own) with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level (e.g., WP: 6 x 2 + Lvl 30 = 42 Health restored to Construct). Alternatively, the Engineer may attempt to imbue an allied Construct (including his or her own) with the effect of a Scroll for the listed Ether cost. (If the attempt fails, no ether is spent.)

3. JURY-RIG/IMPROVISED MODIFICATIONS: The Engineer can spend 1 Ether to heal an allied Construct (including his or her own) with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level (e.g., WP: 6 + Lvl 30 = 36 Health restored to Construct). Alternatively, the Engineer may attempt to imbue an allied Construct( including his or her own) with the effect of a Scroll for twice the listed Ether cost. (If the attempt fails, no ether is spent.)

4. CONTEMPLATE: The Engineer concentrates to regain 1 Ether.

5. FRUSTRATING ERROR: The Engineer's attempt at repair fails. The Engineer swears so vehemently that the enemy becomes

Afraid

.

6. MALFUNCTION: The Engineer's attempt at repair fails catastrophically; the Engineer and Construct take damage equal to its weapon power added to their level and are Stunned (e.g., Construct's WP: 4 + Lvl 5 = 9 Damage and Stunned effect to Construct).

CONSTRUCT

Base Health:

Constructs share Health with the Engineer that created them.

Base Ether:

none

Weapons:

The Construct may be fitted with any weapon the Engineer could use before they became an Engineer, up to three weapons. Adding weapons to a Construct beyond this limit costs 25 Gold, plus 5 Gold for each additional weapon carried. Shields may be fitted (if the Engineer could previously use a shield) and take up a weapon slot, but Artifacts may not.

Switching between weapons requires one turn

.

Job Trait(s):

Synchronous Operation - Constructs share Health with their Engineers, and are Mechanical type; due to their nature, all healing effects (aside from another Engineer's Repairs) are only half-effective. Database - Engineers retain one Job Trait from their Base Class or their most recently held Advanced Class; this Job Trait is shared with their Construct. Backup Circuitry - Constructs have mutiple redundant systems, rendering them immune to instant death. The Engineers themselves do NOT share this immunity.

Battle Style:

Adaptive - The Construct adapts itself to its circumstances.

1. SHIELD I (used when Health is above half): Electromagnet: Draws all non-magical enemy attacks to the Construct next round, simultaneously stealing gold equal to the amount of damage dealt.

1. SHIELD II (used when Health is below half): Overload: The Construct unleashes a huge jolt of enemy, dealing

Lightning

-elemental damage to all enemies equal to three times their Weapon Power added to their Level (e.g., WP:9 x 3 + Lvl 30 = 57

Lightning

-elemental damage to all enemies). After this, the Construct is overloaded, leaving itself and its Engineer Stunned for three rounds; however, the smoke from the overloaded Construct provides the party a 50% chance of dodging enemy attacks and Specials during that time.

2. ADAPTIVE CRITICAL HIT: The Construct attacks the target with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level (e.g., WP:9 x 2 + Lvl 30 = 48 Damage). Next Round, the Construct gains +1 Power for each time it has rolled "Shield", "Hit", or "Critical Hit" in a row (e.g., Hit -> Hit -> Critical Hit = +4 Power next Round.)

3. ADAPTIVE HIT: The Construct attacks the target with strength equal to its weapon power added to the Engineer’s level (e.g., WP:9 + Lvl 30 = 39 Damage). Next Round, the Construct gains +1 Power for each time it has rolled "Shield", "Hit", or "Critical Hit" in a row (e.g., Hit -> Critical Hit -> Hit = +4 Power next Round.)

4. MEMORY BANK: The Construct uses the Shield effect for its user’s previous Base or Advanced class. The choice should be listed in the character’s stats and may only be changed in the Heroica Hall Training Room.

5. ADAPTIVE DAMAGE: The Construct is struck by its opponent. Next Round, the Construct gains SP equal to the number of times it has rolled "Damage" or "Special Damage" in a row, (e.g. "Damage -> Special Damage -> Damage = SP3 next round).

6. ADAPTIVE SPECIAL DAMAGE: The Construct is struck by the opponent’s special skill. Next Round, the Construct gains SP equal to the number of times it has rolled "Damage" or "Special Damage" in a row, (e.g. "Special Damage -> Damage -> Special Damage = SP3 next round).

And here's (I think) something that works a bit better:

Engineer

Additional Health:

+9

Additional Ether:

+4

Weapons:

Engineers use specialized

Tools

for the task, like wrenches, hammers, and gears. They may also use Scrolls, but with limitations; see below.

Job Traits:

Mechanical Expertise - Allows the Engineer to repair, alter, and communicate with various machinery encountered; their expertise also allows them and their constructs to deal triple damage to Mechanical enemies. Synchronous Operation - Engineers share Health and negative Effects with their Constructs, and are Mechanical/Humanoid type due to their cybernetic enhancements; due to their nature, all healing effects (aside from another Engineer's Repairs) are only half-effective. Database - Engineers retain one Job Trait from their Base Class or their most recently held Advanced Class; this Job Trait is shared with their Construct.

Battle Style:

Construction - Engineers build Constructs to aid their party, since their physical blows are somewhat lacking.

1. SHIELD: Eureka! – The Engineer is inspired by an idea, granting a random positive effect to their Construct that lasts until the Engineer rolls another SHIELD. Additionally, the entire party deals double damage to Mechanical enemies next round.

2. REPAIRS/WEAK SPOT: The Engineer can spend 1 Ether to repair an allied Construct (including his or her own) with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level (e.g., WP: 6 x 2 + Lvl 30 = 42 Health restored to Construct). Alternatively, the Engineer may physically attack an enemy with strength equal to their Weapon Power only while also hitting a weak spot, possibly leaving the enemy Weak and/or Frail for the next Round (determined by dice roll; 1=Both, 2=Weak, 3=Frail, 4=Neither). (e.g., WP: 6 = 6 Damage to enemy)

3. JURY-RIG/PUNY HIT: The Engineer can spend 1 Ether to heal an allied Construct (including his or her own) with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level (e.g., WP: 6 + Lvl 30 = 36 Health restored to Construct). Alternatively, the Engineer physically attack an enemy with strength equal to their Weapon Power only (e.g., WP: 6 = 6 Damage to enemy).

4. CONTEMPLATE: The Engineer concentrates to regain 1 Ether.

5. FRUSTRATING ERROR: The Engineer's attempt at repair fails. The Engineer swears so vehemently that the enemy becomes

Afraid

.

6. MALFUNCTION: The Engineer's attempt at repair fails catastrophically; the Engineer and Construct take damage equal to its weapon power added to half their level and are Stunned (e.g., Construct's WP: 9 + (Lvl 30 ÷ 2) = 24 Damage and Stunned effect to self).

QM Note:

Engineers use Scrolls by imbuing their Construct with the relevant effect (which lasts for the stated duration); for example, an Engineer could use a Scroll of Sleep to imbue his Construct's attacks with the Sleep effect for three Rounds, while using a Scroll of Luck would make the Construct Lucky for the rest of the battle. This costs twice the listed Ether cost of the Scroll effect (e.g., 6 Ether for Scroll of Sleep, 20 Ether for Scroll of Luck, etc.).

CONSTRUCT

Base Health:

Constructs share Health with the Engineer that created them.

Base Ether:

none

Weapons:

The Construct may be fitted with any weapon the Engineer could use before they became an Engineer, up to three weapons. Adding weapons to a Construct beyond this limit costs 25 Gold, plus 5 Gold for each additional weapon carried. Shields may be fitted (if the Engineer could previously use a shield) and take up a weapon slot, but Artifacts may not.

Switching between weapons requires one turn

.

Job Trait(s):

Synchronous Operation - Constructs share Health and negative Effects with their Engineers, and are Mechanical type; due to their nature, all healing effects (aside from another Engineer's Repairs) are only half-effective. Database - Engineers retain one Job Trait from their Base Class or their most recently held Advanced Class; this Job Trait is shared with their Construct. Backup Circuitry - Constructs have mutiple redundant systems, rendering them immune to instant death. The Engineers themselves do NOT share this immunity.

Battle Style:

Adaptive - The Construct adapts itself to its circumstances.

1. SHIELD I (used when Health is above half): Electromagnet: Draws all non-magical enemy attacks to the Construct next round, simultaneously stealing gold equal to the amount of damage dealt.

1. SHIELD II (used when Health is below half): Overload: The Construct unleashes a huge jolt of enemy, dealing

Lightning

-elemental damage to all enemies equal to three times their Weapon Power added to their Level (e.g., WP:9 x 3 + Lvl 30 = 57

Lightning

-elemental damage to all enemies). After this, the Construct is overloaded, leaving itself and its Engineer Stunned for three rounds; however, the smoke from the overloaded Construct provides the party a 50% chance of dodging enemy attacks and Specials during that time.

2. ADAPTIVE CRITICAL HIT: The Construct attacks the target with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level (e.g., WP:9 x 2 + Lvl 30 = 48 Damage). Next Round, the Construct gains +1 Power for each time it has rolled "Shield", "Hit", or "Critical Hit" in a row (e.g., Hit -> Hit -> Critical Hit = +4 Power next Round.)

3. ADAPTIVE HIT: The Construct attacks the target with strength equal to its weapon power added to the Engineer’s level (e.g., WP:9 + Lvl 30 = 39 Damage). Next Round, the Construct gains +1 Power for each time it has rolled "Shield", "Hit", or "Critical Hit" in a row (e.g., Hit -> Critical Hit -> Hit = +4 Power next Round.)

4. MEMORY BANK: The Construct uses the Shield effect for its user’s previous Base or Advanced class. The choice should be listed in the character’s stats and may only be changed in the Heroica Hall Training Room.

5. ADAPTIVE DAMAGE: The Construct is struck by its opponent. Next Round, the Construct gains SP equal to the number of times it has rolled "Damage" or "Special Damage" in a row, (e.g. "Damage -> Special Damage -> Damage = SP3 next round).

6. ADAPTIVE SPECIAL DAMAGE: The Construct is struck by the opponent’s special skill. Next Round, the Construct gains SP equal to the number of times it has rolled "Damage" or "Special Damage" in a row, (e.g. "Special Damage -> Damage -> Special Damage = SP3 next round).

Edited June 2, 2012 by Flipz

[CMP]

Damn it Flipz, you've gone and re-complicated it.

[Flipz]

Damn it Flipz, you've gone and re-complicated it.

It's kind of hard not to; less would make it less unique compared to the basic classes.

Anything specific that should go? The extra effects of Puny Hit, perhaps? Double-damage to Mechanical enemies?

[CMP]

Marauder

Marauders are experts in the field of dual-handed combat, and use their skills to decimate their opponents in flurries of their weapons.

Health: +(8 - 12)

Weapons: Marauders use smaller weapons like daggers and longswords, as well as one-handed axes, hammers, and maces.

Job Traits: Flee - See Rogue. Intimidation - See Berserker/Black Knight. Agility - A Marauder's strength lies in flexibility and fluid movements.

Battle Style - Dual Proficiency - Marauders swiftly cut down their enemies with two weapons.

1. SHIELD - SLICE/DICE - If attacking with one weapon, the Marauder executes a short blade dance, dealing the Confused effect to the target and dealing damage equal to three times its weapon power added to their level. (WP: 10 x 3 + level 30 = 60 damage and Confused effect). If using both weapons on the same target, the effect is dealt to the entire enemy party. (WP: 10 x 3 + level 30 = 60 damage and Confused effect to all opponents.)

2. CRITICAL HIT/DOUBLE CRITICAL HIT - The Marauder attacks the target with the chosen weapon for twice its weapon power added to their level. (WP: 10 x 2 + level 30 = 50 damage) If attacking the target with both weapons, add both WP together and multiply by 5. (WP: 10 + WP: 10 x 5 + level 30 = 130 damage).

3. HIT/DOUBLE HIT - The Marauder attacks the target with the chosen weapon for its weapon power added to their level. (WP: 10 + level 30 = 40 damage) If attacking the target with both weapons, add both WP together and multiply by 3. (WP: 10 + WP: 10 x 3 + level 30 = 90 damage).

4. POMMEL STRIKE/QUICK INCISION - With a single weapon, the Marauder Stuns the target for the next turn. If attacking the target with both weapons, the Marauder takes advantage of the target's weak point, dealing the Weakened effect for the next 3 rounds.

5. DAMAGE/PARRY - If attacking separate targets, the Marauder is struck with that opponent's attack. If attacking the same target with both weapons, the Marauder has a 50/50 to have damage halved.

5. SPECIAL DAMAGE/SPECIAL DAMAGE - The Marauder is struck with the opponent's special skill, in either case.

I'm not sure where I would put how exactly fighting would work. Essentially, the Marauder uses two entirely separate weapons, and can either attack a different target with each, rolling a die for each, or he/she can attack the same target with both weapons for bonuses, but losing out on an extra attack. And double-striking weapons like Dual Staff and Grom'Az have no effect. Any constructive criticism/comments? It's more of an idea than anything.

Edited June 2, 2012 by CallMePie

[Waterbrick Down]

Now that I've finally had some time to look at the classes I can make some comments. These are provided as hopefully constructive and I am in no way an authority on how your personal classes may function so please don't take it to harsh. I will preface all of this by relating three points about class creation at least from my perspective: first, I think one of the ways that Sandy's expert classes are so great is that the classes all have aspects at which they are weak or require challenging decisions to be made and I think that is something we should consider when creating our own classes. Sure it's cool to make a super neat class with great abilities and awesome stats, but don't forget about the balance issue, including a weakness makes it much better on QM's who have a hard enough time as it is creating balanced battles. Secondly building on the first point, while we're creating a class I would encourage us to make it something unique and a complete package, don't simply make a beefed up barbarian or an upgraded rogue, create a class that has it's own persona or canon similar to how the existing classes are. Third point, remember to make a class that people would have fun playing, whether it be the role-playing aspect or stats wise, make sure there is an appeal to it. Balance these three points and I think we'll come up with some amazing expert classes.

Zealot:

I really like this class, I was trying to develop a slightly similar class based upon a vengeful fighting style but this one really takes the cake. While it is similar to the Cannoneer's bombardment, I like how its power is dependent upon the number of enemies and thus it can be a really good check from keeping it from becoming too powerful. Since it is similar to the Bombadier, perhaps making it a melee class would help differentiate it more.

Mining Engineer:

I know there are some differences from the Cannoneer but it now seems too similar more so than the Zealot from above, but hey this was before the expert classes were released, so you now know how you can make yours different but still viable.

Minstrel:

I can see how some people may dislike the non-combative aspect of the class, but realistically a Minstrel can definately greatly improve any Party and as long as you keep them supplied with tonics, you are all set. Even without their songs, all of the Minstrel's attacks do some sort of effect damage. This is a really cool class in my opinion and I hope people choose it later on.

Dragoon:

Dragon riders. But seriously, if this doesn't convince people to side with the Shadeaux I don't know what will. The concept of the dragon ignoring its dragoon at later levels is a really nice combination and really lends itself to sticking with a single class once the hit the expert level.

Necromancer: I have to agree with what has been said thus far, if you run into a Necromancer that has a Lucky Die or is stocked up on Nostrum's he's going to have an army in no time. I would suggest maybe a decrease in health points or a removal of the special gaurd for the class to make it more balanced. All this should be taken with a grain of salt as we have yet to even see the class in action. Overall it is a really neat class.

Cannoneer: I'll have to admit that when I heard Sandy mention a bomb specialized class, this wasn't quite what I had in mind, however now that I've seen it I really like it. I like how the class is dependent upon a consumable to be a really good asset to its team even though it has a hard time acquiring gold (taken into perspective, an average quest generates approximately 300-400 gold for a player which goes to about 60-80 bombs which if a battle lasts 5 rounds on average amounts to 12-19 battles which is over the average number of battles per quest, factoring in the upgrading of your weapon and consumables, the class is probably balanced if not, then only on the under-powered ever so slightly).

Alchemist, Chi Monk, Beast Warrior: These all look like really fun classes and seem adaquately balanced and I can't wait to see them in action.

Gem Master: I like the class as it is similar to one that I'm working on called an Artificer that is a support class that focuses on buffing party weapons and armor and items. Perhaps we could combine our ideas.

Bounty Hunter: No problem with the name I can understand it being preliminary, I still feel though that the class doesn't have a defining quality about them except that they are just "cool" and seem to consist of a combination of cool abilities rolled into one class. I guess that may be why I have a hard time figuring out a name that fits them because they don't seem to quite have their nitch. Just my 2 gold, keep working at it I like your determination to make it a better class.

Diviner: It's a good role-playing class, but I don't know if we should reward someone just because they like to play with only one element, we might as well then make a weapon specialist class and have them receive a bonus for only using 1 type of weapon. I do like the future sight thing and think if you could encorporate it more into the battle style that that would be really cool. I also know it's an ether class, but the healing aspect doesn't make much sense to me. Keep at it, it has potential.

Thug: Go ahead and beef this one up more, I like the idea of a class with a fighting style that is down and dirty.

Psychic: This one slightly reminds me of the Minstrel, may be some more characteristics that might differentiate it more?

Engineer: I'm going to let those of you have been going at it, keep tinkering, while I like the idea I have always found it too complicated.

Marauder: Looks good, I like the idea of dual wielding as it provides a semi-hastened effect. The class may be too powerful however, perhaps finding a way to include some sort of weakness would be beneficial. I understand that a player takes a risk by attacking only 1 target, but they're not losing a whole lot if that risk fails.

[CMP]

Marauder: Looks good, I like the idea of dual wielding as it provides a semi-hastened effect. The class may be too powerful however, perhaps finding a way to include some sort of weakness would be beneficial. I understand that a player takes a risk by attacking only 1 target, but they're not losing a whole lot if that risk fails.

There's not a lot to lose, there's just not a whole lot to gain. All of the single rolls (save for Pommel Strike) are about on-par with that of a basic class. The real prize is in how a player strategieses using two weapons - they can halt two free hits, or they can deal some serious damage. Any suggestions on how to balance it, though?

Edited June 2, 2012 by CallMePie

[Waterbrick Down]

There's not a lot to lose, there's just not a whole lot to gain. All of the single rolls (save for Pommel Strike) are about on-par with that of a basic class. The real prize is in how a player strategieses using two weapons - they can halt two free hits, or they can deal some serious damage. Any suggestions on how to balance it, though?

I guess I'm looking at each class from a QM perspective and trying to figure out how I would deal with each class in a Party I was QMing. If there was a Marauder in the group I couldn't throw a single boss enemy because then the Marauder will attack with both weapons on the same target, and I can't send in a group of enemies because then the Marauder will attack two at a time. I agree that there is strategy to the class and I really like that, I guess there just isn't any weakness a QM could exploit directly for the class. A possible suggestion is having only 1 die roll for the attack against two different enemies as this would raise the stakes a little higher if the Marauder missed.

[CMP]

I see what you mean, and you do have a good point. I tried to style the weakness in the class towards its simplicity - note for example, that this class can't use shields, ranged weapons, healing, or spellcasting, while at least one of those is present in almost every other expert class. It's a purely offensive, front-line class, one that you'd have to pump healing into to keep alive. I don't quite understand why you couldn't use single bosses or a group of enemies. They're going to get attacked either way, the Marauder just has to figure out which one would be less of a risk to him/her and more effective to the enemy. The single die roll would kind of put a damper on strategy, in my mind, though. Maybe I should just remove Parry, have the class take full damage.

On another note...when do we get to see the Loan Shark class?

Edited June 2, 2012 by CallMePie

[Sandy]

What's the critique, Sandy? Sorry, I'm afraid of things getting lost in this thread.

Yeah, it's sure have gone crowded here after I gave permission for everyone to bounce their ideas. But since you're one of the people who actually can give out an Expert Class, I'm going to evaluate your suggestion.

I really like the switcheroo nature of this class. I don't think it should be called "Chaos Defender" if the two sides are chaos and order. Maybe the name could be something like "Janus Defender", referring to the two-faced Roman god, or just a "Chaos/Order Defender".

The job traits are a bit lacking. Diplomacy is good, but Track Down doesn't quite fit with the name of the class. Order/Chaos is fine, although the elements should be mentioned in the battle skills as well for the sake of clarity.

Regarding the "ordered" battle style, wouldn't "orderly" be a better word for it? I'm not an expert in English language, so you probably know which has the more fitting nuance.

The shield-skill for both sides is great, the "side-effect" of halving the opponent's health is powerful enough. Rally is a bit complicated, since it feels like two completely different actions smashed into one. The problem with giving positive effects is that they usually last for the remainder of the battle. So maybe Rally could have some other effect, such as giving +2 SP to all allies for the rest of the battle, with the effect being cumulative. That would tie it to the name "Defender" better. I think "Rest" should be replaced with a tweaked "Optimism" so that the full party's health is restored equal to the Defender's level. Never underestimate the power of positive thinking. I just feel like the current Optimism is again two different results smashed into one. Instead of Optimism, Defender should have "Defended Damage" (as the class should naturally be able to equip shields). And since the chaotic side has "Zoot's Blessing", the orderly side should have "Gods' Blessing", whatever the effect of that will be.

With my suggestions in effect, the orderly battle skills could perhaps look something like this:

1. SHIELD: Internal Conflict

2. CRITICAL HIT/RALLY ALL: The Defender attacks blah blah or optionally gives +2 SP for the remainder of the battle to all allies.

3. HIT/RALLY: The Defender attacks blah blah or optionally gives +2 SP for the remainder of the battle to the ally that takes a turn after them.

4. OPTIMISM: The Defender restores health to all allies and themselves equal to their level.

5. DEFENDED DAMAGE

6. GODS' BLESSING: ???

Doesn't that look much clearer to you too? Even though I suggest nerfing out the lucky- and encouraged-effects in favor of SP, the orderly side seems to lack a bit of oomph, especially in comparison to my expert classes. Maybe that can be countered by beefing up the chaotic side. Let's see...

I like "Chaotic Strike", since it fits the unpredictable nature of this side. I just feel that the chaos-side should somewhat mirror the orderly side, whereas currently the two don't really meet up. Maybe in opposition of "rally", the chaotic side could have a weakening skill that decreases the enemy's level. "Hit" could be replaced with critical hit to give some extra punch to the class, and "counter-thief" should be replaced with "pessimism" to mirror "optimism". "Damage" should be "Defended Damage". "Zoot's Blessing" seems a bit random, but fitting.

After these suggestions, the chaotic battle skills could maybe look like this:

1. SHIELD: Internal Conflict

2. CHAOTIC STRIKE/RAZE ALL: The Defender attacks blah blah or optionally decreases the level of all opponents by 2.

3. CRITICAL HIT/RAZE: The Defender attacks blah blah or optionally decreases the target's level by 2.

4. PESSIMISM: The Defender removes all effects (both negative and positive) from everyone in the battle.

5. DEFENDED DAMAGE

6. ZOOT'S BLESSING

Please don't take these suggestions as something you have to change. This is just my feedback, it's ultimately up to you what you want from your class. I trust your own judgement.

The onto the precious feedback given by Jimbee!

- Minstrel: You say that it uses instruments for weapons - will new weapons types be added? Will Minstrels receive instruments upon advancing classes?

You probably missed it, but I already said that the smithy in the Marketplace will soon sell a fauxthril instrument. Like the advanced classes, the players will not get any items upon switching to expert classes.

- Minstrel: They can use scrolls but not gems, correct?

Correct. Their ether is only used for the songs and the scrolls.

- Dragoon: Elemental Breath: I'm guessing the element used when a 4 is rolled will be random, out of the gems that the user has?

The pet dragon can only have one element throughout the game, so the dragoon will have to choose carefully when hitting this stage in the dragon's evolution.

- Dragoon - Level 90?! Seems almost impossible to reach. On that note I think that the experience you gain from one battle should plateau after a certain point. For example, after level 50, say, you would still gain 1/4 of a level. Otherwise I think things would move too slow.

I agree about the experience gain hitting a plateau at some point. After Level 50 seems good, since there will be no new ranks of class beyond the master classes (at least for the time being).

- Necromancer - Raising the Undead: Powerful. IMO, this should nerfed to just allow the Necromancer to command the fallen enemies for just the battle that they were in. With these Expert Classes so strong, I can imagine that there will be a lot of enemies to balance that. And if the Necromacer can carry around enemies from battle to battle, I wouldn't be surprised that the armies would top 30 by the end of the quest (which would make things really hard to balance).

I've been considering the same thing. It's all a matter of luck, really. The necromancer might not roll a single Shield during a battle, and the class's usefulness really depends on the undead minions, so I'd rather they would keep the army of undead throughout the quest. The necromancer itself should probably be weaker, so that the possibility of getting knocked out and losing the entire army increases.

- Cannoneer: I love the Bombarding style, and I really like this class. They do have to buy their own bombs though, right? I mean, there's no ability that grants them more, is there?

Yes, they will have to buy the bombs.

And also just a small note, the 5 roll for this one says "defended damage" but they can't carry shields.

Another undeliberate mistake resulting from haphazard copy&pasting.

- Alchemist: I like this class a lot, too, but I think it should be nerfed just a little bit. To me, Special Guard just doesn't fit and I think it should be a rarer gift. Otherwise it's really hard for the enemies to damage the party at all.

Remember that Special Guard only has a chance to protect from effects. If the enemy's special skill does damage or has some other effect, Special Guard does not affect the outcome.

Some of these seem really overpowered now, but I know that Expert Classes are long ways away and enemies will be made much stronger so that they seem pretty standard by that time. I think it might be hard to balance, but I also think I am underestimating how powerful we can make enemies to balance things out.

There's still time to balance these classes, so all feedback and thoughts are much appreciated. Thank you for these clarifying questions!

[Scubacarrot]

Maybe we need a thread for class proposals only. I have posted 2 so far with only 1 comment (thanks scubac). I don't expect Sandy to be all over each of our classes as they are posted. I think it would be a good idea to piat only well thought out and balanced classes and nit just a bunch of uber awesomes we want to play.

I kinda agree, this thread is getting really full, perhaps it's an idea to just allow QM's to post and comment ideas? It would be a very long while before Non-QM's can even pitch their ideas at this point anyway.

[LEGOman273]

I agree. We need a seperate thread for 30+ Class designing. It could have an index in the first post of all of the WiP and approved classes. Anything Quest-related seems to get buried here.

Edited June 2, 2012 by LEGOman273

[UsernameMDM]

Mining Engineer:

I know there are some differences from the Cannoneer but it now seems too similar more so than the Zealot from above, but hey this was before the expert classes were released, so you now know how you can make yours different but still viable.

Yeah, as soon as Sandy posted the Expert Classes, I was like 'Ah, hmm.' I still like the idea and flavor of the Mining Engineer, but it does need some tweaking as that was my first attempt at it.

Gem Master: I like the class as it is similar to one that I'm working on called an Artificer that is a support class that focuses on buffing party weapons and armor and items. Perhaps we could combine our ideas.

Yeah, I am a fan of Eberron too. Let's work on this!