Heroica RPG - Expert Job Class Discussion

[Cutcobra]

I'd say the second is the better of the two as it involves less dice rolling. A few additional thoughts:

Job Traits: Fame: Use Diplomacy or Intimidate, we've already have job traits for this effect. Glory: Good, but maybe Money-maker would be sufficient to avoid a brand new trait. Challenger: New mechanics (i.e. Gladiating) are generally dictated in a trait (see Spellcasting, Battle Songs, Oaths, etc.) So maybe a description like: A Gladiator's skills are affected by which weapons they are currently using.

Rolls: Furious Hit: I'm not the biggest fan of the roll since it limits the strategy of the class since you're locked in to a target until it goes down, but I can see it helping to balance the class out. Taunt: Enraged generally isn't a big deal for enemies as they almost always are considered to be fighting from the front row. Perhaps Dirty Fighting from Infiltrator or maybe Counter?

Gladiating: Concerning the different pairs of effects, I'd also include some way for the current effects imbued by the weapons to over-ride the immunities of artifacts (slowed for example is really easy to cure and I don't think a pair of Winged Sandals is enough to offset the balance of permanent encouraged). Now onto ideas for pairs:

Encouraged & Slowed: Good

Hastened & Easier to miss: Why not just use Jinxed?

Nimble & Weakened: Good

Lucky & Fragile: Good

Reinforced & ?: This is really the only positive effect left aside from Inspired which would be a little too good (can serve as an auto heal), I can't really see people choosing Reinforced over Nimble so perhaps it's counter effect shouldn't be too bad.

With Fame, I was aiming at something more like "Charismatic personality" than diplomacy, but I see your point. I put Glory in since it's kind of compensation for the fact that Gladiator can't change targets.

And I don't see a point in Reinforced since Gladiator is not really a defence class and don't see a weapon that can grant it.

GLADIATOR

These entertaining champions do it for the fame and the glory.

Additional Health: +5

Weapons: The gladiator uses fighting weapons that benefit them in battle like greatswords, longswords, lances and axes.

Job Traits: Diplomacy: (See Knight). Glory: Whenever the gladiator kills an enemy, it gains gold equal to the enemy's level. Gladiating: The gladiator has a special way of combining acting and fighting.

Battle Style: Entertainer: The gladiator specifically uses his weapons to give a good to show.

1. SHIELD: Are you not entertained? - The gladiator amazes the party with it's moves, giving all his allies the positive effect his weapon boosts for the next 3 rounds. In addition, he attacks the target equal to four times their weapon power added to their level (15WP x 4 + level 30 = 90 damage)

2. CRITICAL FURIOUS HIT - The gladiator attacks their target equal to two times their weapon power added to their level (15WP x 2 + level 30 = 60 damage). The gladiator cannot change targets until the chosen target is defeated.

3. FURIOUS HIT - The gladiator attacks their target equal to their weapon power added to their level (15WP + level 30 = 45 damage). The gladiator cannot change targets until the chosen target is defeated.

4. ACTED COUNTER - The gladiator allows the target to try and attack him, but blocks it and deals the negative effect his current weapon gives. Nothing happens if the gladiator is not gladiating. Nothing happens if the gladiator is immune to the negative effect his current weapon gives.

5. DAMAGE - The gladiator is struck by the opponent's attack.

6. SPECIAL DODGE - The gladiator has a 1/2 chance to dodge the opponent's special skill so that it hits the next ally in turn instead, unless the skill hits everybody.

GLADIATING:

The gladiator can choose to focus on entertaining his crowd while fighting, making quite a show with his weapons.

Greatsword - The heavy greatsword gives the gladiator a bit of a challenge, making the gladiator Encouraged to do better but Slowed because of the heaviness of the weapon.

Lance - The flexibilty in the use of a lance makes the gladiator Nimble but Weakened because of the focus on dodging.

Axe - The gladiator can make quick use of an axe, making the gladiator Hastened but Jinxed because of his unbalanced position.

Longsword - The easy use of the longsword makes the gladiator Lucky with his attacks but Fragile because of difficulty parrying.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Cutcobra

[Flipz]

I'd add to the gladiating section that the bonuses and penalties override the Hero's immunities.

I like Glory as is, it's a good fit for the whole Furious thing.

Acted Counter is okay, but the name in general needs work, and the name should also have the word Furious in there as well. I also wouldn't mind it getting replaced by Dirty Fighting, but then again I do like the uniqueness of what you have now.

[Waterbrick Down]

I concur with Flipz about the effects, all it will take is one person to imbue a bunch of scrolls into an artifact and they won't have to worry about the downsides of the weapons they're using. Also do we think Gladiator would fit, stylistically? I like the theme but it doesn't really seem to fit with Heroica RPG, any ideas?

[Cutcobra]

GLADIATOR

These entertaining champions do it for the fame and the glory.

Additional Health: +5

Weapons: The gladiator uses fighting weapons that benefit them in battle like greatswords, longswords, lances and axes.

Job Traits: Diplomacy: (See Knight). Glory: Whenever the gladiator kills an enemy, it gains gold equal to the enemy's level. Gladiating: The gladiator has a special way of combining acting and fighting.

Battle Style: Entertainer: The gladiator specifically uses his weapons to give a good show.

1. SHIELD: Are you not entertained? - The gladiator amazes the party with it's moves, giving all his allies the positive effect his weapon boosts for the next 3 rounds. In addition, he attacks the target equal to four times their weapon power added to their level (15WP x 4 + level 30 = 90 damage)

2. CRITICAL FURIOUS HIT - The gladiator attacks their target equal to two times their weapon power added to their level (15WP x 2 + level 30 = 60 damage). The gladiator cannot change targets until the chosen target is defeated.

3. FURIOUS HIT - The gladiator attacks their target equal to their weapon power added to their level (15WP + level 30 = 45 damage). The gladiator cannot change targets until the chosen target is defeated.

4. FIGHT TRICK - The gladiator allows the target to try and attack him, but blocks it and deals the negative effect his current weapon gives. Nothing happens if the gladiator is not gladiating.

5. DAMAGE - The gladiator is struck by the opponent's attack.

6. SPECIAL DODGE - The gladiator has a 1/2 chance to dodge the opponent's special skill so that it hits the next ally in turn instead, unless the skill hits everybody.

GLADIATING:

The gladiator can choose to focus on entertaining his crowd while fighting, making quite a show with his weapons. When gladiating is in use, it overrides the immunity it's negative effect gives (E.g. Gladiator is immune to slowed but gladiates with a greatsword, the hero is slowed anyways. Gladiator changes weapon and the enemy deals Slowed to it, gladiator is not slowed.)

Greatsword - The heavy greatsword gives the gladiator a bit of a challenge, making the gladiator Encouraged to do better but Slowed because of the heaviness of the weapon.

Lance - The flexibilty in the use of a lance makes the gladiator Nimble but Weakened because of the focus on dodging.

Axe - The gladiator can make quick use of an axe, making the gladiator Hastened but Jinxed because of his unbalanced position.

Longsword - The easy use of the longsword makes the gladiator Lucky with his attacks but Fragile because of difficulty parrying.

I concur with Flipz about the effects, all it will take is one person to imbue a bunch of scrolls into an artifact and they won't have to worry about the downsides of the weapons they're using. Also do we think Gladiator would fit, stylistically? I like the theme but it doesn't really seem to fit with Heroica RPG, any ideas?

By the Gladiator I meant a hero/heroine who specialized in one on one matches whilist entertaining people with his moves (gladiating).

Edited January 23, 2015 by Cutcobra

[Waterbrick Down]

Perhaps Duelist, Slayer, Warlord, Marshal, Brawler, Bruiser? All I can think of with Gladiator is ancient Rome.

[Flipz]

Ooh, I like both Slayer and Warlord for names.

While I'm at it, I think I'll have another go at Mystic Warden; I've toned down Omnislash a bit more (maybe a bit too much?), I've gone ahead and removed ranged spell rolls (since they're easily replicated by Enchanted Hit), and swapped out Aim/Spell Aim for Absorb Ether/Meditate. Thoughts for improvement (keeping in mind this is a Master Class suggestion)?

Mystic Warden

knight – mage – ranger

These mystical defenders focus fire on their foes with blade, spell, and arrow.

· Additional Health: +10

· Additional Ether: +20

· Weapons: Mystic Wardens wield weapons suitable for knights, mages, and rangers, including gems, scrolls and shields.

· Job Traits: Spellcasting (See Mage), Gossolalia (See Prophet), Arcane Wisdom (see Scholar/Archmage), Enchanting Personality - Mystic Wardens can cast minor charms on the weak-minded to get what they want, Mystic Veil - Mystic Wardens are immune to any element or negative Scroll effect they are currently casting, Fountain of Ether - Any other Ether-user in the party may draw from the Mystic Warden's Ether pool if they run out of their own Ether.

· Battle Style: Arcane: Mystic Wardens use powerful but unconventional methods, increasing their own strength to take down foes.

1. SHIELD:

Omnislash:

The Mystic Warden enchants their weapon with one of the elements available to them at the cost of 1 Ether, then attacks the target a number of times equal to two times the number of remaining enemies. If the target survives and the Mystic Warden has Ether remaining, the Mystic Warden then spends an additional 1 Ether to Mark the target, causing all damage and negative effects originating from the enemy party during the next Round to be redirected to the target instead.

2. CRITICAL HIT/CRITICAL ENCHANTED HIT: The Mystic Warden attacks with strength equal to two times their weapon power added to their level. Alternatively, the Mystic Warden can spend 1 Ether to enchant their weapon with an element available to them and attack, dealing damage with the weapon equal to their critical attack.

3. HIT/ENCHANTED HIT: The Mystic Warden attacks with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level. Alternatively, the Mystic Warden can spend 1 Ether to enchant their weapon with an element available to them and attack, dealing damage with the weapon equal to their attack.

4. ABSORB ETHER/MEDITATE/ENCHANTMENT: The Mystic Warden transfers all Ether from the target to themselves; if the enemy has no Ether, the Mystic Warden meditates to regain 1 Ether instead. Alternatively, the Mystic Warden can spend Ether to permanently enhance their weapon or shield, increasing the chosen piece of equipment's power by one at a cost of the power of the weapon or shield after the enchantment; if there is not enough Ether, nothing happens.

5. DEFENDED MIRROR DAMAGE: The Mystic Warden is struck by the opponent's attack. The power of the Mystic Warden's shield decreases the effect of the attack and has a 1/6 chance of blocking the attack completely; if the Mystic Warden survives the attack, they reflect it to cause the same amount of damage to the opponent regardless of the opponent's defense or distance.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE: The Mystic Warden is struck by the opponent’s special skill.

[Cutcobra]

Perhaps Duelist, Slayer, Warlord, Marshal, Brawler, Bruiser? All I can think of with Gladiator is ancient Rome.

I don't really think those are names for someone that fights in arenas, so all I could come up with was Gladiator (I already searched synonyms for it).

Edited January 24, 2015 by Cutcobra

[Khorne]

I don't really think those are names for someone that fights in arenas, so all I could come up with was Gladiator (I already searched synonyms for it).

What about "Showsword"? It's not really an existing word, but it emphasizes that the warrior fights for show and glory, like a sellsword fights for money.

[Sandy]

All I can think of with Gladiator is ancient Rome.

It's not any more Roman than Vindicator is.

Anyway, I don't think either the Detective or the Gladiator brings anything new to the buffet table formed by the expert classes, so I have to reject both ideas for now.

The Mystic Warden combines powerful skills from several advanced classes, sure, but I still don't see it is really necessary. Besides, it would kinda require coming up with a master class for all other combinations of three basic classes as well, to keep things fair for all players. That would mean 16 new master classes.

[Lind Whisperer]

I don't really think those are names for someone that fights in arenas, so all I could come up with was Gladiator (I already searched synonyms for it).

How about Thraex, Murmillo, Hoplomachus, Secutor, or Retiarius?

I had a suggestion about how the class could be acquired. Perhaps you would need a cast-net, like a retiarius would carry, which would fill your Shield slot?

[StickFig]

How about Thraex, Murmillo, Hoplomachus, Secutor, or Retiarius?

Which are all types of Gladiators, so that doesn't help at all.

[Flipz]

The Mystic Warden combines powerful skills from several advanced classes, sure, but I still don't see it is really necessary. Besides, it would kinda require coming up with a master class for all other combinations of three basic classes as well, to keep things fair for all players. That would mean 16 new master classes.

I don't think it would have to mean coming up with combos for all of the three basic classes, though, as long as there's more than just the one option. The big complaints I've heard about Prophet is that, while a great class, it's extremely un-Ranger-y, being focused much more on the healing and spellcasting components (and to a lesser extent, it's even a little Cleric-heavy compared to a normal Mage playstyle). While Mystic Warden does still have some strong Mage elements to it, I tried to design it in a way such that one could mostly ignore the Ether component in favor of physical attacks with a ranged weapon--Fountain of Ether in particularly is designed around this strategy, as it allows the Mystic Warden's Ether reserves to be useful to the party even if they themselves aren't using it. Either way, it's intended to be an offensive option for a set of Heroes whose Master Class option is primarily a support class, just like Pie's Virtuoso is a more support-oriented option for a set of Heroes whose Master Class option is primarily an offense class.

(And yes, that does leave Clerics with two mostly-support classes and Knights with two mostly-offense classes, which means there's a need for just two additional Master Classes, not necessarily 16. )

(EDIT: Or even just one really well-balanced Knight+Cleric+??? (Barbarian?) option that could play both roles.)

Edited January 25, 2015 by Flipz

[LordoftheNoobs]

Personally, I think there should be three: Paragon which is Knight/Barbarian (Melee), Prophet which is Mage/Cleric (Magic) and a new one, perhaps called something like, I dunno, Sharpshooter which would be Ranger/Rogue (Ranged).

Of course they'd be different enough so that, for example, Sharpshooter wouldn't be just a more powerful version of Assassin, but it'd allow for a more range attack-oriented player to have an option that would most likely be better for them in the long run.

So yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with Flipz in that one - Prophet just isn't Ranger-y enough, and I also don't think that Paragon is Rogue-y enough either.

[Kintobor]

Personally, I think there should be three: Paragon which is Knight/Barbarian (Melee), Prophet which is Mage/Cleric (Magic) and a new one, perhaps called something like, I dunno, Sharpshooter which would be Ranger/Rogue (Ranged).

Of course they'd be different enough so that, for example, Sharpshooter wouldn't be just a more powerful version of Assassin, but it'd allow for a more range attack-oriented player to have an option that would most likely be better for them in the long run.

So yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with Flipz in that one - Prophet just isn't Ranger-y enough, and I also don't think that Paragon is Rogue-y enough either.

There is three.

Paragon, Prophet, and Mime.

[LordoftheNoobs]

Oh, right. I forgot about Mime.

Well, four then.

[Sandy]

(And yes, that does leave Clerics with two mostly-support classes and Knights with two mostly-offense classes, which means there's a need for just two additional Master Classes, not necessarily 16. )

It's not about what roles the master classes fulfill, but which players have access to them. Adding Mystic Warden would leave barbarians, rogues and clerics out by only offering one master class besides Mime to them. Of course there could be a new class for those three, but it would easily be a vicious cycle where someone would deem the new class "not-roguish-enough" etc. and demand a new master class.

I don't understand the claim that Paragons aren't roguish enough or Prophets aren't ranger-y enough - they can do everything their respective basic class can do, after all.

[Yzalirk]

Here are a few suggestions:

Name: Deathsinger

Bio: Twisted from the abyss of the unknown, a new hero emerges to cleanse the life from the living.

Abilities:

1.) Song of Death - weakens enemy and makes them more vulnerable to critical hits

2.) Void - enemies cannot flee from battle

3.) Life Purge - gives back the player health if the selected enemy of "Life Purge" dies

Name: Imperialist

Bio: Ready to conquer the world, one kill at a time.

Abilities:

1.) Sneering Imperialist - deal bonus damage to "uncivilized" enemies (must be humanoids and, for example, tribesmen)

2.) Word of the King - threatens enemies so they do a bit more damage but lose their guard

3.) Divide & Conquer - able to hit both enemies but can become fatigued

Those are some ideas I had that I thought I would share but I'm not too sure what I should add or not. I have more ideas for abilities but I need to give it some time and thinking, but for now, what do you guys think?

[Waterbrick Down]

With class construction consider three things:

What makes the class appealing to other players? (similar to designing loot, one shouldn't design something for one's own benefit)

How will the class be distinct in battle mechanics? (i.e. what does it have to offer that other classes don't)

How will the class be distinct in style? (i.e. what would help/prevent a player from just adding flavor to another already established class)

[Lind Whisperer]

Those are some ideas I had that I thought I would share but I'm not too sure what I should add or not. I have more ideas for abilities but I need to give it some time and thinking, but for now, what do you guys think?

For starters, you need to add at least a draft of battle rolls, even if it's very rough.

Bio: Twisted from the abyss of the unknown, a new hero emerges to cleanse the life from the living.

Change "from" to "by", unless the hero is supposed to be part of the abyss itself.

1.) Song of Death - weakens enemy and makes them more vulnerable to critical hits

How it makes them more vulnerable.

2.) Void - enemies cannot flee from battle

I like this one - like a permanent Shackles of War.

3.) Life Purge - gives back the player health if the selected enemy of "Life Purge" dies

More definition - stats, numbers.

1.) Sneering Imperialist - deal bonus damage to "uncivilized" enemies (must be humanoids and, for example, tribesmen)

I see what you're trying to do, but it's too vague. Under this definition, an Elf would count as uncivilized, since they often live in tribes, even though they are a highly civilized race.

2.) Word of the King - threatens enemies so they do a bit more damage but lose their guard.

Define "guard".

3.) Divide & Conquer - able to hit both enemies but can become fatigued.

Define "fatigued".

[Chromeknight]

Minstrel is (somewhat) broken.

I loved the feeling of power controlling the battlefield, especially in the last battle, but Nanny's Lullaby? Battle winner right there.

It turns a horde battle into a curbstomp. And all for a measly Ether. It removes free hits, which are the only thing that would scare a minstrel, since they go at the top of order to get maximum effect from songs.

What if it had a per enemy cost instead of a flat rate?

[Flipz]

I think that Minstrels shouldn't get default songs, period. Would make dealing with the problematic ones much simpler--there's a problem? Change the specific item (song), without having to have a debate over ALL of the Minstrel songs every time. The flip side of that is that QMs will need to drop more Minstrel songs, but that's an easier beast to handle.

[Scubacarrot]

Or: each song can be used once per battle?

[Chromeknight]

It's not every song, I think. Just the lullaby.

[Sandy]

Minstrel is (somewhat) broken.

I loved the feeling of power controlling the battlefield, especially in the last battle, but Nanny's Lullaby? Battle winner right there.

It turns a horde battle into a curbstomp. And all for a measly Ether. It removes free hits, which are the only thing that would scare a minstrel, since they go at the top of order to get maximum effect from songs.

What if it had a per enemy cost instead of a flat rate?

When I last updated the Minstrel, I pondered about the ether costs, but decided it would be simpler to keep it flat. I can see how Nanny's Lullaby would make things simple for the Minstrel, but I thought it would be balanced out by the Minstrel's incapability to do anything else in the round. Maybe if I raise the ether cost? I could also remove the entire song out of the roster.

[Kintobor]

Why not give it a 1/2 chance to make an enemy fall asleep. Or 1/6, if the cost is one ether.

And stop nerfing the class I'm so desperate to get into! This is only supposed to happen to Guts!