Heroica Theatre

[Flipz]

I disagree with a lot of you here and will say that Heroica is NOT a Good organization, and it's focus is not helping people, it's profit and riches for it's members. It is very clearly a Neutral organization. I think playing an evil character is harder than playing a good character, but perfectly doable. Some or a lot of it has to do with quests that are offered. A requirement for a quest to be accepted is: Would the veterans approve this quest? And that can be tricky, but a quest that has evil connotations seems totallly doable. And that's not me saying Calamity is a decent character (she's not) or is even evil (she's probably not), that's just me having thought about it. Obviously you can't go around killing npc's and betraying your party at every turn, but what you can do is have your character's motivations and small actions (what I call actions that don't concern the greater narrative of the quest) be of any morality. Maybe a character helps someone because they know they'll end up stronger because of it, and will end up using their power for their own nefarious goals later, maybe they are just waiting for the perfect moment to strike, as many an evil character in narrative.

As for my own character's morality, Guts has been anything from Lawful good to Chaotic Neutral with the occasional dip in evil territory. I can't classify him easily, I just have no idea.

Motivation is a great way of having Gameplay And Story Segregation between a selfish character that still needs to work with the rest of the party (i.e. have a selfish character without being a selfish player).

Is killing then not evil? All Heroes in Heroica have killed people, pretty much. By that logic everyone is evil. I have a very different view on morality in Heroica than you, it seems, and I think that's pretty cool. Just don't put down characters because you think they don't fit. It's a player driven game, if it doesn't fit, there's usually room to make it fit.

Murderhobos. There is not room in this game for murderhobos, which is what several characters seem to be leaning towards recently. If I as a QM am going to put in the effort to make compelling characters and stories, I'm not going to invite characters who seem to exist solely to ignore/trash them and do what they want.

(For the record, Calamity is not a murderhobo. Alignment-wise, she's Evil for sure, but the key is that she doesn't pursue her personal goals at the expense of the other players' fun--you as a player usually see where that line is and avoid letting your characters cross it. )

I'm not saying that I would go around killing all NPC's in sight but rather than the ones who are causing problems for my character and not holding back. I've always played the type of character who would try and come to a peaceful conclusion first. I want to go different for a change and be the type of character who split someone head open if they are annoying.

Like I said before, I feel that being a somewhat sadistic character is what I want to aim for, especially if I wanted to be a barbarian tribesman since he really has no grasp of how others act. It's alien to him and he can't change in an instant. He would easily yell "DO YA LIKE THE SIGHT OF YER OWN BLOOD?!" when in a battle. Hopefully this is making a little sense.

It's a bit more complicated than that. I do love the aspect of Dwarves being greedy but I'd love to incorporate that with the barbaric tribesman attitude in the sense he's sadistic but loves loot.

Look at it from the perspective of a content creator. I'm not likely to bring along a character who's going to just straight up try and murder my NPCs whenever they prove to be an obstacle--at least, not unless that's the intention behind them. (Yes, we QMs do create characters we specifically intend the players to hate and/or kill.) Quests are a collaborative experience, and making any character too rigid to adapt to the overall tone is a recipe for awkwardness and frustration; if you want your character to rigidly "attack anything that gets in my way", then you're not going to find a lot of Quests where your character is a good fit.

Look at Docken. He exists solely for the purpose of loot and experience, but Brickdoctor has always made sure Docken's actions weren't ruining anyone else's fun. That's the key, that's what differentiates a selfish but workable character from a character that no one wants to play with--how likely YOU as a player are to consider your QM's and your fellow players' needs. If you make it clear that your own personal roleplaying is more important to you than your fellow players' and QM's enjoyment, then no one is going to want to play with you.

[Pyrovisionary]

Sarge is Chaotic neutral.

I'd say his views on killing have been twisted over his years as a soldier that he doesn't need to justify killing anymore. But yet I guess he'd have moral standards, no point stealing from Paupers and such. In terms of law, it's not illegal if you don't get caught. If you get caught glass em' and don't get caught again. He fights for his friends, personal gain and pride. And he hates it when people try to justify their actions with right and wrong or petty ideology.

I'm not the most reputable RP'er so what does everyone else think?

"If you keep to yourself and don't hurt anyone, I'll leave you to yourself to keep on not hurting anyone. If you do anything - anything - to hurt anyone in this group, I will do whatever - whatever - it takes, to stop you from continuing to hurt them."

Yeah, Sarge's approach would be alot less glamorous. "You try that crazy stuff on me or me mates yer dead."

Edited August 21, 2015 by Pyrovisionary

[Lind Whisperer]

Sarge is Chaotic neutral.

I'd say his views on killing have been twisted over his years as a soldier that he doesn't need to justify killing anymore. But yet I guess he'd have moral standard, no point stealing from Paupers and such. In terms of law, it's not illegal if you don't get caught. If you get caught glass em' and don't get caught again. He fights for his friends, personal gain and pride.

I'm not the most reputable RP'er so what does everyone else think?

He reminds me very much of the band of British vagrants in The Prince and the Pauper. Not a bad thing(At least IMHO).

Yeah, Sarge's approach would be alot less glamorous. "You try that crazy stuff on me or me mates yer dead."

Seriously, someone make a note of it: Lind and Sarge on a quest together.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Lind Whisperer

[Pyrovisionary]

He reminds me very much of the band of British vagrants in The Prince and the Pauper. Not a bad thing(At least IMHO).

Never seen it I'm afraid. I was partly influenced by the soldiers in the glorious UK sitcom Bluestone 42

Seriously, someone make a note of it: Lind and Sarge on a quest together.

They'd clash, but maybe in a good way. Mainly because Lind is too intellectual for his own good, but it'd certainly be fun to find out

[Lind Whisperer]

Never seen it I'm afraid. I was partly influenced by the soldiers in the glorious UK sitcom Bluestone 42

Book by Mark Twain - here's a public domain link with pictures.

They'd clash, but maybe in a good way. Mainly because Lind is too intellectual for his own good, but it'd certainly be fun to find out

[Yzalirk]

Look at it from the perspective of a content creator. I'm not likely to bring along a character who's going to just straight up try and murder my NPCs whenever they prove to be an obstacle--at least, not unless that's the intention behind them. (Yes, we QMs do create characters we specifically intend the players to hate and/or kill.) Quests are a collaborative experience, and making any character too rigid to adapt to the overall tone is a recipe for awkwardness and frustration; if you want your character to rigidly "attack anything that gets in my way", then you're not going to find a lot of Quests where your character is a good fit.

Look at Docken. He exists solely for the purpose of loot and experience, but Brickdoctor has always made sure Docken's actions weren't ruining anyone else's fun. That's the key, that's what differentiates a selfish but workable character from a character that no one wants to play with--how likely YOU as a player are to consider your QM's and your fellow players' needs. If you make it clear that your own personal roleplaying is more important to you than your fellow players' and QM's enjoyment, then no one is going to want to play with you.

I do think that if the NPC, who is potentially hostile, is not intimidated would be engaged pretty fast. So basically it's either intimidate the person to stop or leave or, if that fails, death to that person. That's probably the better way I should have put it.

I also do suppose I could adjust it around it a bit and be more sadistic when it's more necessary. I do like the thought of caring for allies as if they were apart of the tribe and put myself in front of harms way. That way it's got that balance between sadistic warrior and caring tribesman, you know? It'll just take time to get to understand the person. Or he could be like Handsome Jack from Borderlands, he's a bit crazy but you like him - crazy and charismatic at the same time.

[The Legonater]

I think Dyric is pretty obviously Lawful or Neutral Good, but I have a hard time figuring out which one.

[CMP]

Atramor used to be straight up Chaotic Good. Then he shifted over to Neutral for a while now he's trying to figure out where the hell he fits on the Chaotic/Lawful spectrum but it's probably back to the former.

Miderun...is probably Lawful Neutral, and she sees Heroica as the Law. Traitors and broken oaths upset her just as much if not more than some outright Evil stuff and her response to most situations is "kill all the bad guys", but her definition of 'bad' is everyone who's not cooperative with her/Heroica.

[Asphalt]

Vindsval is clearly a Chaotic Evil psychopath bent on religious domination of the world, with an over developed need to protect children. They are the next generation of followers after all.

Obviously he views himself as a good "man." He has killed at least one innocent leaving an orphaned child. The fact that that haunts him proves the goodness part. But whether chaotic or neutral that is the question.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Asphalt

[Waterbrick Down]

Wondered when this topic was finally going to make it's way through Heroica. I think JimB said it best that trying to pin our characters down with a single label really does them an injustice. If you take a look at the careers of any character with more than two quests under their belt, you'd be hard pressed not to find examples of several of the alignments. We like using them to easily figure out how a character would respond in a situation, but ultimately if we're playing our characters as real personalities they're never going to line up to those suppositions nicely. People in real life are contradictory, we're born to forever be assuming the motives of others and reassuring our own. In the world of Heroica it's hard to say what is acceptable and what isn't because ultimately we've got a good variety of moral systems at work. For a brief example we've got the moral system of Ennoc and those of the Green Skin people in Baltarok, both have similarities in their moral systems but also a few vast differences and all of this is compounded by the moral systems that we each personally bring to the game. It's this conglomeration of real morality blended with the moralities of the game world that make things fuzzy and hard to sometimes meld together or neatly pin down. Ultimately, I think the game has worked so far because people have understood this tension, but lately as "moral" choices are having a bigger and bigger impact on the events of the game the tensions have grown as the consequences of those choices are coming into contact with time invested by other players who may have made different choices. It's a whole lot more complex and not one I'm sure, I'd like to dedicate myself to, but it's interesting seeing it finally being brought up.

For those of you who'd like a little label to put on Skrall, he's Neutral Good. As for Boris, well he definitely was lawful good, but I haven't figured out where he's landed since he became a vampire.

[StickFig]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but can anyone in Heroica truly be Lawful Good if they all boil down to sellswords? No one works for free.

Annienal's pretty Lawful Good.

Matthias is also Lawful Good. I think playing a Lawful Good character is actually really challenging and interesting in Heroica because as Guts ScubaCarrot said it's a mercenary organization, in a city with no laws. How can you be lawful good in a group like that?!

The thing I've had with Calamity, is that she just seems...rather spontaneous, and...rather forthputting about her stance. "Hi, everyone! I worship demons! Anyone want to summon one?"

That's the best thing about Calamity - it's great!

[Khorne]

The Wolfgang isn't evil though. They're more than likely chaotic neutral.

And for those looking to play evil characters, no. Just no. This is Heroica, not Evilica. The moment a character knows you're evil, you're done. No one has any reason to trust you, and there's no reason for any other character to not outright murder your character if they're good aligned. Hopefully this video helps explain this.

I agree with Kinto here, the Wolfgang isn't necessarily Evil. Barbaricca is, however. She's the part that makes people see the Wolfgang as Evil, but the organisation and its ideals in itself are rather "okay", I guess.

Hel, I feel like Eric (played by Khorne) is still the best example of a "contrary" character, just based on how he acted in the final battle of Quest 58--his character did not agree with the party's decision, but he participated anyway for the sake of not ruining their experience. He did apply his own restrictions to his participation, but they were reasonable ones that served as a good balance between his character's wants and what was best for the Quest overall.

Ironically, through a twist of fate, I still got Reno's blade after I passed up on receiving any loot from that battle . Like you said though, Heroica needs to be a fun experience for the entire group. It differs from say, The Witcher or Skyrim in that you're not alone in this world. You're not playing solo, you're in a team and everybody needs to have some fun. I want to tell my character's story and his personality will influence the choices he makes, but I don't want this to break the "fun" factor for my team mates.

I don't want to be a nice mercenary but I guess more of a Neutral one. The more I keep thinking about this, the more I feel I should just be a Neutral character. I know that if there's someone who asks for help, my first response would be something along the lines of "What's in it for me?".

I don't really understand what you're getting at with the whole "Evil character thing"... You want advice for Mhinak or are you thinking of starting over with a new character again? Turning Mhinak into some Evil kind of guy would be rather weird I think. I don't really get that vibe from him .

As for Eric, I wouldn't really know how to catalog him. Probably Chaotic Neutral, maybe even Neutral Evil. I don't know... He does usually only look out for himself and believes the world to revolve around him. On the other hand, he is guided somewhat by the codes, laws and traditions of his homeland. Eric's alignment is a somewhat less greedy and a bit more ordered version of Sarge's Chaotic Neutral . I also believe Eric to be somewhat more cultured and intellectual than Sarge, because of his noble background. Sarge does have streetsmarts though .

EDIT:

"If you keep to yourself and don't hurt anyone, I'll leave you to yourself to keep on not hurting anyone. If you do anything - anything - to hurt anyone in this group, I will do whatever - whatever - it takes, to stop you from continuing to hurt them."

Eric's approach here would be to leave Calamity to do whatever she wants. Eric's doesn't care if Calamity hurts anyone, as long as its not himself or someone close to him. A similar response to Sarge's, I guess, perhaps a bit more apathetic. I'd definitely phrase his response differently, though .

Eric shrugged and rolled his eyes. "Whatever. Do what you want. Just don't let your antics get in my way."

He says he doesn't care, but by labelling Calamity's demon-worshipping as "antics", he implies he thinks what she does is stupid. That's Eric being his arrogant self again. That's where he also differs from Sarge, he's somewhat more subtle.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Khorne

[Palathadric]

I call Docken's bluff. He's totally Lawful Evil.

And he hates it when people try to justify their actions with right and wrong or petty ideology.

How did he get along with Pretzel again, I wonder?

[Flipz]

You know, based on all this debate about the Wolfgang and their motivations, I really think that people are going to enjoy my Diana and Darius Quests in a few months.

I call Docken's bluff. He's totally Lawful Evil.

How did he get along with Pretzel again, I wonder?

Dunno. How the Hel do Arthur and Pretzel manage to get along?

[Sandy]

Ellaria is clearly Neutral Good. She has the best of everyone in her heart, and has been quite gullible and naive due to that. However, she is not really following any rules or regulations, since most of the worshippers of Sylvania are not an organized religion, and Sylvania is a feral goddess herself.

My second character, which I'm going to reveal very soon, is going to be Lawful Neutral. I wrote her backstory yesterday, and I'm already loving her. She's certainly nothing Heroica has seen before...

[Pyrovisionary]

Sarge likes Pretzel for their similarities in grumpiness, and greed.

Ironically, through a twist of fate, I still got Reno's blade after I passed up on receiving any loot from that battle

Pretzel got it from Atramor and Sarge got it from Pretzel. Sarge didn't really need it and Eric seemed to like Reno so...

Eric's alignment is a somewhat less greedy and a bit more ordered version of Sarge's Chaotic Neutral . I also believe Eric to be somewhat more cultured and intellectual than Sarge, because of his noble background. Sarge does have streetsmarts though .

He's definitely more intellectual, certainly in his vocabulary, witticisms and the way he treats others. He acts superior in a very subtle, refined way, and you To him excellently.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Pyrovisionary

[Palathadric]

Not to mention that Raider is awesome with a weapon that deals blinded. Any weapon that deals effects actually. Imagine lucky Eric with Scupperer.

[Enceladus]

My second character, which I'm going to reveal very soon, is going to be Lawful Neutral. I wrote her backstory yesterday, and I'm already loving her. She's certainly nothing Heroica has seen before...

Can't wait! Do you have any hints for us?

[Yzalirk]

I don't really understand what you're getting at with the whole "Evil character thing"... You want advice for Mhinak or are you thinking of starting over with a new character again? Turning Mhinak into some Evil kind of guy would be rather weird I think. I don't really get that vibe from him .

To keep it short, yes. However, that'll be my final character I will role with because the warrior play-style I think is more what I like rather than being squishy.

I took some time to think over how this character would be and, believe it or not, I did get some inspiration from Borderlands. Take the character Brick as example, he's destructive and a badass but at the same time, he seems more Neutral being a Vault Hunter and all but they do help the needy. I think that's pretty cool and he seems Chaotic Neutral if I had to guess. How could I achieve that without being completely evil or too good?

[Asphalt]

I think starting over again would be a poor decision. Talk with a QM when you are on the quest. Ask if they are willing to put in a little life altering event for your character. Perhaps they are hit particularly hard by a psychic blast, witness something particularly horrible that drives him past caring, recovers not quite right from being KOd, is infected with a horrible disease that makes the crazy doctor cut off his arm. Allow the attitude shift to have an in game impetus, people go from happy go lucky to homicidal all the time. Let your character develop. The QMs will be more than willing to work with you if you ask.

[Yzalirk]

Since it'll be my final re-do, I'm all I can for him to be perfect for me. I do think that it'll be much easier to let him develop over a course a time since he would be adjusting to Heroica, which is completely new to him. Attitudes are always adjustable, it mainly depends on the current situation. I've begone to work on a backstory for him since I do want to go in-depth this time for sure.

[Palathadric]

is infected with a horrible disease that makes the crazy doctor cut off his arm.

Let's not mention any names.

[Asphalt]

Just an example.

Since it'll be my final re-do, I'm all I can for him to be perfect for me. I do think that it'll be much easier to let him develop over a course a time since he would be adjusting to Heroica, which is completely new to him. Attitudes are always adjustable, it mainly depends on the current situation. I've begone to work on a backstory for him since I do want to go in-depth this time for sure.

And you do realize he just won one of the biggest accessories in the game right? Feel free to toss that Vindsval's way before you recycle him. :)

[Yzalirk]

And you do realize he just won one of the biggest accessories in the game right? Feel free to toss that Vindsval's way before you recycle him. :)

Never. Going. To. Happen.

I've asked someone to pass along some things to Mhinak's cousin when he does arrive to the hall.

[CMP]

I've asked someone to pass along some things to Mhinak's cousin when he does arrive to the hall.

I'm pretty certain you can't do that.