Why no gearbox in current sets?

[mobi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think only super cars Lego released that had proper gearbox were 8880, 8448 and 8466.

8865 and some older sets also had some crude versions of gearbox.

But since then none of Lego's super cars had gearbox!

What is the rational behind it?

[JunkstyleGio]

I thing it's because of the fact that a gearbox like the ones in the supercars you've mentioned dont add much to the playabillity of a set.

Lots of lego sets have switch-boxes (which are kind of gearboxes) to handle various functions.

[Sariel]

But since then none of Lego's super cars had gearbox!

Since then, there weren't really any actual LEGO supercars. 8070 is an arguable set, the philosophy behind how it's built seems typical for modern Power Functions sets rather than for the classic supercars line.

[mobi]

I am surprised that Lego is going backward! When Lego released the legendary 8880, it was probably the most complex toy car ever made. Since then Lego improved the gearbox in 8448 and 8466. But after that making it as good as the real life trend disappeared.

The 8070's gearbox is diabolical at best. I also detest how Lego uses power functions to run auxiliary functions rather than powering the whole vehicles.

Another reason might be psychology of today's kids. May be playability is more important for Lego now - rather than making it as good as it gets. May be modern kids are dumber compared to our generation and thus do not bother to take interest in how gearbox works! Which in all fairness, the most complex bits to understand.

[Pauger]

You sound very much like a grumpy old man mobi

A speed gearbox is of course more realistic in a car instead of opening doors and bonnets with it, but I find the multi-output gearbox in the newer sets much more interesting. The speed gearboxes only have one output, now it's often 4 or 6, and thus is more complex, and harder to build. So I don't really see how that is going backwards or adapting sets to "stupider kids". Besides the gearbox in 8448 and 8446 had gears which didn't mesh together properly. Not very impressive if you'd ask me.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Pauger

[DLuders]

More complex gearbox --> more cost --> fewer sales --> less profit for TLG.

[Alasdair Ryan]

If you do not like the currant gearboxes in sets/super cars why don't you try building a super car yourself with a 'speed gearbox' in it,that is the best thing about lego,you can build what ever you want and with technic you can add lots of cool functions.

The Lego group is restricted from the price side,I am sure thay would love to build a great super car with tons of great functions but it come down to price.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Alasdair Ryan

[chorlton]

TechnicBricks on coolness vs realism

[mobi]

why don't you try building a super car yourself with a 'speed gearbox' in it[/Quote]

I am back to Lego after a long dark age. I did play with 8880 in my late teens and had hours of fun with it (that was before the YouTube era so could not document any of those)

But now, with many other responsibilities in life, there is just not enough time to spend on Lego now.

So, I'd much prefer a stock set with all functions available out of the box.

So yes, I'm somewhat grumpy but may be that is due to age.

PS:

TechnicBricks on coolness vs realism [/Quote]

That's a good explanation.

Edited April 19, 2012 by mobi

[Meatman]

If you really think about it, the gearbox in the 8070 was just as complex than the ones in the older supercars.

[mobi]

8070 gearbox acts like transmission switching function rather than a true gearbox which multiplies torque in a conventional car's gearbox.

I think this has now been a trend. The 8258 or 9397 also uses gearbox in similar way.

No doubt this set up is complex, but still it is not realistic (at least for the cars).

[Meatman]

I'm not saying that it is realistic, but it is just as complex.

Say the 8070 had a gearbox similar to that of the 8448, then people would have been complaining that it didn't bring anything new to the table and used the same old features. I personally would have liked to see a functioning steering wheel in it. I remember back when Lego steering wheels actually worked. I see all of the MOCs by other builders who seem to have no trouble incorporating a working steering wheel into their car models and it doesn't look like they are spending a fortune doing so. I only say this because I understand that Lego designs their models on a budget.

[captainmib]

I'm not saying that it is realistic, but it is just as complex.

Say the 8070 had a gearbox similar to that of the 8448, then people would have been complaining that it didn't bring anything new to the table and used the same old features. I personally would have liked to see a functioning steering wheel in it. I remember back when Lego steering wheels actually worked. I see all of the MOCs by other builders who seem to have no trouble incorporating a working steering wheel into their car models and it doesn't look like they are spending a fortune doing so. I only say this because I understand that Lego designs their models on a budget.

I agree with you meatman. Lego could have easily made a working steeringwheel, which would have made the set even better.

I personaly really like the 8070 gearbox, and rather see some nice functions then just a driving-gearbox. The functionality of that is only visible if you

A) have it motorised or

B) Have it on a display (and somehow spin the wheels)

Maybe with the introduction of 9398 (with new motors) TLG is able to produce pf-rc cars with a driving-gearbox

[Pauger]

More complex gearbox --> more cost --> fewer sales --> less profit for TLG.

Hmm... what? The speed gearboxes were more complex and costly?

[Blakbird]

The answer to any "why" question about TLG generally comes from the market. LEGO tests all of their products through focus groups and actual play testing with kids. We AFOLs may prefer a gearbox which changes gear ratios because it more accurately represents the functions of a real car, but for most kids which are the target audience this is boring because you can't really see it doing anything. The gearbox in 8070 has noticeable and obvious effects on the car and is therefore fun to play with. Same goes for Power Functions. Personally, I would have preferred that 8070 not come with PF and be cheaper instead (and have a better looking rear bumper). I've no doubt that there was a prototype of such a model, but the kids liked the motor better.

[captainmib]

The answer to any "why" question about TLG generally comes from the market. LEGO tests all of their products through focus groups and actual play testing with kids. We AFOLs may prefer a gearbox which changes gear ratios because it more accurately represents the functions of a real car, but for most kids which are the target audience this is boring because you can't really see it doing anything. The gearbox in 8070 has noticeable and obvious effects on the car and is therefore fun to play with. Same goes for Power Functions. Personally, I would have preferred that 8070 not come with PF and be cheaper instead (and have a better looking rear bumper). I've no doubt that there was a prototype of such a model, but the kids liked the motor better.

I agree with that. Some models dont really need a motor to have well functioning functions.

I'd like to turn a knob and gear - it gives me more feeling with the model.

Switching to a function and let the motor do the rest is sometimes fun, but can easily become lazyness

When there are LA's in the question, the anwer becomes a bit different though. You need a lot of turns to have some effect - even with a motor.

[Paddy0174]

But neither does explain why TLG doesn't give out let's say "EditionModels"?

I'm quite sure there are a lot of people out there, that are willing to buy really great and detailed models, willing to pay more than the 200.-€ that the nowadays top models are.

Look at model railways. The prices for these models are partially astronomical, compared to LEGO... :)

[captainmib]

Well, if there is a limited budget for a set and the choice is A) a speed-gearbox or B) a function-gearbox i rather have the second.

But, yes, if there would be a limited edition technic model with both options, that would be great.

I wonder if would ever get a set like that in technic (like the $400 star wars sets - 3000 pieces etc.)

And yes, model railways are expensive. My dad has that as an hobby, the stuff he gathered over the years is worth a small fortune i guess.

So, what would we technic-heads want for a limited edition technic model? (with a price range of lets say €250 - 400?)

[Anio]

I agree with more or less everything that has been said here, except on this :

More complex gearbox --> more cost --> fewer sales --> less profit for TLG.

A gearbox like the one of 8070 (and models which have a similar gearbox) makes the model generally more complex than a standard gearbox.

Cause on 8070 (for example), you have 1 input, and 4 output that go everywhere in the model.

On a standard gearbox (8880), you have 1 input and 1 output on the engine.

Moreover, the models which are the most expensive to produce are also those which are sold at the higher price (captain obvious).

I'm pretty sure that it's these models that make a lot of profit.

[mobi]

More complex gearbox --> more cost --> fewer sales --> less profit for TLG.[/Quote]

Manufacturing cost depends on number of parts rather than complexity (which is subjective). So a cleverly designed model will cost no more than a not-so-clever model if they use same parts.

and why would more cost mean fewer sales? Some Star Wars sets cost a fortune compared to Technic sets.

If cost were a factor, then Lego could always release a model without Power Functions.

In one of the YouTube videos, TLG showed how they usually have multiple models (often with one without PF as well) and they go for PF one because focus group liked that one more.

But I still prefer old models where you could buy PF separately and then normal instructions always had the option of how to motorize your model.

Again I miss my old Lego days so much

Bit off topic, but I also miss the Universal sets. It was so good for beginners. You could make 6-8 models per Universal sets.

I also wonder what are the demography of Lego buyers now. If people buy more cheap sets, then it would make sense to release cheaper models without PF. But if most people now buy only few Lego sets, then probably they would one each set to be self contained (ie. with power functions etc.).

Since we never know what the board members in TLG think, we can only speculate.

[allanp]

I'de like to see proper speed changing transmission type gearboxes as common as the engine. Most vevicles that have an engine have a gearbox, not just supercars, why has TLG never released a truck with a gearbox? Why has it taken them over 30 years to release a truck with suspention? (And here comes my plea for new parts yet again ). You see with some new parts, like synchro mesh gears with 24, 22, 20 and 18 teeth to go with the 16t one we already have, and a redesign of the basic switching part so that the driving ring plus 2 gears is 3 studs long instead of four, we could have mechanicly simpler gearboxes (lower cost, easier for kids to assemble, understand and build MOCs with their own gearboxes) but also more realistic (read authentic), robust and efficient (less internal friction) gearboxes for us AFOLs that wish to motorise the whole vehicle. These new parts along with the cool mechanism required for changing gears would bring new things to the table as well as giving kids something to see happening.

It also seems that TLG are releasing two flagships per year now, one in about March for the kids (8070) and one in the summer aimed more towards AFOLs (8110), so if they plan on releasing a proper supercar as a main flagship in the coming years (I have a hunch they will) then I expect to see it bring something totally new to the table along the lines i've mentioned here.

Actually, it could go much further than that when it comes to realism. Wishbones for example are usually trangular and spaced much further apart (like they was in 8880) to hold the wheel more firmly and to provide more room for suspention elements and a CV joint that is big enough to take lots of strain whilst also able to move to very large angles, again more like 8880, but then that particular setup created so much friction you were lucky if no drive train elements broke before the car even started to move! You could argue that todays CVs are puny so they have the ability to be used in smaller sets however, this ability has never been used in the 10 or 11 years they have been around.

So, yeah, what was the question again?

Edited April 20, 2012 by allanp

[captainmib]

You see with some new parts, like synchro mesh gears with 24, 22, 20 and 18 teeth to go with the 16t one we already have, and a redesign of the basic switching part so that the driving ring plus 2 gears is 3 studs long instead of four, we could have mechanicly simpler gearboxes (lower cost, easier for kids to assemble, understand and build MOCs with their own gearboxes) but also more realistic (read authentic), robust and efficient (less internal friction) gearboxes for us AFOLs that wish to motorise the whole vehicle. These new parts along with the cool mechanism required for changing gears would bring new things to the table as well as giving kids something to see happening.

This would be so awesome. Synchro gears in all types could have loads of possibilities, not just for gearboxes...

[sqiddster]

It is all about the kids. If the main function of the model is just to make the engine spin faster when the car is driven by hand, kids will feel ripped off as they do not understand the mechanical complexities.

[mobi]

It is all about the kids. If the main function of the model is just to make the engine spin faster when the car is driven by hand, kids will feel ripped off as they do not understand the mechanical complexities.

Then why did Lego include gearbox in 1990s sets?

[andythenorth]

[shrug]

The Car Chassis (8860) had 2 or so gears http://www.brickset.com/detail/?Set=8860-1

I spent too long making it have 3 gears, reverse etc. It was probably fun at the time. Ultimately, it just makes the pistons go faster or slower.

I've built a PF truck with 2 gears, switch by PF. http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=307640

I'm not sure it was worth the effort. I did it when only bang-bang remotes were available; the proportional remotes reduce the need for gears.

Yeah, two speeds gives more torque in low range, but that tends to chew through gears.

As an AFOL-building-for-2-kids I don't miss gearboxes. Maybe I learnt some stuff from them when I was a kid, not 100% convinced though

Edited April 22, 2012 by andythenorth