Heroica RPG - Expert Job Class Discussion

[Sandy]

What of Raider, though? Raiders deal critical hits to all enemies, which I think is vastly more useful than giving each single party member a single hit. There's a very good chance the enemies outnumber the heroes anyway, and given many classes aren't built to deal raw damage - and even then, maybe they do so by casting spells instead - I still think Onslaught is underpowered.

The same goes for Hallowed Ascension, which I see as a downgraded Roots of Life. Most healers restore allies to full health anyway. It should at least give them the Blessed-effect too.

I can still work on them, but please look at the classes as a whole, instead of focusing solely on their Shield-skill. The High Cleric is much more effective as a healer, even if they cannot remove effects like the Druid can.

Also remember that these Veteran Classes are supposed to be focused on a single function, unlike the advanced and expert classes which are more versatile.

[UsernameMDM]

How about 1/2 chance to block?

[CMP]

I can still work on them, but please look at the classes as a whole, instead of focusing solely on their Shield-skill. The High Cleric is much more effective as a healer, even if they cannot remove effects like the Druid can.

The rest of the classes are great already, it's only really the Shield skills I think could use a boost. I think High Cleric's arc healing is a perfectly good upgrade to the Cleric's regular healing, while not taking the uniqueness out of Druid, but since all healers heal the entire party on Shield anyway, I think it needs something more is all.

[Palathadric]

Must...go...High...Cleric!

The rest of the classes are great already, it's only really the Shield skills I think could use a boost. I think High Cleric's arc healing is a perfectly good upgrade to the Cleric's regular healing, while not taking the uniqueness out of Druid, but since all healers heal the entire party on Shield anyway, I think it needs something more is all.

I agree with CMP, the classes are great overall, though some of the Shield skills could be improved a little. Really looking forward to seeing these in action.

[Sandy]

I changed Barbarian chieftain's Shield-skill to a more powerful version of Frenzy (which is a more boring option, but as you guys wish... ).

And here's the archmage. I hope you don't deem his "Arcane Wisdom" trait too "killjoy"-ish...

Archmage – These supreme spellcasters can bend the forces of nature to their will, just like the Doomsayer could.

· Additional Health: +10

· Additional Ether: +10

· Weapons: Archmages use the same equipment as mages.

· Job Traits: Spellcasting – Archmages can use spells to remove obstacles outside of battle at the cost 1 ether; Arcane Wisdom - Archmages can instantly solve any puzzle or riddle that they encounter, at an ether cost determined by the QM; Circle of Mages – All original mages in the party can use any elemental gems and scrolls that at least one of them possesses.

· Battle Style: Cataclysmic – Archmages have perfect control over natural elements and ether flows.

1. SHIELD:

Magic Cataclysm

– The archmage conjures a devastating elemental spell to all enemies at the cost of 1 ether. The damage equals the archmage’s weapon power added to their level, multiplied by four if the enemy is weak against the element, and by two if the enemy is not. If no element was chosen, it will be selected randomly among those available to the archmage. If all ether is depleted, nothing happens.

2. CRITICAL HIT/GREAT ARC SPELL: The archmage attacks the target with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level. Instead of attacking, the archmage can cast an elemental spell at all enemies with power equal to their critical hit, at an ether cost equal to the amount of enemies.

3. HIT/ARC SPELL: The archmage attacks the target with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level. Instead of attacking, the archmage can cast an elemental spell at all enemies with power equal to their hit, at an ether cost equal to the amount of enemies.

4. ABSORB ETHER/MEDITATE: The archmage transfers all ether from the target to themselves. If the enemy has no ether, the archmage meditates to regain 1 ether instead.

5. DAMAGE: The archmage is struck by the opponent’s attack.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE: The archmage is struck by the opponent’s special skill.

[Kintobor]

Ha! In Four's Company case, I'd tell the Archmage that he'd have enough ether if he was two level's higher.

For me, aren't most quests a puzzle or a riddle, to an extent? Who killed blank? Arcane Wisdom says screw the clues, it was the butler.

I don't like it, because it essentially bypasses things that a quest master has taken the time to make, and in some cases, an important part of a quest. The only way I'd like it is if we standardized the idea that puzzles grant experience after completion.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Kintobor

[Brickdoctor]

So, what's the Ether cost of one of Zepher's anagrams...

[Kintobor]

Instead, how about a hint system. Instead of outright solving a puzzle, the ability gives the Archmage the ability to receive a hint, and the helpfulness of the hint is reliant on how much ether the Archamge expends?

Edited October 5, 2013 by Kintobor

[CMP]

Instead, how about a hint system. Instead of outright solving a puzzle, the ability gives the Archmage the ability to receive a hint, and the helpfulness of the hint is reliant on how much ether the Archamge expends?

This is a good suggestion. Beyond that, Archmage is awesome.

Maybe Onslaught uses the weapon power of all party members added together rather than just multiplying the chieftain's by three? You probably don't want to change it again, but I liked the flavor of the party having some hand in the Shield itself.

[Flipz]

This is a good suggestion. Beyond that, Archmage is awesome.

Maybe Onslaught uses the weapon power of all party members added together rather than just multiplying the chieftain's by three? You probably don't want to change it again, but I liked the flavor of the party having some hand in the Shield itself.

Hmm, didn't Endgame's NPC in Quest 48 have a SHIELD skill like that? I really liked it, that would work well for Onslaught.

Also, I approve of Archmage. Arthur and Thalion together could insta-power an entire army of Mages. Let the Mage Uprising begin!

[Sandy]

Instead, how about a hint system. Instead of outright solving a puzzle, the ability gives the Archmage the ability to receive a hint, and the helpfulness of the hint is reliant on how much ether the Archamge expends?

That's a great suggestion, actually!

Now for the sylvan ranger. It's somewhat more unique than the other Veteran Classes, with it's ability to tame monsters, but I just couldn't figure out another way to properly buff rangers.

Sylvan Ranger – These silent hunters deeply respect their environment, following the teachings of the Fey One.

· Additional Health: +15

· Weapons: Sylvan rangers use the same equipment as rangers.

· Job Traits: Animal Talk – Sylvan rangers are able to communicate with animals and monsters and gain information from them; Track Down – Sylvan rangers can successfully follow the traces of any person or monster they are after; Fellowship of the Forest – If there are other original rangers in the party, the sylvan ranger is hastened while the other original rangers become able to tame monsters as well.

· Battle Style: Sylvan – Besides being great archers, the sylvan rangers can also tame monsters.

1. SHIELD:

Ambush

– The sylvan ranger shoots the enemy party 3-18 times with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level, ignoring all defenses as well as distance. The shots are divided as equally as possible among the enemy party, starting with the target and working down the list of enemies.

2. CRITICAL HIT/TAME WELL: The sylvan ranger attacks the target with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level. Optionally, the sylvan ranger can tame one beast-, plant- or vermin –type enemy to fight on the heroes’ side for the next six rounds. If all other enemies are defeated within that time, the monster will give up their drops and leave the battle peacefully. Otherwise the monster will rejoin the enemies.

3. HIT/TAME: The sylvan ranger attacks the target with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level. Optionally, the sylvan ranger can tame one beast-, plant- or vermin –type enemy to fight on the heroes’ side for the next three rounds. If all other enemies are defeated within that time, the monster will give up their drops and leave the battle peacefully. Otherwise the monster will rejoin the enemies.

4. AIM/TAME POORLY: The sylvan ranger focuses their shot to attack the target with strength equal to their weapon power only. Optionally, the sylvan ranger can tame one beast-, plant- or vermin –type enemy to fight on the heroes’ side for the next round. If all other enemies are defeated within that time, the monster will give up their drops and leave the battle peacefully. Otherwise the monster will rejoin the enemies.

5. DAMAGE/NO TAMING: The sylvan ranger is struck by the opponent’s attack. Optionally, attempting to tame a monster fails.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE/NO TAMING: The sylvan ranger is struck by the opponent’s special skill. Optionally, attempting to tame a monster fails.

Tamed Monsters:

Sylvan Rangers can tame beast-, plant- or vermin-type enemies for six, three or one round, depending on the roll. The tamed enemy will keep its level and health, and fight according to the sylvan ranger’s orders with the following skills:

1. SHIELD: The tamed monster uses their special skill.

2.-4. HIT: The tamed monster deals damage equal to their level to the target.

5. DAMAGE: The tamed monster is struck by the opponent’s attack.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE: The tamed monster is struck by the opponent’s special skill.

If every other enemy is defeated while the monster is being controlled by the sylvan ranger, it will automatically give up its drops and leave the battle peacefully. If the tamed monster is defeated by the enemies, it will also give up its drops to the heroes. Otherwise the tamed monster will rejoin the enemy party after the taming period is over.

Sylvan rangers can control multiple tamed enemies at the same time. Through the Fellowship of the Forest –trait, other original rangers can tame enemies as well, as long as they are in the same party with a sylvan ranger.

[CMP]

Definitely cool, but I'd argue against more than three tamed monsters at any time.

Or make Damage and Special Damage occur on failed attempts of taming.

[Tachyon]

So in theory, we can actually tame a boss monster ?

[CMP]

So in theory, we can actually tame a boss monster ?

I imagine some monsters being 'immune to tamed'.

[Sandy]

Or make Damage and Special Damage occur on failed attempts of taming.

Good suggestion. There's really no reason the enemy won't attack the ranger if he fails to tame it

So in theory, we can actually tame a boss monster ?

Well, a QM can always make bosses immune to taming, but in theory, yes.

And here's the last one! Quite a fun one it turned out be, if I do say so myself. (It's probably because it's 3:30 AM here...)

Rogue Thief – These stealthy robbers leave their victims hanging out dry, just as Lady Luck was wont to do.

· Additional Health: +20

· Weapons: Rogue thieves use the same equipment as rogues.

· Job Traits: Flee – Rogue thieves can leave battles at any time, but they will not gain any rewards from the battles they’ve fled from; Gamble – Each time the rogue thief gains gold, they can take a single gamble of “double or nothing”; Kingpin – If there are other original rogues in the party, the rogue thief is lucky while the other original rogues gain 50% more gold from stealing.

· Battle Style: Devious – Rogue thieves use every trick in the book to survive battles while gaining wealth on the side.

1. SHIELD:

Grand Theft Hero

– The rogue thief performs almost a perfect crime as they transfer health equal to three times their weapon power added to their level from the target to themselves and steal all positive effects and drops that the target has.

2. CRITICAL THEFT: The rogue thief attacks the target with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level. If the target carries gold, the rogue thief steals gold equal to the target’s level.

3. THEFT: The rogue thief attacks the target with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level. If the target carries gold, the rogue thief steals gold equal to the target’s level.

4. STEAL & HIDE: If the target carries gold, the rogue thief steals gold equal to the target’s level. Then the rogue thief hides for the remainder of the round, avoiding all actions that might come their way.

5. DAMAGE: The rogue thief is struck by the opponent’s attack.

6. SPECIAL DODGE: The rogue thief has a 1/2 chance to dodge the opponent’s special skill so that it hits the next ally in turn instead, unless the skill hits everyone.

[Flipz]

Why not say that immunity to Hexed also provides immunity to Tamed?

OK, it's official: my second character will be a Rogue.

[CMP]

Love it.

[JimBee]

Those look pretty good, Sandy but I still would like to see some options that I suggested put into play:

Shield: ???

Critical Hit/Effective Block: Deals damage equal to 2x WP + Level. Optionally, can Block for an ally, reducing their damage taken for a round by 1/2.

Hit/Block: Deals damage equal to WP+level. Optionally, can Blcok for an ally, reducing their damage taken for a round by 1/4.

Tank: Reduces all damage to self to 0 for the current round.

Advanced Deflect: Takes damage equal to enemy's level -SP. Has a 1/3 chance to deflect the attack completely.

Special Damage: normal

High Cleric:

Shield: ???

Critical Hit/Great Arc Heal/Complete Revive: Critical Hit/Arc Heal to all allies 2xWP +lvl (costs ether=allies healed)/Revives targeted ally with full health (3 ether)

Hit/Arc Heal/Strong Revive: Hit/Arc Heal all allies WP+lvl/Revives ally with half health. (2 ether)

Meditate/Weak Arc Heal/Revive: Meditate/Arc Heal all allies equal to lvl/revive ally with one health (1 ether)

Damage

Special Dodge

Archmage:

Shield: ???

Critical Hit/Great Arc Spell/Great Drain: Critical Hit/Arc Spell=2xWP+lvl (ether=# of enemies)/Drains ether=enemy level x2

Hit/Arc Spell/Drain: Hit/Arc Spell/Drains ether=enemy level

Spell/Drain: Spell/Drains 1 ether

Damage

Special Damage

You say that you want the Veteran Classes to be less versatile but more skilled in the basic abilities than Expert Classes, so I think these ideas, with the options to Revive/Ether Drain/Block for High Clerics/Archmages/Guardian Knights, respectively. These skills offer options that don't necessarily add versatility, but reinforce what the essence of the Basic Class is, so to heal/cast spells/tank more effectively.

That said, I do really like the buffing involved with the Veteran Class job traits (Fellowship of the Forest, etc.). Those definitely offer opportunity for advanced party tactics.

[Zepher]

I think the classes look very nice, Sandy! I really can't see many problems with them - we'll see when they go into action, but really they look nice. I agree with JimBee - the buffs are awesome. Great work. We'll see what happens when they come into play, but right now they look good!

[Sandy]

Those look pretty good, Sandy but I still would like to see some options that I suggested put into play:

I actually did take your suggestions into consideration when creating the classes, but giving them additional actions just seems too much. The Sylvan Ranger was an exception, since I couldn't figure out how to increase their skills otherwise without outclassing the Barbarian Chieftain.

Archmage can already drain ether, you just have to realize that not that many enemies have ether to begin with, so it's kinda futile to make it a separate skill. High cleric can revive with their Shield-skill, allowing them to revive otherwise is just overdoing it. And the Guardian Knight is already extremely defensive without additional blocking skills.

Remember that there's still Master Classes to advance to. If these Veteran Classes were made too powerful, nobody would want to become a Paragon or a Prophet anymore.

Why not say that immunity to Hexed also provides immunity to Tamed?

Because that doesn't make any sense. They are two totally different things.

[Sandy]

Since I like some of the job traits I've thought for the Veteran Classes so much, I've decided to give them to the Paragon and the Prophet as well, to make them that much more desirable to move onto once the player hits Level 50.

Paragon's job traits are: Command, Aura of Honour, Gamble, Initiative, Restoration and Retreat

Prophet's job traits are: Nurturing, Spellcasting, Arcane Wisdom, Track Down, Clairvoyance and Glossolalia

[Flipz]

I like it. I assume the changes to the Master Classes come into play immediately?

Because that doesn't make any sense. They are two totally different things.

Not really. Hexed is a mind-affecting effect, in which the target's will is subverted by the Hex user. Tamed is a mind-effecting effect, in which the target's will is subverted by the Tamed user. The only real difference is the delivery method--if someone is immune to Hex, I generally read it as "this enemy is too strong-willed to have their will subverted", so it makes sense that such an individual would also be immune to taming.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Flipz

[Sandy]

Not really. Hexed is a mind-affecting effect, in which the target's will is subverted by the Hex user. Tamed is a mind-effecting effect, in which the target's will is subverted by the Tamed user. The only real difference is the delivery method--if someone is immune to Hex, I generally read it as "this enemy is too strong-willed to have their will subverted", so it makes sense that such an individual would also be immune to taming.

But the two are not connected in any way, so it doesn't "make sense". I for one would not take it for granted that an enemy immune to hexed would automatically be immune to taming as well. You can't leave game mechanics up to the players interpretation like that.

What's the problem with QMs just saying when their monster is immune to taming?

[JimBee]

I actually did take your suggestions into consideration when creating the classes, but giving them additional actions just seems too much. The Sylvan Ranger was an exception, since I couldn't figure out how to increase their skills otherwise without outclassing the Barbarian Chieftain.

Archmage can already drain ether, you just have to realize that not that many enemies have ether to begin with, so it's kinda futile to make it a separate skill. High cleric can revive with their Shield-skill, allowing them to revive otherwise is just overdoing it. And the Guardian Knight is already extremely defensive without additional blocking skills.

Remember that there's still Master Classes to advance to. If these Veteran Classes were made too powerful, nobody would want to become a Paragon or a Prophet anymore.

I was more thinking that drain could just be used to recover ether, rather than steal it. I still think Guardian Knight is too similar to Paladin without a blocking skill or something. I don't think they would make the Master Classes any less attractive if we added more skills; they would simply reinforce what skills define the Basic Classes, whereas Master Classes combine skills and are more versatile than specialized.

[Sandy]

I still think Guardian Knight is too similar to Paladin without a blocking skill or something.

I've thought of a new Shield-skill for the Guardian Knight:

SHIELD:

Mirror Sentinel

– The guardian knight takes a protective stance that reflects all attacks and special skills directed at the party back to the opponents for the duration of the next round.

With that, Aura of Honour, Master of the Order, Shield Bash and Well Deflected Damage, the class should stand out enough from the other knights.