Heroica RPG - Expert Job Class Discussion

[Flare]

For the Ranger v2 it should be Master Ranger

[TheBoyWonder]

I think Rogue Shadow sounds better.

[swils]

The names should reflect the advantage/strength being amplified. In the case of a rogue focused on stealing more gold, "Greedy Rogue" would be fitting (though it might not sound very intimidating). A Knight focused on taking less damage could be a "Stalwart Knight" while a Ranger might be a "Deadly Ranger" if the class' focus is high single target damage. Etc, etc.

[CMP]

I like those names a lot better.

[Wedge09]

To me Scorpiox's names seems very good . Maybe Scout Ranger??

[swils]

To me, "Scout Ranger" would imply the ability to, quite literally, scout ahead, or perhaps be very agile. I would expect a "Scout Ranger" to have the ability to either see enemy stats ahead of time like some artifacts allow you to do, or to have some chance of evasion on rolls of 5 and 6. Or perhaps they'd apply an "Expose Weakness" type debuff to an enemy that allows their team to do amplified damage, perhaps because they scouted ahead and provided valuable intel, so to speak.

[Flipz]

How about:

Barbarian Brute

High Cleric

Guardian Knight

Archmage

Ranger Scout

Rogue Bandit

Sound good?

I love these, though I slightly prefer Swils' "Stalwart Knight", I just really like the ring of it.

EDIT: though now that I say it aloud, I prefer "Scout Ranger" over "Ranger Scout".

Edited January 7, 2013 by Flipz

[Palathadric]

I think the High Cleric, Archmage, and Guardian Knight are all pretty good, some ideas for the others are:

Barbarian Berserker or Berserk Barbarian

I don't actually mind "Forest Ranger" tremendously (of course, you could always put "Forestman Ranger" )

For Rogue I was actually going for something more like "Master Stealer" or something, but what about

Certified Rogue?

Even Rogue Bandit is pretty decent though.

[CMP]

I like a lot of the ideas for Forest Ranger.

• Additional Health: +5
  
• Job Traits: Animal Talk: (See Ranger), Track Down: (See Assassin/Hunter), Eagle Eye: Forest Rangers can spot things from afar, and are especially good at discerning an enemy's stats before a battle even begins.
  
• Battle Style: Swift: Forest Rangers are best at quick, long range attacks to avoid drawing attention.
  

1. SHIELD: From The Trees - The forest ranger rains arrows down on the target and the enemies before and after it. Each one takes damage equal to twice the forest ranger's weapon power added to their level, and is inflicted with the Confused effect. The forest ranger then hides, avoiding any action that comes their way for the remainder of the round.
   
2. CRITICAL HIT - The forest ranger deals damage to the opponent equal to twice their weapon power added to their level.
   
3. HIT - The forest ranger deals damage to the opponent equal to their weapon power added to their level.
   
4. SPOT - The forest ranger marks a target. Next round, that target will take triple damage.
   
5. DAMAGE - The forest ranger is struck by the opponent's attack.
   
6. SPECIAL DODGE - The forest ranger has a 50/50 chance for the opponent's special skill to instead hit the next hero in the battle order.
   

• Additional Health: +3
  
• Additional Ether: +8
  
• Job Traits: Spellcasting: (See Mage), Mystic Respite: The archmage gains 5 ether at the end of every battle, Glossolalia: (See Prophet)
  
• Battle Style: Magnificent: The archmage has become highly attuned to the power of ether.
  

1. SHIELD: Chain Spell - The archmage unleashes a powerful spell that rebounds through 2-12 targets, dealing elemental damage to each one equal to their weapon power added to their level. If the target roll is higher than the number of opponents, each opponent can receive multiple strikes. If no element was selected, a random one available to the archmage will be chosen. The archmage draws power from the targets, doubling their current ether that does not exceed the maximum value.
   
2. CRITICAL HIT/GREAT SPELL - The archmage deals damage to the opponent equal to twice their weapon power added to their level. Optionally, the archmage casts an elemental spell with the same strength at the cost of 1 ether.
   
3. HIT/SPELL - The archmage deals damage to the opponent equal to their weapon power added to their level. Optionally, the archmage casts an elemental spell with the same strength at the cost of 1 ether.
   
   
4. QUINTESSENCE - The archmage manipulates the very being of the target, giving them the option to switch out one of the target's current types for another at the cost of 10 ether.
   
   
5. DAMAGE - The archmage is struck by the opponent's attack.
   
   
6. SPECIAL MIRROR - The archmage is struck by the opponent's special skill, but reflects it right back to cause the same effect.
   

I think a lot of advanced mages miss the AoE of Magic Burst. I figure this was a reasonable solution that also balances out the lack of any Meditation and ether burn of Quintessence. And I really want to see Special Mirror some more, I thought it fit fairly well here. Any thoughts on these?

Edited January 7, 2013 by CallMePie

[swils]

From the Forest Ranger, " SPOT - The forest ranger marks a target. Next round, that target will take triple damage." , nice implementation of an expose weakness effect. I'm not sure how "Forest" fits in, other than the idea of a nimble scout navigating a dense forest with ease (and, of course, the naming of the rolls). "Recon Ranger" maybe? If you couldn't tell, I really like the idea of making the name describe the draw Ignore that, I realize that the idea behind the Shield roll is a hail of arrows coming from the treetops, leaving the victims confused as to where it came from. I approve!

I feel like doubling the Archmage's current ether will leave them in a state of limitless ether, unless they suffer a series of really unfortunate rolls, or the QM has methods in place to strike at their ether supply. I'd tone it down a fair bit, maybe just restore 1 ether for every 2 enemies hit. As for the "Miss" roll, I'd suggest the ability to apply an elemental weakness of the AM's choice, rather than changing the type. It wouldn't quite make sense for a Bird to change from Flying to a Rock, after all, heh. I'd make the weakness last for 3 rounds, too.

Other than that, I like the way you think, Pie. I'm torn on whether or not there should be more requirements than simply hitting 30 if the classes follow a similar direction as the one's you're tossing out, as they add some serious benefits to the abilities of the basic classes and would make basic classes near obsolete. On the other hand, Basic Classes would essentially be non-existent for players past 30 even if the "Expert-Basic Classes" only offered flat numbers advantages, as there would be no reason nor advantage to not just advance to the EC for your class.

[Palathadric]

Witches are half Cleric. Special Mirror should be for the High Cleric not the Archmage...please?

[CMP]

I feel like doubling the Archmage's current ether will leave them in a state of limitless ether, unless they suffer a series of really unfortunate rolls, or the QM has methods in place to strike at their ether supply. I'd tone it down a fair bit, maybe just restore 1 ether for every 2 enemies hit. As for the "Miss" roll, I'd suggest the ability to apply an elemental weakness of the AM's choice, rather than changing the type. It wouldn't quite make sense for a Bird to change from Flying to a Rock, after all, heh. I'd make the weakness last for 3 rounds, too.

The thing is, look at Cinna and Hoke. They're both Mystic Knights, and the ether burn of Enchantment seriously hampers their spellcasting ability. Archmages are just advancement of the weak, squishy Mages, they don't have the shields and health bonus of Knights to keep them alive even after they run out of ether. I like your idea, though. Maybe 1 ether restored for every enemy hit?

The main reason I did that is so that it'd be easier to keep track of and it wouldn't be too overpowered, since all types still have resistances. And it's messing with the essence of the target, not its actual physical form.

Other than that, I like the way you think, Pie. I'm torn on whether or not there should be more requirements than simply hitting 30 if the classes follow a similar direction as the one's you're tossing out, as they add some serious benefits to the abilities of the basic classes and would make basic classes near obsolete. On the other hand, Basic Classes would essentially be non-existent for players past 30 even if the "Expert-Basic Classes" only offered flat numbers advantages, as there would be no reason nor advantage to not just advance to the EC for your class.

Well, the whole idea of having advancement of basic classes as expert classes seems to be to continue the progression of them, the complete opposite of what I brought up the other day in the R&D. It'd only make sense it's so much stronger than the regular basics.

Maybe you have to complete a certain number of quests, in addition to the basic class barrier?

Witches are half Cleric. Special Mirror should be for the High Cleric not the Archmage...please?

Special Guard is more Clericy, though.

[Flipz]

• Additional Health: +3
  
• Additional Ether: +8
  
• Job Traits: Spellcasting: (See Mage), Mystic Respite: The archmage gains 5 ether at the end of every battle, Glossolalia: (See Prophet)
  
• Battle Style: Magnificent: The archmage has become highly attuned to the power of ether.
  

1. SHIELD: Chain Spell - The archmage unleashes a powerful spell that rebounds through 2-12 targets, dealing elemental damage to each one equal to their weapon power added to their level. If the target roll is higher than the number of opponents, each opponent can receive multiple strikes. If no element was selected, a random one available to the archmage will be chosen. The archmage draws power from the targets, doubling their current ether that does not exceed the maximum value.
   
2. CRITICAL HIT/GREAT SPELL - The archmage deals damage to the opponent equal to twice their weapon power added to their level. Optionally, the archmage casts an elemental spell with the same strength at the cost of 1 ether.
   
3. HIT/SPELL - The archmage deals damage to the opponent equal to their weapon power added to their level. Optionally, the archmage casts an elemental spell with the same strength at the cost of 1 ether.
   
   
4. QUINTESSENCE - The archmage manipulates the very being of the target, giving them the option to switch out one of the target's current types for another at the cost of 10 ether.
   
   
5. DAMAGE - The archmage is struck by the opponent's attack.
   
   
6. SPECIAL MIRROR - The archmage is struck by the opponent's special skill, but reflects it right back to cause the same effect.
   

I think a lot of advanced mages miss the AoE of Magic Burst. I figure this was a reasonable solution that also balances out the lack of any Meditation and ether burn of Quintessence. And I really want to see Special Mirror some more, I thought it fit fairly well here. Any thoughts on these?

Yes, the only reason I don't miss the AoE of Magic Burst is that I could never seem to roll it until there was only one enemy left. I would agree with the reduced Ether-gain (1 Ether per enemy hit) on the Shield, that keeps the full Ether-charge limited to the Chi Monk.

I also including Special Mirror, it's great to see that on something a bit more "mainstream." Don't get me wrong, Witches are awesome, but it's a very specific choice in terms of character (not to mention that by nature it's a semi-unlikely choice for both Clerics and Rogues, if they're seeking to continue the party roles they already have). Aside from Atramor, there's literally one other character I've seen that could pull it off well (Nerwen), so by extension it's uncommon for us to see Special Mirror in action. And seeing Special Mirror in action is a lot of fun.

The thing is, look at Cinna and Hoke. They're both Mystic Knights, and the ether burn of Enchantment seriously hampers their spellcasting ability. Archmages are just advancement of the weak, squishy Mages, they don't have the shields and health bonus of Knights to keep them alive even after they run out of ether. I like your idea, though. Maybe 1 ether restored for every enemy hit?

The main reason I did that is so that it'd be easier to keep track of and it wouldn't be too overpowered, since all types still have resistances. And it's messing with the essence of the target, not its actual physical form.

Maybe you have to complete a certain number of quests, in addition to the basic class barrier?

Yes, I like all of these ideas; they seem to fit really nicely. I really like it for Arthur, though roleplaying-wise it may be difficult to send him in (then again, with his current path...)

Edited January 7, 2013 by Flipz

[JimBee]

Nice ideas, Pie. I think the Archmage's shield that you suggested is very similar if not identical to that of the Mystic Knight.

While I'm at it, I figured I should suggest some names for the classes, even though it's what matters the least. I just think having the basic class name in the expert class name will often sound awkward. Besides, the names will be memorized quickly.

Brute, Juggernaut (although I think a seperate EC was in the works for that)

Guardian

Warlock (Archmage sounds good, too)

Priest, High Priest (or High Cleric if we're avoiding the use of the term "priest")

Archer, Marksman

Thief (Greedy Rogue or Thief Rogue sound awkward to me)

[swils]

Well, megablocks. I was almost finished typing when my laptop BSoD'ed on me.

Itemized second attempt:

1) I've got no problem with E-BC's outclassing BC's. I'd just like to see more cost to it. I liked the Fields idea, though maybe lower the points cost or change the requirement (clear a camp in one of the expanded zones, perhaps). I believe it was Sandy who said that other EC's require specific quests, so why should these be different, and I agree with that sentiment.

2) Aside from scroll use, no other mage suffers from the ether-starvation that MK's face. Every other mage class expends at most 1 ether per class-action. At 1 ether per enemy hit, an Archmage would essentially get two free casts after each Shield and that's at a bare minimum. I think that's just too much staying power, especially if you consider a lucky mage (not that classes should necessarily be balanced around their potential after positive effects). Plus, you're looking at the equivalent of 6 to 36 gold generated(saved) per shield roll (or 4-24 if you reference Grand Tonic).

2a) It does seem like a stronger Mystic Knight shield roll due to the ether restoration. Maybe limit it to a single die, so it hits between 1 and 6 times and then generates 1 ether per hit?

3) I think it would be easier to just attach a "Weak to [Element]" in the corresponding color, but that's just me. I can see the argument for resistances, though, so maybe your way is better.

4) Names. Yeah, "[Adjective]+[basic Class Name]" can be an awkward set up. I was just suggesting in that format, though, as Sandy expressed interest in keeping the BC name in the EC's name.

[Flipz]

2) Aside from scroll use, no other mage suffers from the ether-starvation that MK's face. Every other mage class expends at most 1 ether per class-action. At 1 ether per enemy hit, an Archmage would essentially get two free casts after each Shield and that's at a bare minimum. I think that's just too much staying power, especially if you consider a lucky mage (not that classes should necessarily be balanced around their potential after positive effects). Plus, you're looking at the equivalent of 6 to 36 gold generated(saved) per shield roll (or 4-24 if you reference Grand Tonic).

2a) It does seem like a stronger Mystic Knight shield roll due to the ether restoration. Maybe limit it to a single die, so it hits between 1 and 6 times and then generates 1 ether per hit?

2.) The "Miss" roll costs 10 Ether, non-Cleric/mages seem to forget just how much that hurts, even for Advanced Classes. Let's also not forget that Chi Monks (an official Expert Class) have a Shield that restores all Ether and removes negative effects and applies special effects. The ECs are most definitely in a higher tier of play than the ACs, just as the ACs are a higher tier than the Basics; yes, the two can (and do) play well together, but for the most part the higher-tier classes do outclass the lower ones.

Also remember that, aside from Sorcerers, most mages have issues with cash flow, thanks to the need for Tonics and the like sapping income (not to mention upgrades to essential gear and/or purchasing Artifacts that fit them well); non-Tonic consumables are generally in somewhat shorter supply until quite some time into the class.

2a) MK has a great SHIELD roll that's easy for QMs to calculate. MK's still get the advantages of a shield and of Enchantment. Keep in mind, AoE is one of the things basic Mages get that the majority of AC mages don't.

[swils]

D'oh, I entirely missed the 10 ether cost on the "Miss" roll. Point conceded.

[Pandora]

Elder Mage (Studious, Wizened)

I can see a lot of mages (Nyx included) really not wanting to be called "Elder" and viewed as "wizened".

I think a lot of advanced mages miss the AoE of Magic Burst. I figure this was a reasonable solution that also balances out the lack of any Meditation and ether burn of Quintessence. And I really want to see Special Mirror some more, I thought it fit fairly well here. Any thoughts on these?

I really like your suggestions Pie. Yes, I really miss my AoE attack, and adding something in for that is great, as is the Magic Respite (although if Barbarians can regain all health at the end of a battle, then Expert Mages should certainly regain all Ether.)

I think there is perhaps scope for adding in Magic Resistance for Expert Mages, say 50% or even 100% for a selected favoured element? Or perhaps selecting a favourite element (once) and having zero Ether cost for that element? (I know that runs the risk of everyone choosing Darkness.)

Expert Mages should be people who have greater affinity for magic which would imply greater damage from spells, greater chance of success with spells, greater resistance from magic and reduced Ether cost one way or another. The Mage Expert Class doesn't have to be all those things to the max, or even all those things together, they are just suggestions from another Mage's perspective.

[CMP]

Reduced ether cost can't really be done, spells only cost 1 ether already.

Favored gem could be an interesting idea. Maybe you take half damage from that element and deal double damage with it? Seems simple enough to me, but it might be a bit overpowered.

[UsernameMDM]

I can see a lot of mages (Nyx included) really not wanting to be called "Elder" and viewed as "wizened".

Adept, Proficient, Savvy, Versed...

[Pandora]

Reduced ether cost can't really be done, spells only cost 1 ether already.

I meant through a variety of ways, so the chance of a spell not costing any Ether depending on a subsequent roll of the dice (50% for example) or some other means.

Favored gem could be an interesting idea. Maybe you take half damage from that element and deal double damage with it? Seems simple enough to me, but it might be a bit overpowered.

I do really like this, but I can see so many people straight-up favouring Darkness, after all it would make the most sense. That decision could be written into anyone's roleplay, even Nyx's despite her always being very much a fire mage.

Adept, Proficient, Savvy, Versed...

Much better words!

[UsernameMDM]

Much better words!

Vixen...

[Palathadric]

I don't know how useful "QUINTESSENCE" will be, because by the time Mages become "Archmages" or whatever, they really should have just about every gem in the book. Well, maybe not every gem, but most of them.

I think replenishing double ether for the mage on shield rolls sounds quite over-powered. That means there's a good change that once in six rounds of battle, they will receive double ether, which, assuming they receive different numbers every round of battle, they will be always bouncing up to full ether. The High Cleric expends five ether every time he heals, and has no option of getting his ether restored, except by using consumables.

Of course, Mages will more or less be using ether for every attack, but still...

[Flipz]

I don't know how useful "QUINTESSENCE" will be, because by the time Mages become "Archmages" or whatever, they really should have just about every gem in the book. Well, maybe not every gem, but most of them.

I think replenishing double ether for the mage on shield rolls sounds quite over-powered. That means there's a good change that once in six rounds of battle, they will receive double ether, which, assuming they receive different numbers every round of battle, they will be always bouncing up to full ether. The High Cleric expends five ether every time he heals, and has no option of getting his ether restored, except by using consumables.

Of course, Mages will more or less be using ether for every attack, but still...

The High Cleric is aimed more for offense anyway, tho; it's not about healing every injured party member, but healing the whole party at once. though now I think of it, 5 ether sounds a little high, I'd say about 3-4 would be better (give a slight return on investment vs. other healing classes).

Quintessence could be VERY useful in party situations; i.e. changing Firey to Beast if the hard-hitter's best weapon is Fire-imbued, changing an enemy type to a Hunter's favored type, changing Undead to humanoid or something else so that non-elemental weapons can affect it...etc. (And that utility DOES come at a high cost, both Ether-wise and in being able to rely on it.

[Palathadric]

Ah, that's true. I didn't realize it would effect the enemy for all the party members for some reason.