Heroica RPG - Expert Job Class Discussion

[Brickdoctor]

Remember that we are talking about how the Artisan could use the pickaxe here. Skillful as they might be, I don't think even an Artisan could use a pickaxe for that.

Just call the Shield "MacGyverism".

I see your point. A small amount of Gold would be suitable as something you mine with a Pickaxe, I think.

[Flare]

Lets just leave it and see if problems actually come up if anyone ever actually becomes an Artisan.

[Palathadric]

By the way, The Art of War.

I've actually read that book.

[PsyKater]

Just saw and I like it a lot. Okay, I didn't look mechanical-wise.

[Waterbrick Down]

In the style of Dragoon, but with more emphasis on buffing the party and dealing with more basic troop enemies.

(Requires Cavalier's Saddle)

Cavaliers rush into battle atop their mighty steeds inspiring their party to further glory.

Health Bonus: +14

Weapons: Lances, Great Swords, Long Swords, Hammers, Maces

Job Traits: Mounted – Cavaliers are permanently hastened; Extended Reach* – Cavaliers may strike enemies in the back row with full strength; Animal Talk (See Ranger)

Battle style: Overpowering: Cavaliers dole out piercing blows foiling even the most thorough of enemy defenses and tactics.

1. SHIELD: Heroic Charge – The Cavalier leads the party in a routing of the enemy forces dealing damage equal to two times their weapon power plus their level that ignores SP to all enemies in the target’s row*. Additionally the party member immediately after the Cavalier is guaranteed to roll a SHIELD(s), the following party member a CRITICAL HIT(s) (or equivalent), and the following party member a HIT(s) (or equivalent).

2. CRITICAL INTREPID HIT/ INVIGORATING SPEECH: The Cavalier does damage with strength equal to two times their weapon power plus their level that ignores SP. Alternatively the Cavalier can give an invigorating speech increasing their and each party member below and above them in them in the battle order Level, HP, and SP by 15 during the next round.

3. INTREPID HIT/ROUSING SPEECH: The Cavalier does damage with strength equal to their weapon power plus their level that ignores SP. Alternatively the Cavalier can give a rousing speech increasing their and each party member below and above them in the battle order Level, HP, and SP by 10 during the next round.

4. INTREPID COUNTER/GALLANT SPEECH: The Cavalier is struck by the opponent’s attack but counters with an attack that does damage with strength equal to their weapon power plus their level that ignores SP. Alternatively the Cavalier is struck by the opponents attack and gives a gallant speech increasing their and each party member below and above them in the battle order Level, HP, and SP by 5 during the next round.

5. DAMAGE: The Cavalier is struck by the opponent's attack.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE: The Cavalier is struck by the opponent’s special attack.

*Assumes a ruling is made in which enemies can occupy the back row.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Waterbrick Down

[CMP]

Gaah, did you read my mind when I mentioned that class yesterday? I suppose besides the name and the idea of buffing they're fairly different, though. I was toying with the idea of a mounted class but assumed it'd be pointless since everyone would choose Dragoon over it, but giving both the mounted concept and the buffing feature to the same class is an interesting solution.

That said....I think it's too powerful. Ignoring row and defense is one thing, but on a class that's already permanently hastened, that's way too much damage. And that shield is just....damn. Every single member of the party deals a Critical Hit that ignores defense to every single member of the enemy party, and the next three party members get guaranteed rolls? That's both complicated and really overpowered.

I would drop the SP piercing, for one. Heroic Charge needs to be changed into something else completely, I think manipulating rolls is just too powerful, as is the damage inflicted.

It's a great idea for a class, though. Just needs a bit more balancing work.

Edited July 25, 2013 by CallMePie

[Flare]

I like it a lot, although I feel it is OP - the shield and speeches seem to make the class too powerful considering he can already ignore SP and row. All in all I think it is a well thought out class that I would love to have a character as - it just needs a little bit of tweaking.

Oh, and its always hastened?! Yeah, way OP

[Waterbrick Down]

Gaah, did you read my mind when I mentioned that class yesterday? I suppose besides the name and the idea of buffing they're fairly different, though. I was toying with the idea of a mounted class but assumed it'd be pointless since everyone would choose Dragoon over it, but giving both the mounted concept and the buffing feature to the same class is an interesting solution.

As far as coolness factor Dragoons are high on the list, however they only get dragons, but maybe someone wants to use a wolf as a mount, or a unicorn, or a griffin, Cavalier is the class for them. As far as party roles, Cavalier is designed to take more of a leader role rather than a striker role, like the Dragoon.

That said....I think it's too powerful. Ignoring row and defense is one thing, but on a class that's already permanently hastened, that's way too much damage. And that shield is just....damn. Every single member of the party deals a Critical Hit that ignores defense to every single member of the enemy party, and the next three party members get guaranteed rolls? That's both complicated and really overpowered.

Perhaps I'll drop the row ignoring, however I'd like to keep the SP ignoring as there generally isn't many SP enemies in an average fight. Alternatively, perhaps the Hit and Critical Hit will, be more of an AoE targeting the target and another enemy in the same row. If that's the case, I'll drop the permanent hastened.

I would drop the SP piercing, for one. Heroic Charge needs to be changed into something else completely, I think manipulating rolls is just too powerful, as is the damage inflicted.

It's a great idea for a class, though. Just needs a bit more balancing work.

On the subject of Heroic Charge, only the Cavalier does damage to all enemies in the same row ignoring SP, which compared to another class's Shield roll, like Black Knight, which ignores SP and does 6 times WP, is pretty comparable in my opinion. So the way it works is this:

Cavalier: Heroic Charge - WPx2+Level ignoring SP against all enemies in the target's row

Party Member A: SHIELD Roll

Party Member B: CRITICAL HIT Roll

Party Member C: HIT Roll

Considering that a level 60 Dragoon allows every party member to perform a HIT against an enemy, I think it's pretty comparable.

I'd also disagree on the manipulative battle rolls, I think it's one area that could really be utilized more as far as a party buff. An alternative idea to the current Heroic Charage is to improve all following Party Member's die rolls by one stage (i.e. HIT -> CRITICAL HIT, etc.)

I like it a lot, although I feel it is OP - the shield and speeches seem to make the class too powerful considering he can already ignore SP and row. All in all I think it is a well thought out class that I would love to have a character as - it just needs a little bit of tweaking.

Oh, and its always hastened?! Yeah, way OP

I'm keeping the speeches as I'd really like to see more support classes. The thing with support classes is that you have to make their support more appealing than or at least on par with a normal attack. Why waste a round buffing someone else's attack by 10 more damage when you could attack and do 6x as much damage as the bonus.

Out of all the attack modifiers, I'd say hastened might be the least powerful. Sure you get another turn, but it's at the risk of taking DAMAGE/SPECIAL DAMAGE (in the Cavalier's case damage on a MISS roll) another time and taking more free hits than other party members. Not quite as OP as I feel some people believe. As an alternative perhaps, the Cavalier becomes hastened after a Heroic Charge is performed.

[UsernameMDM]

1. SHIELD: Heroic Charge – The Cavalier leads the party in a routing of the enemy forces dealing damage equal to two times their weapon power plus their level that ignores SP to all enemies in the target’s row* The Cavalier's mount deals the Trampled effect to the enemies in the target's row. Trampled: Stunned , Weakened and Slowed. Additionally if the party member immediately after the Cavalier rolls DAMAGE or SPECIAL DAMAGE to a target on the affected row, it is instead changed to a HIT.

My suggested change.

Edited July 25, 2013 by UsernameMDM

[Jebediahs]

I like the SHIELD roll. It will allow parties to choose between ordering the party actions to absorb free hits best or deal damage best (if they're lucky the order will be the same for both). I can see the enemy being surprised by a mounted warrior and open to attack from his comrades that follow. Makes sense to me.

Due to the class's inability to use shields, the their potential SP will be a lot lower making permanently hastened very dangerous for the Cavalier. More opportunity to take damage, special damage and free hits like you said.

[CMP]

Perhaps I'll drop the row ignoring, however I'd like to keep the SP ignoring as there generally isn't many SP enemies in an average fight. Alternatively, perhaps the Hit and Critical Hit will, be more of an AoE targeting the target and another enemy in the same row. If that's the case, I'll drop the permanent hastened.

I think ignoring row makes more sense logically than SP, but SP piercing will probably be more useful. Do you mean the Cavalier would permanently deal dual hits? I think that's plenty more fair.

On the subject of Heroic Charge, only the Cavalier does damage to all enemies in the same row ignoring SP, which compared to another class's Shield roll, like Black Knight, which ignores SP and does 6 times WP, is pretty comparable in my opinion. So the way it works is this:

Cavalier: Heroic Charge - WPx2+Level ignoring SP against all enemies in the target's row

Party Member A: SHIELD Roll

Party Member B: CRITICAL HIT Roll

Party Member C: HIT Roll

Considering that a level 60 Dragoon allows every party member to perform a HIT against an enemy, I think it's pretty comparable.

I'd also disagree on the manipulative battle rolls, I think it's one area that could really be utilized more as far as a party buff. An alternative idea to the current Heroic Charage is to improve all following Party Member's die rolls by one stage (i.e. HIT -> CRITICAL HIT, etc.)

I still think a Critical Hit to every enemy is a bit too much, especially when considering the buffing. I think they should at least be dropped to regular Hits. And I think reducing a number from the next roll makes more sense. Honestly you just inspired the entire concept of another Expert class for me with this.

[Flare]

I think ignoring row makes more sense logically than SP, but SP piercing will probably be more useful. Do you mean the Cavalier would permanently deal dual hits? I think that's plenty more fair.

What if the cavalier would permanently deal dual hits, and he used a dual strike weapon That could get confusing

[Cutcobra]

Wait, Heckz can ride giant chicken in battle?

[Sandy]

Here's the finalized version of the Artisan. Thank you for all of your feedback, it really helped me to make this job class balanced.

[LordoftheNoobs]

Sandy, it might be the alcohol in me talking right now, but I think I love you after this whole Artisan thing.

[Palathadric]

Wow! Artisan is a class that Pretzel could actually do. Finally he can get gold in battle without pricking his conscience that he's stealing it from someone. The weapons are right up my alley as well.

[CMP]

For the month of the Second Anniversary I'm going to (try) and post a new Expert Class each day. I have a ton of ideas for them, some at least a few months old, so I thought it'd be fun just to get them all out there and maybe serve as inspiration for future classes.

First off, the Captain. It was originally called Cavalier, but the name's honestly more suited to WBD's class idea than mine, though they share the same idea - a knight-esque support warrior who buffs allies but is also effective in dealing damage of their own. Give credit for the Shield concept to Endgame, which changed drastically from what it was once I saw his Luosh Guard class in Quest 48. The idea was just perfectly suited here.

CAPTAIN

These gallant warriors focus their strength on enhancing their allies in battle.

· Additional Health: +13

· Weapons: Captains wield prominent weapons like greatswords, halberds, lances, maces, hammers, and axes.

· Job Traits: Diplomacy (See Knight), Battle Cry – Instead of attacking, Captains can choose to bolster an ally, but only in the heat of battle, Initiative (See Paragon)

· Battle Style: Valiant: Captains can boost their allies’ morale.

1. SHIELD:

Call to Arms:

The captain leads the party into a charge, dealing damage to the target equal to the entire party’s weapon power added together multiplied by the number of positive effects they all have. ((WP: 10 (Party Member 1) + WP: 15 (Party Member 2) + WP: 20 (Party Member 3)) x 3 positive effects = 135 damage.) All positive effects are expended in the

Call to Arms.

If the captain chose to rally an ally, the

Call to Arms

is led on the enemy with the most health.

2. CRITICAL HIT/INSPIRING RALLY: The captain deals damage equal to twice their weapon power added to their level. Alternatively, the captain may choose to bolster an ally, giving them the Inspired effect for the duration of the battle.

3. HIT/HASTENING GOAD: The captain deals damage equal to their weapon power added to their level. Alternatively, the captain may choose to bolster an ally, giving them the Hastened effect for the duration of the battle.

4. OPTIMISM/ENCOURAGING SHOUT: The captain is safe from Free Hits for the remainder of the round. Alternatively, the captain may choose to bolster an ally, giving them the Encouraged effect for the duration of the battle.

5. DAMAGE/NO BATTLE CRY: The captain is struck by the opponent’s attack. Alternatively, any attempt of bolstering an ally fails.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE/NO BATTLE CRY: The captain is struck by the opponent’s special skill. Alternatively, any attempt of bolstering an ally fails.

[Waterbrick Down]

For the month of the Second Anniversary I'm going to (try) and post a new Expert Class each day. I have a ton of ideas for them, some at least a few months old, so I thought it'd be fun just to get them all out there and maybe serve as inspiration for future classes.

First off, the Captain. It was originally called Cavalier, but the name's honestly more suited to WBD's class idea than mine, though they share the same idea - a knight-esque support warrior who buffs allies but is also effective in dealing damage of their own. Give credit for the Shield concept to Endgame, which changed drastically from what it was once I saw his Luosh Guard class in Quest 48. The idea was just perfectly suited here.

CAPTAIN

These gallant warriors focus their strength on enhancing their allies in battle.

· Additional Health: +13

· Weapons: Captains wield prominent weapons like greatswords, halberds, lances, maces, hammers, and axes.

· Job Traits: Diplomacy (See Knight), Battle Cry – Instead of attacking, Captains can choose to bolster an ally, but only in the heat of battle, Initiative (See Paragon)

· Battle Style: Valiant: Captains can boost their allies’ morale.

1. SHIELD:

Call to Arms:

The captain leads the party into a charge, dealing damage to the target equal to the entire party’s weapon power added together multiplied by the number of positive effects they all have. ((WP: 10 (Party Member 1) + WP: 15 (Party Member 2) + WP: 20 (Party Member 3)) x 3 positive effects = 135 damage.) All positive effects are expended in the

Call to Arms.

If the captain chose to rally an ally, the

Call to Arms

is led on the enemy with the most health.

2. CRITICAL HIT/INSPIRING RALLY: The captain deals damage equal to twice their weapon power added to their level. Alternatively, the captain may choose to bolster an ally, giving them the Inspired effect for the duration of the battle.

3. HIT/HASTENING GOAD: The captain deals damage equal to their weapon power added to their level. Alternatively, the captain may choose to bolster an ally, giving them the Hastened effect for the duration of the battle.

4. OPTIMISM/ENCOURAGING SHOUT: The captain is safe from Free Hits for the remainder of the round. Alternatively, the captain may choose to bolster an ally, giving them the Encouraged effect for the duration of the battle.

5. DAMAGE/NO BATTLE CRY: The captain is struck by the opponent’s attack. Alternatively, any attempt of bolstering an ally fails.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE/NO BATTLE CRY: The captain is struck by the opponent’s special skill. Alternatively, any attempt of bolstering an ally fails.

I like it.

[UsernameMDM]

I think the positive effects for the Captain should be similar to Chi Monk. Instead of different rolls granting different positive effects, a single roll should deal all of the effects in a certain order (Inspired, Encouraged, Reinforced). I do not think the Captain should be able to grant any other positive effects as the ones listed 'fit' what I think a good captain does for the troops.

[CMP]

I think the positive effects for the Captain should be similar to Chi Monk. Instead of different rolls granting different positive effects, a single roll should deal all of the effects in a certain order (Inspired, Encouraged, Reinforced). I do not think the Captain should be able to grant any other positive effects as the ones listed 'fit' what I think a good captain does for the troops.

Positive effects are very powerful. They don't cost ether, I'd thought it'd be balanced enough if it was entirely random.

But your idea has me interested. Do you mean the Captain deals Inspired, then Encouraged, etc, or he has to Inspire someone before Encouraging them?

[UsernameMDM]

But your idea has me interested. Do you mean the Captain deals Inspired, then Encouraged, etc, or he has to Inspire someone before Encouraging them?

2nd option.

I think you should keep the shield skill's damage the way it is, but also make it remove (at least 1) negative effects from the whole party. The MISS roll should be the one that deals a single positive effect to a single ally which should be pre-selected (like a conditional action).

[Waterbrick Down]

Somewhat along the line of what MDM is saying, I'd say the first battle cry against an ally would make them hastened, next encouraged, next reinforced, and finally inspired. However, I think the randomness might keep the power from becoming abused in that you might end up wasting a battle cry on someone who already has a certain effect. Positive effects without consuming ether or a consumable are really powerful, so I think they need a counterbalance. That saying, since it's Hit and Critical Hit, are rather lack-luster, I think it's a good compromise. I think it would take maybe a few practice runs to figure out which mechanic would work best, but if it becomes a class, I know Skrall is definitely going to go for it, being the closest thing to Paragon he can go.

[CMP]

Interesting thoughts. I like the ideas.

I'm thinking Encouraged > Hastened > Inspired > Reinforced, based on how expensive each consumable is in the marketplace.

Keep in mind the Shield expends all positive effects. I think it's a reasonable compromise considering how much damage you could potentially cause at their expense. You'd have to go through the entire order again if you wanted someone to have a certain effect.

[Waterbrick Down]

I don't know about the shield expending all positive effects. It kind of discourages the use of consumables in the first place then.

[CMP]

I don't know about the shield expending all positive effects. It kind of discourages the use of consumables in the first place then.

Every positive effect is an additional multiplier, though. It's a massive amount of damage. Plus I needed to balance it, otherwise they'd just give every member of the party every positive effect.