Heroica RPG - Expert Job Class Discussion

[Sandy]

Any opinion on an expert class that could intentionally spend a turn to (focus/gather power/aim/etc...) and if they hit on their subsequent turn they'd do double damage?

I point you to take a look at the Winged Warrior's rule page.

Also thoughts on a tank class that would utilize the "marking" concept, i.e. class marks an enemy, when said enemy does something, i.e. damages another party member, mark activates and enemy is penalized/damaged/some negative effect/etc.

Sounds more like an idea for an artifact than a whole class...

[Waterbrick Down]

Ah yes, there are definitely not enough Winged Warriors. I love the class, but it doesn't seem to come up very often. The class would differ in that the player can actually choose to focus/aim/gather-power as opposed to having it be dependent on a die roll. Alters the strategy a bit and makes failure dependent on one roll as opposed to too, but I can see there being enough similarity to warrant no further thought.

As for the marking idea, bare-bones class:

Vanguard

Additional Health: +12

Weapons: Hammers, Maces, Spears, Halberds, Shields

Job Traits:

Intimidation - (See Black Knight)

Calculating Mind - (See Regulator)

Marking - Vanguards can choose to mark an enemy as their action, but must remain in the front row while enemies are marked.

Battle Style: Challenging - Vanguards keep enemies focused on them and away from their fellow party members

1. SHIELD: Come At Me - ??

2. CRITICAL HIT: The Vanguard attacks the target with strength equal to their weapon power times two added to their level.

3. HIT: The Vanguard attacks the target with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level.

4. MISS: The Vanguard's attack misses.

5. DEFLECTED DAMAGE: The Vanguard is struck by their opponent's attack. The power of the Vanguard's Shield decreases the strength of the attack and has a 1/6 chance of blocking the attack completely.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE: The Vanguard is struck by their opponent's special skill.

Marks: Marks activate when the marked enemy does damage that doesn't include the Vanguard. One mark per enemy and only one of each mark may be used in a battle.

Sacrificial Mark: The Vanguard steps in the way of the attack and takes the damage intended for the ally.

Concussive Mark: The Vanguard slams his shield into the enemy stunning it for the next turn.

Entangling Mark: The Vanguard trips up the enemy slowing them for the remainder of the battle.

Retaliatory Mark: The Vanguard does damage to the enemy equal to his level.

Shielding Mark: The Vanguard deflects part of the blow intended for the ally adding his SP to his ally.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Waterbrick Down

[Palathadric]

I would love to go Winged Warrior, but I would have to get a whole set of new weapons which sounds too tiresome.

[CMP]

I like the idea. A dedicated, consistent tank is something Heroica really needs.

I still think the Marks system is still kind of complex. Maybe the Vanguard can spend one turn to take a Stance that activates the first time an enemy deals Damage or a Free Hit in a round?

Edited June 5, 2014 by CallMePie

[StickFig]

Ah yes, there are definitely not enough Winged Warriors. I love the class, but it doesn't seem to come up very often.

I would love to go Winged Warrior, but I would have to get a whole set of new weapons which sounds too tiresome.

I agree. Winged Warrior is at the top of my list, but with my sweet cannon I just don't know... I still think a Winged Warrior should be able to use the cannon based on their rules.

Winged Warrior

Winged Warriors generally used ranged weapons such as bows, crossbows, and throwing weapons, but can also use axes, longswords, and spears.

Would that mean that a Winged Warrior is able to use a hand cannon? I have visions of flying gnomes dancing in my head.

If they could it would specifically listed there. As it is, no.

It says they use ranged weapons and then gives a list of examples, but it isn't written to indicate that those are the only possibilities.

[CMP]

It says they use ranged weapons and then gives a list of examples, but it isn't written to indicate that those are the only possibilities.

The basic and expert class lists, I think, are almost all written like that. It's only weapon types that are specifically listed.

[StickFig]

Well booo. I guess I'll just have to hold on to my Sword of the Red Lizard from Baltarok. Anyone planning "certain Rito quests" any time soon? Although I do have plenty of time since Matthias still needs 50 experience to get to the Expert Classes....

[JimBee]

Ah yes, there are definitely not enough Winged Warriors. I love the class, but it doesn't seem to come up very often. The class would differ in that the player can actually choose to focus/aim/gather-power as opposed to having it be dependent on a die roll. Alters the strategy a bit and makes failure dependent on one roll as opposed to too, but I can see there being enough similarity to warrant no further thought.

Hm, that also brings up a point about WW that I've been thinking about for a while... I'm considering changing the SHIELD skill so that it does not use up Fly counters, because it does take two successful rolls; each with a 1/2 chance of being successful, so, there's only a 1/4 chance of the Fly ability actually being of use, and even less so if someone tried to Fly more than once for the stacking.

The marking skill you've outlined is interesting, but not really necessary IMO. It sounds like a lot of them could be made into items instead. If we're talking about a pure tank class, though, the Sacrificial Mark sounds like a cool skill. When the Veteran classes were first revealed I suggested a defend ability for the Guardian Knight, but it was rejected. I still think it'd be appropriate for that class, but another class it could be used. Instead of attacking, the hero could choose to defend a single or multiple allies, or maybe against a single enemy.

Also, weren't there some classes (three or so) of yours that had been approved, WBD? Swashbuckler, some circus-based class, and something else?

I agree. Winged Warrior is at the top of my list, but with my sweet cannon I just don't know... I still think a Winged Warrior should be able to use the cannon based on their rules.

It says they use ranged weapons and then gives a list of examples, but it isn't written to indicate that those are the only possibilities.

As the one who invented the class, I can say that they're intended to be able to use swift, distance weapons, effective for swooping down and making quick attacks. Handcannons would just be too slow and heavy, logically. I would also make them able to use lances and halberds but those are also heavy, and you can't really allow too many weapon types for a single class.

I guess the class can be up for debate. It was a long time ago that I made it and it hasn't ever been tested out. I'd be willing to consider changes, as long as Sandy and the others would agree.

[Waterbrick Down]

The marking skill you've outlined is interesting, but not really necessary IMO. It sounds like a lot of them could be made into items instead. If we're talking about a pure tank class, though, the Sacrificial Mark sounds like a cool skill. When the Veteran classes were first revealed I suggested a defend ability for the Guardian Knight, but it was rejected. I still think it'd be appropriate for that class, but another class it could be used. Instead of attacking, the hero could choose to defend a single or multiple allies, or maybe against a single enemy.

Also, weren't there some classes (three or so) of yours that had been approved, WBD? Swashbuckler, some circus-based class, and something else?

Tanks in Heroica only encapsulate the durability aspect of the role except on Shield rolls, it'd be neat to see a class that helps actually defend party members nearly all the time. Back to the drawing board.

No classes were ever approved, but yes, Swashbuckler, Illusionist, Artificer, and Slayer.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Waterbrick Down

[Flipz]

It'd also be cool to see an NPC use that class, similar to how we've seen previews of ECs in recent quests (Marauder, Minstrel, Sylvan Ranger, Artisan, Cannoneer...)

Hmm...I think I could swing that, actually. Kinto DOES have Denarii built, after all.

I feel you though, JimB--I really enjoyed getting to play WW in CAT, and if a new Quest offered access I might be tempted--or maybe even for my second character once that comes about.

[Sandy]

Here's the outline for a new expert job class, the Scholar - previously seen as Byblos' own class. I made a few tweaks to it, but do you guys have any suggestions to give it a little more pizzazz?

Scholar – This academic researcher wields the power of knowledge.

• Additional Health: 6
  
• Additional Ether: 9 (+1 per level for classes without base ether)
  
• Weapons: Scholars can use throwing weapons to damage enemies from a far. They are also talented with scrolls.
  
• Job Traits: Arcane Wisdom - Scholars can spend ether to get a hint on any puzzle or riddle that they encounter - the more ether they spend, the more revealing the hint is; Well-read – The scholar can use any scroll with a 2/3 success rate; Fast Learner - The scholar gains double experience from battles.
  
• Battle Style: Scholastic – Scholars are most efficient with a vast selection of scrolls at hand.
  

1. SHIELD:

Lecture

– The scholar gives the target a proper teaching, using all the scrolls in his inventory on the target at the same time. The scholar can only use as many scrolls as his remaining ether allows.

2. CRITICAL HIT: The scholar attacks the target with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level. (e.g. WP 15 x 2 + Level 30 = 60 damage)

3. HIT: The scholar attacks the target with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level. (e.g. WP 15 + Level 30 = 45 damage)

4. AIM: The scholar attacks the target with strength equal to their weapon power only.

5. DAMAGE: The scholar is struck by the opponent’s attack.

6. SPECIAL GUARD: The scholar is struck by the opponent’s special skill, but has a ½ chance to be protected from any negative effects caused by it.

[Cutcobra]

Here's the outline for a new expert job class, the Scholar - previously seen as Byblos' own class. I made a few tweaks to it, but do you guys have any suggestions to give it a little more pizzazz?

Scholar – This academic researcher wields the power of knowledge.

• Additional Health: 6
  
• Additional Ether: 9 (+1 per level for classes without base ether)
  
• Weapons: Scholars can use throwing weapons to damage enemies from a far. They are also talented with scrolls.
  
• Job Traits: Arcane Wisdom - Scholars can spend ether to get a hint on any puzzle or riddle that they encounter - the more ether they spend, the more revealing the hint is; Well-read – The scholar can use any scroll with a 2/3 success rate; Fast Learner - The scholar gains double experience from battles.
  
• Battle Style: Scholastic – Scholars are most efficient with a vast selection of scrolls at hand.
  

1. SHIELD:

Lecture

– The scholar gives the target a proper teaching, using all the scrolls in his inventory on the target at the same time. The scholar can only use as many scrolls as his remaining ether allows.

2. CRITICAL HIT: The scholar attacks the target with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level. (e.g. WP 15 x 2 + Level 30 = 60 damage)

3. HIT: The scholar attacks the target with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level. (e.g. WP 15 + Level 30 = 45 damage)

4. AIM: The scholar attacks the target with strength equal to their weapon power only.

5. DAMAGE: The scholar is struck by the opponent’s attack.

6. SPECIAL GUARD: The scholar is struck by the opponent’s special skill, but has a ½ chance to be protected from any negative effects caused by it.

What does it require, great reputation among the heroes who quit on their first quest?

It seems a little boring, aside from the Job Traits. Maybe they can have an "Critical Intelligent Hit: The scholar attacks the target with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level plus the amount of ether lost" "Intelligent Hit: The scholar attacks the target with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level plus the amount of ether lost."

Or maybe just "Plus the amount of ether left."

[Sandy]

Maybe they can have an "Critical Intelligent Hit: The scholar attacks the target with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level plus the amount of ether lost" "Intelligent Hit: The scholar attacks the target with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level plus the amount of ether lost."

Or maybe just "Plus the amount of ether left."

That's actually a great idea! Going with "ether lost" is better, since the other option discourages them to use scrolls. Although the skill should probably named "Stupid Hit" in that case.

[Cutcobra]

That's actually a great idea! Going with "ether lost" is better, since the other option discourages them to use scrolls. Although the skill should probably named "Stupid Hit" in that case.

Well, technically, they spend ether to be smarter. So less ether = more brains.

[Myrddyn]

Questions / clarifications:

Does Fast Learner stack with the Medal of Glory? So sextuple experience from battles?

Does Lecture have 2/3 chance of success for each scroll?

Also, I imagine the ​shield roll will burn through ether quite fast if the Scholar has one of each scroll, especially considering that usually once a target is Blinded, Sealed and Fragile any other effects are unneeded.

An ether-restoring roll could be useful, as even with Cutcobra's idea, it's pretty useless once you run out of ether.

Perhaps something like 1/3 chance to inflict an effect chosen at random from the scrolls in the scholars inventory on successful hits?

[Sandy]

Does Fast Learner stack with the Medal of Glory? So sextuple experience from battles?

I don't think experience gain should stack, so Medal of Glory just overrides Fast Learner, being more effective.

Does Lecture have 2/3 chance of success for each scroll?

Yes, the "Well-read" trait affects the Shield-roll as well. I can write it into the description for clarity's sake.

An ether-restoring roll could be useful, as even with Cutcobra's idea, it's pretty useless once you run out of ether.

I think I'll substitute AIM with MEDITATE.

Perhaps something like 1/3 chance to inflict an effect chosen at random from the scrolls in the scholars inventory on successful hits?

Sounds too complex from a QM's point of view.

[Flipz]

I would definitely appreciate a Meditate roll over an Aim, just because that WILL be an issue. Or even a Meditate option like Prophets get.

Interestingly enough, I have a perfect build for this. Shame I plan to stick with Dragoon for a while.

[Sandy]

Or even a Meditate option like Prophets get.

I think I'll save that for the Prophet.

What do you guys think of the limited weapon selection? I didn't want to introduce yet another unique weapon type (books) to the general play, so throwing weapons were the nearest equivalent. Should there be more options?

Here's the edited stats:

Scholar – This academic researcher wields the power of knowledge.

• Additional Health: 6
  
• Additional Ether: 9 (+1 per level for classes without base ether)
  
• Weapons: Scholars can use throwing weapons to damage enemies from a far. They are also talented with scrolls.
  
• Job Trait: Arcane Wisdom - Scholars can spend ether to get a hint on any puzzle or riddle that they encounter - the more ether they spend, the more revealing the hint is; Well-read – Scholars can use any scroll with a 2/3 success rate; Fast Learner -
  Scholars gain double experience from battles (does not stack with artifacts).
  
• Battle Style: Scholastic – Scholars are most efficient with a vast selection of scrolls at hand.
  

1. SHIELD:

Lecture

– The scholar gives the target a proper teaching, using all the scrolls in his inventory on the target at the same time, each with a 2/3 chance of success. The scholar can only use as many scrolls as his remaining ether allows.

2. CRITICAL EDUCATED HIT: The scholar attacks the target with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level and the amount of ether they have spent. (e.g. WP 15 x 2 + Level 30 + 5 ether spent = 65 damage)

3. EDUCATED HIT: The scholar attacks the target with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level and the amount of ether they have spent. (e.g. WP 15 + Level 30 + 5 ether spent = 50 damage)

4. MEDITATE: The scholar concentrates to regain 1 ether.

5. DAMAGE: The scholar is struck by the opponent’s attack.

6. SPECIAL GUARD: The scholar is struck by the opponent’s special skill, but has a ½ chance to be protected from any negative effects caused by it.

[CMP]

Fast Learner seems overpowered. Glossolalia would fit better, too.

[Flipz]

I'm fine with it, though I do worry about Artifact compatibility. Perhaps allow them to wear Artifacts suitable for Mages and Clerics? (On a similar note, there's several Artifacts in the Marketplace [E.G. Ethereal Cloaks] that should be compatible with more Ether-using classes.)

Fast Learner seems overpowered. Glossolalia would fit better, too.

Totally agree.

[Sandy]

Fast Learner seems overpowered. Glossolalia would fit better, too.

But with so many players already having Medal of Glories, and the fact that this job class won't be widely available anyway, I don't think it is.

I'm fine with it, though I do worry about Artifact compatibility. Perhaps allow them to wear Artifacts suitable for Mages and Clerics? (On a similar note, there's several Artifacts in the Marketplace [E.G. Ethereal Cloaks] that should be compatible with more Ether-using classes.)

Artifacts in the Marketplace have always been edited when a new Expert Job Class has been introduced.

The Ethereal Cloak is that way on purpose, though.

[Endgame]

But with so many players already having Medal of Glories, and the fact that this job class won't be widely available anyway, I don't think it is.

That is operating under the assumption that Medals of Glory are balanced.

Fast Learner is worse, though, because its essentially inseperable. There is no way to dequip it - as long as you are a scholar, there is no shaking off the EXP doubler. So no matter what, Scholars will be progressing twice as fast as any other normal hero, who usually has to scrape and struggle for EXP. Those levels will make a difference, too - they'll get artifacts and other classes much earlier than the bulk of Heroica, only widening the power gap - despite there being people who have played longer, gone on more quests, and completed more battles, Scholars will just surpass them purely because of a single job trait. This all applies to Medals of Glory/Valor, really, but at least they can be dequipped.

Also, I hope there will be no "Immune to Negative Effects" monsters if you're gonna introduce a class specifically for dealing them out, Sandy.

[Kintobor]

What do you guys think of the limited weapon selection? I didn't want to introduce yet another unique weapon type (books) to the general play, so throwing weapons were the nearest equivalent. Should there be more options?

Here's the edited stats:

*snip*

I preferred the books, to be honest. It gave the class flavour. Perhaps give the player a selection of books to choose from when they get into the class to start off? Give them two or three and if they want the rest of them they have to go out and find them? Other than that, I'm okay with the class.

*snip*

Basically everything Endgame said. I don't like the Fast Learner trait at all. What happens when you combine it with the Medal of Glory or Medal of Valor? Do they stack? The Medal of Glory isn't all that common, either.

Perhaps a roleplaying alternative would be better? Here's a few ideas:

Linguist- The scholar can translate any language written or spoken.

Front to Back- Scholar's can pick up any book and understand it's contents quickly.

[Flare]

In my opinion Fast Learner is definitely overpowered. In addition, I think that books should be used as a weapon, however maybe its not necessary to create a whole new weapon-type just for books? Isn't there a generic throwing-weapon type?

You can just make books a throwing weapon, that is only usable by Scholars.

[LordoftheNoobs]

That kind of defeats the purpose though, doesn't it? If books were throwing weapons only useable by one class, they'd pretty much be their own weapon type anyway.