Shadows Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 Pandora and I had what might have been seen as an unfair advantage - we could bounce ideas off each other without worry that the other might be scum That annoyed me for a long time, to the point that I almost tried to get people to think that maybe one of your personalities was scum and your role was a single player form of the lovers. It just ended up being too hard to plant that idea, so eventually I gave up on it, but it always bugged me. This game shouldn't have had conversions. In a game with vanilla townies, with interchangeable night actions, there is no way to differentiate fairly between townies who are or who aren't convertible. If the scum can convert absolutely anyone, this gives them a massive advantage. The whole set-up was pointing to this being a no-conversion game. You just wish we'd converted you. We might have, actually, if it hadn't been for the uncertainty of how it would effect both personalities. See answer 1. Either possibility led us to trust Shadows, despite the fact that he smells rather scummy in PM. That's just your "it's Shadows" metagaming sense perking up, I was so town in PM that everyone told me everything. Literally, I have you and every other townie revealing meds, plans and speculation all while taking my random little suspicions and running with them. Personally I wish I'd gone with my gut, which immediately after night three was screaming at me that Shadows was scum. Goes to show. Which kind of proves my point. There was nothing even vaguely suspicious to point to me by night three. Later, sure, I was playing games and dropping hints left and right in that stupid way I like to play scum, but not by night three. Heck, with Hinck alive, I was barely paying attention. I only started playing this game when he was accused and near death. That's when I really used what contact I had with people to get them to tell me things and follow my silly ideas. The best being the various noob theories that you seemed to completely latch on to. As for the gut, wait until the next 5 games when we're on the same side and your gut gets me killed for the wrong reasons, then you'll see what I mean. I've been through that particular situation so many times, I already see it coming.
def Posted October 8, 2011 Author Posted October 8, 2011 Well I had loads of fun with this game! Thanks Def! Even if I posed no threat to the scum I learned a good bit about playing online mafia games this time around. So next time I'm more prepared to work towards getting the scum gone. And I quite happy that I managed to stay alive till the last day. (even if the scum won ) My question is: When's the next mafia game? As a townie, surviving to the end of a scum win is usually a sign that you're playing badly. The only other reason to keep you around is that you are being fed misinformation by them and trusting them, or, in this case, you didn't have useful night actions. To be honest Def, I think your not giving the town enough credit. I do agree there was a lack of communication and ideas being thrown around. But when you say that this was a major scum tell and that was a major scum tell, I think you need to remember that you invented the game and you know all the roles in this game. The town joined this game with no idea what was going on, so things might not be as clear to us as it was for you. We're all quite aware of the games your capable of making, so people often over-analyze things and it makes it easier for scum to make convoluted scenarios that we actually believe have credibility (sandy convicted over Hinck). And the five agents becoming six makes me a bit mad to because it adds even more of the "what this is is not actually what it is" vibe. The games on eurobricks definitely have to be taken back to basics a bit more, or at least in my opinion. People are getting so paranoid now that I believe they can't even make informed decisions now. Anyways, thanks for letting me play though. I think a lot of my workings went on the inside, however I was communicating with Shadows. I'm also a little disappointed that the scum team was pretty stacked with experience mafia players, which I believe is another trend in eurobricks games that isn't healthy. Sorry, off-topic again, I appreciate you letting us all play and it was fun while it lasted. Why would anybody be mad at a recruitment? Nobody complained at the recruitment in Werewolf, Baritones, the Forest, Bloodbrick I, etc etc. I really don't get that. The Sandy convicted over Hinck thing was 100% bad gameplay on town's part, and all townies who voted for Sandy (including Draggy!) should be embarrassed. And Shadows did have a massive scum tell that day. He contradicted his own logic on day two. On day two, he saw Zepher target Rice, and Rice died. Therefore, the vote was for Zepher. On day three, Hinck was seen targeting Tammo, and Tammo died. Then Shadows votes for Sandy. That has nothing to do with wacky night actions, it has to do with reading the thread, paying attention, and doing the math. If you log in, see a bunch of people voting for someone, and say, "Okay, I'll do that," you hurt your team. Day three really pissed me off. Eight townies voted for Hinck, and seven voted for Sandy. Would you like me to give more credit to town for that? Perhaps if town had people actively being logical for them, that lynch wouldn't have happened. And I considered this game more "back to basics" than any other game this year, except for the no-role Belville Mafia. There were no tricks. Roles were what they were, and clearly explained. No secret exploding grenades. The variable actions was a twist of the game, but it was all above the table, and I really figured it would get more 'vanilla townies' to participate. It didn't Lastly, the scum team was a random lot. It wasn't stacked. If it was four of them and you, I'm sure you wouldn't be complaining. If you want to complain, complain to God, since it was a luck thing. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Overall, my feelings on the players here are this: The same players rise to the top, over and over. In this game, everyone had the same opportunities, but the townies who stood out were Rufus/Pandora, Kiel, and Cornelius. Unsurprisingly, they are players who have stood out in past games they've played. Why is this? Sheer effort. The rest are trying to survive every night/stay in the pack. If every EB player had a pro-active attitude about playing, the scum would be forced to be more active, and drastically increase the chance that they slip up. But instead, scum can lie low and match the laziest players. By day seven, the scum barely posted and just copied the same refrain, "Pandufus hasn't led us wrong." As scum, it's easy to blend into a flock of sheep. If townies had their own opinions, and acted on them, the games would be far different. Another example, Brickdoctor (Sorry Brickdoctor). He was being convicted and his defense was, "I'm town, you'll see tomorrow." How can anybody work with that? Answer, they can't. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So Sok, I can't judge your playing well, you died too soon. But, on the whole, this was an easy game for scum, far easier than the first Bloodbrick, where the scum had town actively sniffing them out. I feel in this game that town just put the weight on a few players' shoulders and then sat around. That is an overall opinion, and not a personal indictment on anyone in particular. If you see things differently, so be it
Shadows Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 And Shadows did have a massive scum tell that day. He contradicted his own logic on day two. Guess how I justified that! Reverse metagaming! I told people that I was trying to avoid metagaming Hinck and getting in a fight that would get us both killed like I usually do. I mentioned that every time it happens, we're both town and end up ruining our games.
Brickdoctor Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 Another example, Brickdoctor (Sorry Brickdoctor). He was being convicted and his defense was, "I'm town, you'll see tomorrow." How can anybody work with that? Answer, they can't. No problem. I know I played pretty badly. I'm far too trusting and quiet when it comes to Mafia.
Zepher Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 Def. You run a killer game. Shadows, you got me easy Day 2. Maybe I should have put up more of a fight, but between you and Big Cam... and with you being smart enough to test out the Red Devils... I really felt like I couldn't do anything. I did follow the game after I died, and while I see some of Def's points, I didn't pick up on scum as easily. Some games, especially near the end, I can find scum - but it's nearly always after I'm dead. Other than Shadows, I had no one pinned. Shadows, I'm afraid when you get too helpful. Always. Paranoia. So scum, well played. Some town, very well played. Pandarufus - I had the same exact fear as Shadows. I really could see you being a scum town combo, that would have been cool. If I had been alive, I would have believed him.
Scouty Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 Def. You run a killer game. Shadows, you got me easy Day 2. Maybe I should have put up more of a fight, but between you and Big Cam... and with you being smart enough to test out the Red Devils... I really felt like I couldn't do anything. It's a good thing I made him target you on night one with the strawberry dust... Yikes. Seriously, was there anything I did in this game that didn't benefit the scum?
def Posted October 8, 2011 Author Posted October 8, 2011 I did follow the game after I died, and while I see some of Def's points, I didn't pick up on scum as easily. I want to be really clear about my personal frustration while hosting. It wasn't that town wasn't solving everything and accurately catching any scum tells, it was that I didn't see many people trying. For example, I made a comment about Flitwick's hypotheses in my summary, and while I think his logic was off, I appreciate that style of play more. I think it's better to try to figure things out and be wrong than to just stay alive to the end of the game. So, as I mentioned in the afterlife writeboard, if I were playing, I might be equally befuddled about who the scum were. But the effort is what I consider most important.
Zepher Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 I want to be really clear about my personal frustration while hosting. It wasn't that town wasn't solving everything and accurately catching any scum tells, it was that I didn't see many people trying. For example, I made a comment about Flitwick's hypotheses in my summary, and while I think his logic was off, I appreciate that style of play more. I think it's better to try to figure things out and be wrong than to just stay alive to the end of the game. So, as I mentioned in the afterlife writeboard, if I were playing, I might be equally befuddled about who the scum were. But the effort is what I consider most important. Not saying you're being unfair in your comments. I'm just saying that on top of a little bit of a lazy town, the scum played a killer game.
Shadows Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 Shadows, you got me easy Day 2. Maybe I should have put up more of a fight, but between you and Big Cam... and with you being smart enough to test out the Red Devils... I really felt like I couldn't do anything. It was a lucky break combined with another lucky break since Draggy coincidentally chose the same drug that you'd had. He wasn't even scum yet. Pandarufus - I had the same exact fear as Shadows. I really could see you being a scum town combo, that would have been cool. If I had been alive, I would have believed him. It would have been a great role, no doubt about it. The other fun role would have been if Draxia and Heng had actually been some twisted form of lovers where she was turned to scum by his death. Of course she already was scum by then, but that's not the point! Bonus points for making it look like she might die when he did in the conclusion. I really did have to scan ahead a bit to make sure that wasn't the case. It's a good thing I made him target you on night one with the strawberry dust... Yikes. Seriously, was there anything I did in this game that didn't benefit the scum? I really hated killing you.
Rick Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 True. That's one reason. I nominated Rick and Pandufelius for Night One kill. Rick is always my closest ally in these games and he was the biggest threat for catching me lying. Same went for Cornelius or Pandufus, but I thought Rick would be the biggest threat. He's really megablocking smart on top of everything. Active and smart is dangerous. Knowing Hinck really well was a triple threat. I said maybe we should choose a better target and not kill him just because I didn't feel like spinning such a web of lies, but the other Scum already agreed he was probably the biggest threat, so Rick it was. Sorry, Rick! I'm flattered. def, you ran another great game. It's a neat new idea to bring to Eurobricks, even though it probably didn't liven up the game as much as you hoped for. What I don't really like about these concepts is that you have to be around when the meds go out (but the same goes for 'Henry' in BB1 and 'the frog' in The Forest). This is particularly problematic for the town early on as they can't coordinate their actions (ok, the scum won't always be jumping on the useful meds immediately either). However, I would have loved to actually play this and figure it out. And, I agree that you should have shown the 'med-kill' 'neutrally' from the start. I don't necessarily think showing a differently coloured walrus gave it away as a scum kill (although it did clearly hint in that direction), but I can imagine the confusion it caused having it changed mid-game.
def Posted October 8, 2011 Author Posted October 8, 2011 def, you ran another great game. It's a neat new idea to bring to Eurobricks, even though it probably didn't liven up the game as much as you hoped for. What I don't really like about these concepts is that you have to be around when the meds go out (but the same goes for 'Henry' in BB1 and 'the frog' in The Forest). This is particularly problematic for the town early on as they can't coordinate their actions (ok, the scum won't always be jumping on the useful meds immediately either). However, I would have loved to actually play this and figure it out. Thanks The timing is important. When I played this kind of game in the past, it was on a daily schedule, so there was a certain favoritism to people in the right time zones, with the right schedule, but I tried to balance that by splitting the medicine into two shifts, meaning that there was a balanced randomness to it, and it didn't favor any side too much. I'd be curious to host a daily mafia game here. I've mentioned it before I'm sure, but once I started playing elsewhere, I was utterly lost when the day ended 12 hours in. My play is certainly better when the hosts are in Australia than when they're in Canada. But, maybe we can do a 24/12 experiment here some time, 24 hour days, 12 hour nights, that doesn't favor any time zone too much. And, I agree that you should have shown the 'med-kill' 'neutrally' from the start. I don't necessarily think showing a differently coloured walrus gave it away as a scum kill (although it did clearly hint in that direction), but I can imagine the confusion it caused having it changed mid-game. Yup. That was a mistake Truthfully, the gun inventor mechanism was meant to throw the town into a little bit of confusion. You had to give out a gun (it wasn't optional as Draggy wrote). It meant that you had to trust someone somewhat to give it to them or take a gamble. But it also made the gun investigator more of a challenge as the game went on, and more and more players might have a kill ability. As it turned out, scum lucked into it early on, and I got quite giddy at the thought of a double walrus kill. It was a lack of planning on my part. I had the whole game planned out except how to represent the killings. On the first night, I had to decide whether to do the traditional EB style night scenes, or repeat the morning report style of the first Bloodbrick, and right then and there I decided to do the EB style. That was my planning failure.
Rufus Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 Why would anybody be mad at a recruitment? Nobody complained at the recruitment in Werewolf, Baritones, the Forest, Bloodbrick I, etc etc. I really don't get that. The narrative and game mechanic pointed to there being no conversions. Fraulein appointed five agents. This is explicitly stated. For them to then recruit more doesn't fit the storyline well. Coupled with the lack of fixed power roles to determine convertibility, this strongly implies no conversions. Given that other people were put out by this shows that it certainly added to the town's confusion. The Sandy convicted over Hinck thing was 100% bad gameplay on town's part, and all townies who voted for Sandy (including Draggy!) should be embarrassed. And Shadows did have a massive scum tell that day. He contradicted his own logic on day two. On day two, he saw Zepher target Rice, and Rice died. Therefore, the vote was for Zepher. On day three, Hinck was seen targeting Tammo, and Tammo died. Then Shadows votes for Sandy. Shadows's logic on day 2 was impeccable - Zepher was seen targeting Ricey, and his meds did nothing. On night 2, Hinckley had the magic beans, so could have been targeting Tammo for that reason. Sok's revelation alone was not enough to pin Hinckley. With the vote so finely balanced, anyone coming out strongly to defend Sandy would probably have swayed the vote further towards Sandy. Though I'm mystified as to why it wasn't more obvious to everyone else that Sandy was town. By day 4, town were screwed. We hadn't had time to build up trust. That we then made three straight scum lynches, then one mistake, and then lost the game, makes it highly unlikely we could have won after the day 3 mistake. def said in the Afterlife that town should look at the voting record. This is exactly what we did, but it actually points quite squarely at Brickdoctor and Cam. In the only two days where any information could be gained - days 1 and 3 - both voted early, and on day 3 at crucial points. This was the main reason we went for Brickdoctor on day 7. Big Cam would have been next, but for the fact that the Gunsmith action - assuming it worked in a standard way - actually did clear him, despite Hinckley's arguments to the contrary. We didn't spot that till too late. That's just your "it's Shadows" metagaming sense perking up, I was so town in PM that everyone told me everything. Literally, I have you and every other townie revealing meds, plans and speculation all while taking my random little suspicions and running with them. You said a load of things that were suspicious. You said something about using the gun would mean having to use your meds. You persistently defended Dragonator (I admit I talked myself out of that one). These alone would have been give-aways, had it not been for the game pointing to you being town. Which kind of proves my point. There was nothing even vaguely suspicious to point to me by night three. We were suspicious of you because you told a load of people you were going to investigate Sok and he wound up dead. But, as I said before, when we erroneously assumed there were no conversions, the lack of night kill pointed to you being Town. Even then we were careful, but the blacked out figure killing Alopex confirmed you as Town. For me, that's a game-breaker.
def Posted October 8, 2011 Author Posted October 8, 2011 The narrative and game mechanic pointed to there being no conversions. Fraulein appointed five agents. This is explicitly stated. For them to then recruit more doesn't fit the storyline well. Coupled with the lack of fixed power roles to determine convertibility, this strongly implies no conversions. Given that other people were put out by this shows that it certainly added to the town's confusion. We'll have to agree to disagree. Conversions were never brought up, and the lack of fixed power roles had no relation to it, it was an assumption on some people's part. There were five agents to start, that was correct. The narrative didn't elaborate on that. But to say that since there were no set abilities there was no recruiting is a stretch. Would it have made more narrative sense for her to say on day one that there are five agents and one more may be recruited? That sounds pretty silly to me. Mafia games need some consistency, but there's also some flow from game to game. In some games, ability players are recruitable. EB games tend not to have abilities be recruitable, but that's an EB habit, and not one I feel obligated to follow, though it was the case in this game. We were suspicious of you because you told a load of people you were going to investigate Sok and he wound up dead. But, as I said before, when we erroneously assumed there were no conversions, the lack of night kill pointed to you being Town. Even then we were careful, but the blacked out figure killing Alopex confirmed you as Town. For me, that's a game-breaker. Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. To show a walrus killing Alopex would unfairly have fingered Draggy. That would be unfair, and I think I would have much more to apologize for if I'd done that. Saying it confirmed Shadows as town was an assumption. I'm sorry if you feel cheated, but there was no way around it for me. And the kill investigator worked fine. All town, without a gun, would come up clean. Scum, SK, and armed town would have shown to have a kill ability. For looking at the voting record, it was more difficult this game, since Shadows and Draggy made a point of voting out their teammates early. But we can see that they all voted for Sandy. Whatever Shadows meta-explanation for that was, it was BS, and contradicted his pissiness in Baritones 3 when he thought everyone was foolish for not trusting the person who was putting themselves on the line (in that case, Roncanator, in this case, Sandy). But, the voting record was harder to use this time around. Whitefang in particular would have been hard to peg. But that is simply another argument for active players. If more people were active, Whitefang would have stuck out more. A major incrimination of the scum was the doctor surviving so long. Scum were able to take out all roles, but the doctor kept living until Kiel took it. If we have another game of this style in the future, people's strategies will be a lot better from day one, and we can see how they coordinate themselves ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Anyway, here's the record of the night actions, and I'll throw it into the first post too. White meant regular night actions I needed PMs for, purple meant passive abilities, and light gray meant no action. When meds were taken out,
Hinckley Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 Big Cam would have been next, but for the fact that the Gunsmith action - assuming it worked in a standard way - actually did clear him, despite Hinckley's arguments to the contrary. We didn't spot that till too late. I followed everything you said except for this. Did the gun inventor clear Big Cam? I don't remember arguing against that. Perhaps my brain is all locked up.
Rufus Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 I followed everything you said except for this. Did the gun inventor clear Big Cam? I don't remember arguing against that. Perhaps my brain is all locked up. The White Crystals - Gunsmith (kill cop) cleared Cam.
XimenaPaulina Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 Would it have made more narrative sense for her to say on day one that there are five agents and one more may be recruited? With or without the conversion, I think it would have been better if the "initial" number of scum was not mentioned on the start and simply just remained a mystery like in most of the past EB games. Just out of curiosity, what's the reason behind stating the specific number of 5 Frau's agents at the start of the game? To be different with the other previous games probably?
def Posted October 8, 2011 Author Posted October 8, 2011 With or without the conversion, I think it would have been better if the "initial" number of scum was not mentioned on the start and simply just remained a mystery like in most of the past EB games. Just out of curiosity, what's the reason behind stating the specific number of 5 Frau's agents at the start of the game? To be different with the other previous games probably? The main reason was for the story of it. In the first Bloodbrick, there were five scum and one recruit, and I thought it fitting to mirror that. The character Bloodbrick wanted to mirror the conditions of the first game. So she stated there were five scum up front. Honestly, I take most criticisms to heart, and this point isn't one. I don't think it would have affected town's play one bit if they didn't know the number, or they knew there was a possible recruitment. It is never stated in EB games whether there is recruitment (in my memory), and this game was no different. If anything, when the number five was thrown out in the way it was, I would have started to assume there would be a recruitment since it would mirror the first game, and that was what that narrative bit was getting at, that, in the story, Bloodbrick was repeating the game of the past. I clearly stated before the game there was a single neutral. I clearly stated there was five scum. Nothing was said about recruitment. There was nothing to mislead anyone. Any assumptions on that front are the responsibility of the players. Sorry, I can't express this any more clearly.
Rick Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 I clearly stated before the game there was a single neutral. I clearly stated there was five scum. Nothing was said about recruitment. There was nothing to mislead anyone. Any assumptions on that front are the responsibility of the players. Sorry, I can't express this any more clearly. I think the fact that it was so clearly stated there was one neutral SK and 5 scum (true, you said there was one SK, Fraulein said there were 5 scum), made the town - me included - think you were trying to make clear that the number of scum was fixed. So, I kind of agree with Kiel on that one. But you have a point of course that the town shouldn't just assume things.
Sandy Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 To give some positive feedback for a change, my favorite moment from this game would be this: Priceless!
XimenaPaulina Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 Ah ok it's now clear, sorry I wasn't aware of the 5+1 in the first Bloodbrick since I wasn't able to follow it. If I had known that fact, then it would have made sense and I would have certainly considered the possibility of conversion early in the game. Which makes me wonder why the Townies who played Bloodbrick I didn't bring this up during the game (except for Rufus privately)...
CMP Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 To give some positive feedback for a change, my favorite moment from this game would be this: *Insert fitting end here* Priceless! A good way to go out, but....I don't like K-Girl's look in this picture.
XimenaPaulina Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 But you have a point of course that the town shouldn't just assume things. Harsh lesson learned for all of us to always explore the possibilities, no matter how remotely we think it could happen. A good way to go out, but....I don't like K-Girl's look in this picture. I didn't even know Kelly was on that pic, maybe she was 'envious' of Beastie's, uhm, you know what...
def Posted October 8, 2011 Author Posted October 8, 2011 Harsh lesson learned for all of us to always explore the possibilities, no matter how remotely we think it could happen. I wasn't on town's side, so I can't really say how it would have been interpreted if it were me. I was really thinking that everyone on here expected recruitments since they happen in most every game.
Shadows Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 You said a load of things that were suspicious. You said something about using the gun would mean having to use your meds. You asked if using the gun also meant using my med for that night, and I said that I assumed it would, which was actually true. The fact that I didn't use the gun on a night when I had a med that had to be used ended up being a coincidence, so I never had to find out if that would have been required or not. To be honest, since none of the town ever had a gun to use, we may never know how that was supposed to work, but it's funny that something that I was honest about seemed suspicious enough to stand out. You persistently defended Dragonator (I admit I talked myself out of that one). These alone would have been give-aways, had it not been for the game pointing to you being town. Yeah, that was my line in the sand. We've given up enough people, it was either stop there or just get steamrolled. but the blacked out figure killing Alopex confirmed you as Town. For me, that's a game-breaker. The game breaker came long before that and gave the town most of it's successes, it was appearing as a walrus without our having any knowledge that this would happen. It's something that has never been done in an EB game, though it's common in games def plays elsewhere. The difference here was the meds. Combining a direct visual clue to the alignment of the killer with openly given meds is way too much. On the one hand, it could be used to identify scum absolutely, and on the other, it could create an unquestionably loyal townie. Had we known it would happen, we would have simply manipulated the town into making and using guns on each other and never dirtied our own hands. I certainly wouldn't have had Draggy make one, then tell you directly that he'd given it to me. The whole situation would have been easily avoided. It would have been a lot easier for us, much less reason to ever suspect any of us and no potential to be caught in the act. That said, I think I could have talked my way out of it even if I had been shown and the town never could have proven otherwise without killing me, something that you may have been willing to do, but from everything I was hearing at the time, enough of the others wouldn't have. Heck, they didn't want to kill Hinck until he practically oinked in their faces. I wasn't on town's side, so I can't really say how it would have been interpreted if it were me. I was really thinking that everyone on here expected recruitments since they happen in most every game. I still don't get the complaints on this one, there's always at least one conversion, knowing how many scum there are at the start is just a bonus you don't always get. I would have expected a drug induced conversion just based on the setting.
def Posted October 8, 2011 Author Posted October 8, 2011 It's something that has never been done in an EB game, though it's common in games def plays elsewhere. Here is an example from the last game I played off EB, also a varying med game. The style of killing tells the killer, which was established in the beginning of the game. As a further bonus, the ability of the dead players is revealed, which I don't find particularly useful, so I didn't borrow that game mechanic. Strangely, I don't remember being killed so early in the game The above examples are from an Arthurian Camelot game, hence the use of chalices.
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