Discussion Should LEGO make a Military Theme?

[gratefulnat]

I know they swore many times that it was against their "core" values (I don't get it, but oh well).

I can understand people not comprehending why this is an issue, depending on your real life circumstances & environment, but I sure hope TLG continues with their current interpretation of this core value for the life span of the company.

Kids love war, so anything war-ish would be eaten up by kids.

Yeah, I loved playing war as a kid, and if these sets had been available I would have loved to have them. My parents wouldn't have alowed it.

That's what parents are for - setting boundaries and explaining why.

But if you're a kid growing up in the midst of war, you will have a different take on this.

My son's best friend (an Afghani) saw his father killed before his own eyes when he was 10, he does not think playing war is cool.

His father was shot by american soldiers, by mistake...

It happens in war, this is not meant to start any political discussion, just the facts.

I myself am an american citizen (born and raised abroad), let me tell you there have recently been many excruciatingly tough discussions in my home, but the talks have been friutfull for us all, and opened up an understanding that in the end we are all human. Good for my son, his friend, and myself.

*snip*

The best quote (not directly LEGO related, that is) I've read on these boards in a while. THANK YOU!

There are enough war toys out on the market, LEGO has no need to enter into this area.

Of course, the beauty of LEGO is do what you want with it.

If you want to build war models - go ahead, I have no qualms with that.

The models linked in the OP are awesome, no doubt about it.

[Ojik]

It wouldn't change a thing.

It would be however the worse move Lego could have done in its history.

Besides, there are a lot of Architecture sets that are discarded because they have something religious within it.

Even if the best buildings in the world are religion related, I'm ok that I would miss those sets as long as this is TLG's policy.

Sure it would. There's a difference between depicting real events and making regular army toys which you can find in every toy store. If TLG made, say, a set consisting of a German tank with a bunch of Nazis included, it would cause a lot of controversy. Many people would say they find them interesting, they support them and not the states which won. Or even worse, they would accuse them for promoting (neo)nacism. However, if they made some regular sets with basic green vehicles and soldiers, without insignias and any sign of possible historical or temporary army affiliation, it would be pretty normal and popular. They could test these waters with expanding the City police line. Last year, we had a special unit/commando, now they could make military police to approach this section of the market to see what the reactions would be. In my opinion, excluding such theme is a shame.

[AndyC]

We live in a world which already glorifies violence and warfare far more than it should. Isn't it about time we stopped doing that and celebrated the peaceful resolution of the worlds problems instead?

[SheepEater]

The replies to this topic made me want to revisit this classic from Udo Dirkschneider (former Accept singer), a German.

(before some of you panic, listen to the lyrics, it a song about children being enlisted in war)

Edited March 25, 2014 by SheepEater

[Itaria No Shintaku]

In my opinion, excluding such theme is a shame.

In my opinion, INCLUDING such theme is a shame.

By the way, luckily enough, this is just chit chatting as TLG will never produce such themes.

We live in a world which already glorifies violence and warfare far more than it should. Isn't it about time we stopped doing that and celebrated the peaceful resolution of the worlds problems instead?

This shares my thoughts.

I actually, despite how accurate it can be, prefere a duplo MOC than any tank, guns, or any modern warfare MOC.

I totally fail in understanding what can someone lead, among all that one's mind can produce, to recreate tanks or guns. Really.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Itaria No Shintaku

[Ojik]

In my opinion, INCLUDING such theme is a shame.

By the way, luckily enough, this is just chit chatting as TLG will never produce such themes.

This shares my thoughts.

I actually, despite how accurate it can be, prefere a duplo MOC than any tank, guns, or any modern warfare MOC.

I totally fail in understanding what can someone lead, among all that one's mind can produce, to recreate tanks or guns. Really.

We have each our own oppinion and that's perfectly fine. Let's respect it. However, I think you might be getting too sensitive. There's nothing wrong about basic army stuff on toy market. Kids love conflict and TLG knows that. If they switched ninjas and obscure animal warriors for soldiers, it would have no impact whatsoever. For Christ's sake, there even wouldn't be an enemy, just a line of vehicles and a few soldiers would be enough!

About your failure of understanding thoughts behind army MOCs: let people build what they like and are interested in. Using your logic, I would have to feel offended by a MOC of a white shark: how could someone build such a beast which killed so many people?

[Itaria No Shintaku]

About your failure of understanding thoughts behind army MOCs: let people build what they like and are interested in. Using your logic, I would have to feel offended by a MOC of a white shark: how could someone build such a beast which killed so many people?

Actually, this makes no sense: cars kill thousands times what sharks can. You picked up a strange example.

But not shark nor cars are intended to kill people, this is the point you seem not to get.

And again, I expressed myself properly. I said that I fail to understand, maybe someone else can understand. I do fail. My bad.

I find army/military/guns MOCs offending. Blame me. What can I do? It's not that I decide what offends me and what not.

What can I do? I simply do fail in understanding which reasons can lead someone who has lego pieces into building military stuff.

Perhaps you would have troubles in understanding what could lead someone to buy only big duplo yellow pieces and build a titanic banana.

I would praise a giant duplo banana more than the most accurate tank MOC.

That's my opinion. I don't feel like you can blame me for that.

[Dr.Cogg]

I think the biggest problem with WW2 sets, is they are WW2 set ,if they we're based more off fiction, I think people would have less of a problem with them.

[LegoPanda]

this SHOULD NEVER happen, it is against the vallues of the company, and it was far to worse what happened then to make it lego. Ok there where some Nazi's in the indiana jones sets, but the where not directly recognizable as Nazi's. i think more modern military sets arent a bad idea, but i don't think it is good, it would sell, yes, but it is still war, not like the castle sets where you had different factions, and that is all historical, the modern warmachines we are talking about, are far to close to the present, and are not really suitable for children

Edited March 25, 2014 by LegoPanda

[Super Goblin]

Finding military/army/gun MOCs offending? Now I've heard it all, people are to sensitive.

My whole point is that Lego isn't standing up to some great moral policy. They have made sets with military vehicles and figures, very realistic military vehicles in the past. They look silly and look like hypocrites sticking to this non military except when we can get away with it without any backlash policy.

[Herky]

getting back to the topic, sort of I guess, but I would love to see planes based on this, the recent 31011 aviation adventures is a WWII type plane to me, then you have 10226 Sopwith Camel, umm...anyone not realize this was a WWI fighter plane? So I disagree with the misnomer that TLG doesn't put out some military type sets. The values of TLG is to maximize profit, that is the key value of any business. Please folks, do not be so naïve in that nor the fact that most children are being taught this in elementary schools related to the world wars and even wars today. Too many people have served or are serving for kids to not have a friend or relative affected by this even today. To think otherwise is to put your head in the sand.

It's not like this period of time isn't huge in our world history and anyone would be stupid to forget what war can do...I feel this series could work but would be targeted to the AFOL audience, I am not a giant fan of some themes myself, but I just don't buy them, I am not even sure I would buy this one. The same would be said of AFOL's in any country who would not wish to buy this line if it was made but others would get the whole line.

[DPrime]

When I was kid, my dad and I used to build model air planes, tanks and ships together. While we worked on the models, my dad would tell me what it was like to hunker down during an air raid or how sick he got the first time he weathered rough seas and coastal artillery fire in a landing craft as a scared 19 year old about to see his first real combat. Those "toys" were the proverbial "teachable moment" before there was a term for such. When we finished the models, we displayed them like historical artifacts; neither I nor my sister ever "played" with them - in part because my mom drew a line in the sand and forbade it, but also because, by the time the model was done, it represented something I didn't really want to play with. I could appreciate the design and it's role in history, but seeing it in a true historical context took the play/fun out of it for me. Like any kid, I had my toy soldiers, cowboys and indians, aliens and space rangers, whatever - and that was fine - but there was always a distinct difference between a "space tank" and an actual "toy" Panzer or a medieval catapult vs a Howitzer.

I don't know that busy parents today would have the time or volition to sit down with their kids and put a realistic LEGO war machine in its proper context. Such models, sans teachable moments, might very well appeal to kids and that's probably exactly why TLG doesn't make those sorts of "toys".

Denmark had a front row seat for the rise of Nazi Germany and probably remembers, better than most, the days of the Hitler Youth when in addition to many other "social engineering experiments" (to put it far more kindly than it deserves) Nazi propagandists created entire toy lines to glorify the German war machine; from toy soldiers with recognizable insignia, to tanks and planes, to board games that teach strategy and allow kids to recreate famous German victories. At a time when kids in America were idolizing sports players and collecting baseball cards, Joseph Goebbels was printing collectable trading cards featuring prominent Nazi Party officials, soldiers who'd received the Iron Cross, and outstanding hardware like V2 rockets, Panzer tanks and various fighter planes. Confirmed kills for snipers in battles like Stalingrad were reported like batting averages to psych-up the kids learning to handle a rifle for the first time. It was an orchestrated campaign to indoctrinate youth to the idea of glorified warfare and loyalty to the state above all - and it created a lot of fanatics.

I'm sure Denmark hasn't forgotten, and personally I applaud TLG for not trying to commercialize, capitalize and trivialize a very dark time in our collective history. I have no problem with an AFOL making great MOCs of WWII hardware (and I've seen some fantastic ones) because you can't design a model like that without learning a thing or two in the process. I do have a problem with such a model showing up on the shelf at Toys R Us labelled appropriate for 7-12 yr olds.

REALLY good post, here. I think I agree with a lot of what you've said.

That said, yes, I think kids would buy them, especially in the US. And I would too!

Maybe a North American/UK exclusive line? For all the reasons Lego wouldn't do it, I'd still like to see it happen...

As for the argument that Lego is taking a hypocritical stance, here... Well, seeing as how I could pretty faithfully reproduce a scene of US soldiers massacring an American Indian village - using elements from just one theme, mind you - yeah, I'd say they're being a little hypocritical.

But that never took place in Europe, so I guess it gets a pass. ;)

Edited March 25, 2014 by DPrime

[Ojik]

Actually, this makes no sense: cars kill thousands times what sharks can. You picked up a strange example.

But not shark nor cars are intended to kill people, this is the point you seem not to get.

And again, I expressed myself properly. I said that I fail to understand, maybe someone else can understand. I do fail. My bad.

I find army/military/guns MOCs offending. Blame me. What can I do? It's not that I decide what offends me and what not.

What can I do? I simply do fail in understanding which reasons can lead someone who has lego pieces into building military stuff.

Perhaps you would have troubles in understanding what could lead someone to buy only big duplo yellow pieces and build a titanic banana.

I would praise a giant duplo banana more than the most accurate tank MOC.

That's my opinion. I don't feel like you can blame me for that.

You are getting nitpicky again. You know what? Actually, cows kills more people annually than sharks do. I thought you might use this against me and I wasn't wrong.

However, sharks DO intent to kill, so you may take the hypothetical scenario of the shark MOC as lightening the situation. But that's enough.

I find absolutely nothing wrong on making military MOCs. If you think Lego as a toy should only be used to build stuff that's apropriate for children, you're being really hypocritical. You must find offensive not only military stuff, but also zombies, those shooting brickfilms and much more, then. We are not in Cloud Cuckoo Land, little people build child friendly MOCs.

[slybynight]

Bearing in mind my previous posts here, and having read all the comments, and had a bit of a think... I thought I'd add my twopenneth.....

I had previously dismissed TLGs policy (I'd heard the founder was a pacifist) as a bit of a quirky curiosity.....(considering that for many of us, our first MOCs we something like a "brain-melting-planet-vapourizer")!!!

NOW.... I am 100% clear in my total opposition to Lego doing any modern / recent historic military. This is best left to the MOC community, which I have no problem with whatsoever (do it myself). this extends to anything not "pc". As long as care is taken to keep such material away from the innocent, searching child.

I have often thought that Lego might have stopped their MOC kit service because people were building and ordering highly innapropriate things which then arrived in boxes with a Lego logo on!

I'm very glad I read this thread as it has formalised in my own mind, one of the reasons why am such a huge fan of Lego. And I will from now on, be mindfull of the risk of the eyes of the innocent finding any innapropriate material I create. We should all remember that our "medium" is that of a toy that is very popular with children.

Edited March 25, 2014 by slybynight

[DPrime]

Bearing in mind my previous posts here, and having read all the comments, and had a bit of a think... I thought I'd add my twopenneth.....

I had previously dismissed TLGs policy (I'd heard the founder was a pacifist) as a bit of a quirky curiosity.....(considering that for many of us, our first MOCs we something like a "brain-melting-planet-vapourizer")!!!

NOW.... I am 100% clear in my total opposition to Lego doing any modern / recent historic military. This is best left to the MOC community, which I have no problem with whatsoever (do it myself). this extends to anything not "pc". As long as care is taken to keep such material away from the innocent, searching child.

I have often thought that Lego might have stopped their MOC kit service because people were building and ordering highly innapropriate things which then arrived in boxes with a Lego logo on!

I'm very glad I read this thread as it has formalised in my own mind, one of the reasons why am such a huge fan of Lego. And I will from now on, be mindfull of the risk of the eyes of the innocent finding any innapropriate material I create. We should all remember that our "medium" is that of a toy that is very popular with children.

The thing is, while I respect your opinion on this, and I respect Lego's stance on the whole thing (kind of... like I said, I do think they're being a BIT hypocritical), I really don't think any child being exposed to a toy tank or whatever is going to harm him or her whatsoever.

I will never understand this hypothesis. Pretty much every kid I knew growing up played with GI Joes. Every single one of us played violent videogames. As far as I'm aware, not one of us turned into some kind of psychopath. I really don't see what the big deal is, on a personal level anyway.

[Itaria No Shintaku]

However, sharks DO intent to kill, so you may take the hypothetical scenario of the shark MOC as lightening the situation. But that's enough.

Sharks are not built to kill.

Guns are.

I find absolutely nothing wrong on making military MOCs. If you think Lego as a toy should only be used to build stuff that's apropriate for children, you're being really hypocritical. You must find offensive not only military stuff, but also zombies, those shooting brickfilms and much more, then. We are not in Cloud Cuckoo Land, little people build child friendly MOCs.

You really do not get my point.

I'll try again to explain it.

I do fail in understanding why someone would like to build a tank or a modern warfare scenario.

I would like best to build a giant Duplo banana instead.

I am not judging what they can teach to children or not. I just simply say: I would never build such a MOC and I fail to understand which reasons lie behind such a choice.

Take this as an example: there was a very nice City layout at my last Legofest a week ago, then there was this truck carrying a tank.

Despite how accurate the tank could have been, I felt that totally unappropriate.

I feel disturbed, and again, you are no one to judge how I should feel.

The matter here is: will TLG produce modern warfare sets? No.

Will TLG produce religion related sets? No.

Do I find the first a shame? No.

Do I find the second a shame? Yes. Do I care? No, because there's plenty other themes to play with.

I also fail to understand why this topic gets revived over and over again, and we chat always about the very same thing.

I have never read the same affection for, say, Volleyball. TLG never produced a Volleyball set, never produced a Volleyball player, but yet nobody cares.

And the worse is that TLG COULD actually produce such, instead for its policy it will not produce war themes.

I hope my point is clear now.

[Herky]

at this point, this topic needs to be taken down, it is not on topic at all, Itaria, with Italy's violent history, esp during WWII I can see how you think this way, but since you did not suggest any sets or possible sets, just stating your political opinion, you really didn't need to post...these threads are not here for personal political diatribe, for any of us...the question was aimed at if TLG started making the sets would children enjoy them and what sets...this is a simple yes or no question and if you put yes, then list some sets.

Instead it has become a circus of politics and really denigrated into a sad thread overall...let's face it, TLG is a bit hypocritical on this as we know, but they own the business, they are not a public entity with stock holders, so they set the policy on what they produce to make them the most money. MOC up your military if you want, but in reality we can't discuss this or anything religious or topics like that due to all the intolerance for open opinion.

The best thing a moderator can do here is get rid of this thread at this point.

[Itaria No Shintaku]

Instead it has become a circus of politics and really denigrated into a sad thread overall...let's face it, TLG is a bit hypocritical on this as we know, but they own the business, they are not a public entity with stock holders, so they set the policy on what they produce to make them the most money.

But actually their policy prevents them to earn a lot of money from putting in a military theme that would no-doubtly sell good.

The best thing a moderator can do here is get rid of this thread at this point.

That's what I always say.

[Super Goblin]

But actually their policy prevents them to earn a lot of money from putting in a military theme that would no-doubtly sell good.

That's what I always say.

But their policy makes them hypocrites, they have and will continue to sprinkle in military builds and minifigs into their sets.

The fact is that kids and adults would love military sets. These sets wether based on a specific time period or just generic would sell better than any other range Lego has ever created.

[Ojik]

Itaria, let's make a deal and stop this. We are just trying to outsmart each other and we both know even if one succeeds, the other won't accept it. Just bear in mind I don't judge you. Feel free to being offended by army MOCs, you may have a special relation or experience to this theme I don't. I find them to be perfectly normal. However, I think you still don't get what I mean, so I'm gonna quote Super Goblin because his point is perfect:

But their policy makes them hypocrites, they have and will continue to sprinkle in military builds and minifigs into their sets.

The fact is that kids and adults would love military sets. These sets wether based on a specific time period or just generic would sell better than any other range Lego has ever created.

If they refuse to make just a basic army theme (although they surely know it would sell like hot cakes), then they should also stop producing lines based on conflict and dealing directly with it, i. e. stop putting soldiers and warfare gear in sets. Otherwise, they are hypocrites.

[Rick]

I think the different and strong opinions expressed by some in this thread explain perfectly why TLG is not making "modern" military sets.

I agree with some of you that this thread is unlikely to move past different views being expressed over and over again. At the same time, I don't think that's a reason to lock a thread. So, I'm keeping this thread open for now in case someone has something new to add to the discussion.

[slybynight]

Indeed - If I hadn't read it and considered the issues, I would still be telling others that TLG is a bit weird. Now I think its important that they don't. Yes, I'm sure they've been a bit hypocritical at times, and I'm sure there's probably someone alive who knew someone killed by a Sopwith camel, or a sword, or a crossbow. and indeed many more people who have been run over. I'm pretty sure that their stance is influenced by what happened to their country in WW2, probably more so than if they were a British company. The act of war is primarily based on destruction. The toy Lego is primarily based on construction. Kids that want to play at war, have the imagination to make bren guns from branches, Hand grenades from pine cones, and if the want to, they are free to make gas chambers from lego, the ability to bend it to their imagination is what fired us all up in the first place. When its so easy to do, and that is its USP, why be anything other than idealist in presenting kits of a tiny fraction of all world objects.

It has always baffled me why some killing machines appear to be so aesthetically pleasing - probably a lot to do with aero/hydro dynamics / imposing powerful outlines.

On religious buildings, that really is a bit of a travesty - some are soooo beautiful - but what can they do? - seems such a shame - kids could lean so much more about architecture/history/building techniques - I mean "Bricks"! FFS!(am I allowed to say that)? - it lends itself to educating about building techniques. I would like to see Lego including some educational material with their instructions - eg, "This ferrari F1 car was the last to have the engine in the front, because it was found that when the weight (the engine) was not all over the front wheels the car could steer better." or "the conrinthians stopped using this type of column because....."

Edited March 26, 2014 by slybynight

[AndyC]

I will never understand this hypothesis. Pretty much every kid I knew growing up played with GI Joes. Every single one of us played violent videogames. As far as I'm aware, not one of us turned into some kind of psychopath. I really don't see what the big deal is, on a personal level anyway.

To be clear, I don't think playing with "war" toys makes people violent. However I also don't believe there is any benefit from encouraging children to think of war as normal or in any way a good thing. TLG have only a limited number of resources in any one year and I believe they're better spent focusing on positive roles models and play situations instead. It's not as if there is a shortage of alternatives.

[Rufus]

The original poster was asking specifically about the appeal of hypothetical World War 2 sets to kids, but the conversation has generalised towards the recurring discussion of the idea of LEGO Military sets. As such, locking it will just cause the same discussion to appear again in another form.

I will however merge it into the existing Military discussion, where you can see these arguments rehashed repeatedly.

[DPrime]

However I also don't believe there is any benefit from encouraging children to think of war as normal or in any way a good thing.

What about Star Wars?

Make believe, sure... But that might actually do more harm in this regard than the context of historical events. I'm no childhood psychologist or anything, but I'm not pulling this out of my - ahem - either. Lt Col Dave Grossman questions the idea of Luke Skywalker - whom he describes as a sociopath! - as a role model in his book, On Killing. As much as I love SW, his analysis is tough to refute.

I must have missed the wish list aspect of this thread, though. I for one would love an M4 Sherman and a bunch of WWII fighters... A B-17 would be awesome, too.

JFK's PT-109 torpedo boat would be sweet, too.