Heroica RPG - Expert Job Class Discussion

[Waterbrick Down]

First off I like the class Sandy, I'm in agreement about Fast Learner, though not for the same reason. As I've stated before the experience system is somewhat logarithmic in nature. Thus at higher levels (even with multipliers) the power gap actually grows smaller between heroes. Therefore while Fast Learner might help a little and I can see the role-playing aspect, it really doesn't add anything to the class since access to it doesn't occur till level 30. I think fast learner could be replaced by something better and more desirable as a job trait.

[Sandy]

Okay, I will replace the job trait with something else.

It's going to be a while before the quest offering the class will be pitched, anyway, so there's no rush.

[Flare]

That kind of defeats the purpose though, doesn't it? If books were throwing weapons only useable by one class, they'd pretty much be their own weapon type anyway.

I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure if that's really the case... Whatever

[CMP]

The class might benefit from wands or daggers. There's so few decent throwing weapons at the moment. Unless you plan to flood the market with them like you did instruments.

[swils]

I like the idea of a class based around throwing weapons. I don't know if books really fit, especially as a throwing weapon, but in my head I picture someone throttling a big baddie with a several hundred page, ancient tome, and I can't help but laugh. Books as weapons should definitely be a thing! For flavor/rp's sake, maybe they could be upgraded in a unique way. Maybe each scholar just gets a (very well bound and reinforced) journal upon joining the ranks. Each distinctly unique enemy species the owner kills could be added to the journal and boost its knowledge-base by one. Knowledge contained within the journal would be to WP as experience is to level. Initially there would be a huge power spike as the journal fills up quickly (imagine a fields run) from wp1, but at wp10 it takes two unique pieces of knowledge to gain one wp, etc. Given that its a lv30 class, the early spike wouldn't be so bad as it would really just be catching the scholar up to the strength of their previous weapons.

The issue of "well, what's a unique species" could fall to QM discretion. Taking an old rat battle into consideration, they're all rats so it would only be +1 knowledge. The onus would be on the player to keep an up to date list of knowledge somewhere.

Reading back over it and thinking about it, that would get really complicated really fast. Maybe a simpler alternative: every completed quest (in the future and retroactively applied) gives +1 knowledge, and at the discretion of the qm, events within future quests could award a knowledge point. Things like encountering a new faction or meeting an important person, or facing a legendary beast, etc. Smaller plot points along the way could be grounds for a knowledge point, such as when we learned about and had to participate in Marga's ancient practice of negotiation by blood. For bonus awesomeness, players could keep an actual journal somewhere (maybe on your bio page for eb) where they keep such entries. Just a small tidbit, a few lines describing the thing they got a knowledge point for. It wouldn't be necessary, but would really go well with the idea of being a scholar. And then as the pages stack up, the journal becomes a more and more effective bludgeoning tool!

I know its a huge deviation from the norm, but it makes more sense than taking a tome to Anwyl and asking him to reforge it to be stronger. Plus it would give qms another way to offer neat little rewards throughout the quest, perhaps rewarding players for taking the time to delve a little deeper into the back stories they have prepared for their players.

Edit- And they'd still have their throwing weapons if they'd prefer to upgrade by normal means!

Edited June 20, 2014 by swils

[Kintobor]

That's all fine and dandy, but how many unique encounters do we have, and what counts as a unique encounter? If that's the case, what about a quest like 93. Who counts as an important person, and what counts as an important scene, or place, since the plot really doesn't show up until the very beginning and the very end. (Sorry Sandy if it seems like I'm singling you out, but I'm not, your's is just the most recent example of a quest with that kind of plot. )It's more of a hassle for the player and QM in my mind since it suddenly makes the QM's job harder to decide what and who's truly worth knowledge points.

Perhaps books can't be upgraded, period. I'd like that actually, since it suddenly gives the class a drawback, something all classes should have. Some books you find are going to be awesome, like the Pandemonicon and the rest of Byblos's collection, while others are meant to be just tossed as fodder.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Kintobor

[Waterbrick Down]

Perhaps books can't be upgraded, period. I'd like that actually, since it suddenly gives the class a drawback, something all classes should have.

This. Sure Scholars are an ether dependant class, but it has been suggested that they get an attack boost for being low on ether, which means they really don't lose too much from being low. For the best balance each class should ideally be good at something and poor at something else.

[JimBee]

The class might benefit from wands or daggers. There's so few decent throwing weapons at the moment. Unless you plan to flood the market with them like you did instruments.

Wands yes, this makes sense. Daggers absolutely not. Too many classes wield daggers, it's the catch-all weapon type that has no place being so prominent in expert classes. Expert because they're all niche and require a specialized build.

I like throwing weapons for the class, and wands. I agree that we don't need another weapon type, if QMs want to give books out they can be throwing weapons.

As for the rolls, why not have it be level+WP+ether remaining? That way attacks would be more powerful if the Scholar didn't spam as many effects as they could, as a small reward.

[Flipz]

Wands yes, this makes sense. Daggers absolutely not. Too many classes wield daggers, it's the catch-all weapon type that has no place being so prominent in expert classes. Expert because they're all niche and require a specialized build.

Daggers and longswords are way too common, yes.

As far as a third class skill (because I agree that Fast Learner as it stands is a bit much), perhaps at the end of battle the Scholar's experience gain is applied to the WP of their equipped weapon? Not too OP, but still a nice reward for a squishy support class and not that abuseable since relatively few classes can use throwing weapons and wands.

[samurai-turtle]

I will throw my $0.02 in about Books Weapons. They should be like magical spells but, they have to recharge for a round or two, to avoid getting over used. And I think the Book Weapons should be able to be used by any magic using class.

[Flipz]

I will throw my $0.02 in about Books Weapons. They should be like magical spells but, they have to recharge for a round or two, to avoid getting over used. And I think the Book Weapons should be able to be used by any magic using class.

That's actually somewhat how throwing weapons already work. They deal full damage from the Back Row (and can be imbued with gems like normal weapons), but a turn has to be spent retrieving them before they can be used again.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Flipz

[samurai-turtle]

That's actually somewhat how throwing weapons already work. They deal full damage from the Back Row (and can be imbued with gems like normal weapons), but a turn has to be spent retrieving them before they can be used again.

Yes, but you have to wast time to get them. With the recharge on books you would not use a round to use them again.

I will also add, they should only have one element to attack with not three, example "Book of Fire" not "Book of Fire & Ice with Lighting". So in other words you can not attach gems to them, I see them more energy based, where throwing weapons are physical based.

Edited June 21, 2014 by samuraiturtle

[Myrddyn]

As far as a third class skill (because I agree that Fast Learner as it stands is a bit much), perhaps at the end of battle the Scholar's experience gain is applied to the WP of their equipped weapon? Not too OP, but still a nice reward for a squishy support class and not that abuseable since relatively few classes can use throwing weapons and wands.

Perhaps that could be combined with Swils' idea; Scholar's experience gain is applied to the WP of their book. Said book is otherwise non upgradeable.

But what about Nyx' Book of 1000 creatures? Does that become usable by scholars? Would that make it stop being upgradeable?

I don't know if I like the idea of them using wands; They aren't wizards, they're scholars. And the lack of an immediately re-usable weapon reflects their role as a debuffer rather than a dps. They have unarmed attacks, too, I presume.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Myrddyn

[LordoftheNoobs]

I like samuraiturtle's recharge idea - it makes more sense than physically throwing a book, plus it lets them do something else like cast a scroll spell during the recharge turn instead of wasting time retrieving it.

[Endgame]

Any weapon that self retrieves would be an interesting mechanic. If the Bookmark from 99 became an actual usable weapon, I'd like to think that would be its ability - it just inches back to its owner after being tossed.

[Kintobor]

Yes, but you have to wast time to get them. With the recharge on books you would not use a round to use them again.

I will also add, they should only have one element to attack with not three, example "Book of Fire" not "Book of Fire & Ice with Lighting". So in other words you can not attach gems to them, I see them more energy based, where throwing weapons are physical based.

The recharge idea doesn't really make sense since a Scholar's arsenal is basically going to be full of books their tossing and retrieving, which nullifies the need for a recharge. A scholar more or less needs to strategize before he even makes his first combat action. Which book should I toss this turn in order to set up other players? Should I even toss a book this round? It's removing an interesting trade off between a guaranteed status ailment and having to retrieve the book later which is what makes the game fun and interesting. A scholar won't be tossing one book back and forth, he'd be strategically tossing books in a certain order to maximize his damage output. Besides, you're lobbing books at people: it's pretty physically based.

I doubt anyone would make a book like that any time soon since most of the elements would nullify each other. I agree though that books should not be able to be upgraded, period.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Kintobor

[Sandy]

As for the rolls, why not have it be level+WP+ether remaining? That way attacks would be more powerful if the Scholar didn't spam as many effects as they could, as a small reward.

I already explained that Scholar's speciality is the scrolls, so we want to encourage their use.

Thanks for all the suggestions on the weapons, but creating a whole new mechanic for a weapon type that just one class can use sounds way too much for me. I think I'll keep just the throwing weapons, and books can be a kind of a throwing weapon.

[Zepher]

I really really liked the idea of the ether decrease increasing their attack when I first heard it at first... HOWEVER, while I understand the rationale (encouraging scroll use) I feel that is ALREADY encouraged by them having a 2/3 success rate. I really do think it should be remaining ether, or some variation of that - they should not become more powerful as they dish out effects, or else they have absolutely no down side. They will be both powerful attackers and powerful debuffers.

Unless of course I get on that quest, by which all means keep things as they are. :laugh:

[Sandy]

They will be both powerful attackers and powerful debuffers.

Umm, you do realize they would be more powerful if the attack bonus was their remaining ether? Since that would be the default situation.

[Palathadric]

My main problem is their shield skill. While it's great if the enemy doesn't have any immunities, if the enemy does have immunities then it could turn out to be just a nasty ether drain which the hero may not even want.

Especially considering that most bosses are immune to many of the scrolls and one may not want to waste an enormous amount of ether dumping loads of effects on a weaker enemy.

Of course, one could say that it would make the scholar be more choosy as to what scrolls as he keeps on his or her person, but where is the fun in playing a class that revolves around scrolls and then only keeping the barest minimum to ensure one doesn't waste one's ether?

...Just my two cents.

[CMP]

My main problem is their shield skill. While it's great if the enemy doesn't have any immunities, if the enemy does have immunities then it could turn out to be just a nasty ether drain which the hero may not even want.

Especially considering that most bosses are immune to many of the scrolls and one may not want to waste an enormous amount of ether dumping loads of effects on a weaker enemy.

Of course, one could say that it would make the scholar be more choosy as to what scrolls as he keeps on his or her person, but where is the fun in playing a class that revolves around scrolls and then only keeping the barest minimum to ensure one doesn't waste one's ether?

...Just my two cents.

That's a good point.

Maybe if the enemy is immune to negative effects they deal damage with level + WP multiplied by the number of scrolls in their inventory?

[Vash the Stampede]

That's a good point.

Maybe if the enemy is immune to negative effects they deal damage with level + WP multiplied by the number of scrolls in their inventory?

What about dealing damage equal to something reliant on how many of the scrolls the enemy is immune to, seeing how an enemy could easily be immune to whichever scroll effects the scholar has by having lots of small effects rather than a huge immune to negative effects.

And what about friendly scrolls. There are a few scrolls, I believe there are some that give luck and makes the character deal poison by 10. You don't want those happening on an enemy and the scholar should be smart enough not to use it on them. Perhaps that could add to the damaging hit they deal if the enemy is immune to certain scroll effects.

[JimBee]

I already explained that Scholar's speciality is the scrolls, so we want to encourage their use.

Yeah, since their specialty is already scrolls, there's no need for the bonus of the lost ether in using them.

And what about friendly scrolls. There are a few scrolls, I believe there are some that give luck and makes the character deal poison by 10. You don't want those happening on an enemy and the scholar should be smart enough not to use it on them. Perhaps that could add to the damaging hit they deal if the enemy is immune to certain scroll effects.

This is a good point, the Scroll of Luck and Scroll of Inspiration would not be good if accidentally used in the SHIELD skill.

[Sandy]

Yeah, since their specialty is already scrolls, there's no need for the bonus of the lost ether in using them.

Sigh... This discussion is running in circles.

The whole point of me posting the class to this topic was to get suggestions on how to make the class more interesting. All ether-based classes can use Scrolls, so having a class that doesn't do much else is useless. That's why I grabbed onto Cutcobra's suggestion about the hit bonus.

This is a good point, the Scroll of Luck and Scroll of Inspiration would not be good if accidentally used in the SHIELD skill.

That's right, I did not take the rare positive effect scrolls into consideration.

My main problem is their shield skill. While it's great if the enemy doesn't have any immunities, if the enemy does have immunities then it could turn out to be just a nasty ether drain which the hero may not even want.

You're right, but on the other hand, an expert class shouldn't be good at every situation. But maybe I'll make some amends to the Shield-roll....

[Sandy]

Some more edits. I considered it, and added wands as a usable weapon type for the scholar. The mechanics behind the Shield-skill Lecture are now better described, and the skill no longer uses any scroll "in vain".

Scholar – This academic researcher wields the power of knowledge.

• Additional Health: 6
  
• Additional Ether: 9 (+1 per level for classes without base ether)
  
• Weapons: Scholars can use throwing weapons and wands. They are also talented with scrolls.
  
• Job Trait: Arcane Wisdom - Scholars can spend ether to get a hint on any puzzle or riddle that they encounter - the more ether they spend, the more revealing the hint is; Well-read – Scholars can use any scroll with a 2/3 success rate; Glossolalia – Scholars can speak any language and communicate with any sentient being.
  
• Battle Style: Scholastic – Scholars are most efficient with a vast selection of scrolls at hand.
  

1. SHIELD:

Lecture

– The scholar gives the target a proper teaching, using all the scrolls in his inventory at the same time, each with a 2/3 chance of success. Scrolls granting negative effects are aimed to the target, while those granting positive effects are aimed at the scholar. The scholar can only use as many scrolls as his remaining ether allows, starting from the one listed first in their inventory. The scrolls that grant pre-existing effects or ones the target is immune to will not be used.

2. CRITICAL EDUCATED HIT: The scholar attacks the target with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level and the amount of ether they have spent. (e.g. WP 15 x 2 + Level 30 + 5 ether spent = 65 damage)

3. EDUCATED HIT: The scholar attacks the target with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level and the amount of ether they have spent. (e.g. WP 15 + Level 30 + 5 ether spent = 50 damage)

4. MEDITATE: The scholar concentrates to regain 1 ether.

5. DAMAGE: The scholar is struck by the opponent’s attack.

6. SPECIAL GUARD: The scholar is struck by the opponent’s special skill, but has a ½ chance to be protected from any negative effects caused by it.