2013 Train Sets

[Mike Walsh]

I completely agree: lately all issues have been monster sets (identical to monster investments).

It could be fun with a few releases of single cars and an engine within one or two themes

(like people or freight transport). This will be a cheap and easy way to extend the rolling stock.

For whatever reason LEGO doesn't think individual sets will sell sufficiently well. I don't understand this, it works very well for companies like Brio, Play Mobile, and Thomas the Tank Engine. Before working on the Hobby Train project there was a predecessor effort called "Signal". We were asked to provide feedback on the train product line. Unfortunately the decision to EOL the 9v train line had largely been made by the time we got involved so we had very little influence on the decision but our efforts did lead to the Hobby Train project.

If you're curious, you can read the White Paper I wrote back in December of 2004 which specifically covers the lack of rolling stock and why I felt it was limiting the success of the train line. You can find the blog post I wrote about publishing the paper here and the actual paper itself here.

Mike

[kieran]

For whatever reason LEGO doesn't think individual sets will sell sufficiently well. I don't understand this, it works very well for companies like Brio, Play Mobile, and Thomas the Tank Engine. Before working on the Hobby Train project there was a predecessor effort called "Signal". We were asked to provide feedback on the train product line. Unfortunately the decision to EOL the 9v train line had largely been made by the time we got involved so we had very little influence on the decision but our efforts did lead to the Hobby Train project.

If you're curious, you can read the White Paper I wrote back in December of 2004 which specifically covers the lack of rolling stock and why I felt it was limiting the success of the train line. You can find the blog post I wrote about publishing the paper here and the actual paper itself here.

Mike

Nice write up Mike, makes for some good reading, I really which they had kept the metal on plastic rails

[Sam892]

I think the main problem with train sets is that for the last few years the majority of them are attached to other themes. Apart from one or two which are all direct sets. Lego could really make a train theme work it just needs the right marketing and attention. Hopefully next year will have a few trains like the Santa Fe sets.

[tedbeard]

I think the main problem with train sets is that for the last few years the majority of them are attached to other themes.

Hmmm, I would say that was actually a good thing.

If you are selling trains to (parents of) kids, attaching it to a theme seems like a much better idea than stand-alone sets. A cargo train that can connect to the city harbour, city trucks and city buildings via a train station seems a lot more attractive to me as a parent. That is why the subway/lrt train suggestion above makes a lot of sense to me. Kids can add it to their existing towns and build around the sets. Making a beautifully detailed train set like Emerald Night was a great start but it needed an appropriate train station (should have used the modular style there I think) and rolling stock and a freight yard. Parents do not generally buy beautiful display models. They buy models that the kids can play with.

The new Lone Ranger theme could really use a train and while it could be part of the license, it could also be done as a complementary off-theme set (in a similar way that the Cuusoo Western Town set could be seen as not cannibalizing but rather adding to the sales).

It is a mistake to think of trains as anything other than a component of other themes. I know this is probably heresy around here but even die hard trainheads have to admit that there is something to be said for running trains through a layout that includes buildings and landscapes and people. Without a layout of some kind it is just a bunch of static models which, while cool, is not a large enough market by itself to sustain a business case for production.

[kyphur]

It is a mistake to think of trains as anything other than a component of other themes. I know this is probably heresy around here but even die hard trainheads have to admit that there is something to be said for running trains through a layout that includes buildings and landscapes and people. Without a layout of some kind it is just a bunch of static models which, while cool, is not a large enough market by itself to sustain a business case for production.

This makes perfect sense to me. Trains can't exist in a vacuum, without freight or passengers they simply don't serve any purpose. To have freight or passengers there must be stations, citys, airports, harbors and such. Trains are fun to watch going around track but it's all kind of pointless if they don't have places to stop and reasons to stop there.

[Hrw-Amen]

Yes indeed, I am all for running trains around a layout. The only problem being having the room to set one up and leave it. Even as a kid I had to pack everything away after I finished playing and bits got knocked off of buildings and the like even though I had a good few boxes to put them in to try and stop this. OK, It is LEGO and can be put back but I'd love to have the space even for a small permanent loop. Love to have all those other buildings to go with it mind you, a modular train station sounds good.

[hoeij]

For whatever reason LEGO doesn't think individual sets will sell sufficiently well. I don't understand this, it works very well for companies like Brio, Play Mobile, and Thomas the Tank Engine. Before working on the Hobby Train project there was a predecessor effort called "Signal". We were asked to provide feedback on the train product line. Unfortunately the decision to EOL the 9v train line had largely been made by the time we got involved so we had very little influence on the decision but our efforts did lead to the Hobby Train project.

Mike,

The Hobby Train was a very good replacement for individual sets. With so many models to choose from, it allowed us to build whichever was necessary: passenger cars, cargo, engines

(and some creativity was needed to make good use of the remaining pieces).

A follow-up on 10183 would be great.

[Sam892]

Hmmm, I would say that was actually a good thing.

If you are selling trains to (parents of) kids, attaching it to a theme seems like a much better idea than stand-alone sets. A cargo train that can connect to the city harbour, city trucks and city buildings via a train station seems a lot more attractive to me as a parent. That is why the subway/lrt train suggestion above makes a lot of sense to me.

The city sets are great because they are very universal and can be used in many of the other themes. But if you look at the the majority of trains from the past few years they are mostly based on small themes like Toy Story and Harry Potter. It's just a shame LEGO has to attach a licence in order to have faith that the product will sell. Even the Maersk train ( although wonderful and second best only to the emerald) is a licence train.

I would like to see a subway system. Not only because apart from the Spider-man version it hasn't really be done before but because it has a lot of potential.

[Mike Walsh]

Mike,

The Hobby Train was a very good replacement for individual sets. With so many models to choose from, it allowed us to build whichever was necessary: passenger cars, cargo, engines

(and some creativity was needed to make good use of the remaining pieces).

A follow-up on 10183 would be great.

I think it would be great too, particularly in a different color (e.g. dark red, dark blue, medium blue, etc.). Unfortunately I don't think it will ever happen again. Part of what drove the Hobby Train project to actually happen was that Jake McKee, the LEGO Community Liaison at the time, was a big train enthusiast. He really provided a ton of air cover and continued to nudge the project along when it stalled.

While it was an interesting project to work on, it was frustrating too, particularly when it came to color and element choice. The last thing we really wanted to put together was a red train. But it turned out that red was the only color we could get a reasonable amount of the parts train builders would want. So red became the primary color. Initially we only had access to either left OR right doors but not both. We told LEGO they were basically useless if we couldn't get both left AND right doors. In the end, I think the matching door was the only part specifically molded for the Hobby Train. Everything else came from existing inventory LEGO Had in stock.

I'd really like to see LEGO release add-on cars, particularly passenger cars for trains like the Emerald Night or freight cars. I don't think they will but I'd like to see it happen. Customers shouldn't have to re-buy all of the train infrastructure to make their trains longer. Until LEGO figures that out I think they'll have a lot of one time customers. At least sets like the Maersk Engine and Emerald Night didn't require purchasing the track, controller, motors, and other stuff I already have plenty of.

Mike

[zephyr1934]

Mike,

all of the background on the hobby train is fantastic (I think they also molded the gray sliding doors specifically for that set). There were several things wrong with the implementation beyond using common colors, a lesson I think they've learned since almost all subsequent DTC sets feature rare colors. This set was one of the early lego factory sets, you had to use LDD to view most of the instructions so you also had to be computer literate (not everyone has a laptop on their building table), LDD was a graphics intensive implementation so if your computer was more than 2 yrs old you might not even have been able to run LDD, etc.. Needless to say, the entry bar for the hobby train was much higher than almost any other lego set. Then what rare parts there were in the set were simultaneously available in the newly opened online PAB (it was a lego factory set after all). So that undercut the possibility of parting out the set. Finally, to add another nail to the coffin, in the middle of the run it became clear that the traditional magnets were a potential safety hazard. So they blew the remaining inventory out at half off. Unfortunately, I don't think Lego fully appreciates all of these hurdles the set had that kept it from being a success.

The AFOL train fan is a niche market for lego, so I suspect that is going to keep AFOL trains in the DTC for the near future (i.e., sets over $100, and probably only one new one every two years since the number of DTC sets is limited). After complaining at length on the ambassador forum that the Emerald Night only had one car I got a lengthy explanation that this was clearly a DTC set (because it had a five digit number), there are only a small number of DTC sets per year, DTC is completely separate from the normal sets, etc. (of course from the consumer side the DTC sets are mixed in with the non-DTC sets on S@H, with the only distinction being "exclusive").

Recognizing that the AFOL trains are a niche market, I suggested using the PAB facility to produce on-demand sets (at PAB prices) plus a few special items not available in the PAB, e.g., a sticker sheet or ??? Keep production costs down for a smaller production run, serve the niche market, and turn a profit. If they the train sets had a set number, some collectors would buy them as well (so it would go further than the user designed lego factory options of the day). I suspect the poor implementation of space skulls probably made this option a non-starter for the wrong reasons (If you are going to pick a set by hand, pick it by hand. If you are going to make a boxed production set, then it should not have been a "factory set").

It would be great if lego got clever and employed some of the design styles of the 1970's and 1980's in the AFOL train sets- i.e., including both a primary model and a secondary model. With the locomotive being the primary model and a few train cars being the secondary model but with the vision that the two would work well together. Build one option with the set and if you want a full train, buy another copy to build the other option. So not quite as far as the hobby train, probably more like the Santa Fe passenger cars in terms of flexibility and a more rigid common theme. Of course such a design would require a greater effort on the preproduction side, so here's another hurdle.

There are some hints in this direction in the Maersk train (albeit very small). The cars can take two containers end to end (European style) or double stack (US style).

I suspect lego is approaching Cuusso as "lego factory 2.0" and in the long run they intend to actually use it to serve niche markets like the AFOL train fans. They are starting out with a few sets per year, but once they get it moving, I bet the number of sets per year will grow. Remember before lego got the on-line PAB running that the original implementation of lego factory actually had a few different bags that you could be shipped and you got "bonus pieces" with most designs. I hope a nice Cuusso train car is in the future, but it probably won't be cheap.

It has been a while since I've fired up LDD. It would be great if you could limit the available parts to one or more specific sets (that functionality might be in LDD already, I don't know). So that when you browse models, you'd know if you had set 10194 and "these parts" you could build this design. In this way any train set could become like the hobby train. Only the fans would design the alternative models after release. Then an AFOL group could have a competition for the best design and compile a good library for the community.

Benn

[medib]

Benn,

thanks for your comments. What you said made a lot of sense.

Though I personally think that it will be quite a while until we see a cuusoo train model being produced.

It would be nice, IMO, if there the person in charge of the online PAB pallett was a diehard train fan....

then it would be more train parts and less hero factory parts. :D

[Ondra]

Do you know this?On brickset somebody wrote this http://www.bricksetforum.com/discussion/comment/111350/#Comment_111350 .He wrote, there maybe be new train called "Horizon express" .I think is going to be new exclusive set that is supposed to replace maersk.

I cant wait for new information.

[antp]

Yes they just posted it on their Facebook page:

and more info here:

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.475246919174529.109577.207089142656976&type=1

Edited September 29, 2012 by antp

[Timoonn]

uncanny resemblance

Edited September 29, 2012 by Timoonn

[LegoSjaak]

Yes they just posted it on their Facebook page:

http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/576911_475247345841153_1606656117_n.jpg

and more info here:

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.475246919174529.109577.207089142656976&type=1

Nice, i might buy one or two...ideal for putting the backs together, so you have a nice long train!!

Greetz, LegoSjaak

Edited September 29, 2012 by LegoSjaak

[JopieK]

uncanny resemblance

I totally agree, I didn't see your post but also just posted this image in that other topic ;)

[PeteM]

Do you know this?On brickset somebody wrote this http://www.bricksetforum.com/discussion/comment/111350/#Comment_111350 .He wrote, there maybe be new train called "Horizon express" .I think is going to be new exclusive set that is supposed to replace maersk.

I cant wait for new information.

So they were right about about the release and the name - anyone know if the 'replace the Maersk' bit is true? Have only just got back into trains and have been paying for a wedding the past six months so haven't got round to buying the Maersk yet! It wondering if I need to shift it up my priority list..?

[peterab]

So they were right about about the release and the name - anyone know if the 'replace the Maersk' bit is true? Have only just got back into trains and have been paying for a wedding the past six months so haven't got round to buying the Maersk yet! It wondering if I need to shift it up my priority list..?

Once the Maersk was released it wasn't long until the Emerald Night was no longer available. I'd guess once stocks run out of the Maersk that will be it. It is likely stock will last till after the release of this train till after January though. The Mearsk train has just moved firmly up my priority list though :-)

[roamingstop]

I was reading through Brickset and saw a reference to a Lone Ranger Train... and since the trailer for the film uses a heavy train influence... it is not beyond the realms of impossability that we get a revisted Toy Story locomotive.

79111 Constitution Train Chase 2013....

It might be old news but I was on holidays enjoying English Rain. Reminds me why I moved abroad.

Edited October 11, 2012 by roamingstudio

[Locomotive Annie]

As a life long railway enthusiast and now Lego and brick construction set newbie I want to see track, especially straight track and points/switches become more available as an over the counter purchase. And I would like to be able to buy individual passenger carriages and goods wagons. Some good SNOT early 20th Century steam locos would be good too, - especially tank engines.

Hi-speed modern trains don't interest me at all and I don't buy them unless I'm planning on buying them at discount to mine for parts for another project.

Folk might complain about makers like Enlighten, but it seems to me that they are selling what brick train enthusiasts want. Track packs, individual passenger coaches and wagons, and individually packed locos at an affordable price..

[nesquik]

For whatever reason LEGO doesn't think individual sets will sell sufficiently well. I don't understand this, it works very well for companies like Brio, Play Mobile, and Thomas the Tank Engine.

It's worked for companies like those because the products in question are entirely different. 'Lego' is a construction toy, and the costs involved are subject to the size of moulds and how often they are used.

A good example is the 'track packs' - they weren't selling very well when we had more varieties, but since consolidating the product line-up, they've sold better.

[Carrera124]

It's worked for companies like those because the products in question are entirely different. 'Lego' is a construction toy, and the costs involved are subject to the size of moulds and how often they are used.

?

But Lego only has to re-use existing moulds (bricks) in order to create new train sets. This might improve the usage of the capacity of the moulds, and therefore should reduce costs of the corresponding bricks.

Other companies have often to build new moulds (nearly) from scratch when creating single carriages and goods wagons.

So, regarding costs, Lego should have a great advantage.

Instead, 7 (!) new firemen sets are announced for 2013 city lineup. Even 4 would have been enough, imho.

[nesquik]

But Lego only has to re-use existing moulds (bricks) in order to create new train sets. This might improve the usage of the capacity of the moulds, and therefore should reduce costs of the corresponding bricks.

In the case of Lego City train products, the most expensive components are the train tracks and Power Functions. The locomotives/wagons themselves actually use more legacy components these days.

Other companies have often to build new moulds (nearly) from scratch when creating single carriages and goods wagons.

So, regarding costs, Lego should have a great advantage.

More factors are taken into account than simply the quantity of output. For example, the injection machines at TLG have a precision that most other companies can't (and actually don't need to) match; this is required for perfect interlocking of the components. Companies like Brio/Playmobil don't follow this path because a single product is its own system, whereas Lego products are part of a larger system.

Edited October 15, 2012 by nesquik

[Carrera124]

In the case of Lego City train products, the most expensive components are the train tracks and Power Functions. The locomotives/wagons themselves actually use more legacy components these days.

Right. But single wagons don't need power functions elements, and they also don't need train tracks.

So, it should be no problem to create more single wagons.

More factors are taken into account than simply the quantity of output. For example, the injection machines at TLG have a precision that most other companies can't (and actually don't need to) match; this is required for perfect interlocking of the components. Companies like Brio/Playmobil don't follow this path because a single product is its own system, whereas Lego products are part of a larger system.

That's right, too. But this does affect ALL bricks and sets, no only train sets. So, there is no reason why this should prevent releasing additional train stuff.

[tedbeard]

A good example is the 'track packs' - they weren't selling very well when we had more varieties, but since consolidating the product line-up, they've sold better.

If they had actually sold 'track packs' in stores alongside train sets then maybe they would have sold better. Over the last ten years train sets have been virtually invisible to the general consumer and the few times sets were available in stores there were few if any accessories or supplemental sets available in stores. It was all well and good to sell a fantastic Christmas Train a few years ago but I would guess that 90% of the consumers who purchased one saw no track available, let alone switches or motors available for purchase at the same store.