Heroica RPG - Expert Job Class Discussion

[JimBee]

That is no barrier at all. You should not get free stuff for doing nothing, I hate that attitude. And I think know there would actually be interest in the classes.

I apologize if my attitude makes you upset. And I didn't say there wouldn't be interest, I just expressed my disinterest.

[CMP]

I'd like to see it cost some GP, but it'd be fair enough if, like JimB said, there was no barrier but basic class, since even if you don't fulfill requirements for any other expert class, you still have a default.

[Scubacarrot]

I apologize if my attitude makes you upset. And I didn't say there wouldn't be interest, I just expressed my disinterest.

Not upset, no worries.

[Flare]

I like the high cleric.

[swils]

If the only barrier is getting to Level 30, then I think they should only be a direct upgrade from the basic class, almost exclusively an increase in numbers on Shield rolls, maybe some "Miss" changes. Definitely some bonus health/ether, but I'm not going to touch those here.

Barbarian v2: Shield: Deals damage to each equal to Level+2xWP. Miss: "Angry" Next attack will deal an additional +WP to each target after all other calculations.

Cleric v2: Shield: Heals Level+3xWP to all. Miss: Restores health to Cleric and one party member, 1 ether.

Knight v2: Shield: Can protect from magical damage as well. Miss: "Brace" Adds +1 SP for every 10 SP they have, rounded down, for the duration of the round.

Mage v2: Shield: Level+2xWP to all enemies. Miss: "Meditate"

Ranger v2: Shield: Shoots four (or five) times in succession. Miss: "Aim" becomes "Hit"

Rogue v2: Shield: Level+4xWP Miss: Steal

Just quick ideas, not a suggestion of final numbers or designs. But I think those would be good "free" upgrades to the BC's at Lv30 that would give the RP sense of "becoming a stronger version of myself." WIth the exception of the "Miss" rolls, nothing would infringe upon the specialties/flavor that any of the AC's or other EC's offer. They simply become slightly stronger versions of the basic classes.

Now, if there were to be a more demanding barrier to advancing to these six classes, I'd be fine with some more significant changes.

Barbarians - Attacks each enemy twice on shield roll and all other attacks hit two enemies. Could add to the risk/reward by making them suffer from "damage" and "special damage" from both targets.

Clerics - Increase amount healed and add the "remove negative effects from party" to Shield rolls, single target healing rolls now become dual-target casts (Each "Heal" roll can have two targets: can heal two party members, can heal one party member and damage one undead, can damage two undead)

Knights - Able to reflect some amount of damage they negate. Miss rolls can protect a single party member from damage.

Mages - Magic Burst hits harder. Crit Spell and Spell splash, also dealing their damage to the enemy before and the enemy after the initial target.

Rangers - Shield hits more enemies. Crit becomes Extra Crit, Hit becomes Crit, Miss becomes Hit.

Rogues - Miss becomes Steal. Mug steals double the amount of gold. Crit and Hit rolls steal gold equal to damage dealt.

In the above cases, there are some more significant changes made to the classes that really accentuate their strengths/traits. Barbarians and Mages are able to spread their damage around more. Clerics become more efficient at keeping their party alive, Knights become better at protecting the party. Rangers get better at single target damage. Rogues will be freaking rich. These are more significant changes while not breaking away from the feel of the basic class.

[CMP]

I don't think they should be tied to basic classes that directly, in my opinion.

Gladiator doesn't suit Barbarian to me (I'm reminded specifically of the murmillo gladiator, more of a knight than anything). I'd suggest an alternative name like Mercenary, Thug, Marauder, Brigand, something to that effect.

• Additional Health: +5
  
• Additional Power: +5
  
• Job Traits: Natural Respite: (See Barbarian), Combat Opportunity: Brigands gain an additional 5 power fighting in the front row, and an extra 5 maximum health in the back row, Physical Resistance: Brigands can use one turn to remove all negative effects from themselves, once per battle.
  
• Battle Style: Savage: Brigands use everything they can to crush their opponents.
  

1. SHIELD: Rage - The brigand goes into a battle craze, dealing damage to the enemy party equal to their weapon power added to their level. Additionally, each enemy has a 1/6 chance each to gain either the Weakened, Fragile, and Stunned effects.
   
2. EXTRA CRITICAL HIT - The brigand deals damage to the opponent equal to three times their weapon power added to their level.
   
3. CRITICAL HIT - The brigand deals damage to the opponent equal to twice their weapon power added to their level.
   
4. RESPITE - The brigand rests to recover health equal to half their level, rounded up.
   
5. DAMAGE - The brigand is struck by the opponent's attack.
   
6. SPECIAL DAMAGE - The brigand is struck by the opponent's special skill.
   

I like the ideas put up by Skyrimguy and Scuba, the name Crusader fits better in my opinion, personally. Or maybe something like Guardian, Cavalier, or Sentinel.

• Additional Health: +15
  
• Job Traits: Diplomacy: (See Knight), Initiative (See Paragon), Defender: Crusaders can protect themselves allies from danger outside of battle just as well as in, dependent upon their shield power. This is for stuff like traps, and most all damage outside of battle.
  
• Battle Style: Protective: Crusaders shield their allies from harm at all costs.
  

1. SHIELD: Holding the Line - The crusader rallies the party, protecting them from all damage and negative effects for the next round. Any damage and negative effects is reflected right back at the opponents instead, including Free Hits.
   
2. CRITICAL HIT/STRONG DEFEND - The crusaders deals damage to the opponent equal to two times their weapon power added to their level. Optionally, the crusader may defend an ally, drawing all attacks from the ally for duration of the current and the next round. The crusader gains shield power equal to twice his own plus his ally's.
   
3. HIT/DEFEND - The crusader deals damage to the opponent equal to their weapon power added to their level. Optionally, the crusader may defend an ally, drawing all attacks from the ally for duration of the current and the next round. The crusader gains shield power equal to his own plus his ally's.
   
4. DEFENDED COUNTER/WEAK DEFEND - The crusader is struck by the opponent's attack, but attacks right back with power equal to their weapon power only. The power of their shield decreases the effect of the attack. Optionally, the crusader may defend an ally, drawing all attacks from the ally for duration of the current and the next round. The crusader gains shield power equal to twice his own.
   
5. DEFENDED DAMAGE/NO DEFEND - The crusader is struck by the opponent's attack. The power of their shield decreases the effect of the attack. Optionally, any attempt of defense fails.
   
6. SPECIAL DAMAGE/NO DEFEND - The crusader is struck by the opponent's special skill. Optionally, any attempt of defense fails.
   

Thoughts? These are just suggestions, obviously.

Edited January 6, 2013 by CallMePie

[Palathadric]

Job Traits: Arc Healing: High clerics may heal their entire party outside of battle at the cost of 5 ether

I don't see this as being particularly useful. It's not often that there will be quests with more than a team of five, and even so it's not likely that all of them will need healing. Although, the benefit of healing all heroes in battle on just about any roll is certainly a useful one.

High Cleric is most certainly for me.

-snip-

Good Lord! That will be one "money-rich" rogue!!!

[CMP]

I suppose it would be easier just to have that trait being normal Healing, I just thought it'd balance out being able to heal all at once in battle.

[Flipz]

Love Brigand, hope that goes to Barbarian as-is. Not so sure on the "Crusader" (though I don't think Docken would like that term for them... ), it seems off for me. I'll take a look at it and see why.

I suppose it would be easier just to have that trait being normal Healing, I just thought it'd balance out being able to heal all at once in battle.

I like it; after all, there are often parties of 6 on Quests, and besides party members, there's also likely to be allied NPCs these days. Besides, it's a nice balancing mechanic.

[swils]

Good Lord! That will be one "money-rich" rogue!!!

Indeed, but that would be the draw. By staying a pure rogue, you give up all of the neat effects that the Rogue AC's offer: Assassination, AoE damage, Utility, etc. Gold generation is, arguably, the defining feature of the Rogue BC and this would emphasize that.

If the idea is to offer upgraded basic classes for the sake of players who, for RP reasons, don't care to go to any of the EC's, then I think they should stay as close as possible to the original class. It lets everyone achieve that feeling of advancement at the Lv30 tier without having to push aside their RP.

[JimBee]

I suppose it would be easier just to have that trait being normal Healing, I just thought it'd balance out being able to heal all at once in battle.

I do like the Arc Heal ability. It was pretty neat that Skuld had it in Quest 44, and it'd be more useful than regular healing at any rate. I think that if these Expert-Basic Classes are going to exist, they need to be powerful and unique.

Indeed, but that would be the draw. By staying a pure rogue, you give up all of the neat effects that the Rogue AC's offer: Assassination, AoE damage, Utility, etc. Gold generation is, arguably, the defining feature of the Rogue BC and this would emphasize that.

I think you might be underestimating the power of Mug - it's the only money-stealing ability that has not been nerfed to reflect enemy level instead of player WP+level. If I went back to basic Rogue now I'd be making way more money than as an Assassin, even without AoE. If you doubled that, we'd be looking at another Guts pre-Raider nerf.

[CMP]

That's where I got the idea. I always did like the Altar Girl class, I thought the party-wide healing was pretty badass.

I'm not sure on Crusader. I really like the Defend idea, but it's a big change to what should be just an advanced Knight, so I think it may be a bit too unique.

Knights are tanks, so I just wanted to emphasize that a bit more. It bothers me a little that the Pheles Rod is a better tank than any class is right now. It's not an overpowered weapon, just....there needs to be a mechanic to be able to protect allies more effectively, which is where the idea came from.

Edited January 6, 2013 by CallMePie

[Palathadric]

Would it be over-powered if the Cleric had a choice of whether to heal normally or to arc-heal in battle?

[swils]

I think you might be underestimating the power of Mug - it's the only money-stealing ability that has not been nerfed to reflect enemy level instead of player WP+level. If I went back to basic Rogue now I'd be making way more money than as an Assassin, even without AoE. If you doubled that, we'd be looking at another Guts pre-Raider nerf.

Not at all. It has the potential to generate huge amounts of gold per hit, I recognize that. But to refer to the change to the mechanics of other stealing abilities as a nerf? Much to learn, the imp has. Perhaps increasing the damage on Rogue's shield in addition to adding damage-to-gold-steal to rolls 2-4 was a bit much. As the gold steal is the rogue's "thing", that addition alone might negate the need for any damage increases.

Nerf... heh heh heh

[JimBee]

Not at all. It has the potential to generate huge amounts of gold per hit, I recognize that. But to refer to the change to the mechanics of other stealing abilities as a nerf? Much to learn, the imp has.

Nerf... heh heh heh

No matter what way you spin it, you're still gaining more gold with level+WP than enemy level. Yes, I know you have some convoluted strategy to gain ridiculous amounts of gold , but the reason why I warned against the Raider's shield skill is exactly what we saw with Guts in Quest 39. It's Mug plus AoE, unlike the Sorcerer's Assassin's shield skills which haven't caused a problem (or, as big of one).

[CMP]

Maybe (for a gold-stealing class, possibly this new expert Rogue) a 1/6 chance (unaffected by lucky) on a Shield, Criticals, and normal Hits to steal gold equal to damage dealt?

Edited January 6, 2013 by CallMePie

[swils]

I wholeheartedly agree that you're gaining more gold per roll with a rogue's mug than anyone else's. Before the change, the Raider's shield was definitely the best option for generating gold in any ordinary situation and I think it was a good change; Raiders were just way too appealing.

The chance to steal could be a good direction. I'd say keep Rogue v2's shield stealing as a guaranteed thing, and make it a 2/6 chance to steal on rolls of 2 or 3. That'd spread the flavor around without guaranteeing a huge income, I like it.

[CMP]

So maybe something like this? Ninja, I think, is too unique a name for it. Thief seems more...Rogueish to me. Ironically a lot of this was taken from a class called Ninja I was toying with.

• Additional Health: +7
  
• Job Traits: Flee: (See Rogue), Stealth: Thieves can sneak quite effectively outside of combat. If undetected while the party enters combat, the thief gains the Lucky effect until a Shield is rolled, Looter: Thieves have a natural tendency to find more treasure when searching containers or digging.
  
• Battle Style: Lecherous: Thieves are determined to leech all the gold they can from their opponents before defeating them.
  

1. SHIELD: Rob them Blind - The thief attacks the opponent 1-6 times (decided by a dice roll) with power equal to their weapon power added to their level. Each strike has a 1/2 chance of stealing gold equal to damage dealt. The opponent is then Blinded for three rounds.
   
2. GREEDY CRITICAL HIT - The thief deals damage to the opponent equal to two times their weapon power added to their level. The thief has a 1/6 chance to steal gold equal to damage dealt.
   
3. GREEDY HIT - The thief deals damage to the opponent equal to their weapon power added to their level. The thief has a 1/6 chance to steal gold equal to damage dealt.
   
4. STEAL - The thief steals gold equal to the opponent's level.
   
5. DAMAGE - The thief is struck by the opponent's attack.
   
6. SPECIAL DAMAGE - The thief is struck by the opponent's special skill.
   

Edited January 7, 2013 by CallMePie

[swils]

Actually, yeah, I like the looks of that. Well played, CMP, well played.

[Flipz]

How about we just let Pie design all the Expert Classes from now on?

I jest, but seriously, that's very nice, I like it a lot. Can't wait for your Mage concept!

[Palathadric]

Now the only thing is to find a way to become a thief.

[Sandy]

These are some fine suggestions, guys, I'll be sure to take them into account when I plan for these classes further.

I'd still like to keep the names of the original basic classes as part of the names for these advanced versions, though, so maybe they could be:

Barbarian Mauler

High Cleric

Guardian Knight

Archmage

Forest Ranger

Rogue Thief

[Fred Daniel Yam]

These are some fine suggestions, guys, I'll be sure to take them into account when I plan for these classes further.

I'd still like to keep the names of the original basic classes as part of the names for these advanced versions, though, so maybe they could be:

Barbarian Mauler

High Cleric

Guardian Knight

Archmage

Forest Ranger

Rogue Thief

Personally, I think some of those are a bit..... pointless? "Rogue Thief" in particular...

Suggestions:

Barbarian Chieftain

Hieratical Cleric

Guardian Knight (This one is awesomely named already )

Spellbinder Archmage

Nightshade Rogue

Quickdraw Ranger

[UsernameMDM]

I'd still like to keep the names of the original basic classes as part of the names for these advanced versions, though, so maybe they could be:

Barbarian Mauler

High Cleric

Guardian Knight

Archmage

Forest Ranger

Rogue Thief

How about a more uniform name system (adjective + class name). Here are my suggestions plus alternate adjective:

Savage Barbarian (Brutal, Ferocious, Fierce)

Pious Cleric (Devout, Reverent, Zealous)

Gallant Knight​ (Courageous, Heroic, Lionhearted, Valiant)

Elder Mage (Studious, Wizened)

Rugged Ranger (Interpid, Resolute, Stalwart, Venturous)

Daring Rogue (Filching, Pilfering, Smug, Swaggering)

[Scorpiox]

Personally, I think some of those are a bit..... pointless? "Rogue Thief" in particular...

Suggestions:

Barbarian Chieftain

Hieratical Cleric

Guardian Knight (This one is awesomely named already )

Spellbinder Archmage

Nightshade Rogue

Quickdraw Ranger

How about:

Barbarian Brute

High Cleric

Guardian Knight

Archmage

Ranger Scout

Rogue Bandit

Sound good?