MetroiD Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I admit I'm also curious as to what Emi will have to say in this particular situation, considering just how outspoken she's been so far. I can honestly say that the whole "I don't trust any one of you" thing just does not sit right with me. If a week has not been enough for you to at least get a basic idea on who you can trust, then perhaps there is a reason why you'd rather not try and put your trust in random people. Daisuke's reasoning, however, also confuses me a lot. "I know I'm Yakuza and yeah, someone else has spoken out as well, so they might also not be scum" is definitely not the kind of contribution we're looking for. And if you really need a list of names with which to work (considering how you've based your statements on said list on two of the three occasions you've spoken up so far), you could at least have tried to substantiate that with proper observations. Sorry Elvis, but I'd like to hear more from you, so I'll Vote: Daisuke (K-nut)
Professor Flitwick Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Vote: Noriko (Eskallon). She's been so quite, and unhelpful. Yesterday we were told she would be able to speak up more, but I haven't seen any evidence of it. If anything, this might spur her into speaking more than once.
badboytje88 Posted March 22, 2012 Author Posted March 22, 2012 Wow, votes really seem to be flying everywhere today! Lizzy (Capt. Redblade): 2 Votes Brickdoctor, Rumble Strike, Emi (Brickdoctor): 1 Vote Def Daisuke (K-nut): 1 Vote MetroiD Norio (Eskallon): 1 Vote Professor Flitwick
Brickdoctor Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I'd like to see a solid, documented defense to not make her the candidate today. Unfortunately, in my experience, such brusqueness, right from the start (and not as a reaction to prickish behavior from someone) is often scum. What are you actually wanting to hear? I've made my defense. I've addressed your accusations. I've been vocal in public, cautious in private, open with my suspicious, and diligent about keeping what little I've been able to do since Day 1 out in the open where other true Townies can keep me accountable. If you think those are reasons to lynch me, I can't think of anything I could say to change your mind.
Professor Flitwick Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Norio (Eskallon): 1 Vote Professor Flitwick *sniff* Grandfather, I voted for Noriko, not Norio.
MetroiD Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 If you think those are reasons to lynch me, I can't think of anything I could say to change your mind. In other words - if that's what you think, I can't really convince you otherwise. Where have we heard that before. We've all been cautious in private. However, I have been in touch with quite a few people so far - with some of those, any cooperation has been nonexistent (as was this case with my wife), with others my work has been extremely limited, at other points there've been talks that were a bit heated, and yet there have been other discussions which have been very fruitful. And yes, I too have been cautious at all times trying to accomplish what little I can do to help the Family. Trying to work with other true Townies, as you put it, requires a certain amount of risk, but if at some point you find yourself only having spoken out in the Day discussions, I wouldn't consider it too strange that you've suddenly become a target for suspicion. Based on your voting history and the fact that you've really voiced your suspicions in a loud and clear manner throughout this ordeal, I can't say that you look too scummy to me. Weirder things have happened though...
Capt. Redblade Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I think it's unlikely that there are any more Mutineers left, so the Saburo-kill was probably a Yakuza-engineered effort or the Secret Agents got lucky and have acquired a kill action. Since there's been some speculation that they can convert people, my guess is that they managed to convert the vigilante, if he/she is still around. As for the janitor thing, I'm not sure. A one-shot, perhaps? As for conversions, I'm not counting on it. There has been a scum night kill every night except night two. Do you really think the vig was converted? Is that because there were two kills? I based my hypothesis on another, yours. Exhibit A: My hypothesis is this: We have taken out the Mutineer's killer, likely it had been Chieko, since she had claimed to be blocked night two and there was no Yakuza death that night. You said yourself that we have most likely rid ourselves of the Mutineers' killer, and the evidence seems to support that. But, since there was a kill last night, the vigilante is obviously still out there. The disappearance of both ninja (White and Black) and the appearance of the Red implies that something has changed in the grand scheme of things. I don't know that the Mutineers' kill role could have shifted to the surviving Mutineer, and I have heard suggestions that the Agents could have acquired a kill role. The most reasonable way that could happen is, in my opinion, that they pinpointed who the vig was, and converted him/her. (Or they got really lucky.) Show me where in the scriptures it says that people with power roles like that can't be converted. And by the way, what about my hypothesizing makes me scummy? I think I'm allowed to hypothesize just as much as the next talking lizard.
Brickdoctor Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 We've all been cautious in private. However, I have been in touch with quite a few people so far - with some of those, any cooperation has been nonexistent (as was this case with my wife), with others my work has been extremely limited, at other points there've been talks that were a bit heated, and yet there have been other discussions which have been very fruitful. And yes, I too have been cautious at all times trying to accomplish what little I can do to help the Family. Trying to work with other true Townies, as you put it, requires a certain amount of risk, but if at some point you find yourself only having spoken out in the Day discussions, I wouldn't consider it too strange that you've suddenly become a target for suspicion. Fair point. As I've said before, however, I've had no information throughout this situation that really needed to be disclosed in private. Suspicions for me have been at the extremes; I'm either convinced enough that someone's Scum to accuse them publicly or only have a gut feeling that's better mentioned in public than discussed in private. The only information I have is my suspicions, and I think that voicing them in public has the added benefit of everyone's knowing who has tried to convince me that they were right or wrong. You said yourself that we have most likely rid ourselves of the Mutineers' killer, and the evidence seems to support that. But, since there was a kill last night, the vigilante is obviously still out there. The disappearance of both ninja (White and Black) and the appearance of the Red implies that something has changed in the grand scheme of things. I don't know that the Mutineers' kill role could have shifted to the surviving Mutineer, and I have heard suggestions that the Agents could have acquired a kill role. The most reasonable way that could happen is, in my opinion, that they pinpointed who the vig was, and converted him/her. (Or they got really lucky.) Show me where in the scriptures it says that people with power roles like that can't be converted. How do you know that? You don't know that the vig made the kill. We already know that there are three factions, and three killers makes perfect sense. That we've never seen more than two kill on the same Night makes less sense and points more towards a one-shot, but it is not at all obvious that the vig is still out there. And if he is, he could very well have been blocked or (less likely) his target protected.
Rick Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 But, since there was a kill last night, the vigilante is obviously still out there. What makes you think it's 'obviously' the vigilante? Show me where in the scriptures it says that people with power roles like that can't be converted. Allowing power roles to be converted tends to mess with the balance too much, but given what we've seen in the past couple of days, I wouldn't completely rule out that explanation. I think it's more likely however that something changed regarding one - or both - of the scum team's night kill. Either we killed the original Mutineer killer and the red ninja is their successor or the scum teams have joined forces and this represents their new 'combined' night kill.
Capt. Redblade Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Allowing power roles to be converted tends to mess with the balance too much, but given what we've seen in the past couple of days, I wouldn't completely rule out that explanation. I think it's more likely however that something changed regarding one - or both - of the scum team's night kill. Either we killed the original Mutineer killer and the red ninja is their successor or the scum teams have joined forces and this represents their new 'combined' night kill. Ah, I never considered that. Do you see, Norio? This is how it's supposed to go. Somebody says something, other people shoot it down and propose alternate theories, and the hypotheses continue. Nothing scummy about the ancient ways.
MetroiD Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Somebody says something, other people shoot it down and propose alternate theories, and the hypotheses continue. The question is, in what way do all these hypotheses regarding the red ninja help us determine whether you, or other Family members, for that matter, are scum or not... If you ask me, that's all a nice attempt by someone to pull the wool over our eyes.
def Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 What are you actually wanting to hear? I've made my defense. I've addressed your accusations. I've been vocal in public, cautious in private, open with my suspicious, and diligent about keeping what little I've been able to do since Day 1 out in the open where other true Townies can keep me accountable. If you think those are reasons to lynch me, I can't think of anything I could say to change your mind. I would like you to document your townie actions, collect them for us in an easy to read fashion. This is precisely the reason I asked you to do so I based my hypothesis on another, yours. Exhibit A: You said yourself that we have most likely rid ourselves of the Mutineers' killer, and the evidence seems to support that. But, since there was a kill last night, the vigilante is obviously still out there. The disappearance of both ninja (White and Black) and the appearance of the Red implies that something has changed in the grand scheme of things. I don't know that the Mutineers' kill role could have shifted to the surviving Mutineer, and I have heard suggestions that the Agents could have acquired a kill role. The most reasonable way that could happen is, in my opinion, that they pinpointed who the vig was, and converted him/her. (Or they got really lucky.) Show me where in the scriptures it says that people with power roles like that can't be converted. And by the way, what about my hypothesizing makes me scummy? I think I'm allowed to hypothesize just as much as the next talking lizard. The reason it's scummy is because it's so implausible. Ah, I never considered that. Do you see, Norio? This is how it's supposed to go. Somebody says something, other people shoot it down and propose alternate theories, and the hypotheses continue. Nothing scummy about the ancient ways. I had already proposed that just before you swept in with your hypothesis, but you would have had to be paying attention to notice that And thanks for telling me what I'm supposed to do; I realize that I've been a useless bump on a log up until this point. I'll try to contribute at Lizzy-quality levels from now on Just to save us from future hypotheses: unvote: Emi Vote: Lizzy (Redblade)
Brickdoctor Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I would like you to document your townie actions, collect them for us in an easy to read fashion. This is precisely the reason I asked you to do so So you complain that other people aren't paying attention and don't know things, yet you want me to collect all my Townie actions in one place for you to read? And in what way could documenting my Townie actions possibly help? I'm a Townie, therefore, everything I do is an action performed by a Townie, therefore, everything I do is a Townie action.
MetroiD Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 ...everything I do is a Townie action. ...either that, or .Sorry, just couldn't resist. And don't ask me how Scottish psychedelic cultural musical influence has reached all the way to Japan. Some things do really work wonders for you, but I guess Hanako would know more about that .
Capt. Redblade Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 The reason it's scummy is because it's so implausible. Just to save us from future hypotheses: unvote: Emi Vote: Lizzy (Redblade) Since when it is a crime to propose a theory? Yeah, it's a long shot, but there have been a lot of long shots over the past week, and I haven't seen them prosecuted.
def Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 So you complain that other people aren't paying attention and don't know things, yet you want me to collect all my Townie actions in one place for you to read? And in what way could documenting my Townie actions possibly help? I'm a Townie, therefore, everything I do is an action performed by a Townie, therefore, everything I do is a Townie action. Yup, I have been sleeping this whole time, so I need you to compile your defense for me. The investigator is choosing not to check you for whatever reason. I'm sorry for asking you to -gasp!- play the game! It's pretty unfair of me to do Your logic is quaint, that everything you do is townie, but of course not a single person here will consider it a valid one. Frankly, this hostility is unbecoming Since when it is a crime to propose a theory? Yeah, it's a long shot, but there have been a lot of long shots over the past week, and I haven't seen them prosecuted. It's in no way a crime; it's a scum tell. That's how Hiroki gave himself away, with "helpful" theories that were in no way helpful. I repeat, it's not a crime to propose theories. Propose away!
Capt. Redblade Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Well, since we are free to vote, I think I'll take the opportunity to... Vote: Shiro (Alopex) Since I first raised my suspicions about him - gosh, what was it? Two days ago? - he has made no effort to answer the accusations, despite the fact that he made two posts on Day 6 during which point he easily could have, and my efforts to get to know him in private have been, shall we say, less than fruitful? I understand he may not have been online awake much recently, but that still demonstrates a certain level of flat-out disregard pour moi. I also doubt that Shiro has not heard my accusations, as I have spoken them loudly and frequently, and even the most frequently unconscious members of our family surely know my position by now. If anybody else knows why I should not vote for Shiro, please speak up, as he seems incapable of such an action.
Brickdoctor Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Yup, I have been sleeping this whole time, so I need you to compile your defense for me. The investigator is choosing not to check you for whatever reason. I'm sorry for asking you to -gasp!- play the game! It's pretty unfair of me to do So I have to "play the game" by compiling all my "Townie actions" into an easy-to-read document, while my accuser sits back and refuses to - by your logic - "play the game" by doing his own research?If you want me to defend my behavior, I've already done that. If you want everything I've done laid out for you, well, you could at least know your facts before you accuse me.
def Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 So I have to "play the game" by compiling all my "Townie actions" into an easy-to-read document, while my accuser sits back and refuses to - by your logic - "play the game" by doing his own research? If you want me to defend my behavior, I've already done that. If you want everything I've done laid out for you, well, you could at least know your facts before you accuse me. Thanks for that helpful link! That clears you! My research so far is that you've been vocal, but not helpful. Every post today is evidence of that. Which is a good enough reason to take you out. Plus your total inability to muster up a defense, and seeming positively bitter at being asked to, further shows an unhelpful attitude. Seriously, it's your job to defend yourself. If you want to throw accusations at me, I can easily defend my own actions. It's not asking too much of anyone, at least not on the seventh day. Again, it's merely asking you to play the game you signed up for.
Brickdoctor Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 My research so far is that you've been vocal, but not helpful. Every post today is evidence of that. Which is a good enough reason to take you out. Plus your total inability to muster up a defense, and seeming positively bitter at being asked to, further shows an unhelpful attitude. Seriously, it's your job to defend yourself. If you want to throw accusations at me, I can easily defend my own actions. It's not asking too much of anyone, at least not on the seventh day. Again, it's merely asking you to play the game you signed up for. I presented my defense already. Documenting all my "Townie actions" isn't a defense. Anyone can go back and list all my actions. In fact, I've done more than that. I've defended my behavior itself.
badboytje88 Posted March 22, 2012 Author Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Lizzy (Capt. Redblade): 3 Votes Brickdoctor, Rumble Strike, Def Daisuke (K-nut): 1 Vote MetroiD Noriko (Eskallon): 1 Vote Professor Flitwick Shiro (Alopex): 1 Vote Capt. Redblade Edited March 22, 2012 by badboytje88
def Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I presented my defense already. Documenting all my "Townie actions" isn't a defense. Anyone can go back and list all my actions. In fact, I've done more than that. I've defended my behavior itself. Oh! You said you were townie. Why didn't you just say so earlier Hmm. It sounds like the same defense as all the scum we convicted. Thanks for being helpful and playing I'm so torn, between Emi's utter lack of interest in defending herself, and Lizzy's clear lack of hypothesizing skills.... But, frankly, I'm far too unimpressed with Emi's definition of "town action." I'm going to switch it back, and hopefully some others see what a lack of interest or attempt to make a case for herself Emi's done. Unvote: Lizzy Vote: Emi (Brickdoctor)
Brickdoctor Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Oh! You said you were townie. Why didn't you just say so earlier Hmm. It sounds like the same defense as all the scum we convicted. Thanks for being helpful and playing Nice job ignoring the rest of my defense of my behavior. Oh, wait, that's right. You need it all laid out in front of you: I've been vocal in public, cautious in private, open with my suspicious, and diligent about keeping what little I've been able to do since Day 1 out in the open where other true Townies can keep me accountable. If you think those are reasons to lynch me, I can't think of anything I could say to change your mind. I see four defenses of my behavior, only one of which has a portion which could be interpreted of me just coming out and saying, "I'm a Townie!". You've avoided the rest of the statement for the entire Day.
def Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Nice job ignoring the rest of my defense of my behavior. Oh, wait, that's right. You need it all laid out in front of you: I see four defenses of my behavior, only one of which has a portion which could be interpreted of me just coming out and saying, "I'm a Townie!". You've avoided the rest of the statement for the entire Day. Show, don't tell.
MetroiD Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 Emi, do not forget that this is not a personal feud. At this stage there are people who have for one reason or another been "cleared" and obviously, despite your efforts to do things the (seemingly) "Townie" way and do your talking in public, for the time being it looks as though there is no direct confirmation on whether you are a Townie or not. What I'm trying to say is that pretty much all of the people who are being voted against today would need to come up with tangible proof of their efforts, so you shouldn't be angry at Norio for trying to push you as he is. Don't get me wrong, I'm not just saying this in order to jump on the bandwagon. Obviously, Norio and I have had our differences and we may not have seen eye to eye. He has, however, proven his credentials and helped this Family a great deal. So far, for the last few days, pretty much the only thing you've done is fuel a personal agenda against Lizzy. Obviously, at this point in time there is no way of telling whether that "proves" your allegiance in any way, so once again - instead of being angry and turning this into a war of words with Norio, I'd suggest you try and convince us all that you're a valuable and loyal member of the Family. For the time being, my vote stands where it is. I have not seen Daisuke contribute at all throughout this terrible week, and what's more important, I do believe that a large part of it is consistent with typical scummy behaviour. That can only be substantiated by his voting history (or rather, lack thereof). I know that these last few days in the Dojo have been rough on him, but right now I'm growing increasingly suspicious.
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