MetroiD Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 I seem to have stirred up some confusion, which was not my intention. Sorry for any misunderstanding. I was still under the impression that survivors + players whose win condition has been fulfilled actually win the game; when Hinckley obviously noted earlier on that we'd moved on from that status quo. My fault for not taking on board what he said. Of course, I fully agree that it's the team effort that counts, and that having team wins as opposed to surviver / conditional wins reflect that. P.S.: And ultimately, I agree 100% with what Rick says. What we're all in it for is to have fun, so that's what matters first and foremost.
Rumble Strike Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 I agree that it would be better for everyone if the team win rather than just survivors. There were a few Townies (and I do include myself in this) that were very quiet overall and have survived because we weren't seen as a threat. Survival is not the aim of the game.
TheBoyWonder Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 I enjoyed the game, but felt it was quite bias to the Town. They had large amounts of night actions, whereas the Scum factions had 1 kill from the start and the other kill was hard to unlock. Gotham Mafia may of had every player with actions, but the Scum could still have a realistic chance at winning.
fhomess Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) Here's my role PM: Setsuku – Played by Fhomess Setsuku is a leading martial arts specialist. She practices and teaches: Judo, Aikido, Jujutsu, Karate, Kendo, Nunjitsu and Taekwondo. First thing she teachers her students is to never ever use martial arts outside of the ring. You are the Scum Roleblocker. You can choose one player per night to block from performing his or her Night Action. Your team needs to outnumber the Town to win this game. I don't think the one scum kill between the two teams was unbalanced. There were 9 original scum members, so that's a reasonable rate. However, when you divide up the scum into multiple teams, you severely weaken the scum's strengths. To add on top of that the burden of having the agents needing to take out a scum player to join the teams is ok, but you also have to consider who quickly the agents were likely to find the scum godfather in relation to how many townies can be connected in the same time frame. I think the agents were pretty lucky that they found scuba so fast. Edited April 1, 2012 by fhomess
Eskallon Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 Thanks for hosting the game Badboy, it was enjoyable and a very original theme, while it had its problems, we should all still remember the good things. Especially that gorgeous Dragon statue which we were to be fed into. My usefulness in this game was nil, and I hated it. It started well and I had lots of time, however at the beginning of this month I came into some trouble which left me with a lot of organising and consolidating to do. When that ended and I said in the day thread that I had some more time, I just wasn't in it anymore. I had become useless. I hadn't done anything for half the game and I had no clue as a vanilla townie for what to do. It was like having to start a brand new game 6 days in. I had considered giving up my place in the game on day 2 or 3 but I knew that a vanilla townie serving no huge purpose was not going to be replaced, and therefore me being still in the game would at least give the town one more person over the scum/agents. So I would like to apologise to all of you for having to basically give up. I don't like that I did it and I have decided to take another little break from these games, whether that be for one game or three. I hope that next time I sign up, I will be able to cope and play to my best. Every Town player has won, I think. It should be a team win after all... I think it's EB mafia 'policy' that we now have team wins. But is it really such a big deal? I'd rather play a good town game when the scum eventually win than a lousy town game but still win in the end. I must disagree with this, part of EB before was that there was pride in being a winner. There was a smaller amount of winners and gave people more motivation to win, this didn't discourage players, but encouraged them to work to the best of their ability. Well it certainly did for me. I wouldn't want to win if I didn't survive because for me it doesn't show any real effort to survive, which is what these games are for, surviving. I mean, say that you were a bomb and wanted to give yourself up to perhaps kill a scummy. With my proposed win condition (of surviving) you would have to go through every other theory before doing so, you would have to think about it and try not to, rather than just let yourself go and brush it as, "I'll win anyway".
Rick Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 I must disagree with this, part of EB before was that there was pride in being a winner. There was a smaller amount of winners and gave people more motivation to win, this didn't discourage players, but encouraged them to work to the best of their ability. Well it certainly did for me. I wouldn't want to win if I didn't survive because for me it doesn't show any real effort to survive, which is what these games are for, surviving. I mean, say that you were a bomb and wanted to give yourself up to perhaps kill a scummy. With my proposed win condition (of surviving) you would have to go through every other theory before doing so, you would have to think about it and try not to, rather than just let yourself go and brush it as, "I'll win anyway". To me, this shows you don't really understand what a mafia game is about. The people who play well are usually the ones that get targeted at night by the scum and are blocked, killed, or framed. The 'lazy townies' are the ones who end up surviving, because the scum have no incentive to get them out of the game, as they typically look scummy because they could be flying under the radar and cause confusion among the town. This of course does not mean the system of winning when your side wins is perfect. But it at least doesn't penalise people for actually playing the game. As I said before, I don't really care about winning per se, and I'm glad it's been de-emphasised lately. The comments by the host on individual player's performance at the end of most recent games mean a lot more to me.
Hinckley Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 To me, this shows you don't really understand what a mafia game is about. The people who play well are usually the ones that get targeted at night by the scum and are blocked, killed, or framed. The 'lazy townies' are the ones who end up surviving, because the scum have no incentive to get them out of the game, as they typically look scummy because they could be flying under the radar and cause confusion among the town. Ditto.
Cecilie Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 I don't really care if I'm declared a winner or not. To me, if my team wins, and I feel like I've done my best to help out, I'll feel like a winner anyway. To me it's about helping my team to win, not about surviving. Of course I want to stay in the game as long as possible, so I'll try to survive, but whatever benefits my team the most comes first. In this game I could either use my role to hide behind known townies I would believe not to get night killed, and thus trying to survive, or I could use my role to help confirm townies and sniff out scum, and thus risk dying early, which is what I did.
Hinckley Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 I don't really care if I'm declared a winner or not. To me, if my team wins, and I feel like I've done my best to help out, I'll feel like a winner anyway. To me it's about helping my team to win, not about surviving. Of course I want to stay in the game as long as possible, so I'll try to survive, but whatever benefits my team the most comes first. In this game I could either use my role to hide behind known townies I would believe not to get night killed, and thus trying to survive, or I could use my role to help confirm townies and sniff out scum, and thus risk dying early, which is what I did. Which is precisely why we shifted to rewarding the Team win, not the individual. People would just sit back and try to survive to the detriment of the Town and just become dead weight and ride the coat-tails of the people actually working. Not that Cecilie would perform different either way. You're a true team player with good sportsmanship and I like playing with you! One of these days, we'll be lying to each other though. That's the weird part of these games. You create some pretty strong friendships and then one day "Bam!" you open up your PM and you have a Scum role and you have to start lying to people you love.
Cecilie Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 Not that Cecilie would perform different either way. You're a true team player with good sportsmanship and I like playing with you! One of these days, we'll be lying to each other though. That's the weird part of these games. You create some pretty strong friendships and then one day "Bam!" you open up your PM and you have a Scum role and you have to start lying to people you love. Thanks Hinck . I have yet to experience having to lie to people in these games, but I guess I'll have to learn that someday too....
def Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 At that point we already knew your three ways of, well, not actually investigating, but at least confirming people to be Town. Okay, Cecilie wasn't that strong, as her role would be lost upon hiding behind scum, but at least she couldn't be killed properly at night. And I thought Zakura's action would have been passed on after his death? So, even if he would have tried to recruit scum, as long as there's another Mason member left the Town wouldn't have lost anything anyway, would they? And you still had a role cop, whose resukt gave hints about the alignment as well. So you were capable of confirming four Townies per night. I do think that's pretty much overkill, but I may be a bit biased, too. Zakura told me the masonry would be passed along, but it wasn't, and seeing him post his role, it didn't say it there either JimB's role wasn't a role cop, it was a Follower, but I'm still a little unclear as to how that role works, and the difference between it and a role cop. So, as much as we were potentially capable of clearing four a night, that wasn't going to happen. Zakura recruited Pie to be safe. I had already investigated him. And each scum team had a role cop, so they could target much more efficiently, and yes, I was blocked twice in by the scum, and marked for death. Luckily I was protected at that point. I think the investigative abilities were matched and balanced here. My usefulness in this game was nil...So I would like to apologise to all of you for having to basically give up.... I wouldn't want to win if I didn't survive because for me it doesn't show any real effort to survive, which is what these games are for, surviving. You survived this game and "won". Did that show effort on your part? Basically, you slept your way to victory.
JimBee Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 JimB's role wasn't a role cop, it was a Follower, but I'm still a little unclear as to how that role works, and the difference between it and a role cop. I was able to find out players' actions, but only on nights that they used them. The distinction between this and a role cop, I believe, is that a role cop can find out the role of someone regardless of whether they use it or not.
Fred Daniel Yam Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 Again, I deeply apologise to the Rufus, Peanuts and Nightshroud after I screwed you guys over. Sorry about that, won't happen again.
Peanuts Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 Again, I deeply apologise to the Rufus, Peanuts and Nightshroud after I screwed you guys over. Sorry about that, won't happen again. Nevermind, I won't hold a grudge against you. After all, it was just a game, and I still enjoyed it. But, yeah, try to be a bit more co-operative next time You were giving us quite a headache with your performance
Hinckley Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 Again, I deeply apologise to the Rufus, Peanuts and Nightshroud after I screwed you guys over. Sorry about that, won't happen again. I would think it's safe to assume that if a host chooses you for their game in the future, they would never choose you and zakura to play at the same time. Actions have consequences, how about that?
Rick Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 I was able to find out players' actions, but only on nights that they used them. The distinction between this and a role cop, I believe, is that a role cop can find out the role of someone regardless of whether they use it or not. Yes, that's the difference, see here under 'Use and Balance'.
Eskallon Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 You survived this game and "won". Did that show effort on your part? Basically, you slept your way to victory. And if I had died I still would have 'won'. That shows no effort either (Not that I really care that much for winning, its more about enjoying the game) . I just think that the system worked fine before we introduced team wins.
Brickdoctor Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 And if I had died I still would have 'won'. That shows no effort either (Not that I really care that much for winning, its more about enjoying the game) . I just think that the system worked fine before we introduced team wins. In a team win, yes, the sheep and inactive players will still win, but a lot of them are going to win anyways in a survival win because they don't get killed because they're not a threat. If there's almost inevitably going to be some winners who didn't work for the win, you might as well give those that did work the win at the same time.
Rick Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 And if I had died I still would have 'won'. That shows no effort either (Not that I really care that much for winning, its more about enjoying the game) . I just think that the system worked fine before we introduced team wins. It did not work fine before, as people had an incentive to avoid being killed and they could do that by not taking risks. They could easily hurt their team to ensure their own survival. And again, no one says team wins are a perfect system, but if you take a minute to think about it, you at least will understand it's better. Perhaps I should spell it out for you even more clearly. Survivors win: - Many survivors are 'lazy' and still win = bad - The most active players who helped win it are probably killed off early and 'lose' = bad - There are good players on other teams that still 'lose' = bad Team win: - Many on the the winning team are 'lazy' and still win = bad - The most active players who helped win the game for their team are probably killed off early but still win with the team = good - There are good players on other teams that still 'lose' = bad By that, 'team win' is less bad than 'survivors win'. I hope it's clear now. And I agree with you that it's not about winning, but people are focusing on it here, including you. Moreover, you seem to want to defend the 'old' system.
badboytje88 Posted April 2, 2012 Author Posted April 2, 2012 What is the standard on this site? Does a team win or do the survivors win? I can’t seem to find any decisive information about this. I decided to let the survivors win because they completed their win condition. However winning or losing says nothing about how you played the game or about how much you contributed to it. If you ask me the most ideal grading system is the one used for the mafia schools where you get a pass of a fail.
Rick Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 What is the standard on this site? Does a team win or do the survivors win? I can’t seem to find any decisive information about this. It is based on team wins ever since we got rid of the "Survivors list". Not that it really matters, because - as far as I know - no list of 'wins' is kept anymore. I decided to let the survivors win because they completed their win condition. However winning or losing says nothing about how you played the game or about how much you contributed to it. That's not true, Town - as a whole - achieved their win condition: You are a Vanilla Townie and have no Night Action what so ever. You win when all the Scum is eliminated. If you ask me the most ideal grading system is the one used for the mafia schools where you get a pass of a fail. I agree, but in the 'Advanced Games' it's more about the host feedback on individual players.
Peanuts Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) I agree, but in the 'Advanced Games' it's more about the host feedback on individual players. Yes, I myself don't care much about winning or losing, what counts for me is if I had a good time playing the game, if I think I played well and if others think I played well. That's why I'm more interested in the host's feedback *hint, hint * (as well as comments of other players) than anything else. Of course, if the team wins, it propably adds to my enjoyment, but winning because the other team screwed up or even though I did a horrible job isn't very entertaining either. Of course, I never survive. I don't even know how it feels to still be alive at the end of a game. Edited April 2, 2012 by Peanuts
Hinckley Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 And if I had died I still would have 'won'. That shows no effort either (Not that I really care that much for winning, its more about enjoying the game) . I just think that the system worked fine before we introduced team wins. But why would they kill you if you weren't a threat? What is the standard on this site? Does a team win or do the survivors win? I can’t seem to find any decisive information about this. Isn't the fact that we've repeatedly said in this thread that "team win is the standard" decisive enough for you? Don't you play the games? Haven't you noticed the shift?
def Posted April 3, 2012 Posted April 3, 2012 Badboy, will you be doing player feedback? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this motley crew
WhiteFang Posted April 3, 2012 Posted April 3, 2012 I just got back and I am glad to know that my fellow townies had won! I must admit that my defence is not as solid as before and having to face the lynch in broad daylight does annoys me a little, but hey I did my best to help you guys out by getting rid of one! So, instead of being an useless irrational vengeful townie, I did it in style. Here is my character profile, more thoughts to add if I can think of any. Oh, thank you badboytje88 for hosting this game and having me to play in it as well. WhiteFangCherry Blossom is destined to be a star. At the age of 18 she was recruited by Gwen Stefani to become part of her Harajuku girls. After touring with her for several years Gwen decided to take a break from making music and have multiple babies. So Cherry Blossom returned home to her family but she stayed true to her Harajuku style. You are the Town Vengeful. If you happen to be lynched, you are awarded with the ability to kill a player. You may only choose from the players who voted for you. You win when all the Scum is eliminated. Badboy, will you be doing player feedback? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this motley crew I concur!
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