An amazon type faction would be great.

That would be awesome! LEGO would never do it, never make that many female figures in one set, but it would be so very cool!

I don't think it would fit the medieval castle theme.

Maybe as part of an adventurers theme, it would probably be a rehash of the Islanders from the Pirate theme in the early 90s - up against the Spanish "Imperial Armada".

I don't think it would fit the medieval castle theme.

Agreed. As much as some people love the fantasy aspects, I feel that Castle shouldn't delve any further into that than the occasional storybook wizard or dragon. (and when I say dragon, I mean the classic green LEGO ones) Fantasy, I think, would work best as a subtheme of Collectible Minifigs. Those wanted fantasy 'figs could probably sell well as one or two in each CMF Series, and that way they would leave the Castle and Pirates lines for the fans of realism. Fans can always combine the two if they want.

Both themes seem quite cool in their own ways, however, to me the new castle sets are nicer, as they remind me of classic castle.

Edited August 25, 201113 yr by Elderscroll

Agreed. As much as some people love the fantasy aspects, I feel that Castle shouldn't delve any further into that than the occasional storybook wizard or dragon. (and when I say dragon, I mean the classic green LEGO ones) Fantasy, I think, would work best as a subtheme of Collectible Minifigs. Those wanted fantasy 'figs could probably sell well as one or two in each CMF Series, and that way they would leave the Castle and Pirates lines for the fans of realism. Fans can always combine the two if they want.

The problem with that is you're only talking minifigures. Most fans of the fantasy castle want sets, at least I do, and I doubt LEGO is going to make sets based on the collectible minifigures. And the adventure-type series that LEGO makes inevitably have modern elements like vehicles with the fantasy elements, Pharoah's Quest and Ninjago. So there doesn't seem to be a better place to do fantasy than in the Castle theme.

Straight realistic castles are cool, but can get repetitive after a while. For me, I've always want a Lord of the Rings or Dunegons & Dragons like theme with lots of fantasy creatures and fantastical locations.

But I know everyone has their own opinion and wants. I kind of feel sorry for LEGO who has to try to appease all of us.

Agreed. As much as some people love the fantasy aspects, I feel that Castle shouldn't delve any further into that than the occasional storybook wizard or dragon. (and when I say dragon, I mean the classic green LEGO ones) Fantasy, I think, would work best as a subtheme of Collectible Minifigs. Those wanted fantasy 'figs could probably sell well as one or two in each CMF Series, and that way they would leave the Castle and Pirates lines for the fans of realism. Fans can always combine the two if they want.

I wish they could just do a theme specific CMF Series of just castle/fantasy. instead of randomness. then I would buy them by the hundreds or even thousands!

Well the Amazon women warriors could work if they ever make a ancient greece theme. I mean they did make vikings and ninja. Ninja was more castle, and Vikings was more fantasy. I imagine if they made a greece theme it would be similar to the Vikings using mythology.

I agree that fantasy elements are acceptable every now and then. As I mentioned before, my first castle theme was Dragon Masters (with dragons and wizards), followed by Royal Knights (with skeletons and ghosts) and Fright Knights (with witches, airships, dragons, and possibly a vampire). While this site tends to categorize castle themes as "Historic Themes" in general, I don't think LEGO's in-house definition for the Castle theme would follow that designation. It's even a little dubious here on Eurobricks, as Pirates is to an extent a historic theme-- I suppose the main reason for the designation here is to have an explicit place for themes like Western, Ninja, and Vikings.

With that said, some people have suggested that fantasy elements would help improve the Kingdoms theme, to which I have to respectfully disagree. I think once a theme is established as a fantasy theme or a realistic historic theme it should adhere to that from beginning to end. MOCists are perfectly free to have their "historic" castle and "fantasy" castle themes interact or coexist, but I think it would upset the established status quo in a theme like Kingdoms to involve fantasy elements in the actual sets so abruptly.

To an extent, though, it should be remembered that even the way we think about medieval times from a historical perspective is heavily-influenced by fantasy. This is acknowledged in the novel Don Quixote, which describes a nobleman who adopts his entire worldview from medieval fantasy stories, and who ends up in all sorts of lunatic adventures as a consequence. Although today's history has begun to look at medieval times a bit more objectively, discarding the romanticized perceptions of previous centuries, the way a person visualizes medieval times today is more likely to come from fantasy movies and books than from historical documentaries.

I'll admit I may be a bit biased, being an American. It's possible that countries in Europe with actual medieval history of their own might have a more grounded perception of that history. Still, it can't be denied that the stories of King Arthur and his knights are inextricably intertwined with our historical imagination about that time period. I appreciate Kingdoms for variety's sake, but I think that variety in TLG's castle themes owes itself to some of the more embellished portrayals of medieval adventure.

Great topic! Here's my 2cents:

Kingdoms is the best thing to happen to Castle since KK2 was terminated. While I am obvoiusley a lover of all things fntasy, I really love having 2 human factions to compete and populate the world of Lego. Here is the breakdown of how I see Kingdoms:

Minifigures: Some of the best looking armor, printing, shield art, and horse barding of all time. Very true to actual Middle Ages coats of arms and not in any way cartoony. The introduction of the bucket helm really moved castle mini's into a new light; the early middle ages as opposed to the late, and with it came a ton of useful accessories like printed armor plates and matching body printing. The civilian mini's are also an incredible addition to any castle fan's collection. Without them all we had was MMV torsos.

Buildings: A much more-realistic and true to life design that matched the earlier classic castle in architecture, but made use of earth tones and gorgeous subdued colors. This is the major improvement in my opinion; sets that look realistic and presentable.

Setting/story: Very open-ended and light-hearted setting. The background art is always sunny and very romanticized, as opposed to dark and ominous. Kingdoms projects an aura of happiness and a spring-like warmth, which in my opinion makes for a far greater story-telling atmosphere. The title itself suggests a story of ongoing struggles and I personally would love to see this theme continue with at least one more wave.

Agreed. Especially the end of KK2 part.

The problem with that is you're only talking minifigures. Most fans of the fantasy castle want sets, at least I do, and I doubt LEGO is going to make sets based on the collectible minifigures. And the adventure-type series that LEGO makes inevitably have modern elements like vehicles with the fantasy elements, Pharoah's Quest and Ninjago. So there doesn't seem to be a better place to do fantasy than in the Castle theme.

Straight realistic castles are cool, but can get repetitive after a while. For me, I've always want a Lord of the Rings or Dunegons & Dragons like theme with lots of fantasy creatures and fantastical locations.

I see your point.

I think maybe then, the fantasy lines would do better as a smaller theme on the side, with a D2C set or something every now and then. Skeletons, dragons, and ghosts are okay for realistic castles as long as TLG doesn't put too much emphasis on them, but amazonians really wouldn't belong. I know a lot of people want a D&D-type theme, but I don't know where it would fit. Maybe if Heroica is successful enough, that could expand into the minifig-scale area.

I came out of the dark with Kingdoms, when Castle was disappearing from shelves. I look into the past every now and then on Brickset or BL to see what past years were like. It really seems like some of the old designs have a little bit of that Atlantis/Ninjago feel to them. What I'm talking about are things like large, almost cartoony siege weapons, monsters with designs kind of like Bionicle… And those old "jellybean" knights make me think of the neon Alien Conquest uniforms. I think if I were to go back in time, I would buy very little of, say, the Castle line, for example. It looks fantastic for kids, but for people like me that are more interested in a pretty shelf piece and a fun build, it's not the best.

The discontinued (recent years) themes have plenty of merits. The standard sized minifigs are great and some of the designs are actually neat. But there's just that last 15% that feels a little cheesy for me. I don't want giant trolls or skeletons, but I would have liked those orcs.

Basically, for me, it's not about theme; I don't have a vendetta against high fantasy. I would be tickled pink with dwarves and elves. It comes down to some of the bulky flash-bang designs and the feel of the set designs themselves.

I certainly think that Kingdoms lives up to Castle expectations. And I can say that I really like the minifigs in the line(can't say that about the sets themselves).

But for some reason unknown I can't help but have a feeling that it's kind of a passing-by theme, a weak link between two really big themes. I.e. Castle Fantasy era and something in the future. Perhaps it's wishful thinking, but I am quite sure that soon we'll return to fantasy concept in this or that way: de it a LEGO theme or a Licensed one like LotR.

Good day, ladies and gentlemen! )

I'll admit I may be a bit biased, being an American. It's possible that countries in Europe with actual medieval history of their own might have a more grounded perception of that history. Still, it can't be denied that the stories of King Arthur and his knights are inextricably intertwined with our historical imagination about that time period. I appreciate Kingdoms for variety's sake, but I think that variety in TLG's castle themes owes itself to some of the more embellished portrayals of medieval adventure.

Hmm, what about a King Arthur theme next.....

It could be awesome, but we all remember what happened last time TLG decided to name it's knights.

Hmm, what about a King Arthur theme next.....

It could be awesome, but we all remember what happened last time TLG decided to name it's knights.

Named knights aren't a bad thing. KK2 just went overboard with the kiddishness, colors, and fantasy in the eyes of most of us. After all, beloved themes like Classic Pirates had named main characters. I believe the entire royal family in the original Knight's Kingdom was named.

In my opinion Kingdoms does live up to the expectations of classic castle, better printing on the figures, better building designs....the mill with barn are just AWESOME and animals....lots of animals.

I'm not sure if the fantasy angle would be right for this recreated theme as this seems to have realism as it's base.....oh, minus the giant hammer in the king's carriage set.....the builder of which must have been a descendant of The Joker !

I see your point.

I think maybe then, the fantasy lines would do better as a smaller theme on the side, with a D2C set or something every now and then. Skeletons, dragons, and ghosts are okay for realistic castles as long as TLG doesn't put too much emphasis on them, but amazonians really wouldn't belong. I know a lot of people want a D&D-type theme, but I don't know where it would fit. Maybe if Heroica is successful enough, that could expand into the minifig-scale area.

I would definitely love a minifigure-scale version of Heroica. I really think that there is a place, even if it is a small place, for the fantasy theme to exist side-by-side with the more realistic/historical castle theme. Honestly, I like both, but since I get plenty of the latter, I want more of the former.

Honestly, a deal between Wizards & LEGO would sell like hotcakes as long as it was marketed to D&D players as well as LEGO fans. I already know a lot of D&D players who are also LEGO fans that use minifigures instead of the metal figurines or paper tokens in their D&D campaigns. I've considered it for my D&D group, but I just don't want them messing with my LEGO. lol!

I would say IMO that this the best castle theme I have seen in 20 years. For the first time we got a civilian set in a general theme (MMV is more D2C) It has great sets, no real story line but general ideas that can be built upon allowing for imagination. I myself would prefer it never to end, would like to see Forestmen and Blackfalcons return as new factions and loads of possible civilian sets.

Can't wait to see pictures of the new Joust set which I fear may mean the ending of the theme (like IFS and MMV before it)

Good thing it will be an extravaganza though at least for kingdoms

Edited August 26, 201113 yr by Macoco

This is a very interesting discussion. It's a little odd to me since I really don't look at Castle/Kingdoms or even LEGO in general under these same criteria as what has been presented here.

I will admit I'm a big fan of LEGO Castle in general. I never really even thought of this line to be based on Earth. Rather it was always a fanciful landscape that existed in children's imagination. For example Lion Knights and Dragon Knights don't seem like historical representations of the past but a personification of Good and Evil blown up to abserd levels.

Although the pesant entries did surprise me since they are probably the closest thing to reality I've seen from LEGO.

Put simply I like Kingdoms for the fact that it gives me all the parts I want. I choose to build like an adult but play like a child. I'd even be okay with playing with things from KK2.

Don't get me wrong. KK2 had no concept of what a color pallet is for. And it helps that I'm legally blind, but they did make things that were interesting to play with.

Now I do think Kingdoms was a good move for LEGO since it allowed fans who missed out on conventional designs to pick up some sets. I wouldn't count on the theme to go in a path we can predict since I believe is more interested in capturing imagination rather than following a train of logic.

Sometimes this imagination gets a bit more colorful than other entries. And as always, if they still haven't made that one thing I really want. I'll just build it.

Will

Named knights aren't a bad thing. KK2 just went overboard with the kiddishness, colors, and fantasy in the eyes of most of us. After all, beloved themes like Classic Pirates had named main characters. I believe the entire royal family in the original Knight's Kingdom was named.

Now, I have to say that in 2004 when I was 13 years old I really enjoyed Knights' Kingdom II. In fact, my family managed to get a complete collection of all the "constraction" sets between 2004-2006. Regrettably, I didn't buy any of the playsets after 2004, and in retrospect the 2004 playsets were probably the weakest ones in the theme. But looking back, this is the last castle theme I truly "collected", and considering how much I later enjoyed Ninjago and Exo-Force I'd probably be happy to collect a similarly character-driven castle theme in the future.

I really loved the color-coded characters in Knight's Kingdom II-- I didn't buy the sets for realism. The knights had well-designed faces, colorful heraldry, and great personalities. It was basically the LEGO System's answer to BIONICLE, and obviously it pulled me out of And that was what appealed to me back then, in the closest thing I had to a "dark age". So while AFOLs might have hated the "jellybean knights", for me they (along with the probably-more-important BIONICLE sets at the time) were most likely what kept me from having a proper "dark age", at a time when video games and cartoons occupied so much of my attention span.

Right now my two favorite themes are Hero Factory and Ninjago, so maybe I haven't changed much since then. Set design, of course, has improved, and perhaps my own design sensibilities have matured as well, but would I turn down another "jellybean knights" theme if it were to replace Kingdoms? That remains to be seen...

Well, actually I too am not among those blind haters of KK2, I guess certain personification is good. I mean, yep, the theme went over te top with that, leaving, just several heroes and generic villains in the whole world, but I really wouldn't mind if LEGO introduced some named characters along with generic knights. Or like heroica type heroes: unnamed but still sort of stand-out ones.

However, I guess TLC is doing the right thing and stays on the safe side: keeps everything generic and lets the kids create their own heroes.

Good day, ladies and gentlemen! )

Edited August 26, 201113 yr by The Penguin

Now, I have to say that in 2004 when I was 13 years old I really enjoyed Knights' Kingdom II. In fact, my family managed to get a complete collection of all the "constraction" sets between 2004-2006. Regrettably, I didn't buy any of the playsets after 2004, and in retrospect the 2004 playsets were probably the weakest ones in the theme. But looking back, this is the last castle theme I truly "collected", and considering how much I later enjoyed Ninjago and Exo-Force I'd probably be happy to collect a similarly character-driven castle theme in the future.

Yeah, I know there are plenty who liked KK2, which is why I said, 'in the eyes of most of us'.

That's why I think a fantasy theme would do better as an entirely separate theme. Minifig-scale Heroica is probably the best option to satisfy the fans without creating a whole new theme. (though you'd have to keep around the microfig sets as well, because I'm sure there are plenty of fans who love those)

That's why I think a fantasy theme would do better as an entirely separate theme.

I don't think that the fantastical aspects of Castle theme could really merit a theme of their own, especially from financial standpoint. It might feel different enough for medievalists/fantasy fans, but the themes would overlap a lot in the eyes of average buyers - and most retailers, too. Either the better selling theme would quickly eat out the other (back to the starting point) or the sales of both themes would suffer because of lesser visibility/availability. Even now Lego has so many themes that the ones that aren't pushed aggressively at the moment have quite little shelf space left for them in most shops.

I don't think that the fantastical aspects of Castle theme could really merit a theme of their own, especially from financial standpoint. It might feel different enough for medievalists/fantasy fans, but the themes would overlap a lot in the eyes of average buyers - and most retailers, too. Either the better selling theme would quickly eat out the other (back to the starting point) or the sales of both themes would suffer because of lesser visibility/availability. Even now Lego has so many themes that the ones that aren't pushed aggressively at the moment have quite little shelf space left for them in most shops.

Good point.

Maybe, then, we need a small fantasy line as a subtheme of Castle. The Kingdoms line could get a couple sets to be added onto the side (I'm thinking tied in with the Dragon Wizard - maybe a $50 set of his lair), but keep the fantasy elements confined to those couple sets.

I would like to point out that TLG is more likely going to make decisions based on what children want first then try to fit in what adults are after. The only exception to this is the really large sets.

Therefore, to get a better understanding of where LEGO would be more incline to go we'd probably need to poll fans 16 and under.

I really hat to say that since I love the Castle/Kingdoms lines in all their forms but looking at TLG's business model I know I fall well outside their decision making process. :(

I don't say this to discourage anyone from voicing their opinion. In fact, one of the reasons why the adult community gets heard at all is due to our very vocal approach to LEGO.

I just know I'm very curious to know what the kids in LEGO's biggest target market think about Kingdoms.

Will

I saw a topic like this in the Sci-fi forum for Alien Conquest and thought we could do the same here. Do you think that Kingdoms lives up to Castle expectations? I a Mod could add a poll that would be great. Credits to johnnyvgoode for the idea.

Initially, I was VERY disappointed when I saw prelim pics of "Kingdoms". I was also saddened about the demise of the fantasy-era Castle range, because I still hadn't picked up many of the sets that I wanted.

BUT...with all of that said..."Kingdoms" wooed me and then totally sucked me in and has now become one of my favourite castle themes ever. Go figure.

Definitely. Although I liked the fantasy Crownies that preceded it, I think Kingdoms is a step in the right direction for LEGO, with more civilian sets (Mill Raid) and better constructions.

Agreed.

The sets are much more solidly built and realistic, and for once with a proper gatehouse where the portcullis doesn't stick above the wall. The modular style hearkens back to the interconnectivity of classic sets, which I love. However I think LEGO missed an opportunity with this, sets like the Blacksmith Attack (IMO) should've been built with a "CC Standard" wall so you could add it to the castle.

Absolutely agree! That's one thing I really liked about some of the older castle sets...they could be combined, seamlessly.

The factions are nice as well, much better than the jellybean knights . I can't say I like Kingdom's figs more than Crownies, but they definitely win over the skeletons. The Lion Knights are slightly generic but the Dragon Knights very well done and original with a beautiful colourscheme in dark green. This theme also introduced the great helm (), which is now my favorite along with the beaked helm (I don't know what it's really called).

Yes, I really liked the 'crownies', too and can't say that the lions are 'better'...even the regular dragon footsoldiers are no big shakes...but the dragon KNIGHTS are to...die...for.

However I did not like the shift to the smaller 4 by 5 wall panels, the King's Castle is significantly smaller than it's Crownie counterpart.

Yes, the smaller castle is a bit of a disappointment. A mounted knight could stand on his horse and step onto the top of the wall! Not good.

I already know a lot of D&D players who are also LEGO fans that use minifigures instead of the metal figurines or paper tokens in their D&D campaigns. I've considered it for my D&D group, but I just don't want them messing with my LEGO. lol!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I had the same thought, years ago, and didn't go with it for the EXACT SAME REASON!

Yeah, I know there are plenty who liked KK2, which is why I said, 'in the eyes of most of us'.

As much as I like the new 'Dragons', KKII had the (IMO!) most BAD-AZZ-LOOKING 'bad guys' in the history of LEGO castle. Period, bar none, end of frakkin' story! If the level of detail that we have NOW with figures such as the mounted dragon knight had been around THEN, I'd probably have FIVE TIMES as many 'shadow knights' as I currently have. At LEAST.