Heroica Theatre

[Palathadric]

Pretzel is a really inconsistent character. On the one hand, he leans toward Evil because his outlook seems entirely self-centered (people are "good" or "evil" in his view based on what he personally thinks of them), but on the other he does support his party and help out the people he thinks are good (which is somewhat Good-aligned). On the Good-Evil axis, I'd probably put him as Neutral. He definitely seems more Chaotic than anything else on the Lawful-Chaotic spectrum, though.

Wait! Is Pretzel Chaotic-Evil? Whoa!

Seriously, though, isn't he "lawful" in the way that he is relatively law-abiding and "mainstream" not really open to change and all that. Or is that not what "Lawful" means?

[Kintobor]

Wait! Is Pretzel Chaotic-Evil? Whoa!

Seriously, though, isn't he "lawful" in the way that he is relatively law-abiding and "mainstream" not really open to change and all that. Or is that not what "Lawful" means?

I'd say lawful neutral. Flipz is just saying his back and forth between good an evil actions is somewhat chaotic.

[Yzalirk]

The character you described is "Chaotic Evil", and that particular alignment should be avoided in this game.

Then I'd be pretty much a generic character. I need help with incorporating the good and bad elements then.

There's a big difference between someone who likes killing and someone who likes fighting/honour/glory/etc.

Someone who likes Killing is, to be frank, a bit of a terrible person. There's nothing good or redeeming about killing. There's no reason for someone who likes killing to be in the Heroica organization, really, because Heroica isn't really a place to go where someone wants to kill something. It's a place to help others.

However, someone who likes fighting or the honour/glory that comes with fights? That's redeemable. They like the fight itself, like the adrenaline, and aren't focused solely on killing something. Certainly sometimes a character like that is going to wind up killing people, but that doesn't mean they enjoy the killing or find it necessary. It gives them a chance to be merciful, to be something beyond "I kill for sport because I enjoy it." It gives them an interesting moral dilemma (Something I Enjoy VS Something that is Morally Right). It gives them more of a ground to stand on and it gives more of a connection to Heroica as a organization and to the other Heroes (I Joined For Honour and Glory). A character doesn't have to be a goody-two-shoes to be good, and a character doesn't have to be "evil" to be "interesting and fresh and new."

That's the difference between Evil and Neutral, in this case, I think.

I've played the good guy in so many RPG's, Fallout 3 is my best example, that I want to change it around and be someone else. I don't want to be the guy who helps people just to be recognized as a glorious or honorable person. I want to be somewhat the opposite and kill those who stand in my way/pose a threat. Honor and glory is not what my character seeks, he seeks riches and loot, sort of like a mercenary I guess. The only times I'd want to be logical would be with situations knowing that I can't make it out alive so laying down arms is the best option.

Maybe this is sounding more Neutral, I don't know. I do like the Wolfgang faction and I want my character to act as if he'd get along with that crowd. So I'll assume it's about being more sympathetic towards the common folk rather than the rich and selfish I guess.

[Flipz]

There's a big difference between someone who likes killing and someone who likes fighting/honour/glory/etc.

Someone who likes Killing is, to be frank, a bit of a terrible person. There's nothing good or redeeming about killing. There's no reason for someone who likes killing to be in the Heroica organization, really, because Heroica isn't really a place to go where someone wants to kill something. It's a place to help others.

However, someone who likes fighting or the honour/glory that comes with fights? That's redeemable. They like the fight itself, like the adrenaline, and aren't focused solely on killing something. Certainly sometimes a character like that is going to wind up killing people, but that doesn't mean they enjoy the killing or find it necessary. It gives them a chance to be merciful, to be something beyond "I kill for sport because I enjoy it." It gives them an interesting moral dilemma (Something I Enjoy VS Something that is Morally Right). It gives them more of a ground to stand on and it gives more of a connection to Heroica as a organization and to the other Heroes (I Joined For Honour and Glory). A character doesn't have to be a goody-two-shoes to be good, and a character doesn't have to be "evil" to be "interesting and fresh and new."

That's the difference between Evil and Neutral, in this case, I think.

You also have the people who feel they have to kill for the sake of the greater good--the ones that believe the world is better off if certain people are not allowed to live. That seems to be the motivation behind most of Heroica's Assassins, and it's very clearly not an automatic "Evil" sentence (though obviously it has been for some).

I can, but if Kintobor is working on it, anything else I can tackle?

Well, there's two promised "Coming Soon" skits from Opening Night that I still haven't managed to deliver on. "The Road Goes Ever On: Playing your character for the long haul" and "Rush Hero: Exercising Patience in Roleplaying".

[Lind Whisperer]

Then I'd be pretty much a generic character.

Think of the scale as a plain flour cake. It's what you put on the cake, that makes it new or boring. (E.g., everyone's generic to one degree or another, it's their personalities that make them not generic.)

I've played the good guy in so many RPG's, Fallout 3 is my best example, that I want to change it around and be someone else. I don't want to be the guy who helps people just to be recognized as a glorious or honorable person. I want to be somewhat the opposite and kill those who stand in my way/pose a threat. Honor and glory is not what my character seeks, he seeks riches and loot, sort of like a mercenary I guess. The only times I'd want to be logical would be with situations knowing that I can't make it out alive so laying down arms is the best option.

There aren't that many characters like that in Heroica* - maybe look up some of Sarge's quests?

Maybe this is sounding more Neutral, I don't know. I do like the Wolfgang faction and I want my character to act as if he'd get along with that crowd. So I'll assume it's about being more sympathetic towards the common folk rather than the rich and selfish I guess.

There's a difference between "getting along with the crowd" and sympathy. Just pointing it out...

*We are all mercs, but we're very nice mercs.

Well, there's two promised "Coming Soon" skits from Opening Night that I still haven't managed to deliver on. "The Road Goes Ever On: Playing your character for the long haul" and "Rush Hero: Exercising Patience in Roleplaying".

Someone needs to write "IV Before I Only Works in Space: Don't Reference Too Many Things That The Audience Doesn't Know Yet". Edited August 21, 2015 by Lind Whisperer

[JimBee]

The link was helpful, Kint/Lind. I've read up on alignments a lot but I never really remember the ins and outs of all nine labels. Besides that putting a label on a character, even if it's a tabletop character, is kind of belittling and could be debated. By belittling I mean that you're boxing in a character that has taken a lot of effort to write. They're full of contradictions and nuances that defy an alignment label, just like real people. At least, I try to write my characters that way. They're not 100% good or 100% evil all the time, but they have a set of core beliefs and are influenced by their mood, environment, situation, etc.

But yeah I'm sure all you tabletop experts already know all that and I'm just babbling. For the sake of the conversation I'd say Hybros is... Chaotic Good? He's definitely found a utilitarian in himself and I think when we had this conversation at the beginning of the game he was True Neutral. He wants what's best for the most amount of people, and it just so happens that he'll side with the "most people" that he likes the best. Usually that means an organization that aims to help for the sake of helping general interests rather than to hurt for the sake of helping select interests. See Crimson Crown or Order Imperial for the latter. He owes loyalty to the imps, but wants to see all people thrive as well.

Lind, you deleted a part of a comment that said Jinnipher was lawful good. I'm not saying you're wrong, but can anyone in Heroica truly be Lawful Good if they all boil down to sellswords? No one works for free. Unless I'm misunderstanding the definition. I found this which is maybe an extreme version of Jinnipher, but close enough. It falls under Neutral Good.

[KotZ]

Actually, Na'im on 136 specifically has done pretty well with being difficult without demolishing the Quest for anyone else. Can't say the same about him on 128, but then again the entire party other than Boris had the whole "doesn't play well with others" problem on 128, which is why I didn't enjoy following it.

I agree. I'm really liking Na'im even though Kiray doesn't agree with him nearly at all. He has his ways but doesn't intrude on the other characters.

Kiray I think is falling somewhere into the neutral area. She started off wanting to help people and is slowly moving into a more, not selfish, reserved state.

[Scubacarrot]

I disagree with a lot of you here and will say that Heroica is NOT a Good organization, and it's focus is not helping people, it's profit and riches for it's members. It is very clearly a Neutral organization. I think playing an evil character is harder than playing a good character, but perfectly doable. Some or a lot of it has to do with quests that are offered. A requirement for a quest to be accepted is: Would the veterans approve this quest? And that can be tricky, but a quest that has evil connotations seems totallly doable. And that's not me saying Calamity is a decent character (she's not) or is even evil (she's probably not), that's just me having thought about it. Obviously you can't go around killing npc's and betraying your party at every turn, but what you can do is have your character's motivations and small actions (what I call actions that don't concern the greater narrative of the quest) be of any morality. Maybe a character helps someone because they know they'll end up stronger because of it, and will end up using their power for their own nefarious goals later, maybe they are just waiting for the perfect moment to strike, as many an evil character in narrative.

As for my own character's morality, Guts has been anything from Lawful good to Chaotic Neutral with the occasional dip in evil territory. I can't classify him easily, I just have no idea.

[Kintobor]

Lind, you deleted a part of a comment that said Jinnipher was lawful good. I'm not saying you're wrong, but can anyone in Heroica truly be Lawful Good if they all boil down to sellswords? No one works for free. Unless I'm misunderstanding the definition. I found this which is maybe an extreme version of Jinnipher, but close enough. It falls under Neutral Good.

Knights are usually Lawful Good, because they generally still follow a code of conduct, even if it's a moral code. Annienal's pretty Lawful Good.

And that's not me saying Calamity is a decent character (she's not) or is even evil (she's probably not),

Calamity is 100% Chaotic Evil. She worships demons, a known group of evil entities, and she's sacrificed people in order to get demons favour. I'm honestly shocked Calamity hasn't been run through with a sword by a Paladin or a Cleric.

[Scubacarrot]

Calamity is 100% Chaotic Evil. She worships demons, a known group of evil entities, and she's sacrificed people in order to get demons favour. I'm honestly shocked Calamity hasn't been run through with a sword by a Paladin or a Cleric.

Oh please, everyone knows demons are chronically misunderstood, and who says those people that were sacrificed weren't terrible people themselves?

[Lind Whisperer]

Lind, you deleted a part of a comment that said Jinnipher was lawful good. I'm not saying you're wrong, but can anyone in Heroica truly be Lawful Good if they all boil down to sellswords? No one works for free. Unless I'm misunderstanding the definition. I found this which is maybe an extreme version of Jinnipher, but close enough. It falls under Neutral Good.

I deleted it because I thought it over, and I realized I was really picturing a Knight Templar instead of Lawful Good, so I deleted it. Good link - I think that + Knight Templar is a good description of Jinnipher - at least from my POV.

[Kintobor]

Oh please, everyone knows demons are chronically misunderstood, and who says those people that were sacrificed weren't terrible people themselves?

She still participated in sacrificing people. Just because you perform an evil action on evil people doesn't make it any less evil.

[JimBee]

I've played the good guy in so many RPG's, Fallout 3 is my best example, that I want to change it around and be someone else. I don't want to be the guy who helps people just to be recognized as a glorious or honorable person. I want to be somewhat the opposite and kill those who stand in my way/pose a threat. Honor and glory is not what my character seeks, he seeks riches and loot, sort of like a mercenary I guess. The only times I'd want to be logical would be with situations knowing that I can't make it out alive so laying down arms is the best option.

Maybe this is sounding more Neutral, I don't know. I do like the Wolfgang faction and I want my character to act as if he'd get along with that crowd. So I'll assume it's about being more sympathetic towards the common folk rather than the rich and selfish I guess.

If you're going for the merc who's just in it for himself in 136, then you're doing wrong. From what I've read in that quest Mhinak wants nothing more than to help the forest guardians.

You don't have to be ruthless to be self-interested, though. Play up the dwarf stereotype of their love for gold. It doesn't make them evil, just helplessly selfish. And maybe do a good turn on the side?

[Scubacarrot]

Anyone want to take a crack at Karie? She's no Lawful character, considering her distaste for the Watch, but I don't think she's 100% good, either.

She's chaotic evil. She stole Guts' apples.

[Endgame]

She's chaotic evil. She stole Guts' apples.

Did Guts not acquire that ship via murder?

[Scubacarrot]

She still participated in sacrificing people. Just because you perform an evil action on evil people doesn't make it any less evil.

Is killing then not evil? All Heroes in Heroica have killed people, pretty much. By that logic everyone is evil. I have a very different view on morality in Heroica than you, it seems, and I think that's pretty cool. Just don't put down characters because you think they don't fit. It's a player driven game, if it doesn't fit, there's usually room to make it fit.

Did Guts not acquire that ship via murder?

Nah he was given 33% of that ship by a person in charge.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Scubacarrot

[Lind Whisperer]

Calamity is 100% Chaotic Evil. She worships demons, a known group of evil entities, and she's sacrificed people in order to get demons favour. I'm honestly shocked Calamity hasn't been run through with a sword by a Paladin or a Cleric.

Yeah, if Lind and Calamity meet...They probably aren't going to fight, but Lind's going to stay far away from her...

(I honestly kind of wish Lind could join the group Throlar/Karie/other person who I'm embarrassingly forgetting are secretly forming. I almost think he'd fit in...of course, that's not likely to happen after he and Karie tangled over semantics in #138, and Throlar's opinion of Lind, after a certain drunken Hall...Yeah, "The Road Goes Ever On...")

She still participated in sacrificing people. Just because you perform an evil action on evil people doesn't make it any less evil.

[Yzalirk]

I suppose you're right, Lind.

I'll take a look at some of Sarge's quests but right now, I'm looking at how Hodurr acts and speaks to give me a clue as to how I would want my character to act.

I don't want to be a nice mercenary but I guess more of a Neutral one. The more I keep thinking about this, the more I feel I should just be a Neutral character. I know that if there's someone who asks for help, my first response would be something along the lines of "What's in it for me?".

I disagree with a lot of you here and will say that Heroica is NOT a Good organization, and it's focus is not helping people, it's profit and riches for it's members. It is very clearly a Neutral organization. I think playing an evil character is harder than playing a good character, but perfectly doable. Some or a lot of it has to do with quests that are offered. A requirement for a quest to be accepted is: Would the veterans approve this quest? And that can be tricky, but a quest that has evil connotations seems totallly doable. And that's not me saying Calamity is a decent character (she's not) or is even evil (she's probably not), that's just me having thought about it. Obviously you can't go around killing npc's and betraying your party at every turn, but what you can do is have your character's motivations and small actions (what I call actions that don't concern the greater narrative of the quest) be of any morality. Maybe a character helps someone because they know they'll end up stronger because of it, and will end up using their power for their own nefarious goals later, maybe they are just waiting for the perfect moment to strike, as many an evil character in narrative.

I like that and I pretty much agree.

I'm not saying that I would go around killing all NPC's in sight but rather than the ones who are causing problems for my character and not holding back. I've always played the type of character who would try and come to a peaceful conclusion first. I want to go different for a change and be the type of character who split someone head open if they are annoying.

Like I said before, I feel that being a somewhat sadistic character is what I want to aim for, especially if I wanted to be a barbarian tribesman since he really has no grasp of how others act. It's alien to him and he can't change in an instant. He would easily yell "DO YA LIKE THE SIGHT OF YER OWN BLOOD?!" when in a battle. Hopefully this is making a little sense.

If you're going for the merc who's just in it for himself in 136, then you're doing wrong. From what I've read in that quest Mhinak wants nothing more than to help the forest guardians.

You don't have to be ruthless to be self-interested, though. Play up the dwarf stereotype of their love for gold. It doesn't make them evil, just helplessly selfish. And maybe do a good turn on the side?

It's a bit more complicated than that. I do love the aspect of Dwarves being greedy but I'd love to incorporate that with the barbaric tribesman attitude in the sense he's sadistic but loves loot.

[Kintobor]

She's chaotic evil. She stole Guts' apples.

That's more of a neutral evil action, though.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Kintobor

[Pyrovisionary]

There aren't that many characters like that in Heroica* - maybe look up some of Sarge's quests?

I'll take a look at some of Sarge's quests but right now, I'm looking at how Hodurr acts and speaks to give me a clue as to how I would want my character to act.

Well #100 is probably some of my best RP, and it has Hodurr so . I'd also suggest looking at Eric's (Khorne) quests.

[Kintobor]

I have a very different view on morality in Heroica than you, it seems, and I think that's pretty cool. Just don't put down characters because you think they don't fit. It's a player driven game, if it doesn't fit, there's usually room to make it fit.

And that's cool. I'm just saying when you look at traditional D&D alignment trees, Calamity fits the Chaotic Evil alignment pretty well. I think you play Calamity well, I just don't think she works in a group full of Good and Neutral aligned heroes for that reason, because they have no reason to trust Calamity. I find it hard knowing she's a demon worshipper and finding a reason to not run her through on the spot, because I know she's your character and I don't want to flat out kill a PC without the players permission.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Kintobor

[JimBee]

Knights are usually Lawful Good, because they generally still follow a code of conduct, even if it's a moral code. Annienal's pretty Lawful Good.

I'd contest that class has anything to do with alignment. Most of the reasons I picked Knight for Jinnipher were purely mechanical, and one RP reason was actually for the contrast between what a "noble" Knight is supposed to be and her superiority complex.

I deleted it because I thought it over, and I realized I was really picturing a Knight Templar instead of Lawful Good, so I deleted it. Good link - I think that + Knight Templar is a good description of Jinnipher - at least from my POV.

This? Some of it yes, some of it no. Like you said.

[Lind Whisperer]

Is killing then not evil? All Heroes in Heroica have killed people, pretty much. By that logic everyone is evil.

It's why they kill, not if they kill - what are their intentions.

(Yes, I am over-using Lind as an example.)

Take #138, and Lind killing Vorpalis. He was determined to stick to the contract - e.g, Good. But he was prepared to stick to it at the cost of killing a creature that had been unjustly treated. Bad. But the creature had been killing and slaughtering, and killing was one way to stop that. Good. But there might have been other ways to stop it, e.g., more peaceable ways, which Lind didn't seek out. Leaning towards bad. But peaceful ways had been somewhat tried by Skrall, and they hadn't worked. Partially justifying Lind's non-inclination to continue them. But if Lind had joined Skrall, things might have turned out differently - two is more than one, etc., etc...

This? Some of it yes, some of it no. Like you said.

Yep.

[Yzalirk]

Well #100 is probably some of my best RP, and it has Hodurr so . I'd also suggest looking at Eric's (Khorne) quests.

On it!

[Lind Whisperer]

And that's cool. I'm just saying when you look at traditional D&D alignment trees, Calamity fits the Chaotic Evil alignment pretty well. I think you play Calamity well, I just don't think she works in a group full of Good and Neutral aligned heroes for that reason, because they have no reason to trust Calamity.

The thing I've had with Calamity, is that she just seems...rather spontaneous, and...rather forthputting about her stance. "Hi, everyone! I worship demons! Anyone want to summon one?"

It could just be me, though.

I find it hard knowing she's a demon worshipper and finding a reason to not run her through on the spot, because I know she's your character and I don't want to flat out kill a PC without the players permission.

Lind, if they were on a group:

"If you keep to yourself and don't hurt anyone, I'll leave you to yourself to keep on not hurting anyone. If you do anything - anything - to hurt anyone in this group, I will do whatever - whatever - it takes, to stop you from continuing to hurt them."