Guns allowed in America...

[Kahgarak]

Yesternight (if that is a word) i was discussing some stuff with my brothers.Then,we started talking about how people are allowed to have guns in America.They say that it's for self defense,from other people with guns.

But,then what is the point of letting everyone have guns to protect themselves from each other when they would have less to worry about if they didn't have guns in the first place?

It's like this: (the people that allow guns will be reffered to as Bob,and the people of America will just be called people)

Bob: Hey people!

People:Yes?

Bob:Here,have these guns so you can protect yourself from other people that also got guns from me!

Your thoughts on this,ladies and gentlemen of EB?

[DoubleT]

Well

More Legal guns on street = its easy for bad guys to get weapons = more casulties

And there is alot of people that should be no where near a gun.... Some People react very desprat in presse situations, or just dont think.... So giving them a gun is not a good idea...

So you guessed Legal guns to all i dont think is a good idea..

[Kikuichimonji]

You can have a gun and drive a car at 16.

Yet you can't drink and gamble untill you're 21.

Americans sure can be weird at times.

[Hobbes]

AFAIK the gun law in the US is based on the constitution from way back when, when it actually made sense that you needed to defend yourself. What with a "brandnew country", indians, plunderes and all. Every pro arms movement uses this as an excu... sorry, argument today. And since it's in the constitution you can't change it just like that.

While I like a game of paintball ("Gotcha") now and then I am not pro guns for citizens. Provocatively you could say the state isn't powerful enough to protect its own citizens. Considering they're out and about invading other countries it doesn't really come as a surprise, though >:-)

[Brick Miner]

are we talking about hand guns (referened to legally as concealably weapons) or hunting weapons (such as rifles and the like) ??? in some states it is illegal to have a conceled weapon. however, in all states it is legal to have hunting weapons. im not sure the polices of other countries, so im not sure which we are talking about here...

as far as hand guns go...

i'll start where hobbes left off (BTW, i live in the US)... yes, things that are demed "unconsitutional" are very "un-american." just like other countries, we have our traditions, and a lot of those traditions are rooted in our forefather's constitution.

so the next logical question is... if times change, so why can't the constitution ???

well, we can look at Amendment 18 (aka prohibition) for reference. we attempted to amend the constitution saying that alcohal would be illegal... well, we had to take that one back with Amendment 21 :-D things got too out of hand. same thing would happen if you you took guns away.

its just tradition - it might sound ignorant, but its not. that is how societies work.

- BrickMiner

[phoinix]

Due to this "tradition" of yours children can find guns at home and i have heard of many accidents where kids find their dads gun and use them! We have also heard about students going mad in school and killing of teachers and students...My my that is some tradition! But thats what happens if you can find a gun so easily!!

I dont get American laws.Guns just bring more violence and violence gives bearth to violence and nothing more..

I also know about many people collecting guns at home being afraid that someone will break in and they take action...We have police for that in Europe...

And let me let you in in a little secret..Society and goverment lets you live in fear so that they can controll us..

If you want to have power over your people let them live in fear..

Tell them that you are ecxpecting a terrorist attack and you have them doing what you want..

Havent you ever watched documentaries by this man http://www.michaelmoore.com/ ?

well you should...

God dont get me started on whats wrong with the US :-|

[Hobbes]

God dont get me started on whats wrong with the US :-|

I agree with you on many things, but let's not turn this into a discussion about US politics. This is not the right place.

PS: And not everything Michael Moore says is true. He does point out certain things, true, but he's just as "media horny" as anybody...

[phoinix]

God dont get me started on whats wrong with the US :-|

I agree with you on many things, but let's not turn this into a discussion about US politics. This is not the right place.

PS: And not everything Michael Moore says is true. He does point out certain things, true, but he's just as "media horny" as anybody...

i wasnt planning on continuing on this topic in this way...

i just said my opinion..and thats it

i know this isnt the time or place...

PS:i dont know why Moore would lie..but i know a dozen reasons on why others do...and lets leave it at that ;-)

[Hobbes]

i wasnt planning on continuing on this topic in this way...

i just said my opinion..and thats it

That's ok, no one denies you that ;-)

PS:i dont know why Moore would lie..but i know a dozen reasons on why others do...

I didn't say he lies, I merely meant he twists things the way he needs 'em like everybody else. People like him are needed to sorta keep things in balance, though, or the US would be a dictatorship already ;-)

and lets leave it at that ;-)

Agreed :-)

[phoinix]

People like him are needed to sorta keep things in balance, though, or the US would be a dictatorship already ;-)

(prommised not to continue. 8-| -tries to control himself :-X -he manages-....stops there...) :-P :-P

[Darth Doggfather]

SARCASM STARTS HERE

I love America! I love the fact that I can go down to my local ghetto weapons shop, buy a fully-automatic AK-47 legally, and pop some caps! I love hunting the po-po with my .50 cal rifle (.50 cal bullets are about 6cm long, btw), and I love doing school shootings with the Uzi my adult friend bought me! When I bring my AK-47 deer hunting, there isn't any usable meat left on the remains of the carcass! Yay for military weapons legal for the general population!

SARCASM ENDS HERE

America is crazy. I don't think guns should be outlawed, but assault rifles and submachine guns should be. In America, people can buy the equivalent of a modern military weapon and do whatever they want with it. In the 1990s, U.S. President Bill Clinton signed the Assault Weapons Ban into law. This act banned the sale of guns that were fully-automatic (AKA, squeeze the trigger and the gun unleashes a constant stream of bullets), but it continued to allow semi-auto (the gun fires only as fast as you can pull the trigger) weapons to be sold. In 2004, after promising to renew it, President Bush failed to renew the Assault Weapons Ban, and it was legal again for people to buy and sell fully-automatic weapons again. Our country is so f*&^#d up right now, I'm considering moving to say, France, or Germany. I hear the weather's nice ;-). I don't know, this is just my opinion on the matter.

[Starwars4J]

America is crazy

I'm noticing a lot of very...well how should I put it, crude statements? Shouldn't the purpose of this discussion be to address issues in a civilized manner? :-|

Our country is so f*&^#d up right now, I'm considering moving to say, France, or Germany. I hear the weather's nice ;-). I don't know, this is just my opinion on the matter.

Yes, our country is messed up, but then again if you look hard enough you can find things with EVERY country that are messed up. There's a very important matter that people aren't addressing. The "bad guys", the people who will break into your house, the people who WILL assault you, the people who WILL commit crimes with guns will STILL be able to get them! Most of them do not get guns through legal means! Now I'm CERTAINTLY not a supporter of guns, but I'm afraid merely passing a law banning guns will not cut down on crime. Will it cut down on accidents? Sure it will. But it will also leave a family alone in a house with nothing but a bat against a burgler with an automatic pistol.

I just hope everyone realizes that there are points to BOTH sides of any argument.

Oh, and Darth Doggfather, just so you know, I'd take Bush over Clinton any day. He messed our country up more than Bush (people in other nations might not know why though, unless they're really into US politics). The case I'll consider moving to Italy will be if Hillary ever gets elected :-X

Guns were the worst invention human kind has made so far. Well, besides Megabloks ;-)

[phoinix]

Oh, and Darth Doggfather, just so you know, I'd take Bush over Clinton any day.

God are these the only options of this nation?

Trying so hard to be polite and civil right now.. :-X

[Jipay]

As long as I can get guns in my lego sets...

[Starwars4J]

Oh, and Darth Doggfather, just so you know, I'd take Bush over Clinton any day.

God are these the only options of this nation?

Trying so hard to be polite and civil right now.. :-X

Thankfully no, those aren't the only options. However so many comments were made about the current administration, I felt it prudent to bring up the faults of Clinton, who so many US-citizens look back upon as being some wonderful man whose administration was a golden age for Americans, and point out that it isn't true ;-)

And thanks for your effort, it makes things much more plesant

[Hobbes]

However so many comments were made about the current administration, I felt it prudent to bring up the faults of Clinton, who so many US-citizens look back upon as being some wonderful man whose administration was a golden age for Americans, and point out that it isn't true ;-)

Compared to now it was a golden age. You can't seriously compare domestic policy faults with a war... or two...

[Starwars4J]

However so many comments were made about the current administration, I felt it prudent to bring up the faults of Clinton, who so many US-citizens look back upon as being some wonderful man whose administration was a golden age for Americans, and point out that it isn't true ;-)

Compared to now it was a golden age. You can't seriously compare domestic policy faults with a war... or two...

I'm afraid that the US was already in decline at the end of the Clinton administration, but if we never got attacked, I'm sure we'd be in a much better spot than we are now! War plays pool with the economy

[phoinix]

However so many comments were made about the current administration, I felt it prudent to bring up the faults of Clinton, who so many US-citizens look back upon as being some wonderful man whose administration was a golden age for Americans, and point out that it isn't true ;-)

Compared to now it was a golden age. You can't seriously compare domestic policy faults with a war... or two...

Emm...Clinton declared war on former Yougoslavia...

So there has always been a war..or two :-/

[chewie]

In the US, in order to carry a concealed weapon, you need a CCW. In order to possess this CCW it takes about 4 months of screening through the local authorities to the FBI and you also need to have your licence that allows you to posses concealable weapons (pistols).

Rifles and shotguns are a different story. Anyone can fire a rifle or shotgun, as long as you are firing that gun with a person who has there license to fire and posses that rifle or shotgun.

High powered rifles- AK47's, M16's and any other high powered large calibre rifles are not that hard to get a hold of. But I do believe that you do require a seperate license to own and fire these weapons. As well, these weapons can't generally be concealed either.

I know a guy in the US who has pistols from .22 to 45. and ak47s to shotguns. As long as these are in possession of people who respect the laws (which obviously isnt always true) I have no problem with people having guns.

When carrying a concealed weapon (a pistol) the laws of engagement when feeling threatened are extremly strict.

for instance;

If you were in an alley and some one tried to attack you with a base ball bat, you can only fire your gun when they are within distance of hitting you. If you engage them any distance before that it is a criminal offence and you will be prosecuted to the extreme.

As well,

If you were cornered or stuck in a position, and some one kept proceeding towards you with a weapon drawn, you could pull your gun out and say, "if you don't get away I'll shoot you" and they keep proceeding towards you. You could possibly shoot them, but even then your getting in a sticky position with the law because they are not within striking distance of you.

Just my 0.02 cents

Random gun fact.

The most prefered weapon of choice by assasinators is the .22 calibre pistol. Mainly because it is extremly quite and deadly at close range. Generally in pistol of .22 calibre the barrle is not rifled, (the twists inside the barrle to stabilze the bullet) and causes the bullet to "tumble" out of the gun. When shot into some one at close range a very unstable bullet will bounce around inside that person fragmenting into hundreds of little pieces.

I am a pretty big enthusiast of guns, some people find that a little scary, but I believe as long as a gun is not used to harm anyone or anything (unless hunting for animals) it should be ok to have.

Chewie

[phoinix]

I am a pretty big enthusiast of guns, some people find that a little scary

Well Chewie you are right that is scary...i mean someone being enthusiastic about the dublo pirates is also scary but you even top that! X-D

I was in the army for 2 years..

When you are Greek or Cypriot you HAVE to go..

its not an option..

And yes i did fire a gun for practise a few times and used to carry a gun around all day and that wasnt fun for me..

I actually hated the fact that they made peacefull people to handle weapons...

i was 18 at the time...

[Darth Doggfather]

America is crazy

I'm noticing a lot of very...well how should I put it, crude statements? Shouldn't the purpose of this discussion be to address issues in a civilized manner? :-|

Our country is so f*&^#d up right now, I'm considering moving to say, France, or Germany. I hear the weather's nice ;-). I don't know, this is just my opinion on the matter.

Yes, our country is messed up, but then again if you look hard enough you can find things with EVERY country that are messed up. There's a very important matter that people aren't addressing. The "bad guys", the people who will break into your house, the people who WILL assault you, the people who WILL commit crimes with guns will STILL be able to get them! Most of them do not get guns through legal means! Now I'm CERTAINTLY not a supporter of guns, but I'm afraid merely passing a law banning guns will not cut down on crime. Will it cut down on accidents? Sure it will. But it will also leave a family alone in a house with nothing but a bat against a burgler with an automatic pistol.

I just hope everyone realizes that there are points to BOTH sides of any argument.

Oh, and Darth Doggfather, just so you know, I'd take Bush over Clinton any day. He messed our country up more than Bush (people in other nations might not know why though, unless they're really into US politics). The case I'll consider moving to Italy will be if Hillary ever gets elected :-X

Guns were the worst invention human kind has made so far. Well, besides Megabloks ;-)

After spending all of my life as an American, I believe I have the right to poke fun at our nation. I didn't mean to get overly political, I was just stating the facts, but with my slightly liberal bias. I didn't mean to offend anyone with my comments, but I was just giving my opinion. This is the country of $400-a-day pet spas, remember? ;-) We are pretty crazy when you think about it! I'm crazy and I'm proud!

[Brick Miner]

Well Chewie you are right that is scary...

chewie's response was the most intellegent reply in this thread. obviously an intellegent person when it comes to guns, their power, and their safty.

because of that, he does't seem too "scary" to me.

--------------------------------------------------

oh, and to clarify on my "traditions" idea...

1) imagine, you live in a family that you are pround of... your father was a good man, his father was a good man, and his father's father was a good man. your family has done productive things in the community. and your surname is something you are proud of... you respect your father and his lineage.

2) however, your father has a gun, his father has a gun, and his father's father had a gun.

3) why ??? because of the circumstances during the birth of the USA. the country was born out of common people fighting for their land... not drafted and given a gun and put into an army. they had to fight for their door step. and they did so by using the gun from inside their house.

4) now, for the government to come in and outlaw guns would be to say that your father and your family is wrong, or unconsitutional. but your family has always owned guns, and you have always known your family to be right and good. they are not unconsitutional !!! our goverment cannot come in and say that the families that founded it are unconsitutional. there would be riots !!!

people owning guns in their home is what founded the USA, and that eventually could be our demise (however, i strongly doubt it). its what our people have always done, it is our way of life, our tradition.

that is what i meant by "tradition."

- BrickMiner

[chewie]

Well Chewie you are right that is scary...

chewie's response was the most intellegent reply in this thread. obviously an intellegent person when it comes to guns, their power, and their safty.

because of that, he does't seem too "scary" to me.

Thank you very much Brick Miner. People who are intellegent are the ones who should handle firearms

Lets give another example.

On a .45 semi auto pistol, you have the gun, the slide and the magazine. In order to safely pass this weapon to another person the magazine must be ejected from the gun, and the slide racked back and locked.

I truly do believe in firearm safety.

So I say, if a person can operate a gun in a safe maner they should be allowed to posses it. However, even a person can safely operate a firearm and still kill some one on purpose.

[JINZONINGEN73]

Oh lordy, it's time for me to crack my knuckles.

phoinix

post Sep 18 2006, 03:48 AM

If you want to have power over your people let them live in fear..

Indeed. But when the citizenry is armed, the government loses just that much more physical power against them.

BUt some of you are probably saying "What? Egads, man, we live in the year of our lord, two-thousand and six!"

Yeah, so what? Was it THAT long ago that we had to fight the government?

And it sounds like some of you want it both ways... you want to say the US / Bush administration / conservatives are insane and warlike.

But then in the next breath, you state the citizens shouldn't be allowed to arm themselves from the government.

Look, it's not an impossible situation that the government is going to do stupid things against it's people that warrant defense.

Fluoride... it's been proven to be damaging to the young, to cause cancer and other health problems. But because a pretty penny is made from it's sale (it's a waste by-product of nuclear refinement) ...it's sold to water facilities and ENTERS OUR FOOd CHAIN! It's banned in other countries, but here it's crammed down our throats. And even better, lawmakers are pushing forward legislation to even have it become an additive to solid foods! But if it hurts people, why is it added into our diet?

Ah. For the same reason China ran state advertisements on the HEALTH BENEFITS of smoking.

...The less population you have to control, the EASIER it is to control.

Does that sound like a government you trust with your life?

And more recently, Bush went and made wiretapping without a warrant legal.

He's made it legal for police to also bust into your house at 3am with no warrant, arrest you without just cause, take whatever you have without explanation...

Does that sound like a government you trust with your life?

So let's take this away from the context of internal conflict...

China. How many people do they have per every American? Quite a bit, yes. Hell, if the Chinese constructed amazing vessels with which to transport millions of troops at a time, they could nail us on the law of averages alone.

Ah, but we have guns. The great equalizer. Far fetched? Perhaps. But stay alive in this world long enough, and you begin to realize truth is stranger than fiction, that the "impossible" occurs quite often.

Who thought 2 passenger jets were perfectly hit the World Trade center towers, destroying them both?

Not many.

Do I have any proof to back up my claim that government is a thing that often must be defended against?

Bet I do... it's called "world history".

http://www.fightthebias.com/Resources/gund...gun_control.htm

Tell them that you are ecxpecting a terrorist attack and you have them doing what you want..

It might not be right, but youi're absolutely correct. But you are only right for so long, as growing malcontent over the shady dealings and lies will undoubtedly lead to a SWEEPING political victory by the democrats at voting time. And I'm a conservative saying this. People act on fear. Noone expected the WTC disaster, at least not in that large an expression.

But we're not idiots. We are coming around. These things take time.

Havent you ever watched documentaries by this man http://www.michaelmoore.com/ ?

well you should...

Alot of us did. It was hard to avoid. The media crammed it down our throats till we were blue in the face.

PS:i dont know why Moore would lie..but i know a dozen reasons on why others do...

Because when people have an agenda they can't validate, when people don't care how bad they lie in order to make a fast buck on suckers, they do it. It's called a lack of conscience.

Well here's something YOU should read:

http://bowlingfortruth.com/

I dont get American laws.Guns just bring more violence and violence gives bearth to violence and nothing more..

People like to say there's no liberal media here, with the way the broadcasters are all afraid of Bush and decide to go with whatever slant the white house wants the people to hear, but man there sure was and there still is.

When something bad happens with guns, it's ALL OVER the news. But the everyday stories where people fought off an attacker, where a stalker was kept at bay, where a person was able to give themselves a fighting chance... those stories go largely unreported, as they always have been. The news LOVES scary, violent, fear-instilling stories of the dregs of humanity. Michael Moore at least had that right, before he went off on his own (unrelated) rant.

Guns don't make violence, fear does. And our news LOVES fear.

This is basic Jedi training 101 here.

P.S.

http://www.assaultweaponwatch.com/

We have also heard about students going mad in school and killing of teachers and students...My my that is some tradition! But thats what happens if you can find a gun so easily!!

Let's of course blame the gun, not shitty parenting, parents absent due to demanding jobs & not supervising / nurturing their children, and in the case of Columbine, the largely under-reported fact that the kids in question were hopped up on meds. Parents stopped doing their job with the advent of television, and now that's been combined with the rampant drug prescriptions parents get their kids for virtually SILLY "medical problems". Like, I was hyper-active when I was young. My mom cut my sugar intake. these days, they just bring them to a doctor and get'em medicated. Yay?

SARCASM STARTS HERE

I love America! I love the fact that I can go down to my local ghetto weapons shop, buy a fully-automatic AK-47 legally, and pop some caps! I love hunting the po-po with my .50 cal rifle (.50 cal bullets are about 6cm long, btw), and I love doing school shootings with the Uzi my adult friend bought me! When I bring my AK-47 deer hunting, there isn't any usable meat left on the remains of the carcass! Yay for military weapons legal for the general population!

That's always a good way to get a serious point across. Sarcasm.

Ok, let's talk of the "assault rifle", the scary, scary AK-47.

Dude. It's called an "assault weapon" because it LOOKS SCARY.

The power and ability are the same of other rifles sitting right next to it.

But the Clinton administration properly spun the buzz word "assault rifle", and scared enough old grannies and clueless soccer moms into going "GASP! With a name like that, it must be AWFUL!"

But in reality... it's a regular old rifle.

And you're dissing the point that yes, you may just need this to maim or kill someone. Welcome to living in the physical world.

And here, see how very destructive the AK was in overall gun crime:

http://www.clintongunban.com/FactSheets.as...&a=Fact%20Sheet

MORE TO COME. X-D

Edited September 21, 2006 by JINZONINGEN 73

[JINZONINGEN73]

I just hope everyone realizes that there are points to BOTH sides of any argument.

Oh, and Darth Doggfather, just so you know, I'd take Bush over Clinton any day. He messed our country up more than Bush (people in other nations might not know why though, unless they're really into US politics). The case I'll consider moving to Italy will be if Hillary ever gets elected

Indeed, indeed. And it would take WEEKS to make them understand.

"Accidentally" selling our nuclear secrets to the Chinese is a good example.

Ok, so BUSH SUCKS! He's a "demon". He's the antichrist! He had no right to attack Saddam!

BUSH LIED ABOUT WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!

He went to war with IRAQ! And... and.. wait. Wait a minute, hold everything! What's THIS?

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east...nton_12-16.html

:-D

But...but Bush went to war with Iraq even though he KNEW there was no real connection with Al-Qaeda and... and.. oh dear... hold up...

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Publ...03/527uwabl.asp

:-D

Bush. Clinton. ...what, so one talks funny and looks goofy, so he's "worse"?

Look at what he handed over to Bush lol.

And god forbid any of you Americans want to say that "militia" means a government agency, not people:

http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndpur.html

The forefathers, inside AND outside the amendment say otherwise:

http://www.nraila.org/issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=108

Despite any liberal interpretations, they flat-out say that it's for the individual.

Edited September 21, 2006 by JINZONINGEN 73