Heroica RPG - Expert Job Class Discussion

[Sandy]

Why not give it a 1/2 chance to make an enemy fall asleep. Or 1/6, if the cost is one ether.

That would make it equal to using a scroll, which isn't the point of the class.

I have to take user feedback into equation. Finding the perfect balance can only happen through trial and error.

[Lind Whisperer]

This class would require the introduction of the Burning effect. In practice, it would be identical in effect to Poison.

"Some have fire, to burn monsters in the night. Oh, fire, fire burns my life in hellish light...I never want to hurt them, for I know that would be bad, but they push, and hate, and scare me...they don't know all I have..."

Additional Health: +12

Additional Ether: +10 (+1 per level for classes without base ether)

Weapons: Pyrokinetics fear their own power, and choose not to use any weapons.

Job Traits: Flee:(see Rogue), Spontaneous Combustion: The pyrokinetic can light objects on fire outside of battle, Self-Preservation: Desperate to stay alive, the pryokinetic is permanently Lucky.

Battle Style: Protective - Pyrokinetics defend themselves, and those around them.

1. SHIELD: Toast - The pyro spends 1 ether, and deals 1/2 of their level in damage to the target, and 1/6 their level in Burning.

2. CRITICAL HIT: Loose Cannon - The pyro spends 2 ether, and deals 2x their level in damage to the target, and 1/5 of their level in Burning.

3. HIT: Back Draft - The pyro sets all enemies to Burning, at 1/6 their level, spending 1 ether per target.

4. HIDE: Shelter - The pyro hides for the round, with a 1/2 chance of being Afraid for the next round.

5. DAMAGE: Confused Terror - The pyro deals half their level in damage to all enemies, spending 1 ether per target, and accidentally deals half their damage in burning to a random party member.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE: Nowhere to Run - The pyro deals their level in damage, and half their level in burning to ALL targets, INCLUDING their party, spending 1 ether per target. The pyro is Afraid for the next round.

EDIT: I forgot to add - All Burning dealt stacks with prior Burning.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Lind Whisperer

[Scubacarrot]

A couple of things. Pyro's seem to be unable to be hit with Special Damage, which needs to change. I also think setting your party on fire on top of special damage seems a bit much, it also seems to be their strongest fire ability. I would change it to a normal special damage(guard/mirror whatever) and move the randomly burning a friendly to either part of roll 4 or 5. It also doesn't seem to have any benefit from weapons. This also needs to change, as it is very weak. The Shield is very weak for what it is. Every roll uses ether, if the Pyro has no ether, is it useless? It has no way to make money to pay for a lot of tonics to support that.

Brickdoctor introduced a Burning effect in one of his quests, which was something like: "X damage that doubles/increases each round and has a small chance to go out each round." I really liked that effect myself, perhaps it can be incorporated?

I like the idea, but it needs work.

Also Pyrokinetics seem to be doing anything but protect themselves and those around them.

[Flipz]

So in other words, the Burning-effect we already have?

This might make for an okay NPC-only class, but I don't see the point of it as a player class. Permanent Luck is completely overpowered, and should probably be replaced by a trait that makes all of their attacks Fire-elemental and/or makes them immune to Fire-elemental damage (again, assuming it's getting adapted to an NPC-only class). The Damage roll is rather confusing, and is way too beneficial to the party to be a Damage roll (not to mention it has no drawback whatsoever for the Pyrokinetic themself.

Brickdoctor introduced a Burning effect in one of his quests, which was something like: "X damage that doubles/increases each round and has a small chance to go out each round." I really liked that effect myself, perhaps it can be incorporated?

Oh, really? I'll have to check. AFAIK, Burning has generally just been a reskinned Poisoned-effect. That's how I've always used it, anyway.

[Asphalt]

It has some potential, but definitely needs some fine tuning. It needs to have damage that does not require ether. Perhaps rather than allowing no weapons they can only use a weapon that has been merged with a fire Gem. Using such a channeling device could reduce the possibility of burning their comrades.

[Scubacarrot]

Oh, really? I'll have to check. AFAIK, Burning has generally just been a reskinned Poisoned-effect. That's how I've always used it, anyway.

I tried to find it, but had no luck. I might be making stuff up again.

[Flipz]

I tried to find it, but had no luck. I might be making stuff up again.

I know Endgame has a Gush Blood effect that's like Bleeding but doubles each Round, maybe that's what you're thinking of?

[CMP]

Too many special rolls.

[Waterbrick Down]

As Flipz has discussed, permanent Lucky is overpowered, Damage and Special Damage should be reworked as the class needs some method of allowing enemies to hit them. After that, it's essentially a barbarian that doesn't have to go looking for a weapon with either the burning effect or poisoned effect. Witch is already dealing poisoned effect (burning effect by another name) on every hit (albeit single target), so I can't see a reason for player specifically picking this class or a reason why someone couldn't take an existing class (Chi Monk or other mage based class) and flavor their character to be a pyro. Good perhaps as an NPC class, but not for PC's as it stands.

[Lind Whisperer]

A couple of things. Pyro's seem to be unable to be hit with Special Damage, which needs to change.

Agreed.

I also think setting your party on fire on top of special damage seems a bit much, it also seems to be their strongest fire ability. I would change it to a normal special damage(guard/mirror whatever) and move the randomly burning a friendly to either part of roll 4 or 5. It also doesn't seem to have any benefit from weapons. This also needs to change, as it is very weak. The Shield is very weak for what it is.

The idea behind having Special Damage be its most destructive role was that the Pyro is backed into a corner, and is attacking wildly anyone they see in self defense, whether they're a friend or foe.

Every roll uses ether, if the Pyro has no ether, is it useless?

Good point. I was inspired by Chi Monk for the attacks, but I forgot to include any way of replenishing ether.

It has no way to make money to pay for a lot of tonics to support that.

I wonder if it would be too crazy to borrow Mug from Rogue, with an extra gold boost added, playing on the urban theme I was going for...But it would probably just be easier to include a normal replenisher roll...But, there is something to be said for sticking with theme...

Brickdoctor introduced a Burning effect in one of his quests, which was something like: "X damage that doubles/increases each round and has a small chance to go out each round." I really liked that effect myself, perhaps it can be incorporated?

Also Pyrokinetics seem to be doing anything but protect themselves and those around them.

That was the idea - basically, a class that could deal out incredible effects damage to enemies, but had the downside of that they could also accidentally destroy their own party.

This might make for an okay NPC-only class, but I don't see the point of it as a player class.

The idea is, at base, a Chi Monk that deals huge amounts of special effects instead of punches, but runs the risk of hurting their own party. The current classes make it so that high-leveled players run very little risk of failing their battles at all, with a good battle order and a reasonable stash of Phoenix Essences. This throws a little bit of danger back into the game(as well as having amazing RP potentional).

Permanent Luck is completely overpowered, and should probably be replaced by a trait that makes all of their attacks Fire-elemental and/or makes them immune to Fire-elemental damage (again, assuming it's getting adapted to an NPC-only class).

I wanted to stay away from bringing elements into this, but I agree that Luck should be either toned down or changed.

The Damage roll is rather confusing, and is way too beneficial to the party to be a Damage roll (not to mention it has no drawback whatsoever for the Pyrokinetic themself.

Agreed.

Perhaps rather than allowing no weapons they can only use a weapon that has been merged with a fire Gem. Using such a channeling device could reduce the possibility of burning their comrades.

The point is that they can accidentally burn their comrades. It's supposed to be overpowered enough to deal severe damage both ways.

[CMP]

A class that depending on rolls can obliterate their own or the enemy's party sucks all the fun out of the other players.

[StickFig]

I think that Minstrels shouldn't get default songs, period. Would make dealing with the problematic ones much simpler--there's a problem? Change the specific item (song), without having to have a debate over ALL of the Minstrel songs every time. The flip side of that is that QMs will need to drop more Minstrel songs, but that's an easier beast to handle.

I like the idea of no default songs; what if Minstrels "learned" songs, so that after so many times (rounds) singing a song they no longer needed the song sheet itself? That way they could pass the sheets around the way that real minstrels do.

[Myrddyn]

Am I missing something, or is Critical Hit significantly better than Shield? Oh I guess that's due to them being permanently lucky?

And they can only be damaged by free hits? Or is there a chance for them to hit him/herself with Confused Terror?

Yeah I agree with what everyone else has said. Perma-lucky is OP, it doesn't protect it's allies at all, despite what the battle style implies, and it should really have damage/special damage rolls that actually involve damage/special damage.

A class that depending on rolls can obliterate their own or the enemy's party sucks all the fun out of the other players.

Yeah I personally really hate enemy AOE attacks, because it makes strategy less useful. There's no option to go "Well I'll hit from the back row, or target a certain enemy, so if I roll damage I won't be K/O'ed", because then someone else rolls AOE special and you get knocked out anyway. With this class, you have that risk all the time from your own allies. Plus it doesn't even really take into account enemy stats, besides HP, and level on free hits. It starts to get where you might as well just flip a coin once every battle to see who wins.

[Lind Whisperer]

A class that depending on rolls can obliterate their own or the enemy's party sucks all the fun out of the other players.

It certainly needs to be balanced and edited, but beyond that, that depends on your interpretation of fun. It would add an element of danger to higher level battles that is currently missing(for the most part, there are of course exceptions), and boost RP as well.

I like the idea of no default songs; what if Minstrels "learned" songs, so that after so many times (rounds) singing a song they no longer needed the song sheet itself? That way they could pass the sheets around the way that real minstrels do.

I like this.

[CMP]

It certainly needs to be balanced and edited, but beyond that, that depends on your interpretation of fun. It would add an element of danger to higher level battles that is currently missing(for the most part, there are of course exceptions), and boost RP as well.

Every battle should not depend on whether one player gets good rolls or not.

[Lind Whisperer]

Am I missing something, or is Critical Hit significantly better than Shield? Oh I guess that's due to them being permanently lucky?

And they can only be damaged by free hits? Or is there a chance for them to hit him/herself with Confused Terror?

Yeah I agree with what everyone else has said. Perma-lucky is OP, it doesn't protect it's allies at all, despite what the battle style implies, and it should really have damage/special damage rolls that actually involve damage/special damage.

Agreed. I really should have spent more time designing and balancing the rolls...

Yeah I personally really hate enemy AOE attacks, because it makes strategy less useful. There's no option to go "Well I'll hit from the back row, or target a certain enemy, so if I roll damage I won't be K/O'ed", because then someone else rolls AOE special and you get knocked out anyway. With this class, you have that risk all the time from your own allies. Plus it doesn't even really take into account enemy stats, besides HP, and level on free hits. It starts to get where you might as well just flip a coin once every battle to see who wins.

Thanks for sharing that - Yeah, after that, I can see now how it is overpowered to the point where it's beyond overpowered. That was the idea, but this takes it too far.

I still want to keep Damage and Special Damage somewhat like they are, but a lot of nerfing needs to happen.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Lind Whisperer

[Waterbrick Down]

I don't know if a lot of nerfing needs to happen but it goes back to class creation basics:

Why would a player want to play as this class?

How is mechanically different so that it can be stratigized around?

How is stylistically different that I can't say make a mage and have them be obsessed with fire magic and afraid that their power is too much for them to handle? (Sort of the issue I have with all elemental themed classes).

I think you need to focus on a few key ideas which you do have (burning effect, AoE, risk to do damage to party), start from a basic class and adapt it from there.

[Myrddyn]

Maybe when it gets hit by an enemy it causes burning to them? Then there's the whole pre-nerf counterstriking issue, but since it doesn't have shield proficiency, it's SP is limited to begin with. Maybe you could have a trait that removes SP and adds it to burning damage? You could do the same thing for weapons as well in the same trait - give the class proficiency with some weapons, but the trait removes WP and adds it to burning damage. I suspect with the prevalence of weapons in the Heroica universe, really scared people would often go armed, even if they can shoot fire out of their fingers.

That doesn't have a risk of damaging allies, but there could be a risk of causing burning to an ally if they target the pyrokinetic with an item or for a heal?

Also, perhaps you could have something so if it has the right gem it can choose the element of its burning damage, and it gets doubled if the target is weak to that element or nullified if the target is strong against that element?

[Waterbrick Down]

Also if you're looking for ideas Jebs created a pyromancer a while back.

[Flipz]

Maybe you could have a trait that removes SP and adds it to burning damage? You could do the same thing for weapons as well in the same trait - give the class proficiency with some weapons, but the trait removes WP and adds it to burning damage.

That would be an amazing new Talisman for a Witch--WP/SP is nullified, but the amount is added to poison damage.

[Sandy]

I like the idea of no default songs; what if Minstrels "learned" songs, so that after so many times (rounds) singing a song they no longer needed the song sheet itself? That way they could pass the sheets around the way that real minstrels do.

That's too much to keep track of. I was at one point pondering on making Minstrel learn new songs upon leveling up, but ultimately decided against it.

I don't think I will be making any substantial changes to the existing classes anymore, since aside from a few highs and lows, I think they are pretty balanced now.

[Jebediahs]

Shield Mage

* Additional Health: +3

* Additional Ether: +6

* Weapons: Staves, Wands, Scrolls, Daggers, Gems and Shields.

* Job Traits: Empower Shield - The shield mage can carry a shield as long as his combined shield power is less than or equal to half the shield mage’s level. He can temporarily enhance the shield while in combat.

Charged - The shield mage adds 1 to his charge counter every time he is damaged by an attack or receives a negative status effect. Unexpended charges carry from battle to battle but remaining charges expire at the end of a quest.

Spellcasting - (See mage).

* Battle Style: Buffering - Shield Mages fling spells from behind cover.

1. SHIELD:

Spellshield

- The shield mage leads with his shield unleashing a devastating elemental attack on his target for damage in an amount equal to twice his combined weapon and shield power added to level then multiplied by the number of accrued charges ((WP: 15 + SP: 15) x 2 + Level 30) x 3 Charges = 270 elemental damage) that ignores row at the cost of 1 ether. The charges are expended upon the completion of the attack but if the shield mage is not charged, the Charged modifier is ignored. If no gem was chosen, one from the shield mage’s inventory will be selected at random. If no target was selected, one will be selected at random. Additionally, the shield mage extends the magic of his shield, protecting himself and the player listed immediately after the shield mage in the order of actions from damage and effects on the following round.

2. CRITICAL HIT/GREAT SPELL/STRONG MUFFLE: The shield mage attacks or spends 1 ether to cast an elemental spell with strength equal to two times his weapon power added to his level (WP: 15 x 2 + Level 30 = 60 damage). Optionally, the shield mage can spend 1 ether to cast Muffle on his shield which seals the shield mage’s attacker when they cause him harm. Muffle lasts for three rounds but additional castings add to the round timer.

3. HIT/SPELL/MUFFLE: The shield mage attacks or spends 1 ether to cast an elemental spell with strength equal to his weapon power added to his level (WP: 15 + Level 30 = 45 damage). Optionally, the shield mage can spend 1 ether to cast Muffle on his shield which seals the shield mage’s attacker when they cause him harm. Muffle lasts for two rounds but additional castings add to the round timer.

4. HAPLESS: The shield mage becomes jinxed. If not previously jinxed, the shield mage adds one to his Charged modifier.

5. DEFLECTED DAMAGE/MISCAST: The shield mage is struck by his opponent’s attack but his shield has a ⅙ chance to block the attack completely. The shield mage adds one to his Charged modifier as long as he receives damage. Optionally, any attempt at casting Muffle fails and the shield mage seals himself, losing all remaining charges.

6. SPECIAL DAMAGE/MISCAST: The shield mage is struck by his opponent’s special damage which adds one to his Charged modifier if he receives damage or a negative status effect. Optionally, any attempt at casting Muffle fails and the shield mage seals himself, losing all remaining charges.

[The Chosen Minifigure]

I love it! I would so play as that. It just needs a bit of a higher chance to muffle, and maybe remove hapless?

[Myrddyn]

I think it needs a buff. It's like Mystic Knight, but you jinx yourself instead of enchantment, Muffle is cool but Miscast seems pretty detrimental to a mage, the Shield skill seems like it might do a bit less damage than Mystic Knight's, but it's partly defensive so that makes up for it, and it has limited shield power. I think Mystic knight is probably stronger overall, but Shield Mage is an Expert class.

I do like the charges every time it takes damage, but it seems a shame they only do anything on shield rolls, and/or maybe Muffle could be changed so the Shield Mage casts a scroll on his shield, and an enemy that attacks him is inflicted with whatever the scrolls effect is? Rather than the effect always being Sealed?

I think it should get a bigger HP bonus, too - Mystic Knight gets +7 HP, and Decamon Drafter gets the same +6 ether bonus and +9 HP.

[The Chosen Minifigure]

The scroll idea:Perfect!