Heroica RPG - Quest Masters' Lounge

[Kadabra]

Is that why you're called Endgame? You end people's games? By killing them?

[K-Nut]

Eh, beaten to the punch by Endgame.

I'm hoping you're enjoying 79 more than 46.

I enjoy being able to use smoke bombs. It's a shame, because that was such a cool concept for a quest.

Is that why you're called Endgame? You end people's games? By killing them?

Probably.

[Endgame]

Is that why you're called Endgame? You end people's games? By killing them?

It's a secret to everybody.

[Palathadric]

Quest #42 I think it was. Like I said, we were restricted from our smoke bombs.

How odd, I can't recall getting knocked out once in 42 and Erdathcath wasn't either.

[K-Nut]

How odd, I can't recall getting knocked out once in 42 and Erdathcath wasn't either.

42, 46, same difference. I'm cursed with a terrible memory.

Edited September 9, 2013 by K-Nut

[Palathadric]

I don't see cursed as a status effect on Althior.

[Kintobor]

I was referring to 108 Stars of Destiny. I believe that ended in a TPK.

[Flare]

How odd, I can't recall getting knocked out once in 42 and Erdathcath wasn't either.

I think I was way too easy on you guys with those battles.

[Capt.JohnPaul]

There was a TPK in princess-panic too I think. Or did they just surrender? They were kind of dead anyways.

[Flare]

There was a TPK in princess-panic too I think. Or did they just surrender? They were kind of dead anyways.

We were just mostly dead (we gave up )

[Palathadric]

I think I was way too easy on you guys with those battles.

That last battle was pretty insane. We just got lucky. Same thing with our battle against Gontzo and co. If Nessa hadn't kept on getting good rolls, we would've been thoroughly screwed.

Let's face it, none of us really want to have a TPK to our names, right?

Really? Reading Endgame and Zepher's quests, I thought that was the point of QMing.

*quickly adjusts notes to quest idea*

[Waterbrick Down]

That last battle was pretty insane. We just got lucky. Same thing with our battle against Gontzo and co. If Nessa hadn't kept on getting good rolls, we would've been thoroughly screwed.

Really? Reading Endgame and Zepher's quests, I thought that was the point of QMing.

*quickly adjusts notes to quest idea*

I meant we don't intentionally set out to do it. I'm not sure how I feel about QM's being biased towards their parties either, things generally turn out for the best when a QM is neutral serving more as a moderator rather than an opponent or friend.

[CMP]

Same thing with our battle against Gontzo and co. If Nessa hadn't kept on getting good rolls, we would've been thoroughly screwed.

Unless you used a few of those dozen consumables you all had.

[Palathadric]

It's not like we have a rogue on our party who we can actually accept consumable from. We need those consumables in case we accidentally find ourselves in a Zepher/Endgame quest.

By the way, I think my strategy of Paralyzing Erik's blade and handing him a Nostrum would've totally destroyed our enemies. Also, I'm totally mad that I missed out on that half a level.

[Endgame]

It's not like we have a rogue on our party who we can actually accept consumable from. We need those consumables in case we accidentally find ourselves in a Zepher/Endgame quest.

Hey, a Progg Quest is up next to plate. And they're gonna be peaceful this time around!

[Palathadric]

Well, if I get on the quest we'll see how long they stay peaceful.

[Zepher]

What a long and messy quest. Sorry all. I had a ton of fun, but I'd still label it as both those things. I'll post side-quests/my opinion on the thing tomorrow after we finish all the post-discussion, but you can say whatever you want now.

[CMP]

What a long and messy quest. Sorry all. I had a ton of fun, but I'd still label it as both those things. I'll post side-quests/my opinion on the thing tomorrow after we finish all the post-discussion, but you can say whatever you want now.

The concept was one of the best I've seen so far in a Quest. :thumbup: Execution did need some work. I still loved following it along.

[JimBee]

I was referring to 108 Stars of Destiny. I believe that ended in a TPK.

Yep, although that was slightly on purpose. I'm not sure we could've just used a Smoke Bomb and left, knocking ourselves out was the only in-game way to end it at the time. Of course we could've done things out-of-game to prevent that, but that's an issue long past.

On the discussion of story driven versus character driven, I definitely favor the latter with a background of the former. I personally play this game for the enjoyment of character development and interaction (besides the battle system), and quests and the main story that Sandy has established simply set the stage for that. In this case, Sandy is the best QM because only he has the power to do whatever he wants with the main story, and allows the players of his quests to make major decisions about the fates of characters and plots. All other QMs can create that power on smaller scale, but always provide the backdrop for character interactions. I think it's very possible to create a character-driven story, not only because they can make major and minor decisions about the story, but also affect themselves and other PCs/NPCs while doing it.

Now, since 72 is virtually over...

What a long and messy quest. Sorry all. I had a ton of fun, but I'd still label it as both those things. I'll post side-quests/my opinion on the thing tomorrow after we finish all the post-discussion, but you can say whatever you want now.

Indeed, I have to say this wasn't your best. And I'll tell you why because I know you can take feedback.

First of all, the entire story and purpose was muddled. Often I didn't post actions because I had no idea what was going on. Are we supposed to just talk the guests and interrogate them, or is there some action to be taken that will instigate further actions? The good part about this was that we had three or four tries and a lot of room to experiment (i.e. an all-party brawl the first try), but the bad part was that there were no guidelines (except for a little bit from Everstein at the end). Yes, this would make for a more authentic and "real life" feel; there aren't any guidelines to help something like this, but I still feel like the quest didn't have enough structure. There's got to be a balance between structure and freedom, and this quest leaned far towards the latter.

Another huge problem that contributed to the first was the lack of pictures. Yes, I know you're not an expert builder, but if you want someone to investigate something there has got to be pictures. Sometimes a vivid description won't cut it, especially in this sort of quest. We weren't even aware that the four bedrooms and kitchen existed until we actually just assumed their would be and ventured there. There was nothing - pictures or description - to indicate otherwise, which makes me think of how the quest would have gone if we never found Clippard or the note in Marsh's drawer.

Also, it felt like a lot of things were changed or thrown in to attempt coherence, such as the Lady Marsh Blue Assassin bit (and actually the whole love/control potion... seriously, what the hell was going on with that?) or why Avery was hired by Guffington. None of this was explained in the conclusion and I didn't feel any closure at all. Just "yep, well good thing you got the guy, this connects arbitrarily with other Zeph quests". That too; the quest didn't really have a clear plot of its own. It definitely wasn't as story-rich or character-developing as the amazing Guffy 1. Guffington had little screen time and none of the characters (bar maybe Everstien) were interesting. Why should we care about a half-brother-twice-removed of the Hinckwell family, or a poorly developed Selkreeth? Even the Red vs. Blue Assassin part (which was at least somewhat cool for Hybros) felt misplaced.

And why couldn't we kill or stop Marsh on the second or third tries? They didn't even go to bed any time before. Personally, I would've had each party-goer follow a specific route for each jump, altered by only preconceived, major actions (such as death or diplomacy/intimidation). Difficult and ambitious, yes, but necessary IMO because again it felt too open.

One last negative here, and the largest of them all for me, was the lack of roleplay the party got to do. You say that we're the ones who chose to split up all the time, but it wasn't possible not to do so in order to find all the variables (which were constantly changing) and find, isolate, and kill the targets. Having no idea what to do didn't help that either, so I was extremely disappointed with the lack of interaction between the four heroes.

I know a lot of that was harsh, but overall I'd say we were all pretty bored and/or clueless for most of the quest. I liked the loot (COTRA!), and some of the battles were interesting, but disappointing otherwise. Sorry to say it because I've enjoyed most of your other quests (thoroughly - as in, enough to wait in the Hall with the others for several months for this one because Guffy 1 was probably my favorite Quest), but hopefully you'll return to successful quests next time.

(Maybe tomorrow I'll be in a better mood to contribute more positive feedback, I know I'm being very critical).

[Zepher]

A lot of it was harsh, a lot of it was warranted. I'll post my full thoughts after everyone else gets their chance.

[Scubacarrot]

Yeah... So... Quest 72... First off, the concept, the beginning, great, awesome. After that, not so much. There were not enough pictures, it wasn't clear what we were supposed to be doing, and things felt done arbirtarily and random. You know I think you're awesome, so... I agree with a lot of what JimB said, so I won't repeat that.

Searching through rooms for two weeks without any pictures to go on, not finding anything is not fun. We still don't know why Lady Felix was so angry with Hybros, Remedies and Neutralizers mysteriously didn't work, Lord and Lady Marsh reacted differently each time... There is a balance between having a player be open in what it tries, and railroading, I think you did not have a good balance, it would have been better with perhaps choices, in the form of suggestions by Everstien.

I know you don't agree, but I think there's way too little reward for the time (and effort) we spent, but there you go. Also I don't like you show me a great item for Guts, then later arbitrarily state that killing any innocent person would cause a fail for the quest. Not really a fan either of Hybros getting the only cool item, but alright, that happens.

All in all, I want to of course thank you for QM'ing us, thank you for dealing with my occasional grumpiness. Great concept, execution, less so, but there you go. Some advice maybe is to try and find someone else that could help you build? The pictures may seem like a small caviot, but I personally think pictures for everything, every battle, every room at least, could have made a big difference.

[Brickdoctor]

I guess my main complaint would be the equipment and XP. We knew this would be a roleplaying quest, but there were barely any battles, no XP awarded outside of battle, then the one artifact I had that could improve that is the one that I'm forced to unequip — I don't think players should ever be forced to give up all or part of their equipment or inventory — and then at the end of the quest we didn't even get to keep the amulets. There's also the fact that we were continually told that "Guffy 2 is coming" and then only nearing the end of Sandy's big quest did we find out that you wouldn't start that quest until Sandy's was over, which meant that in addition to gaining little XP during this quest, we also sat around in the Hall for a significant amount of time — enough time to go on said Sandy quest.

A lot of the battles also felt like the enemies were tailored to neutralize our abilities instead of having stats that would force us to strategize with our abilities, balancing the battles by making us depend more on good rolls rather than by making us strategize well.

But there was a good amount of loot, so it wasn't a complete loss on the loot and XP front. I know JimB won't be complaining about his Cloak nor I about the Adamantite nor Pandy about all the Gold; Scuba didn't gain a lot, though. The rest of the quest...oh, wait, I don't care about anything else. Story was good. It did feel kind of repetitive when we did the same thing over and over and didn't have a lot of pictures.

[Flare]

That last battle was pretty insane. We just got lucky. Same thing with our battle against Gontzo and co. If Nessa hadn't kept on getting good rolls, we would've been thoroughly screwed.

If I host another quest in the near future, it possibly may appear sometime during this month - I'd love to host you again

[Zepher]

I'm going to go ahead and respond to all of this, because I think a lot of it deserves a response. Again, my main thing is an apology. I think a lot of these complaints are well founded.

First of all, the entire story and purpose was muddled. Often I didn't post actions because I had no idea what was going on. Are we supposed to just talk the guests and interrogate them, or is there some action to be taken that will instigate further actions? The good part about this was that we had three or four tries and a lot of room to experiment (i.e. an all-party brawl the first try), but the bad part was that there were no guidelines (except for a little bit from Everstein at the end). Yes, this would make for a more authentic and "real life" feel; there aren't any guidelines to help something like this, but I still feel like the quest didn't have enough structure. There's got to be a balance between structure and freedom, and this quest leaned far towards the latter.

I agree. I tried a more free form quest, and I don't like them. They won't be happening from me again. I think that I could have hinted more.

Another huge problem that contributed to the first was the lack of pictures. Yes, I know you're not an expert builder, but if you want someone to investigate something there has got to be pictures. Sometimes a vivid description won't cut it, especially in this sort of quest. We weren't even aware that the four bedrooms and kitchen existed until we actually just assumed their would be and ventured there. There was nothing - pictures or description - to indicate otherwise, which makes me think of how the quest would have gone if we never found Clippard or the note in Marsh's drawer.

Pictures - Agreed! I will never do a quest with this few pictures ever again. It is not fair to you all. The kitchen was indicated - the bedrooms were not because they were not supposed to be part of the quest. YOU all incorporated them, but once you did I planned out EVERYTHING that would happen around there.

Also, it felt like a lot of things were changed or thrown in to attempt coherence, such as the Lady Marsh Blue Assassin bit (and actually the whole love/control potion... seriously, what the hell was going on with that?) or why Avery was hired by Guffington. None of this was explained in the conclusion and I didn't feel any closure at all. Just "yep, well good thing you got the guy, this connects arbitrarily with other Zeph quests". That too; the quest didn't really have a clear plot of its own. It definitely wasn't as story-rich or character-developing as the amazing Guffy 1. Guffington had little screen time and none of the characters (bar maybe Everstien) were interesting. Why should we care about a half-brother-twice-removed of the Hinckwell family, or a poorly developed Selkreeth? Even the Red vs. Blue Assassin part (which was at least somewhat cool for Hybros) felt misplaced.

Lots of replies to this part: Firstly, Lady Marsh was NOT a Blue Assassin. Lord Marsh lied to you about it - indicated by the fact that you found the note to a Blue Assassin in HIS dresser, not hers. But you guys fell for it hook line and sinker. Avery was not hired by Guffington. Her employer was pretty much the only mystery you didn't uncover - sorry.

The conclusion - one of my BIGGEST failings this quest. It was irresponsible. I set out to connect this quest to other quests, but I felt bad for the last month or so knowing that would be all the pay-off you guys got. It is unfair. It is bad story telling. From here on in, I will NEVER do a conclusion like that. It makes me sick.

The characters - there were originally going to be more already introduced characters (Issac Shawe, for example, was replaced last minute as BD told me he had plans for him that we all now know). I agree that there were too many new characters. It is hard to do a mystery quest in that regard - you will ALWAYS assume it is one of the new characters versus one of the already established who has done the evil deed. I had to, in some ways, introduce a bunch of new characters, but I agree that some of them were poorly realized. I personally actually like a few of them (Lady Felix, Everstien, Avery) but agree too many of them were poorly developed (Watters, Thomas, The Marshes, Lord Chauncey).

And why couldn't we kill or stop Marsh on the second or third tries? They didn't even go to bed any time before. Personally, I would've had each party-goer follow a specific route for each jump, altered by only preconceived, major actions (such as death or diplomacy/intimidation). Difficult and ambitious, yes, but necessary IMO because again it felt too open.

You could have. If you had taken him aside any of those times, you could have. If you hadn't caused such a commotion and attacked the whole party that first time, you would have found the Blue Assassin then, and known enough to effectively end the quest a second time. As for preconceived routes.... oh, do I have those. Literally, I do, for all the characters. The reason it may have looked like it was crazy was BECAUSE you guys split up so much - with four factors changing things, it was very tough to keep the same stuff. There were too many factors. So that is one of the few things I put back on you guys.

One last negative here, and the largest of them all for me, was the lack of roleplay the party got to do. You say that we're the ones who chose to split up all the time, but it wasn't possible not to do so in order to find all the variables (which were constantly changing) and find, isolate, and kill the targets. Having no idea what to do didn't help that either, so I was extremely disappointed with the lack of interaction between the four heroes.

Another thing I'm putting on you guys. I felt the interaction was weak too. If you guys had exchanged theories and information more, I think this quest would have been over sooner. The battles too were supposed to be easy and quick, but when it was only one of you guys versus someone I made easy for three or four of you guys, it started to drag. I'm sorry, but this is the ONE place I'd actually say I thought you guys fell down on your bit of the contract.

Hopefully it hasn't scared you off from the next Zepher Quest you're interested in, I'd love to have Hybros back!

Searching through rooms for two weeks without any pictures to go on, not finding anything is not fun. We still don't know why Lady Felix was so angry with Hybros, Remedies and Neutralizers mysteriously didn't work, Lord and Lady Marsh reacted differently each time... There is a balance between having a player be open in what it tries, and railroading, I think you did not have a good balance, it would have been better with perhaps choices, in the form of suggestions by Everstien.

As I said to JimBee, all these are valid. Nothing to say but sorry.

I know you don't agree, but I think there's way too little reward for the time (and effort) we spent, but there you go. Also I don't like you show me a great item for Guts, then later arbitrarily state that killing any innocent person would cause a fail for the quest. Not really a fan either of Hybros getting the only cool item, but alright, that happens.

I actually DO agree. I considered giving you guys a level at the end, but didn't go through with it. It was supposed to be a shorter quest, but due to many factors on many ends (BD had choppy internet, I had a more intense summer than anticipated, JimBee went camping, etc.) it was longer than expected. I probably should have added more loot, but that isn't my style. I did add in 500 gold from Marsh (in the bedroom) but I can see to a player like you, who already has gold out the kazoo, that it doesn't seem like that good of a bonus.

As for the great item - I DID say at the beginning you'd be in trouble for killing any of the wrong guests. I HOPE another QM gives you that item. It wasn't in the cards this quest.

All in all, I want to of course thank you for QM'ing us, thank you for dealing with my occasional grumpiness. Great concept, execution, less so, but there you go. Some advice maybe is to try and find someone else that could help you build? The pictures may seem like a small caviot, but I personally think pictures for everything, every battle, every room at least, could have made a big difference.

I agree. I will have more pictures in the future. I like to build all my own sets - call it being an auteur, if you will. But I fell down this time and will NOT fall down on that front in the future.

A lot of the battles also felt like the enemies were tailored to neutralize our abilities instead of having stats that would force us to strategize with our abilities, balancing the battles by making us depend more on good rolls rather than by making us strategize well.

But there was a good amount of loot, so it wasn't a complete loss on the loot and XP front. I know JimB won't be complaining about his Cloak nor I about the Adamantite nor Pandy about all the Gold; Scuba didn't gain a lot, though. The rest of the quest...oh, wait, I don't care about anything else. Story was good. It did feel kind of repetitive when we did the same thing over and over and didn't have a lot of pictures.

The enemies are always made party blind (though I did toss in a Red Assassin for Hybros). As I said earlier, I think the battles seemed particularly challenging because you fought enemies balanced for a number of you one-on-one. As for the roleplaying and XP and loot... I have to say, I did warn you. I've never tried to convince someone to not go on a quest - and I didn't attempt to do that here - but I told you a few times before that it may not interest you as much as other quests because of the distinct lack of your interests in the game. You decided to come along anyway. So, I'm sorry if it seemed underwhelming, but I did actually warn you.

[Scubacarrot]

We actually had a private conversation going where we planned how to overthrow you shared what we knew. Lady Marsh was not the one that hired Avery? Huh. Well, guess we'll never know/find out next in Guffy 3.

Also, just wondering, what does the certificate do, and what does the Lamp do?

Edited September 11, 2013 by Scubacarrot