Heroica RPG - Expert Job Class Discussion

[Capt.JohnPaul]

My pictures actually depict the female and male versions of each class, if you haven't noticed...

But Brickdoctor's picture didn't either....

[LEGOman273]

My pictures actually depict the female and male versions of each class, if you haven't noticed...

Oh. I never really noticed before (some - such as Assassin - don't really look female), but now that you said that, I do. The Orc could be female as it she has armour covering any. . . Identifying anatomy. I'll put her in a dress, or something, if you want.

But Brickdoctor's picture didn't either....

You're right.

@Sandy:

If one loses their Great Reputation with a faction, will they lose their Expert Class?

@All:

I am redesigning this Class, and I plan to create a new group to give it out. Prelim name is "Brotherhood of Darkness". (Based a bit off the Sith.) I would also like to create a Light-counterpart. (Based off the Jedi.) Would this be a problem? This is not something that has been seen thus far in Heroica, and Brickdoctor's Quests are full of SW references.

Edited June 10, 2012 by LEGOman273

[Sandy]

If one loses their Great Reputation with a faction, will they lose their Expert Class?

Yes, at least in the case of my classes.

I am redesigning this Class, and I plan to create a new group to give it out. Prelim name is "Brotherhood of Darkness". (Based a bit off the Sith.) I would also like to create a Light-counterpart. (Based off the Jedi.) Would this be a problem? This is not something that has been seen thus far in Heroica, and Brickdoctor's Quests are full of SW references.

Yes, adding clichés like an evil dark brotherhood into this game is a problem. That's why you haven't seen something like that before.

I want to retain a certain level of maturity and originality in this game, even though there are multiple references to other works of fiction. From the get-go I have emphasized that this game isn't about the "battle of good and evil", but the struggle of humanity in the midst of chaos. Sure, there are evil things present in this game, but including a faction that is evil just for the sake of being evil is not something I wish to see in this game. When it comes to morals, the various shades of grey are more interesting than pure white or pitch black, anyway.

But Brickdoctor's picture didn't either....

He used plain smiley faces so I didn't know if the other one was intended to be a woman or not.

[Brickdoctor]

He used plain smiley faces so I didn't know if the other one was intended to be a woman or not.

Precisely. I usually try to use classic smileys for all my unimportant NPCs, to make them more generic.

[LEGOman273]

Yes, adding clichés like an evil dark brotherhood into this game is a problem. That's why you haven't seen something like that before.

I want to retain a certain level of maturity and originality in this game, even though there are multiple references to other works of fiction. From the get-go I have emphasized that this game isn't about the "battle of good and evil", but the struggle of humanity in the midst of chaos. Sure, there are evil things present in this game, but including a faction that is evil just for the sake of being evil is not something I wish to see in this game. When it comes to morals, the various shades of grey are more interesting than pure white or pitch black, anyway.

I didn't intend for them to be "Good" or "Evil"; simply Light-elemental and Darkness-elemental. (I only added the Light as a balance) I see what you mean, though. Some of the existing classes could be considered to be "Good" or "Evil" (Assassin, Black Knight, Necromancer - Evil; Paladin - Good), but they are not. This is what I would have done. I'll redesign the idea, though.

Edited June 10, 2012 by LEGOman273

[Capt.JohnPaul]

He used plain smiley faces so I didn't know if the other one was intended to be a woman or not.

But I hear women smile more than men. Does that mean BOTH of Doc's figures are women? Does that mean Lion Knight's armies are composed of women Amazonian super soldiers?

Hmm... Amazonian super soldiers.... *scribble scribble.*

[UsernameMDM]

For the Power Miner class you can incorporate pickaxes and shovels into its damage.

The Power Miner could:

* Have a trait that uses pickaxes to heavily damage rock monsters like in Quest 26 or

* Mimic the Cannoneer class but use pickaxes and shovels to calculate damage somehow

I thought about this but would rather not. I've incorporated a defensive trait that I think captures the class's mining essence and an offensive trait that sets it apart from the Cannoneer. I've also decided on a name change that will make more sense for the proposed class.

[Sandy]

I didn't intend for them to be "Good" or "Evil"; simply Light-elemental and Darkness-elemental. (I only added the Light as a balance) I see what you mean, though. Some of the existing classes could be considered to be "Good" or "Evil" (Assassin, Black Knight, Necromancer - Evil; Paladin - Good), but they are not. This is what I would have done. I'll redesign the idea, though.

Well, you did compare your intended factions to the Sith and the Jedi. If those are not the epitome of a battle of good vs. evil, then I don't know what is.

You certainly have your creative juices flowing, I see. Sorry that I've knocked down so many of your ideas, but I've got to take care of the big picture for this game.

[LEGOman273]

Well, you did compare your intended factions to the Sith and the Jedi. If those are not the epitome of a battle of good vs. evil, then I don't know what is.

You certainly have your creative juices flowing, I see. Sorry that I've knocked down so many of your ideas, but I've got to take care of the big picture for this game.

I simply meant it as a Parallel to the Light/Darkness realtionship of the Classes, and to their chosen clothing (darker colors for Darkness, lighter colors for Light). Neither would be "Good" or "Evil". They would be counterparts - two sides of the same coin - with one unable to exist without the other - yet their differences drive them apart.

It's alright; I need C&C to improve my ideas. Is there any element of the Dark/Demonic Hunter that should definitely stay in the class description as I revise it?

Edited June 10, 2012 by LEGOman273

[Myrddyn]

Sandy (and any other QMs) - I don't suppose Thug could be unlocked by failing a certain amount of quests?

Potentially having heroes trying to fail quests would be... interesting.

Probably wouldnt work, just throwing up the idea.

zakura - Not cocoa-mancer?

Battle Style: Blood Chocolate shaping- The Heptomancer uses blood hot chocolate to deal attacks

Revised Thug:

Thug

Additional health + 15

Weapons: Thugs use clubs, maces, axes, hammers and spears.

Job traits: Flee - (see Rogue),

Concealed Blade - Thugs can replace an artifact with a dagger and gets extra power equal to the weapon power of the dagger, (e.g, for a critical hit - WP 15 x 2[=30] + Level 30[=60] + WP 7 [dagger]) =67

Look At Me! - When the Thug is first in the battle order, he gets the enemies attention, giving his allies more time to prepare their attacks. (This makes all allies LUCKY).

Battle style: Dirty - Thugs win their fights any way they can.

1. SHIELD: Taking you with me - The thug is Damaged by his opponent. However, he also deals damage equal to his weapon power multiplied by 8, plus his level. (WP 15 x 8 + Level 30 = 150 damage)

2. CRITICAL HIT: The thug strikes for damage equal to their weapon power multiplied by 2 added to their level. (WP 15 x 2 + Level 30 = 60 damage)

3. HIT: The thug strikes for damage equal to their weapon power added to their level. (WP 15 + Level 30 = 45 damage)Perhaps Afraid for 1 turn?

4. CHEAP SHOT: The thug throws dirt in his targets face, stunning them for the remainder of the round.

5. DAMAGE: The Thug is struck with his opponents attack.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE: The Thug is struck with the opponents special skill.

Changes:

Intimidation has been replaced by Look At Me! - When the Thug is first in the battle order, he gets the enemies attention, giving his allies more time to prepare their attacks (This makes all allies LUCKY).

Natural Respite has been replaced by Concealed Blade - Thugs can replace an artifact with a dagger and get extra power equal to the weapon power of the dagger. (e.g, for a critical hit - WP 15 x 2[=30] + Level 30[=60] + WP 7 [dagger]) =67

Ability to use daggers (as primary weapons) has been removed.

Stunned effect for critical hits has been removed.

Comments and stuff welcome.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Myrddyn

[JimBee]

Sandy could you please explain why you wouldn't accept Werewolf as a job class? I think it's becoming more desirable but now you say you're reluctant to have it in the game...

[Waterbrick Down]

Uhm, anyway, it looks good, but I do believe the fact that the QM has to judge wether or not and how something works can get a bit complicated, so I am not sure how I feel about that.

I know there is a complication factor in the role in that it is QM subjective, but that is also what gives the role it's uniqueness, I have another version that is not QM subjective but I wanted to throw this one out there first as it embodied the unboundless imaginative aspect of the Illusionist.

Bard looks way too much like Minstrel in my opinion, and Illusionist has a similar problem with being able to cast negative effects. I like the illusion thing, though, although too nice of a QM would kind of mess up the system. Although, I think Sandy mentioned being able to pick up other Minstrel songs during quests, and all of the legends you listed would be really cool to use in-battle at some point.

The reason that the Illusionist resembles the Minstrel is due to the fact that I used the same preliminary formatting to avoid explaining it in a confusing manner. While I truely enjoy the uniqueness of the Minstrel I feel we don't really have a lot of supportive roles aside from clerics for healing and now the Minstrel for Party buffing, the Illusionist would serve as a support role that speciallizing in debuffing enemy targets. Again the role would require a fair QM that can judge whether or not an illusion seems plausible, i.e. what type is the enemy, what is it's level, is it the last remaining enemy on the field or is surrounded by its cronies, as an expert class, there will not be a lot of Illusionists wandering around so that should hopefully not discourage QM's from taking up the challenge.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on Illusionist as well. Bringing in roleplay to battle is definitely creative, but I'm not sure how well that would work out for some players and QMs. Not everyone is an expert at roleplaying, like you (WBD) said earlier, so having damage dealt be arbitrary to one's (specifically the QM) own opinion might cause problems. Yes, Expert Classes in general will be obscure and rare enough to do unorthodox things like these, but still I think the battle system should be concrete.

Otherwise, I think this is a good class. It seems like a stylized scroll mage, which is good because scrolls seem to be somewhat rare. Replicate seems a little overpowered to me, because a Miss role should be somewhat negative (like Counter where the player takes damage too), whereas Replicate seems more like a Shield skill. Perhaps it should cost more ether (say, 5), and would only occur when the Illusionist chooses to use ether (if not the attack would just be treated as a Miss). So:

MISS/REPLICATE: The Illusionist misses their attack. Optionally the Illusionist may spend 5 ether to create a duplicate of him/her-self that will take the next strike against the Illusionist before dissipating. Only 2 duplicates may exist at a time.

Replicate is very fitting to the class, though.

Adressing your first point being that it is an expert class, not everyone will want to play an Illusionist, the class is geared towards players who would like to play a role-playing centered class and will probably not have any appeal for those who don't, similar to how clerics or knights don't appeal to certain players. The class is similar to a Scroll Mage, however it is not dependent upon a 50/50 chance but upon the player's roleplaying expertise and the effects can only be maintained by a steady supply of ether. I like your change to Replicate as I also thought is was a little OP for a miss roll, though it was one of the first things I came up with when designing the class.

WBD - Swashbuckler:

I think roll 4 Counter should be moved to roll 5, and a new roll 4 should be something like:

Taunt - target enemy deals and recieves double damage next round.

Just thinking about the snobbery & possible trash talking a swashbuckler would engage in.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll definately consider including this as it seems fitting for the class more so than the average counter.

@ Sandy, it's probably been a few pages since I first introduced the Illusionist, so if you have any thoughts, particulary concerning the Role-playing aspect, I'd be appreciative.

[Professor Flitwick]

Sandy could you please explain why you wouldn't accept Werewolf as a job class? I think it's becoming more desirable but now you say you're reluctant to have it in the game...

I believe Sandy said it was because it would inflict with the main story line. I can't speak directly for Sandy, but if you'll cast your mind back to when the pictures of all of the Major Families were released, you might recall why a Werewolf character-class would cause conflicts with the overall story.

[Sandy]

Sandy could you please explain why you wouldn't accept Werewolf as a job class? I think it's becoming more desirable but now you say you're reluctant to have it in the game...

Werewolves play a significant part in the main storyline, so it's illogical that someone could become a werewolf by choice and one day stop being one (when they move on to other job classes). In other words, "werewolf" is not a job, at least not in this game.

@ Sandy, it's probably been a few pages since I first introduced the Illusionist, so if you have any thoughts, particulary concerning the Role-playing aspect, I'd be appreciative.

I like the idea behind the class, it being an effect-inducer, but the most problematic point with the class is the heavy emphasis on the QM's jurisdiction. I believe Quest Masters should remain as neutral as possible when it comes to the battles in this game (of course true objectivity can never be reached). I understand you want to encourage roleplay, but I think it would cause needless friction between the player and the QM if the QM had to decide how strong the player's hit would be, or whether the effect hits the target or not. As a QM, I would not be comfortable making such decisions for the players.

It's not good if the QM gets "emotionally invested" in the battle, as it may distort the fairness of the battles.

What do other experienced QMs think about this?

[LEGOman273]

Werewolves play a significant part in the main storyline, so it's illogical that someone could become a werewolf by choice and one day stop being one (when they move on to other job classes). In other words, "werewolf" is not a job, at least not in this game.

I like the idea behind the class, it being an effect-inducer, but the most problematic point with the class is the heavy emphasis on the QM's jurisdiction. I believe Quest Masters should remain as neutral as possible when it comes to the battles in this game (of course true objectivity can never be reached). I understand you want to encourage roleplay, but I think it would cause needless friction between the player and the QM if the QM had to decide how strong the player's hit would be, or whether the effect hits the target or not. As a QM, I would not be comfortable making such decisions for the players.

It's not good if the QM gets "emotionally invested" in the battle, as it may distort the fairness of the battles.

What do other experienced QMs think about this?

I'm not an experianced QM, but I do have an opinion:

I think that these effects should be chosen via a dice roll. There is a reason why dice, not QMs, are used in RPGs to determine effects. It would be more fair to the players if dice were used. Additionally, there are six effect-choices, so using a die would be quite easy.

[Fred Daniel Yam]

Here's an idea:

Chaos Knight

These warriors turned away from order and follow the demons and chaos.

Health +5

Ether +6

Fighting Style: Hammering. Just slamming hit after hit at enemies with the power of Chaos

Job Traits:

Servant of Chaos: Cannot deal damage to unread

Diplomacy

Weapons: Swords, Shields, Axes, Polearms, Greatswords.

Shield/Banner of Chaos: Takes all damage dealt to the party that turn and is revived with 1/2 health next turn.

Miss: Misses

Hit: Hits

Crit Hit/Chaotic Strike: Hits all enemies for the amount of health he/she has left.

Damage: Damaged

Special Damage/Chaotic Shield: All damage taken by the hero is nullified but they cannot attack next turn.

[UsernameMDM]

Here is my updated Mining Engineer. Inspired by Sandy's suggestion, the name comes from the Boulder Blaster Power Miners set (the tank one with all the dynamite).

Comments & critiques are welcomed:

Boulder Bombardier

Additional Health: +10

Additional Ether: ~

Weapons: Axes, Maces, Clubs, Hammers, and Hand Cannons

Job Traits:

Natural Respite (See Barbarian)

Go BOOM!: Boulder Bombardiers are adept at explosives causing elemental bombs to do 5 times their normal damage

Hard as a Rock: Boulder Bombardiers are as tough as the rock they conquer giving them immunity to Earth based attacks, Stunned, Petrified and Poisoned effects

Battle Style: Mountain Mover - Boulder Bombardiers are acclimated with the harsh environment of the mines and utilize their explosive mining skills in battle.

1. SHIELD - EUREKA!: The Boulder Bombardier attacks enemy targets with strength equal to weapon power only and receive gold equal to their level for each enemy hit. Number of enemies attacked it determined by a separate dice roll (6 enemies, WP 25 = 25 damage each enemy, level 30 = 180 gold).

2. CRITICAL HIT - DYNAMITE!: The Boulder Bombardier lobs sticks of dynamite at all enemy targets causing damage equal to weapon power added to their level and has a 50/50 chance to add the Stunned effect to all enemies (WP 25 + level 30 = 55 damage + 50/50 Stunned).

3. HIT: The Boulder Bombardier attacks the target with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level (WP 25 + level 30 = 55 damage).

4. BOOBY TRAP - The Boulder Bombardier rigs an explosive trap in front of the party.  The next time an enemy would deal damage or perform any action to the party or a party member, the enemy instead takes damage equal to the Boulder Bombadier’s WP and does not deal any damage to the party (WP 25 = 25 damage).

5. DAMAGE: The Boulder Bombardier is struck by their opponent's damage.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE: The Boulder Bombardier is struck by their opponent's special skill.

[JimBee]

I believe Sandy said it was because it would inflict with the main story line. I can't speak directly for Sandy, but if you'll cast your mind back to when the pictures of all of the Major Families were released, you might recall why a Werewolf character-class would cause conflicts with the overall story.

Werewolves play a significant part in the main storyline, so it's illogical that someone could become a werewolf by choice and one day stop being one (when they move on to other job classes). In other words, "werewolf" is not a job, at least not in this game.

Right, thanks Flitwick and Sandy for pointing this out. I didn't realize this, so no interference to the story was intended.

It's not good if the QM gets "emotionally invested" in the battle, as it may distort the fairness of the battles.

What do other experienced QMs think about this?

I agree, as I said here.

Bringing in roleplay to battle is definitely creative, but I'm not sure how well that would work out for some players and QMs. Not everyone is an expert at roleplaying, like you (WBD) said earlier, so having damage dealt be arbitrary to one's (specifically the QM) own opinion might cause problems. Yes, Expert Classes in general will be obscure and rare enough to do unorthodox things like these, but still I think the battle system should be concrete.

Otherwise, I think this is a good class. It seems like a stylized scroll mage, which is good because scrolls seem to be somewhat rare. Replicate seems a little overpowered to me, because a Miss role should be somewhat negative (like Counter where the player takes damage too), whereas Replicate seems more like a Shield skill. Perhaps it should cost more ether (say, 5), and would only occur when the Illusionist chooses to use ether (if not the attack would just be treated as a Miss). So:

MISS/REPLICATE: The Illusionist misses their attack. Optionally the Illusionist may spend 5 ether to create a duplicate of him/her-self that will take the next strike against the Illusionist before dissipating. Only 2 duplicates may exist at a time.

Replicate is very fitting to the class, though.

Username MDM: I do like that class, but there are a few changes I would make.

- Being immune to earth-based attacks is pretty pointless, IMO. Enemies usually don't have elemental attacks, and when they do a QM would probably find a way around using earth moves.

- Eureka seems under-powered and uncharacteristic to me. Classes like the Assassin and Raider can do the same thing, but better. I would suggest changing this somehow.

- Your wording on "enemy targets" is a little confusing. Do these attack affect all enemies in battle, or just the enemy targeted for that roll?

I do like the Booby Trap move, though.

[Waterbrick Down]

Ok, so here's the revamp of the Illusionist, I already went through 5 revisions before I put it up here, but I'll try the more concrete version this time round.

Illusionists are first and foremost, performers. They are known for their wit, charm, and unbounded imaginations and possess the ability to bring their and others' very fantasies to life.

• Health Bonus: +11
  
• Ether Bonus: +3 (+1 per level for classes without base ether)
  
• Weapons: Staves, Wands, Daggers.
  
• Job traits: Figment - Instead of fighting, the illusionist can create a spell that negatively effects an enemy stats (see List of Misconception effects for reference), Misconception - The Illusionist may cast a deception that affects any of the 5 senses for the cost of 1 ether, Flee (see Rogue)
  
• Battle style: Conjury – the Illusionist utilizes its creativity to craft spells to disorient and sow confusion and mayhem amongst their enemies.

1. SHIELD: Bafflement – The Illusionist casts an astounding marvel of deception causing all opponents to harm themselves equal to their level times a factor of 2 for good role-playing and causing the

confused

effect to all opponents.

2. CRITICAL HIT/GREATER ILLUSION: The Illusionist attacks the target with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level. Alternatively the Illusionist can use 1 ether to craft an illusion that will disorient the enemy opening themselves up to a gauranteed critical hit x2 during the next round by the first hero that targets them.

3. HIT/ILLUSION: The Illusionist attacks the target with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level. Alternatively the Illusionist can use 1 ether to craft an illusion that will disorient the enemy opening themselves up to a gauranteed hit x2 during the next round by the first hero that targets them.

4. REPLICATE: The Illusionist uses 5 ether to create a duplicate of him/her-self that will take the next strike against the Illusionist before dissipating. Only 2 duplicates may exist at a time.

5. DAMAGE: The Illusionist is struck by the opponent's attack.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE: The Illusionist is struck by the opponent’s special attack.

Figment spells require 1 ether to maintain per round, the initial casting's effectiveness is dependent upon the target's level.

Target is 10 Levels < Illusionist's Level: 1/6 Chance of success

Target is 5 Levels < Illusionist's Level: 4/6 Chance of success

Target's Level = Illusionist's Level: 3/6 Chance of success

Target is 5 Levels > Illusionist's Level: 2/6 Chance of success

Target is 10 Levels > Illusionist's Level: 1/6 Chance of success

List of Figment Spell effects:

Blinded

Afraid

Slowed

Enamored

Confused

Changes:

• Illusion and Great Illusion no longer are QM subjective and actually only open an enemy up to a garaunteed hit by a more powerful party member.
  
• Replicate now costs 5 ether
  
• Figment Spells are no longer QM subjective, instead their effectiveness is dependent upon the targets level, i.e. a boss would be more difficult to deceive than a low leveled minion.
  

Notes: The Illusionist is more of a support class now, with quite a few unique traits, mainly the ability to open enemy's up to a gauranteed more powerful hit from an ally Party member, the ability to replicate itself, and cast negative spells that are effective against low level minions. Also note that unlike a Scroll Mage, once a Figment has been cast it only requires an initial roll for effectiveness and is maintained from a supply of ether after that. Any further thoughts, or is it now too complicated?

Also, this is now the more official Swashbuckler idea, so Legoman273 feel free to replace the first two versions with this one. Additionally, the "Great Reputation with Ve'er Town Watch" is just a place holder for anyone who would want to use the class for one of their factions.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Waterbrick Down

[CMP]

A lot more balanced, in my mind, but the Illusion and Greater Illusion have me...baffled. It guarantees the next attack on it will be a hit (Critical for greater), and doubles the damage? I think that's kind of overpowered, personally, especially for only one ether. Replicate and Bafflement are both really cool, though.

[Sandy]

I made a few significant changes to some of my expert classes:

CANNONEER now has a "craft bomb" instead of "aim/aimed bombard", allowing them to create a random bomb into their inventory. This reduces their damage-dealing accuracy, but might also keep them in stock in long quests without any chance to shop for more bombs.

ALCHEMIST's "mixtures" are now items that are added to their inventory. However, the class also loses its ether and healing abilities in favor of getting more items to use with the "instant items" trait. This makes consumables their true expertise. Also, instead of the "healing" trait they now have "natural respite".

CHI MONK gets the alchemist's healing skills, along with the "healing" trait (but loses "natural respite").

I'll post the updated classes later, as I still need to go over Necromancer and Beast Warrior. I'm keeping Minstrel and Dragoon as they are.

[CMP]

Darn. I don't quite understand why the healing and natural respite were swapped out, but I suppose it's fair if consumables are supposed to be the focus of Alchemist.

[TheBoyWonder]

I would love a gladiator or werewolf class so much.

[JimBee]

Darn. I don't quite understand why the healing and natural respite were swapped out, but I suppose it's fair if consumables are supposed to be the focus of Alchemist.

I feel the same way. IMO Natural Respite makes much more sense with the Chi Monk, and the healing with the Alchemist.

I do like the craft skill given to the Bombardier, though.

EDIT: I noticed that the Chi Monk has both Iron Fist and Spellcasting. Essentially, aren't these the same thing? Plus Chi Monks can't cast spells in battle, so maybe spellcasting could be changed to something else? Just my two cents.

I would love a gladiator or werewolf class so much.

Of course someone with a character named Lycan would...

[Scubacarrot]

Healing to the Chi Monk is a great idea, the class was a little bland for my tastes, before, this will add more to it's desirability. As for Natural Respite for the Alchemist, I'm not so sure, It does not fit, I feel, perhaps it should get a new trait, or at least a different one than this? (More powerful consumables? bombs that do more damage? Discount at Portia's Potion Shack?)

The Craft skill for the bombardier is also a good idea, I think.