Heroica RPG - Expert Job Class Discussion

[Cutcobra]

I like the idea of inflicting effects on oneself to inflict them on others, however I feel the entire class could be relegated to an artifact that lets ether users inflict the negative effects they are currently affected with. i.e.

Cursed Cloak of Contagions - The wearer's spells inflict the negative effects the wearer currently has. Backwear, suitable to Mages, Necromancers, Weather-mages, and Scholars.

Which brings up an idea for Cleric classes.

Blessed Belt of Bolstering - The wearer's healing gives the positive effects the wearer currently has. Torsowear, suitable to Clerics and Chi-monks.

But the point is to get the negative/positive effects from scrolls, otherwise it's not magic. Anyone can drink a venom to cause poisoned by 1 on all their spells or a Jinxy Juice to get jinxed on all their spells, but it's rare to see those in scrolls. Fragile, Weakened, Confused, etc are more reasonable in my opinion. And that artifact is pretty cool in case my class idea doesn't work, but maybe add the "effects from scrolls" to it and take the Scholar out since that class can't cast spells.

[Zepher]

Both powerful artifacts, but very cool. I like that the cloak has a down-side, but I think the belt would need to be balanced with a downside as well (especially if it could be used out of battle, people would just always buff the cleric and then have him/her cure everyone outside of combat to all get all the positive effects).

In general I'd like to advocate for artifacts that include both a good and bad effect, since they help make the classes more specialized without needing new classes. The Cursed Cloak of Contagions is a great example of that.

[Lind Whisperer]

Just out of curiosity, what's the point/benefit of Outstanding reputation with a faction? Or is there even any?

[Flipz]

If there's going to be some kind of independent leveling for Dragons, though, then it doesn't make sense for the Dragon to have to go away and stop leveling if the player changes class; you can't have it both ways. The whole problem with Dragoon stems from the fact that it's not player choice that determines when they can get their Dragon, it's up to the whims of QM reputation drops. (Well, that and all the baggage from existing Dragoons and how the class was in the past.) Getting one of the six or seven eggs is played as a Really Big Deal, but it's the only class for which that sort of thing happens. I...I almost think that the Shadeaux need a new Expert Class concept altogether, with Dragoon being given out more like Winged Warrior, since Dragoon is just so different than any of the other faction-based Expert Classes.

Lemme try and phrase this more coherently. Right now, we have two camps: Dragons are a class feature of Dragoon (current rules and rules interpretation), and Dragons are a significant, permanent character upgrade (the "Dragons need more care and attention" camp). So here's my thoughts on the matter:

*Dragoons are, like all Expert Classes, at the whims of QM rep drops. Out of sheer fairness, there should not be any penalty for players not being able to switch to Dragoon the moment they hit Level 30, because their ability to do so is very much not under their control.

*The number one goal of this game is fun, not realism. A player should not be penalized for changing classes when they aren't having fun, especially given that their original class may be tweaked to be more fun at a future date.

*Now, if we want to change Dragons from a class feature to a permanent character upgrade, that's fine (and could be really cool), but this means a.) the Shadeaux reward class needs to be something different (so that it's more in line with the existing reputation-reward ExC's), and b.) the Dragoon class needs to become an independently-awarded Expert Class with the requirement of "must have been awarded a Dragon egg.

*Following the previous point's line of thought, a Dragon egg would be an unprecedentedly precious reward (even more valuable than a full Adamantite crystal) that functions like the Harlot and Weather Mage books with the added restriction of being soulbound to the Hero it's awarded to. Once hatched (which happens as soon as the Hero reaches Level 30), the Dragon functions as it currently does, but levels independently of the player; the dragon itself would grant the player the Pet Dragon job trait (regardless of the class they're playing), allowing the player to decide how they want to play.

*How would this be balanced? And if the Dragon-owner can be any class they want, why would they want to play Dragoon? At the end of a battle, the player can choose to level up their Hero OR their Dragon, not both...but Dragoons do not have this restriction; this combined with the significant power increase to Dragon's Wrath (and maybe a new Dragoon Job Trait that boosts the Dragon to replace "Pet Dragon") would significantly incentivize Dragoon play, while keeping the Dragon significantly balanced for other classes.

I would be fine with Dragoon going either way, but it CANNOT be both a Job Trait AND a permanent character upgrade at the same time; the two are mutually exclusive.

[Sandy]

Just out of curiosity, what's the point/benefit of Outstanding reputation with a faction? Or is there even any?

Not when it comes to the expert job classes, but it will have a significant purpose in the endgame. Which will eventually come. Some day. I have big plans, at least.

Also, some faction-based artifacts give different bonuses depending on reputation.

[Lind Whisperer]

Not when it comes to the expert job classes, but it will have a significant purpose in the endgame. Which will eventually come. Some day. I have big plans, at least.

Sweet.

We QMs* should join together and make an effort to write more faction-based quests - there's been a significant lack of them, lately.

Also, some faction-based artifacts give different bonuses depending on reputation.

Although I've never seen The Simpsons, I believe the proper response on my part is "D'oh."

*I can call myself this, I totally hosted a quest**.

**That it was a subject of running commentary in Gen. Dis. and an example of what not to do with loot doesn't count***.

**Much.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Lind Whisperer

[Sandy]

I would be fine with Dragoon going either way, but it CANNOT be both a Job Trait AND a permanent character upgrade at the same time; the two are mutually exclusive.

I don't want to shun discussion, but I'm not going to change Dragoon so significantly at this point in the game. It will remain the Shadeaux expert job class and that's that.

Maybe in future versions of Heroica RPG (if there will be any), we can try a different approach with pet dragons, but there is no sense switching things up storywise anymore. The faction storylines are all moving towards their finales, after all.

[Zepher]

Really, they are?? Color me excited!

I'll probably be getting too busy in life to participate as actively in Heroica after a year or two from now, and I'm hoping to at least see some of the conclusion!

[JimBee]

I think Dragoon is fine as it is. This argument came up because someone said it was unfair to be able to "level up" a dragon even if you weren't a Dragoon, i.e. switched back out immediately. It's not the coolest thing to do, but you could roleplay that as the dragon training on their own, or as the ex-Dragoon training with them off-screen. There doesn't need to be a penalty to the class (I'm fine with the small one of only being able to gain XP if both Dragoon and dragon are standing), because no other class has a written penalty.

[Flipz]

Not when it comes to the expert job classes, but it will have a significant purpose in the endgame. Which will eventually come. Some day. I have big plans, at least.

Also, some faction-based artifacts give different bonuses depending on reputation.

Yet another reason for there to be more faction reputation drops, then. A lot of people with rep have dropped out of the game, the newer players (and those of us who just haven't been able to catch a break!) could do with some more.

[Myrddyn]

A., this is a reasonable solution., B., as a future Dragoon myself, I absolutely vote against it. We need our OP'd dragons!

But seriously, there are no restrictions on other Expert classes. Alchemists don't have to train their potion skills. Necromancers don't have to practice raising undead. Why should Dragoons have to undergo "leveling" when the other Expert classes don't?

Well no other Expert class gets a better shield roll as it levels, either. Seems it would solve a lot of issues if we just gave dragons the same rolls regardless of level. We could keep the level-up HP/Power, because the main draw of leveling up a dragon is really the better rolls, I think.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Myrddyn

[Yzalirk]

Maybe in future versions of Heroica RPG (if there will be any), we can try a different approach with pet dragons, but there is no sense switching things up storywise anymore. The faction storylines are all moving towards their finales, after all.

Would that be another event like the Cruel Angel's Thesis or what?

Also, this my be too early to even discuss, especially for me, but has there been talk about people being able to have a third character? The reason I ask this is because there are so many unique classes that I would definitely like to play in the future, such as a Regulator (though I'm not sure what a "Wren" quest is), Cannoneer, Dragoon (maybe?), and Vindicator. Same goes with the Veteran classes but I was referring to the "reputation" classes. I would also like to try out 2 other types of characters, one of which I have in mind. The other is actually being debated about in my mind.

[Flipz]

such as a Regulator (though I'm not sure what a "Wren" quest is)

It was a special reward for completing Quest 53. Unless Zeph awards it on one of his next two Quests, I highly doubt it'll be available ever again.

[swils]

It was a special reward for completing Quest 53. Unless Zeph awards it on one of his next two Quests, I highly doubt it'll be available ever again.

And yet, somehow it's the Dragoon's availability that is being called into question!

[Flipz]

Would it be overpowered if a Chi Monk's Chakra affected the heal target instead of the Chi Monk if they're healing with Ether? I'm trying to think of ways to make the class a little more appealing as support without breaking it entirely.

[Sandy]

Would it be overpowered if a Chi Monk's Chakra affected the heal target instead of the Chi Monk if they're healing with Ether? I'm trying to think of ways to make the class a little more appealing as support without breaking it entirely.

I have contemplated the same thing, actually, and I regret I didn't implement it in the previous class change.

But it sounds like a good fix for the class.

[Endgame]

I'm continuing this discussion here for the time being. Note that I'm not advocating a nerf for the Master Classes (yet), I'm simply concerned that they perhaps have a bit too much at their disposal. Of course, we have to let them expeirment in the field first for a couple of quests (and see multiple Master Heroes in one quest).

Paragon isn't that bad either. A Paladin and a Barbarian at level 50 would have literally the exact same effect on the enemy party--heck, a Paladin and a Raider together would do more to the enemies than a Paragon.

Master Classes combine three base classes into one. Does that make them powerful? Yes. But that's literally the entire point--complaining about it is like complaining that Advanced Classes are too powerful because they combine two base classes into one.

I just looked at the Shield Rolls for all of the advanced classes. Only one really merges the two base classes' shield rolls, and that would be Sage and Battle Mage.

Furthermore, the Base Classes shield rolls come in 3 flavors: hurt the enemy (Ranger, barbarian, rogue, mage), heal the party (cleric), protect the party (knight). All advanced classes, minus the two aforementioned exceptions, never merge the flavors.

Prophet and Paragon do, and not only do they merge them, they're pretty much the absolute most powerful variant of them. Paragons aren't too bad, actually. The amount of damage they do is reasonable, the gold gains aren't through the roof, and the sentinel is a sentinel. Prophets are powerful as hell, though. Their offensive capability in their sheild is bare minimum that of a Paragon's, and half of the time can outmatch a Barbarian Chieftain's! This is not taking into account that they resurrect, heal, and remedy their entire party at once, and if they don't have enough ehter, instantly regenerate all of it.

Prophet's shield combines two "flavors" of Shield at their absolute strongest, and I'm not sure if I like it. :scpetic: A prophet and a paragon, or hell, even a prophet and a prophet can easily keep an enemy party on complete lockdown. Especially if consumables are still being used like they are now.

[K-Nut]

If anything, I think they shouldn't regain ether during the skill. I still think the meditating is fine, but actually make the Prophet roll for meditation every once in a while.

[Kintobor]

If anything, I think they shouldn't regain ether during the skill. I still think the meditating is fine, but actually make the Prophet roll for meditation every once in a while.

I'll second this motion.

[Flipz]

If anything, I think they shouldn't regain ether during the skill. I still think the meditating is fine, but actually make the Prophet roll for meditation every once in a while.

I'd make it Meditate instead of the skill, or at the very least do so if they've chosen to meditate--what if a Prophet is Meditating and rolls SHIELD?

[K-Nut]

I'd make it Meditate instead of the skill, or at the very least do so if they've chosen to meditate--what if a Prophet is Meditating and rolls SHIELD?

That works. Maybe have a roll of 2 = 3/4 of Ether regained and a roll of 1 = full Ether?

Edited August 21, 2015 by K-Nut

[Flipz]

That works. Maybe have a roll of 2 = 3/4 of Ether regained and a roll of 1 = full Ether?

Hmm...not sure. I'd actually lean towards 1/2 Ether on a 2, because a.) it's still a LOT of Ether at that level (32 at minimum), and b.) 1/2 is waaaaaay easier for a QM to calculate than 3/4.

But yeah, as a general concept that seems fair.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Flipz

[StickFig]

...(and see multiple Master Heroes in one quest).

I think this is actually the problem. There's no analogue in real life for this (all too common in games) situation: the players have reached the end of the progression. It's WoW where everyone buys the new expansion and automatically has 1 character upped to the highest level so they can do raids; it's Destiny where everyone has a Gjallarhorn and the next expansion has to be solely focused on new content above the current level cap; it's what will eventually happen to Heroica if the same characters keep playing. When the Master Classes were introduced (before I got here, possibly at the beginning of the game?), they didn't seem too OP because literally no one could play them... and they still don't seem too too bad because only a couple of characters have gotten that powerful. But in a system without permadeath (thankfully, since Matthias has wiped at least 5 times), eventually everyone will reach the "Master" level, and that will ruin the game.

[Kintobor]

I think this is actually the problem. There's no analogue in real life for this (all too common in games) situation: the players have reached the end of the progression. It's WoW where everyone buys the new expansion and automatically has 1 character upped to the highest level so they can do raids; it's Destiny where everyone has a Gjallarhorn and the next expansion has to be solely focused on new content above the current level cap; it's what will eventually happen to Heroica if the same characters keep playing. When the Master Classes were introduced (before I got here, possibly at the beginning of the game?), they didn't seem too OP because literally no one could play them... and they still don't seem too too bad because only a couple of characters have gotten that powerful. But in a system without permadeath (thankfully, since Matthias has wiped at least 5 times), eventually everyone will reach the "Master" level, and that will ruin the game.

Unless your Karie and getting to Minstrel was the goal this whole time.

[Lind Whisperer]

...But in a system without permadeath (thankfully, since Matthias has wiped at least 5 times), eventually everyone will reach the "Master" level, and that will ruin the game.

Keep in mind, the game will end someday - I'll be extremely happy if Lind can hit 40(and unlock his dragon's element) before Sandy finishes the very last parts of his story. The other QM's will keep it going for a bit, but after that... *

(*Although there has been talk of continuing it, albeit in a slightly different form... )

Unless your Karie and getting to Minstrel was the goal this whole time.

<Dragoon. Dragoon, Dragoon, Dragoon.