JimBee Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 We'll have to agree to disagree. Conversions were never brought up, and the lack of fixed power roles had no relation to it, it was an assumption on some people's part. There were five agents to start, that was correct. The narrative didn't elaborate on that. But to say that since there were no set abilities there was no recruiting is a stretch. Would it have made more narrative sense for her to say on day one that there are five agents and one more may be recruited? That sounds pretty silly to me. The narrative should never have anything to do with how the game is played, unless this host specifically says it will (for the purposes of clues, etc.). I wouldn't count the mentioning of the number of scum as this (or explaining the parameters of the game), but otherwise the narrative shouldn't do anything except add flavor. At least, that's what I've come to understand. I know EB is a lot different when it comes to Mafia, but a true mafia game would separate its narrative and game mechanics.
Shadows Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 The style of killing tells the killer, which was established in the beginning of the game. As a further bonus, the ability of the dead players is revealed, which I don't find particularly useful, so I didn't borrow that game mechanic. Strangely, I don't remember being killed so early in the game Established in the beginning of the game being the key phrase. Is that 'it happened the first time" or "it was known before the first time"? I think it's a perfectly fair mechanic as long as it's known in advance. Challenging, but fair. Plus, in that example, isn't the revealed killer also leaving the game after successfully completing a win condition? The above examples are from an Arthurian Camelot game, hence the use of chalices. Look interesting. Looks familiar... Good stuff.
Sandy Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 Look interesting. Looks familiar... Good stuff. The chalices reminded me of that scene as well. "The chalice from the palace has the brew that is true!"
Masked Builder Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 As a townie, surviving to the end of a scum win is usually a sign that you're playing badly. The only other reason to keep you around is that you are being fed misinformation by them and trusting them, or, in this case, you didn't have useful night actions. True but I usually don't contact anyone and wait for them to contact me and set up something. I'm going to try to work on the way I play mafia games from now on.
def Posted October 8, 2011 Author Posted October 8, 2011 Established in the beginning of the game being the key phrase. Is that 'it happened the first time" or "it was known before the first time"? I think it's a perfectly fair mechanic as long as it's known in advance. Challenging, but fair. Plus, in that example, isn't the revealed killer also leaving the game after successfully completing a win condition? It's established in that the game lists all the characters before the game, listing the scum as characters (Mordred, Lancelot, the Lady of the Lake). It's not all that different to Baritones 3, where (smart) players knew the poisoner was the SK; the Forest, where players knew the arsonist was the SK; and Bloodbrick I, where the scum strung people up, while the SK had a separate kill. So it doesn't seem to be all that foreign to EB. The mistake was not making the pistol killer without an allegiance. In that example, I really can't remember what the situation is, but I don't think a win condition was being reached (though in that site's games, early winners like the Jester are confirmed at the time). Here are some clips from the opening of the game: It is the Dark Ages, a time of mysticism, mythology and bloody violence. A shining beacon of virtue and nobility stands proudly at Camelot, home of King Arthur, the Knights of the Round Table and his trusted advisors, including the powerful wizard, Merlin. But treachery and deceit lurk in the dark hearts of those who would wish to see Camelot destroyed. Evil forces are at work to mislead, betray and kill the just and the pure of heart. Each evening, a feast will be held in the banqueting hall of Camelot and each player is invited to take his or her place at their chosen position at the Round Table. However, at each place setting is a chalice of wine. Each chalice is unique and may bestow certain powers upon the player who drinks from it. But be warned, evil doers will poison one chalice per night and under the influence of alcohol, other strange things may happen during each nightly feast. Murder most foul may occur and legend has it that the Lady of the Lake visits Camelot each evening and spirits someone across the veil between the worlds, never to be seen again on this earth. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ During the Night Round, from 22.00 – 10.00 BST, the bad guys choose a chalice to poison. The holder of that chalice will die and the chalice will be removed from the game. Morgan Le Fay also chooses a named player to stab and mortally wound. The Lady of the Lake chooses a player to take across the veil between the worlds. The good guys must wipe out all the bad guys (this does not include the Lady of the Lake, who is neither good nor bad) in order to win. The bad guys must achieve numerical parity with the surviving good guys plus the Lady of the Lake in order to win. The Lady of the Lake also wins by surviving until the end of the game. Even if you have been defeated by the Death Knight, poisoned, stabbed or spirited away at the end of the game, if your team is victorious, you share the win. This is the Round Table, after all. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Characters The bad guys All appear guilty on investigation except Mordred Mordred (Arthur’s illegitimate son by Morgane le Fay) appears innocent on investigation; he can poison any player except Merlin Morgane le Fay (Britain’s most powerful sorceress, Arthur’s half sister) attempts each night to stab one other player in addition to whichever chalice is poisoned; she can kill any player including Merlin and Nimue Sir Lancelot (lover of Guinevere, whose identity he knows and who dies when he dies; he survives her death, however); can poison any player except Merlin and Nimue Elyan the White (Lancelot’s ally, a Bad Lot); can poison any player except Merlin and Nimue The Black Knight (Arthur’s bad grandson – families, eh?); can poison any player except Merlin and Nimue The good guys All appear innocent on investigation Merlin (Britain’s most powerful sorcerer) immune from night killing, except by Morgane le Fay; can be removed by The Lady of the Lake Nimue (Merlin’s apprentice sorceress) immune from night killing, except by Morgane le Fay and Mordred; can be removed by The Lady of the Lake Guinevere (Arthur’s adulterous wife) dies when Lancelot dies, does not know his identity The Knights of the Round Table Above good or evil The Lady of the Lake (gatekeeper to Avalon) attempts each night to take one player across the veil between the worlds to Avalon: can take any player including Merlin and Nimue Now, that's one host's style, other hosts have much less detail to their players. This was the game that made me decide to try it here. Something to consider, there were three cops in this game, and as an EB player, I was convinced one was insane. There weren't. It was done to balance the fact that scum can track roles much more easily. This was at least the fourth variable role game I'd played there, so the mechanic was familiar to me, and the game is quite clear in explaining itself before the game starts. Were I (or anyone) to host another game like this here, I would tell that upfront. But I wouldn't change how I set this up. Since it was the first of its kind here, I wanted to surprise and delight players with it. I just imagined all these sad vanilla townies realizing they had the opportunity to select night actions and being very happy. Who knows how they felt?
def Posted October 9, 2011 Author Posted October 9, 2011 True but I usually don't contact anyone and wait for them to contact me and set up something. I'm going to try to work on the way I play mafia games from now on. I'd like to see you more active in mafia. You were a standout player in the Coming Darkness, but then in the Baritones and this one you just seemed to show up. So, I'm sure you can be more involved in the future, since I've seen it before The thing about living to the end as a townie, it really is not a compliment. In a majority of games, the scum leave the inactive town to themselves.
Masked Builder Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 I'd like to see you more active in mafia. You were a standout player in the Coming Darkness, but then in the Baritones and this one you just seemed to show up. So, I'm sure you can be more involved in the future, since I've seen it before The thing about living to the end as a townie, it really is not a compliment. In a majority of games, the scum leave the inactive town to themselves. I didn't play in the Coming Darkness..... Yeah I do think that's true. Now to I just need another Mafia game to start that way!
def Posted October 9, 2011 Author Posted October 9, 2011 I didn't play in the Coming Darkness..... Yeah I do think that's true. Now to I just need another Mafia game to start that way! Sorry, I was thinking of Brickdoctor. So, I don't know what you're capable of I have a confession to make: I totally confuse you two together. It's the Star Wars connection/avatars, plus you both have names that have a similar length and rhythm. Throughout this game, I had to double check my PMs to both of you, and at one point I mixed up your names in thread. I don't have this problem with any other members here, I don't know what it is. Truth is, I thought I was replying to Brickdoctor above
Zepher Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 Oh! Also, Def, you make some of the best minifigures! I love them all, I forgot to compliment you! I just love looking at crowds in your games because they're always so much fun!
JimBee Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 Sorry, I was thinking of Brickdoctor. So, I don't know what you're capable of I have a confession to make: I totally confuse you two together. It's the Star Wars connection/avatars, plus you both have names that have a similar length and rhythm. Throughout this game, I had to double check my PMs to both of you, and at one point I mixed up your names in thread. I don't have this problem with any other members here, I don't know what it is. Truth is, I thought I was replying to Brickdoctor above I have the same problem. I remember getting confused with Masked and Doc in Baritones 3, so much that I almost screwed Doc in the place of Masked as the Godfather.
Brickdoctor Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 Sorry, I was thinking of Brickdoctor. So, I don't know what you're capable of I have a confession to make: I totally confuse you two together. It's the Star Wars connection/avatars, plus you both have names that have a similar length and rhythm. Throughout this game, I had to double check my PMs to both of you, and at one point I mixed up your names in thread. I don't have this problem with any other members here, I don't know what it is. Truth is, I thought I was replying to Brickdoctor above You mean you confuse my classically awesome Scout Trooper with a mere Clone Wars ARF Trooper? I think a lot of people were a lot more active in The Coming Darkness. That was easily my favorite mafia/mystery/mafystery game I've played on EB thus far, by the way. I think it was the fact that everyone was an Investigator and everyone knew it would be a team win. I know in my case, it's a sort of a subconscious change when I play in a game that's a team win as opposed to a survival win. Something I've got to work on. In probably didn't hurt the level of activity that all posting players were Town, too.
Masked Builder Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 Sorry, I was thinking of Brickdoctor. So, I don't know what you're capable of I have a confession to make: I totally confuse you two together. It's the Star Wars connection/avatars, plus you both have names that have a similar length and rhythm. Throughout this game, I had to double check my PMs to both of you, and at one point I mixed up your names in thread. I don't have this problem with any other members here, I don't know what it is. Truth is, I thought I was replying to Brickdoctor above Gotcha. But I was here first.
def Posted October 9, 2011 Author Posted October 9, 2011 I know in my case, it's a sort of a subconscious change when I play in a game that's a team win as opposed to a survival win. Something I've got to work on. In probably didn't hurt the level of activity that all posting players were Town, too. You'll note that EB is shifting to team wins. Scum as a team won this game and the last. Having survival the target of games makes for a dull game, because there's little incentive to put yourself on the line.
def Posted October 9, 2011 Author Posted October 9, 2011 Ah, and one more very important thing I forgot to say Thank you all for playing. I know I seem really pissy about stuff in places, but I appreciate having more people apply for a game than the game can host. It's great that so many people want to take part in games, and I think a good host encourages in the right direction, rather than berates 'wrong' action; positive reinforcement rather than negative reinforcement. So that's something I need to improve, and not let my feelings get in the way of hosting. I think the community here already has good games, but we need to keep working to make them the best
XimenaPaulina Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 I think it was the fact that everyone was an Investigator and everyone knew it would be a team win. I know in my case, it's a sort of a subconscious change when I play in a game that's a team win as opposed to a survival win. You'll note that EB is shifting to team wins. Scum as a team won this game and the last. Having survival the target of games makes for a dull game, because there's little incentive to put yourself on the line. I couldn't agree more with emphasizing team win over survival win, and I hope this trend continues with the next mafia games. All players actively participating and chipping in contributions on their own little way to help their team would make gameplay a whole lot enjoyable and more fun.
Zepher Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 I think everyone should play like it's team win always, even if you don't get a pat on the back at the end from the host. Who cares if you win? If you're being selfish, be selfish in a way that you play a memorable and good game for yourself. That's the real goal of a mafia, to play a game that significantly alters the game for everyone else.
Hinckley Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 I didn't say it earlier, but I guess I should be very clear: just because I felt Cornelius was ignored by def's original comments doesn't mean I didn't think Pandufus and Kiel didn't work their megablocks off. Pandufus especially was clearly totally dedicated to solving this game. I like how hard they play and the Scum was constantly frustrated by them totally figuring everything out at every turn. And as long as I'm clearing the air about things, I'll make a public apology to Rick about something stupid I did. I got more paranoid playing Scum, moreso even than when I'm Town which we all know is paranoia at ridiculous heights. In trying to play "Town Hinck" I went on with Pandufelius about missing Rick because he's always my closest ally. I was paranoid enough to think it necessary to send Rick a message post-death still playing like I was Town. It was a stupid move and it was above and beyond what was necessary. So, sorry about that Rick. It was stupid. For the first two days of the game, I had a lot of fun trying to "figure it out" with Pandufelius, even though I knew what was going on already. I oftentimes forgot I was lying, because we were having fun. That's an odd place to be when you're lying and you begin to believe it. It's part of the game and the strategy I chose for being Scum, play "Town Hinck." It is part of the game and that's what Scum is supposed to do though. Still, it's not fun when someone gets hurt. Sorry to anyone whose feelings I hurt. I really can't express enough how my earlier comments glossed over the fact that Pandufus were the people we were most afraid of. If they got that Peach Cobbler one more time, I was going to throw my computer. I also agree that if they saw a walrus kill Alopex, they probably would've gotten the rest of the Scum. I totally understand the frustration of wanting consistent information from the host. I would've expressed this more earlier, but don't want to start anything with def. Def, you brought us an awesome game and it was highly enjoyable. I appreciate how you try to help the EB Mafia Community learn and grow. And I also appreciate all the players who dedicate themselves to playing these games.
CorneliusMurdock Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 Okay, I just got back and read through all of this. A few things... First thanks for letting me play, def. Even after I died this game was driving me nuts. I was still going over my charts and rereading the day threads. I have to agree with Rufus that changing the way you showed the pistol kill really damaged their game. They knew who had the gun and it told them it was not scum that used it. Especially since Pelly had told me that all the Walrus were scum. Why did you have Pelly respond to me? I tried making him my pen pal and once he actually talked back thought that was what he was there for. Was it because I let him be so awesome at charades? To Shadows and Hinck: . Don't think you'll get away with it next time. To Pandufus: Sorry for trusting those two much more than I should have. I hope I didn't screw things up for you guys too badly.
def Posted October 10, 2011 Author Posted October 10, 2011 Okay, I just got back and read through all of this. A few things... First thanks for letting me play, def. Even after I died this game was driving me nuts. I was still going over my charts and rereading the day threads. I have to agree with Rufus that changing the way you showed the pistol kill really damaged their game. They knew who had the gun and it told them it was not scum that used it. Especially since Pelly had told me that all the Walrus were scum. Why did you have Pelly respond to me? I tried making him my pen pal and once he actually talked back thought that was what he was there for. Was it because I let him be so awesome at charades? To Shadows and Hinck: . Don't think you'll get away with it next time. To Pandufus: Sorry for trusting those two much more than I should have. I hope I didn't screw things up for you guys too badly. I just went through my messenger trying to see where I told you the walrus were all scum, and I can't see it. The two responses you got were: there isn't just one walrus. The walrus is many and They are all one. The one is many. A number of people sent 'Pelly' PMs, and I generally ignored it, but at a point I sent you a reply. It was a mixture of playfulness and being tired of people thinking Pelly was playing. It really wasn't useful information. And I really was tired of people thinking Pelly was playing. As for the final pistol kill, do you honestly think it would have been more fair to show it as a walrus, thereby concretely giving away Dragonator's allegiance? (That's a serious question for you and for anybody who thinks the game was unfair.) I think that would have been absolutely unfair to the scum. Assuming that an all-black meant it was town is not correct. I can understand that it wasn't clear as the previous nights had been, leading to that assumption, but that pic was meant to mean 'anonymous' and not town. It was an all-black figure, not an angel or something happy. Nobody asked me to clarify it at the time, and nobody brought it up in thread. If pressed, I would have clarified that it meant anonymous. I think it is a matter of frustration the weekend after the game that it is such a key point, but I hope the people in town realize that that was the best choice, and not carry that frustration with them.
CorneliusMurdock Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 I think it is a matter of frustration the weekend after the game that it is such a key point, but I hope the people in town realize that that was the best choice, and not carry that frustration with them. Sorry if I riled you def, I didn't mean it come off as saying you did anything wrong. It probably was the best choice you could have made. It was just a little bit inconsistent. Pelly's responses were taken to mean that all the walruses were different people but on the same side. I don't see how it could have meant anything else. Pelly was listed with the players and seemed to be important somehow. You can't blame some of us for thinking he was more than just window dressing. He was a great character anyway. I hope we'll see him back someday. Just don't let me play him.
XimenaPaulina Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 As for the final pistol kill, do you honestly think it would have been more fair to show it as a walrus, thereby concretely giving away Dragonator's allegiance? (That's a serious question for you and for anybody who thinks the game was unfair.) I think that would have been absolutely unfair to the scum. Assuming that an all-black meant it was town is not correct. I can understand that it wasn't clear as the previous nights had been, leading to that assumption, but that pic was meant to mean 'anonymous' and not town. It was an all-black figure, not an angel or something happy. I really think it was a double-edge sword coming on you def, you can't really please both sides, if you'd made the final pistol killer a walrus then it would've been the scum who's probably complaining now since that would've been a deal-breaker for them. But I understand why you made that choice, so I have no problems with that, just have to accept that that's the way it rolled out. Nobody asked me to clarify it at the time, and nobody brought it up in thread. If pressed, I would have clarified that it meant anonymous. Actually I did, but implicitly and did not further my accusation on Draggy. Even before that pistol kill happened I was already suspicious of Draxia for getting the Paint Thinner after JimB and iamded. Now I bump my head in the wall for not pursuing that. 2) One of the last persons who took the Paint Thinner before it was taken out invented a pistol and again gave it to her scum buddies, took a 1-day break of pistol killing for her not to look suspicious, then Boom! The scum strikes back last night. Go figure who that might be...
def Posted October 10, 2011 Author Posted October 10, 2011 Actually I did, but implicitly and did not further my accusation on Draggy. Even before that pistol kill happened I was already suspicious of Draxia for getting the Paint Thinner after JimB and iamded. Now I bump my head in the wall for not pursuing that. Sorry, I missed that. And Cornelius, I'm not riled up at all, I just want to be clear that if people are saying that the game was unfair over that point, that they are implying it would have been more fair the other way. And with Pelly, you wrote that he told you the walrus were all scum, so I needed to clarify that, and it's been clarified He was an NPC, and that was about it. No more or less than the Cross-Dressing Construction Man. In the first Bloodbrick, there was an interactive character, Henry, so on that level, I can understand the assumption. But, and I say this quite seriously, as much as possible, I don't want to repeat myself. I've hosted three games here, and all were really their own thing. If/when Bloodbrick III happens, it will also have its own thing, so don't look to other games to figure out the tricks of it.
CorneliusMurdock Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 I never said Pelly was Henry. Pelly is much better at charades.
Scouty Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 He was an NPC, and that was about it. No more or less than the Cross-Dressing Construction Man. Except this is the difference: Non-playing Characters Ivan, deli owner, widower of Florence Agent Sky, an FBI agent, widower of Darlene Steve, co-owner of Fogo de Chao, common-law-married to The Cross-Dressing Construction Man The Cross-Dressing Construction Man, co-owner of Fogo de Chao, common-law-married to Steve And then: The players: Pelly Putnam (NPC) Putnam is a mute suffering severe paranoia and displaced anger issues. Despite this, he is essentially harmless, and is given a certain amount of freedom in the hospital. Putnam checked himself in. Bell Bastage (Badboytje) - An OCD case, always obsessed with perfecting her surroundings. She developed an obsession with right angles, and frequently refuses to communicate with anyone until all furniture and decorations in the surrounding area are straightened. As such, she abhors natural settings and is deeply agoraphobic. Pandufus Randora (Pandora & Rufus) A split personality type, with both a male and female identities. Both consider themselves themselves the dominant personality, and "Pandoo" frequently argues with 'herself.' I hate to keep going on about this...but for the future, I'd suggest not to put NPCs in the Players list. Have them in a NPC list or none at all. Pelly was listed with the players and seemed to be important somehow. You can't blame some of us for thinking he was more than just window dressing. He was a great character anyway. I hope we'll see him back someday. Just don't let me play him. Except Pelly blew himself and Fraulein up to smithereens...possibly...wasn't exactly shown [/sequel!]
def Posted October 10, 2011 Author Posted October 10, 2011 I hate to keep going on about this...but for the future, I'd suggest not to put NPCs in the Players list. Have them in a NPC list or none at all. I would recommend going on about it. The more you do, the more correct your attempt to vote the NPC out will be He was a patient, listed with the other patients. He was listed as an NPC. NPC means non-playing character. I can break the term "non-playing character" up into smaller parts if they aren't clear enough for you. Sorry to go on about it, but he was an NPC And, for the record, Pelly will always exist in our hearts and minds, but I have no intention of putting him into a sequel. His main role in the game was scribe/walrus-worshipper.
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