Heroica RPG - Expert Job Class Discussion

[Flipz]

I like that too. That'd be a super cool way to give rewards to certain characters within a quest, and could be very much based on RP and choices (much like the Weather Mage and Harlot). It would also give the different Avengers awesome different flavors without any difference to the class itself.

Trying so hard not to make a Marvel reference here.

That said, I too like the idea of Avenger being bestowed by different factions associated with different deities, for exactly the reasons Zepher outlined above.

[CMP]

I like it.

Not sure if I posted it last year during that time I posted like a dozen Expert Classes, but I had a similar damage-focused class called Ascetic which would spend ether to channel Spirits and bestow them with abilities like these Oaths do. I found the idea of 'changing stances' so to speak pretty interesting.

[Waterbrick Down]

I like it.

Not sure if I posted it last year during that time I posted like a dozen Expert Classes, but I had a similar damage-focused class called Ascetic which would spend ether to channel Spirits and bestow them with abilities like these Oaths do. I found the idea of 'changing stances' so to speak pretty interesting.

I've got another one that's in the works that takes that idea into account. I'll see about incorporating it. I'd actually like to catalog all the ideas we've seen so far, seems like we sometimes reinvent the wheel. Might edit my first post to include an index, don't know if there's any chance Sandy could delete the first 2 since LEGOman273 has been banned for a while now.

On the subject of the Avenger (anyone got a better name?) how does the balance between offense and defense seem. Do people think one style is more effective than the other? As we advance I've noticed SP is becoming a much more important stat so I wanted to make the offensive style as equally appealing, but I'm not sure if I went too far.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Waterbrick Down

[Masked Builder]

I think the name is pretty fitting WD, much like the Avenger in Dungeons and Dragons.

[Lind Whisperer]

On the subject of the Avenger (anyone got a better name?)...

What if it was "Avenger of _____," with the _____ being replaced by the name of whatever deity the character avenges in?

For instance:

Vindsval Halfborn, Half-Giant Avenger of The Wanderer

Of course, now that I see it in practice, it seems a bit clunky...

Edited January 10, 2015 by Lind Whisperer

[Waterbrick Down]

What if it was "Avenger of _____," with the _____ being replaced by the name of whatever deity the character avenges in?

For instance:

Of course, now that I see it in practice, it seems a bit clunky...

Have you seen some of the titles of characters these days?

[Myrddyn]

Oh man I love it - especially the Orc Avenger standing next to the Paladin. Plus it can use axes, which is always nice to see as someone with a character with a nice axe. Does the Avenger still have 1/6 chance to avoid damage if not using a shield? I think the offense/defense options are really well balanced.

Avenger is a good name, I think, the only name I can think to suggest if you're looking for a different name is Champion.

[Waterbrick Down]

Oh man I love it - especially the Orc Avenger standing next to the Paladin. Plus it can use axes, which is always nice to see as someone with a character with a nice axe. Does the Avenger still have 1/6 chance to avoid damage if not using a shield? I think the offense/defense options are really well balanced.

Avenger is a good name, I think, the only name I can think to suggest if you're looking for a different name is Champion.

Sorry, no shield = no deflected damage. Champion seems a little too generic, sort of missing that divine retributive aspect, just my perception though.

[Khorne]

Wow! That Avenger class is really awesome. That'd definitely be a class I'd like to play with as Eric. It fits him really well . I like the idea of choosing between a defensive or offensive role in the party, plus the concept of swearing Oaths is just sooooo friggin' awesome .

Probably the reward for certain religious orders, sort of like how the Rito can train Winged Warriors. So a character would be associated with a certain deity, i.e. an Avenger of Ennoc, or an Avenger of Tarok.

I like the idea, but what if your character doesn't have anything to do with the deity in question? E.g: Boomingham gets chosen for an Orc Quest somehow and the reward for completing the Quest is the Avenger Class. I hardly see Boomingham as an Avenger of Tarok. Same goes for my character or Vindisval, I don't really seem them as Avengers of Ennoc or whatever, which will probably the deity or religious order most encountered during quests.

Or did you just mean that you can unlock the class by doing something for say, the Paladin Order, but then choose a deity of your own choice (not necessarily the god of the order)?

For the name, maybe "Avatar of *insert god*" or "Incarnate of *insert god*"? Besides those, "Champion" is also the sole other name I can come up with.

Really liking the idea !

[Sandy]

Key Idea: Oaths, dual roles (offensive vs. defensive).

Design Notes: Going after a class whose mechanics and strategy are dependent upon the party make-up and their allies taking damage. Dependent upon their equipment and the oath they use they can either be geared towards damage output (double weapon power, Oath of Retribution, Dread Visage) or damage mitigation (high SP, Oath of Protection, and Shield Bash). The class is based upon a similar one found in D&D, but the idea of dealing damage or negating it when an ally is attacked is actually a trademark among defensive classes in RPG's.

I like it. It is similar to Regulator with the dual role, but instead of chaos and order its offense and defense.

My only worry is that there seems to be too much going on in the rolls. Especially the negative effects caused by some of the rolls seem to be excessive, making the class more complex than it needs to be.

I've got another one that's in the works that takes that idea into account. I'll see about incorporating it. I'd actually like to catalog all the ideas we've seen so far, seems like we sometimes reinvent the wheel. Might edit my first post to include an index, don't know if there's any chance Sandy could delete the first 2 since LEGOman273 has been banned for a while now.

I couldn't hide the first post, but I deleted the text and only left a title.

On the subject of the Avenger (anyone got a better name?) how does the balance between offense and defense seem. Do people think one style is more effective than the other? As we advance I've noticed SP is becoming a much more important stat so I wanted to make the offensive style as equally appealing, but I'm not sure if I went too far.

They seem pretty balanced, and what I like the most is that the player can decide for themselves whether to focus on offense or defense, it isn't automated.

Avenger is a good name, I think, the only name I can think to suggest if you're looking for a different name is Champion.

Champion came to my mind as well, especially with the divine aspect. But Avenger is more accurate, I concur.

Vindicator would be a synonym, albeit a rather fancy one.

[Flipz]

I approve of the name Vindicator, it would even out the Expert Class list.

Here's my first truly original proposal ( ), the Mystic Warden. As I mentioned earlier, this would be a Master Class to complement Pie's Virtuoso:

Mystic Warden

knight – mage – ranger

These mystical defenders focus fire on their foes with blade, spell, and arrow.

· Additional Health: +10

· Additional Ether: +20

· Weapons: Mystic Wardens wield weapons suitable for knights, mages, and rangers, including gems, scrolls and shields.

· Job Traits: Spellcasting (See Mage), Gossolalia (See Prophet), Arcane Wisdom (see Scholar/Archmage), Enchanting Personality - Mystic Wardens can cast minor charms on the weak-minded to get what they want, Mystic Veil - Mystic Wardens are immune to any element or negative Scroll effect they are currently casting, Fountain of Ether - Any other Ether-user in the party may draw from the Mystic Warden's Ether pool if they run out of their own Ether.

· Battle Style: Arcane: Mystic Wardens use powerful but unconventional methods, increasing their own strength to take down foes.

1. SHIELD:

Omnislash:

The Mystic Warden enchants their weapon with one of the elements available to them at the cost of 1 Ether, then attacks the target twice and every other enemy once. If the target survives and the Mystic Warden has Ether remaining, the Mystic Warden then spends an additional 1 Ether to Mark the target, causing all damage to and from the enemy party during the next Round to be redirected to the target.

2. CRITICAL HIT/GREAT SPELL/CRITICAL ENCHANTED HIT: The Mystic Warden attacks or spends 1 Ether to cast an elemental spell equal to two times their weapon power added to their level. Alternatively, the Mystic Warden can spend 1 Ether to enchant their weapon with an element available to them and attack, dealing damage with the weapon equal to their critical attack.

3. HIT/SPELL/ENCHANTED HIT: The Mystic Warden attacks or spends 1 Ether to cast an elemental spell equal to their weapon power added to their level. Alternatively, the Mystic Warden can spend 1 Ether to enchant their weapon with an element available to them and attack, dealing damage with the weapon equal to their attack.

4. AIM/SPELL AIM/ENCHANTMENT: The Mystic Warden attacks or spends 1 Ether to cast an elemental spell equal to their weapon power. Alternatively, the Mystic Warden can spend Ether to permanently enhance their weapon or shield, increasing the chosen piece of equipment's power by one at a cost of the power of the weapon or shield after the enchantment; if there is not enough Ether, nothing happens.

5. DEFENDED MIRROR DAMAGE: The Mystic Warden is struck by the opponent's attack. The power of the Mystic Warden's shield decreases the effect of the attack and has a 1/6 chance of blocking the attack completely; if the Mystic Warden survives the attack, they reflect it to cause the same amount of damage to the opponent regardless of the opponent's defense or distance.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE: The Mystic Warden is struck by the opponent’s special skill.

Obviously still needs a lot of work, but I wanted to throw the concept out there. My main debate is whether or not to include the spell rolls at all; I'm leaning heavily towards "not", since the Mystic Warden can keep their ranged elemental ability by using Ranger weapons or broomsticks, and it would make the class a lot more unique. I'm also thinking that Aim needs to be replaced with something more unique, perhaps a reverse version of Weather Mage's Mist (i.e. the Mystic Warden becomes immune to all magic/absorbs all elements until the end of the next Round), or else an effect-based variation (i.e. the Mystic Warden carves a magical rune into the enemy that nullifies their effect immunities until the end of the next Round). (Or we could go the simple route and give it Archmage's Absorb Ether, now that I think about it it would be both fitting and useful. ) I very much think that Enchantment needs to depend on whether or not the MW is taking the option to enchant their weapon or not, though; I feel that making it a choice is important.

[Waterbrick Down]

Take 2. Name change, I'm totally digging Vindicator. Removed the Blinding ability from SUBDUING HIT

Vindicator (Trained by certain religious orders)

These holy warriors embody the justice of their deity dwelling upon this world.

· Additional Health: +15

· Weapons: Vindicators often wield bladed two-handed weapons such as Longswords, Greatswords, Scythes, and Axes, they are also able to wield shields.

· Job Traits: Intimidation (See Black Knight), Devine Focus – Vindicator’s WP doubles if they do not use a shield, Oath – After hitting a target the Vindicator may swear an oath that grants them certain abilities

· Battle Style: Avenging: Vindicators fight in a manner so as to protect their allies and dole out punishment in the name of their deity.

1. SHIELD:

Supernal Smite:

The reality of the Vindicator’s deity asserts itself in a terrifying display of power dealing damage to the target and the target of the Vindicator’s current oath equal to four times the Vindicator’s weapon power added to their level.

2. SUBDUING HIT: The Vindicator deals damage equal to two times their weapon power added to their level. Additionally the Vindicator may choose to swear an oath against the target.

3. HIT: The Vindicator deals damage equal to their weapon power added to their level. Additionally the Vindicator may choose to swear an oath against the target.

4. SHIELD BASH/DREAD VISAGE: The Vindicator fails to attack the target with their weapon, but instead bashes their shield at the enemy, causing damage equal to the power of their shield and stunning the enemy. If the Vindicator is not using a shield the target quakes and becomes fragile from the Vindicator’s holy anger. Additionally the Vindicator may choose to swear an oath against the target.

5. DEFLECTED DAMAGE/Damage: The Vindicator is struck by the opponent’s attack. The Vindicator’s shield has a 1/6 chance of blocking the attack completely if they are using a shield.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE: The Vindicator is struck by the opponent’s special skill.

Oaths:

After a Vindicator strikes a target they may choose to swear an oath against their enemy. Only one oath may be sworn at a time. If the Vindicator strikes a new target they may choose to end their previous oath and invoke a new one.

Oath of Protection: Whenever the targeted enemy would do damage to an ally the Vindicator steps in and takes ½ the damage.

Oath of Retribution: Whenever the targeted enemy would do damage to an ally the Vindicator steps in and deals a Free Hit equal to their Level.

----------

Artwork for style ideas: Example 1, Example 2, Example 3, Example 4

Thoughts on Vindicators of higher levels gaining more oath usage, i.e. Level 40-50 a Vindicator may have two active oaths of the same type in use, Level 50-60 a Vindicator may have three active oaths of the same type in use, etc?

Also concerning Khorne's question, I'd be fine either way. I like the idea of certain religious orders training characters to be Vindicators of a certain deity it establishes a relationship between a player and the world a QM has created, but I can see the point about availability of certain deities, in which case maybe we as QM's should be more versatile on the religious orders we allow our parties to interact with.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Waterbrick Down

[Sandy]

Take 2. Name change, I'm totally digging Vindicator. Removed the Blinding ability from SUBDUING HIT

Then its just a normal CRITICAL HIT, isn't it?

I also think the job trait "Devine [sic] Focus" should be called "Two-handed Grip" or "Zweihänder Grip", because that's what it basically is.

But yeah, I can be anal about names and terms sometimes.

Thoughts on Vindicators of higher levels gaining more oath usage, i.e. Level 40-50 a Vindicator may have two active oaths of the same type in use, Level 50-60 a Vindicator may have three active oaths of the same type in use, etc?

Sounds a bit complex, but perhaps it would add to the appeal of the class.

Also concerning Khorne's question, I'd be fine either way. I like the idea of certain religious orders training characters to be Vindicators of a certain deity it establishes a relationship between a player and the world a QM has created, but I can see the point about availability of certain deities, in which case maybe we as QM's should be more versatile on the religious orders we allow our parties to interact with.

I don't see a problem. Just like a Paladin doesn't have to be Ennoc's worshipper or a Druid one of Sylvania's, a Vindicator wouldn't have to be tied to a single deity or religious group. Rather some group could give the hero access to the class, but the hero can decide which deity to become a champion of at the Training Room.

On another topic: What are people's opinions about offering gender-specific classes? Not that I have any concrete plans set in stone, but I have a quest focusing on the Sisters of Danab coming up, and I was toying with the idea of a pure healer class that would only be available to female characters (i.e. "Sister"). I might just keep it for the NPCs, though.

[Asphalt]

Historicaly there have always been gender specific orders. I think it would be fine.

[Kintobor]

Maybe male's that get access to the class have to cross dress?

I think it's a little too much. I'm fine with items being gender inclusive, since it makes sense at times, (as much as some would want that Catsuit. ) but for a class, I think it's not the best solution.

[bionicle_fanatic]

-Raises hand- I think gender-specific classes are good, especially if they're Prestige Classes (Is that the right term? [:P] I know it's right for SWRPG, but... [:P])

[Scubacarrot]

I think Gender specific classes are fine, but if there's a female specific class, maybe also have a male specific class at some point?

[CMP]

I don't know about gender-specific classes. Oftentimes they fill a real niche and there's no point in having even further limitations on who can access it.

[JimBee]

I like the a Vindicator class (and the name). Despite the intended theme for it, I would definitely want to take Hybros down that path ( he's not really one to worship or swear oaths to any god, but of course that or the class can be flexible). I would really go either way on the choice of offense or defense. Some characters like Hybros are really offense-based and would benefit greatly from not using a shield, but on the other hand it's easy enough to equip a shield and have characters like Hoke absorb damage. I'd like to see more oaths added to the list, perhaps in a way similar to that of battle song acquisition.

I do remember CallMePie's class with the different "markers" from a while back, which the oaths reminded me of. If it's in the index or this topic at all, I'd like to go back and look at it.

One note about categorizing classes by their role in battle is that a class can fill many roles. For example, Chi Monk can debuff enemies with scrolls and buff themselves before dealing considerable damage. I feel that Witches and Alchemists are also sort of jack-of-all-trades classes.

[Duvors]

To tell the truth, I severely dislike the idea of gender specific classes, it seems like a ridiculous thing for Heroica, for say, D&D or Pathfinder it would work, but considering the style of the rules for this game I feel as if it's too exclusive, in fact most of the Expert classes are far too exclusive already, the only ones that are reasonably accessible are the ones that Sandy has made. To date Pikeman has only been offered twice, Winged Warrior and Regulator once, and although Infiltrator has been offered twice the chances of anyone actually getting it is incredibly slim.

[Flipz]

To tell the truth, I severely dislike the idea of gender specific classes, it seems like a ridiculous thing for Heroica, for say, D&D or Pathfinder it would work, but considering the style of the rules for this game I feel as if it's too exclusive, in fact most of the Expert classes are far too exclusive already, the only ones that are reasonably accessible are the ones that Sandy has made. To date Pikeman has only been offered twice, Winged Warrior and Regulator once, and although Infiltrator has been offered twice the chances of anyone actually getting it is incredibly slim.

While a lot of these could stand to be offered more (*cough*Harlot, Skirmisher, Winged Warrior, Infiltrator*cough*), I have to disagree with regard to Regulator; in that case, it was always meant to be an incredibly specific award to a very specific group of people for participating in a very specific plotline. Unlike most (if not all) of the other Expert Classes, Regulator doesn't represent a profession or type of fighter so much as it does a remembrance of certain people fighting certain enemies at a certain time. I'd actually be a little disappointed if I saw a bunch of Regulator NPCs out there, because to my mind the class is so incredibly specifically tied to Felton and Hans. (Yes, I know O'blix is a thing, but I'm still holding out for Zepher to find some way to retcon that character into the Wren backstory, perhaps that Hans and Felton developed their final fighting style after meeting him in between 38 and 53 or something.) If Hans had lived and continued to put out Quests, maybe I'd be singing a different tune, but to me it makes sense that only those who knew him in life get to emulate his style after death.

Having said that, I wouldn't be opposed to a Sisters of Danab class that's gender-locked, and I don't think we need a male counterpart to balance it out. The Sisters of Danab are a group that have already been well-established in lore to be female-only, so it would only make sense for them to refuse to train those who are not women. We don't need to make a counterpart class for males, since we already have more than a dozen other classes that are open to male characters already--male characters can buy a Trickster's Mask of Gender Swap (and be required to wear it at all times in order to continue using the class), or else just train in a different class.

[Lind Whisperer]

Speaking of single-gender classes, I imagine Miko would probably be single gender also, since it's grammatically female*.

*Of course, in the Western half of the world, an -o ending suggests, if not outright denotes a male gender...

[JimBee]

While a lot of these could stand to be offered more (*cough*Harlot, Skirmisher, Winged Warrior, Infiltrator*cough*), I have to disagree with regard to Regulator; in that case, it was always meant to be an incredibly specific award to a very specific group of people for participating in a very specific plotline. Unlike most (if not all) of the other Expert Classes, Regulator doesn't represent a profession or type of fighter so much as it does a remembrance of certain people fighting certain enemies at a certain time. I'd actually be a little disappointed if I saw a bunch of Regulator NPCs out there, because to my mind the class is so incredibly specifically tied to Felton and Hans. (Yes, I know O'blix is a thing, but I'm still holding out for Zepher to find some way to retcon that character into the Wren backstory, perhaps that Hans and Felton developed their final fighting style after meeting him in between 38 and 53 or something.) If Hans had lived and continued to put out Quests, maybe I'd be singing a different tune, but to me it makes sense that only those who knew him in life get to emulate his style after death.

So you're saying that Regulator should be specific to Quest 53 and the Wren story? First, that's highly dependent on Zephers quest mastering and whether or not he continues to make quests at all, let alone offer the class in any of them. Maybe that was intentional from the start, but I definitely think that if a class is good enough to be in the official game, it should be more easily accessible than just one quest. Chaos is a recurring theme with Heroica and isn't limited to Wren; Zoot is a prevalent figure in all of Olegaia and beyond that the idea of a balance between chaos and order is pretty vague and generally a popular topic. The theme itself definitely fits a lot of hero-type characters regardless of their association with Wren or Felton or Hans.

I know the Expert Classes are supposed to be zany and niche, but I'm of the opinion that limiting their accessibility too much will cause them to be completely obsolete eventually. At that point what's the point of including them in the game at all?

[CMP]

I know the Expert Classes are supposed to be zany and niche, but I'm of the opinion that limiting their accessibility too much will cause them to be completely obsolete eventually. At that point what's the point of including them in the game at all?

Exactly. Thus my concern with gender-specific classes.

[Zepher]

I have vague general plans to hand out the Regulator class again at some point in my QMing career (there was going to be an option of it in 102 depending on how the heroes handled the Chaomancer) but I don't have specifics right now. I agree with Flipz that it must be earned, but I also agree with JimBee that it's a cool class that could use more players using it (Atramor is the only person to take me up on it so far).