Big Cam Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 I don't appreciate being labeled as a non player since I didn't talk as much as others. We all have our own strategies, I got axed on day one of two consecutive mafia games for talking too much, so I switched up my approach in this game. Regardless it was fun, I am having so many "Doh" moments looking back. Also I think I'm just going to randomly vote for staff next game, because I'll likely hit scum. Good game though, and great job def for having such limited access. People here talk about how metagaming against certain players is not fair, but seeing the same faces in the scum line-up once again (although I do believe it was a random draw) makes me think it's totally justified. I still have to apologize for being partially to blame for screwing up the game for the Town. I agree on both fronts.
Hinckley Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 I haven't finished reading all of this yet, but I thought I'd post a couple of thoughts real quick. Awesome job Scum team! We are the Scummiest. I love you guys. CorneliusMurdock worked his megablocks off in this game and was working as hard, if not more than Pandufus and Kiel. Scouts was also very busy behind the scenes. Unfortunately, Cornelius and Scouts spent a good amount of time telling me things and listening to me, but there efforts were tireless. Cornelius proved his worth as a formidable Mafia player by finding the right people to trust and not getting lynched after defending me. He gave his life to expose the Paint Thinner, too. A ballsy move from a strong player and I think that deserves some major credit. The walrus being shown shooting people. Def, you say you did it with Jim and ded but it was me and Shadows who did the killing and that's what you showed. The invention wasn't shown, the kill was. More later! Go Scum!
Bob Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Nice job to the winners. I'm a little disappointed that I wasn't invited to the dead-thread first...I died in the introduction of Day One.
JimBee Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Woot! Great job scum! I won't repeat what has been said about the game (and balance, etc.), but as a scum player in this one I can say I enjoyed it. Thanks to some lucky med choices (and never targeting the Big Fat Pill Bomb by chance), and thanks to our connections with town players, we were able to figure out almost all of the med effects by the end of Day 2. We knew exactly what was going to happen, and did as much as we could to protect ourselves. It was awesome. I also thought that the meds were a fresh idea, and enjoyed that change as well. Even if that stupid Paint Thinner is what killed me. Day 7 - The last pistol weilder was blacked out, for the sake of fairness. On the one hand, if I'd thought of it at the time, the third kill (after scum and SK) should have had its own avatar. Using a walrus almost concretely led it back to Jim and Deddy (and it didn't! there were lots of questions!). At the same time, I'm still 99% sure Jim and Deddy would have been lynched when they did. But still, it shouldn't have been a walrus. Shadows complained, and I thought it was fair, so I changed it. This gave scum a little advantage, but it was partly town's fault for making two mistakes that helped Draggy: 1) his saying the gun giving was optional and 2) town assumed there was only a one-night delay on the gun, when actually there was no expiry on it, as inventor roles often don't. I would complain, but I sort of agree - I was pretty much toast at that point. I could go on to some reasons how the deaths of Amy and I could've been easy mistakes, but I don't care enough. :wink: I considered town pretty heavily weighted with two investigators and a kill investigator, so before the game I was worried it was unfair to scum. And a flavor cop, which is a shame for the town to lose so early since the scum knew what all of the actions did early on.
def Posted October 7, 2011 Author Posted October 7, 2011 Well, neutrals have the ability to align themselves with any party they chose. I thought if Shadows did find out the Serial Killer's identity, then they would've contacted them, in order to be killing two (or three, on nights with the pistol) townies a night. Shadows would've just needed to have reached an olive branch out to Zepher, and not reveal the total tree of Frau's agents. Doesn't seem too idiotic to assume Shadows, the first to reveal the serial killers identity, was a townie. At least I think so! On day one? No. That's just silly. Pure silliness. On day one, the SK is far better off to align with the big number, town. I put a lot of my time into this game and it feels like all you can offer as feedback is insults... Sorry. There can be more feedback tomorrow if you like. It's not meant to be insults, I'm sorry if it seems that way. Unfortunately, Cornelius and Scouts spent a good amount of time telling me things and listening to me, but there their efforts were tireless. Hinck loves grammar. The walrus being shown shooting people. Def, you say you did it with Jim and ded but it was me and Shadows who did the killing and that's what you showed. The invention wasn't shown, the kill was. I meant that Jim and Ded were shown through having the paint thinner. As I explained in PM, it's perfectly common in some games to show the method of death, differentiating the SK and scum, but I should have also made the third style of neutral, not pointing to scum. Got it?
Ricecracker Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Already said what I thoughts in the writeboard, but thanks again for the game Def! Hinck loves grammar. You beat me to it!
K-Nut Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Congrats to the winners! I always suspected that Putnam was going to be some undercover guy. Nobody throws in an NPC like that for no reason.
def Posted October 7, 2011 Author Posted October 7, 2011 I don't appreciate being labeled as a non player since I didn't talk as much as others. We all have our own strategies, I got axed on day one of two consecutive mafia games for talking too much, so I switched up my approach in this game. A number of townies did little more than show up each day. And then they voted with the group, in this case, "I trust Rufus/Pandora." That was the death of town. If you can tell me how it wasn't, I will fully apologize. Keep in mind that a good mafia player isn't worried about getting axed early, they are worried about their team. For example, Pie getting offed day one is no big deal. Pie getting offed day one with the watcher ability is. A proper townie keeps their own list by their computer and updates it daily, and works for their team. It's not too much to ask, it really isn't. Besides Rufus/Pandora, the three townies alive at the end (Big Cam, Roncanator, Masked Builder) and a few more from the days before, were left alive because they were zero threat to scum. Scum can contradict me if they like. That's my interpretation of events. Contrarily, Rick died night one for the same reason the scum targeted him night one of Baritones... Because he actively plays. It's not about surviving past day one, and thinking so is a mafia problem.
Hinckley Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 - Hinck revealing his medicine is a dick move. A fair move for scum, but it removes some humor from the game. Are dicks aligned with the Town or the Scum? I was the head Mason, don't you know? Not sure what you mean, anyway. I never revealed my med. I just called it stupid and useless. I didn't say what it did. How did saying "Is anyone else's med stupid and useless?" take humor out of the game? I think it was 10 times funnier that Brickdoctor picked the Bug Dust and I hit him with the Stupid Cupid so his first post on Day Two was ridiculous! People here talk about how metagaming against certain players is not fair, but seeing the same faces in the scum line-up once again (although I do believe it was a random draw) makes me think it's totally justified. Once again? I hadn't been Scum for two years and this was only my third Scum game, not counting being the only witch in Witch Hunt. But iamded had never been Scum before. I was really happy to play Scum in this, since def constantly tells me I never could because my Town game is so obvious. I think I could've made it pretty far had I not been investigated and tracked. Badboy told me he investigated me and I came up as "Not Town." Eventually, I started a fake Mason's writeboard so he would stop telling people behind the scenes what was going on. That was my one huge freakout. I implicated Jim by telling badboy he gave me a gun and presented him as someone to trust in case badboy ended up dead. Badboy didn't fall for that and had talked to Sandy about the investigation already. Not the best choice considering she forgot. Living one extra day is super fun! I almost directly quoted myself from Roman Mafia where I talked my way out of a similar predicament, but I didn't have time to look for a quote. I am the King of Paranoia and hyper-activity. But, I knew and I told the Scum that I was likely to be lost early since I'm likely to be investigated and tracked. Some night action always targets me on Night One. Same would go for Shadows if we hadn't killed off the investigation meds so quickly. Thanks to the people who told me which ones they were. But I practically told badboy to investigate me. He contacted me on Day One and since I had my hands full with Pandufelius (Pandora, Rufus, Cornelius - which is why I recommended Rick. I couldn't lie to four of my closest EB friends. If it hadn't been for the meds, I would've preferred getting rid of all of them early) and Kiel, I couldn't play "Town Hinck" with a third behind-the-scenes ally. So I did what "Town Hinck" would do and told badboy he shouldn't trust me until he had a reason to, not knowing that he had the investigation med in his pocket. I convinced him to wait a day for me to try and prove that the investigation med gave an insane result, but just killed him instead. I was a little insulted to see that Pandufus would think I would reveal our strategy to them, just to appear Town. It was a good Town strategy but not one I incorporated with the Scum. We did have a couple of people hiding in meds, but they were "pro-Town" meds. The people that were killed off due to what I said were also the ones that showed up last to pick and always ended up with crap. I was very happy to see that one backfire. That being said, I understand the frustration of getting inconsistent info from the host. I understand both sides, of course. I know why def did what he did. But the Town is an un-informed majority against and informed minority and has to take what seems like evidence as fact. It's the only way to move forward. I think the Scum being shown as walruses when we had the gun was unfair to us, a dead giveaway and I understand why def changed it. But, at the same time, it confirmed Shadows to Pandufus, and that inconsistency caused them to trust the wrong person. That being said, I know def was trying to be fair by doing it and I really appreciate that. And I did tell Pandufelius that I suspected Shadows from the very beginning when he first revealed his med. They should've listened to me. Another odd thing the Town did was suspect me for "defending Big Cam." Where did I defend him? It really worked in our favor, but for one, he wasn't Scum, and two, I never defended him. I said it was cool that they both worked to reveal the serial killer but they were stupid at the same time. Really, I was trying to soften the accusation against Shadows, if anything. But, I said the same thing others had said: it was unnecessary for him to reveal his med after Shadows already had. Hey, I didn't mean it. It gave us another target to kill. Well, that was another unsung hero: sok. He never backed down from taking the meds that had been revealed. That was cool, in my book. He picked up the "kill-target" meds and tried to get work done for the Town. Ballsy player! I'm sure I'll think of more. Hyper-Hinck did a ton during this game. And a fair share of apologizing. Rick died night one for the same reason the scum targeted him night one of Baritones... Because he actively plays. True. That's one reason. I nominated Rick and Pandufelius for Night One kill. Rick is always my closest ally in these games and he was the biggest threat for catching me lying. Same went for Cornelius or Pandufus, but I thought Rick would be the biggest threat. He's really megablocking smart on top of everything. Active and smart is dangerous. Knowing Hinck really well was a triple threat. I said maybe we should choose a better target and not kill him just because I didn't feel like spinning such a web of lies, but the other Scum already agreed he was probably the biggest threat, so Rick it was. Sorry, Rick!
def Posted October 7, 2011 Author Posted October 7, 2011 Are dicks aligned with the Town or the Scum? Dick is a state of mind. I only meant that you were taking some of the humor out of my game, but I understand it as a scum Hinck-move. ...since def constantly tells me I never could because my Town game is so obvious. Yup, I constantly tell him this. I have been sending him a PM mornings for a year now, saying, 'you can't play scum!' It was a foolish move on my part.
Hinckley Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Dick is a state of mind. I only meant that you were taking some of the humor out of my game, but I understand it as a scum Hinck-move. How? I didn't reveal anything... Yup, I constantly tell him this. I have been sending him a PM mornings for a year now, saying, 'you can't play scum!' It was a foolish move on my part. You can stop sending those now. But, you said it after two Mafia games in a row. You seemed to be married to the idea. You only said it twice I suppose, but it was a good point. I knew a covert, non-active Hinck would probably be a dead giveaway. So, I played "Town Hinck." It was exhausting. I oftentimes forgot I was lying. def, may I say publicly that I've learned to have such a great appreciation for you and the fun and innovation you are trying to bring to EB Mafia games. I know I beat a dead horse after Bloodbrick I, but your games are fun, you're a smart host and you do your best to bring a good time to the EB Mafia crowd. I appreciate that and respect you as a host. Therefore, I will always bust your balls. Thanks for the awesome game.
def Posted October 7, 2011 Author Posted October 7, 2011 Somewhat addressing Scouts and Big Cam's points a little more.... I don't know what any of you did in PM. My opinion of people's play is based pretty much on who scum killed and how they appeared in thread. So, quite truly, I don't have the whole picture of what anybody did. But, from what I did see, there were some standouts. The standouts played a team game. I think my opinion will always be in favor of a team game. And in more detail, Scouts, an NPC is a non-player character. I'm sorry you thought he was playing somehow. I would rake iamded over the coals for the stuff he said, but he was scum and knew it was BS. I wanted to send iamded a PM to smack him for some of the stuff he was writing about voting for Pelly. But it wasn't my place to do that. Hinck and deddy both wanted to break the meta-rules as scum, and that was their choice. If I was playing, I would have told them both off for wasting peoples time and mental energy. In The Baritones 3, I think my trying to determine the penalty was a far more 'useful' town move. Hinck and Ded were quite obviously wheel-spinning. And you chose to make it an issue. A lot of games have NPCs. For example, Baritones 3 had four NPCs, and Belville had one. So, the last two games had them. In no way was an NPC unprecedented. You didn't play either of those games, but that's nothing I can do anything about. This game shouldn't have had conversions. In a game with vanilla townies, with interchangeable night actions, there is no way to differentiate fairly between townies who are or who aren't convertible. If the scum can convert absolutely anyone, this gives them a massive advantage. The whole set-up was pointing to this being a no-conversion game. Town had three investigators, plus lots of other abilities. That was the balance. EB games almost always have recruitment. I'm sorry if you assumed this was different. In contrast to the original Bloodbrick, which had unlimited conversion of about half the town, this game had a single conversion of anybody. I think this system was more fair and balanced than the last one. And it was a part of strategy. I'll come out and say it, recruiting Draggy (aka Shadows' boyfriend) was a boring choice. I'd rather have seen the deepest player (at that point Kiel) recruited. That would have made it more exciting, and town would have had to register a shift in the player's style. But they did well enough using Draggy. So, I understand your frustration, but I think it was a fair thing.
Hinckley Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Hinck and Ded were quite obviously wheel-spinning. Yes! But, I even found it odd that Pelly was listed with the regular players and Fr. Bloodbrick was not. Perhaps that was because he was giving people clues at night. What clues did he give? I asked Jim to try to get something from him because it seemed like only female players could (the day ended with the females approaching him) but you told Jim Pelly didn't use PM. We converted Draggy because we assumed nobody would think def would make me, Shadows and Draggy Scum. I did want to recruit either Cornelius or Pandufus. Kiel was my choice from the beginning and I considered badboy when he found me out. Ultimately, the Draggy idea won everyone's vote. It was a good idea from Shadows to convert him and it worked out perfectly. He got the Paint Thinner and could cover up the use of it for one more day...
def Posted October 7, 2011 Author Posted October 7, 2011 But, I even found it odd that Pelly was listed with the regular players and Fr. Bloodbrick was not. In the first write up of day one, both the Fraulein and the original, Dr. Blutziegel, were listed as NPCs. But I felt the whole game would lose some narrative value by introducing them that way. Having a solid mafia narrative is certainly my thing. Game mechanics and environment are traditional mafia values, but I seem to want to have a solid narrative trajectory, if my previously hosted games are anything to go by. Fraulein Bloodbrick didn't turn out to be quite as deep a character as her father was, but I was also not as in a convenient place in my life to write her. Still, her and Pelly's tale was quite fun to write while at work between jobs.
Scouty Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 And in more detail, Scouts, an NPC is a non-player character. I'm sorry you thought he was playing somehow. I would rake iamded over the coals for the stuff he said, but he was scum and knew it was BS. I wanted to send iamded a PM to smack him for some of the stuff he was writing about voting for Pelly. But it wasn't my place to do that. Hinck and deddy both wanted to break the meta-rules as scum, and that was their choice. If I was playing, I would have told them both off for wasting peoples time and mental energy. In The Baritones 3, I think my trying to determine the penalty was a far more 'useful' town move. Hinck and Ded were quite obviously wheel-spinning. And you chose to make it an issue. A lot of games have NPCs. For example, Baritones 3 had four NPCs, and Belville had one. So, the last two games had them. In no way was an NPC unprecedented. You didn't play either of those games, but that's nothing I can do anything about. I didn't think Pelly was playing, but rather influencing the narrative of the game and perhaps was more involved in the grand scheme of things than it seemed. I did basically overlook "vote for players", but that was because I broadened my mind too much to include such a scenario where to win the game was to think outside of the box. I sometimes overcomplicate things I'm no stranger to NPCs, but the way Pelly was set up, well, you know. Still, I quickly shut up about it and changed my vote when I saw that it had no ground whatsoever. I could have probably done more for the town, after that day, but then I died, so I left the game with a crazy-theory-now-proved-false and a great sense of betrayal. I'd also like to add that iamded and Hinckley suck .
JimBee Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 True, the only reason we didn't kill Pandufus towards the end was because they smartly protected themselves each night. A loophole in this exchangeable action type setup: if there's a thief action, and the player was around when the choices went up, a single player could hold onto the same action each day. Though it would become suspicious and not very likely to happen at all, it did in this game. Not complaining, just noting that. The thief action was really fun in this game, as it has in other setups.
def Posted October 7, 2011 Author Posted October 7, 2011 Still, I quickly shut up about it and changed my vote when I saw that it had no ground whatsoever. I could have probably done more for the town, after that day, but then I died, so I left the game with a crazy-theory-now-proved-false and a great sense of betrayal. I'd also like to add that iamded and Hinckley suck . No worries, Sassy, you're good in my book
Hinckley Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 So did Pelly give other clues to people? How did it work? What was Pelly's point?
Scouty Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 No worries, Sassy, you're good in my book One of the more enjoyable names I've played under
def Posted October 7, 2011 Author Posted October 7, 2011 So did Pelly give other clues to people? How did it work? What was Pelly's point? Pelly was the mascot. He was interesting. I gave Murdock one hint through Pelly, which I also notified scum about; I let him know that the walrus was a group, and not one person. But really, if I ask you what the point of the Cross-Dressing Construction man is, what would you say?
Hinckley Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 But really, if I ask you what the point of the Cross-Dressing Construction man is, what would you say? Hilarity. I just thought Pelly had some greater purpose or some method for clue-giving like Henry. I was just wondering how he worked with the Game Mechanics. How was he able to give Cornelius a clue? Would he have given other clues? What were we supposed to ask him to get a clue? Why did he always seem like he was trying to say something when the night thread started? You know, that sort of point...
Masked Builder Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Well I had loads of fun with this game! Thanks Def! Even if I posed no threat to the scum I learned a good bit about playing online mafia games this time around. So next time I'm more prepared to work towards getting the scum gone. And I quite happy that I managed to stay alive till the last day. (even if the scum won ) My question is: When's the next mafia game?
iamded Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 I wasn't the only one to start a vote on Pelly... In fact, I never came up with the idea in the first place. That was Amy, who was scum. Muhuhahahaha! I was stoked when you latched on to that. I thought it could help turn the town against you later on. I really did have fun with the whole Pelly thing.
Scouty Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 Muhuhahahaha! I was stoked when you latched on to that. I thought it could help turn the town against you later on. I really did have fun with the whole Pelly thing. Jerk Though, I might've gotten away with it, saying you're the one that came up with the idea, and get you lynched in the end.
sok117 Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 To be honest Def, I think your not giving the town enough credit. I do agree there was a lack of communication and ideas being thrown around. But when you say that this was a major scum tell and that was a major scum tell, I think you need to remember that you invented the game and you know all the roles in this game. The town joined this game with no idea what was going on, so things might not be as clear to us as it was for you. We're all quite aware of the games your capable of making, so people often over-analyze things and it makes it easier for scum to make convoluted scenarios that we actually believe have credibility (sandy convicted over Hinck). And the five agents becoming six makes me a bit mad to because it adds even more of the "what this is is not actually what it is" vibe. The games on eurobricks definitely have to be taken back to basics a bit more, or at least in my opinion. People are getting so paranoid now that I believe they can't even make informed decisions now. Anyways, thanks for letting me play though. I think a lot of my workings went on the inside, however I was communicating with Shadows. I'm also a little disappointed that the scum team was pretty stacked with experience mafia players, which I believe is another trend in eurobricks games that isn't healthy. Sorry, off-topic again, I appreciate you letting us all play and it was fun while it lasted.
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