Heroica RPG - Expert Job Class Discussion

[StickFig]

...so that Druid->Prophet needs at least a little consideration before making the switch.

I was completely with you until this... why on earth shouldn't a master class be more attractive in every possible way than an Advanced Class?!

[CMP]

Looking through some of the old ideas in this topic, I still like the Demonologist master class I adapted from Pie's idea. It's pretty complicated, but I'm a big fan of the way it uses health to attack instead of ether. Not sure if spellcasting fits in. It could definitely be simplified, anyone think the class would be worth exploring more?

One of my favorite classes to work on.

So, a lot's happened since the last batch of edits. Dragoon's super different, we've got Weather Mage, we've got Decamon Drafter. Demonologist has always had elements of Dragoon, but with the major changes, it left some versions of this class pretty underpowered compared to, say, a level 50 Dragoon.

So, what I've done here is to try and differentiate it.

I've left most of what you've done intact, JimBee. Spells were cut but scroll casting remains. Sacrificial Hits were dropped simply because the demon's attacks already have that mechanic, but I did change Critical Mortal Hit to Mortal Slaughter, which is an area of effect attack that costs health. Master Classes got an extra job trait since the last edit so I added 'Your Unholiness', because the class needed more in-battle traits than out-of-battle ones, which it's got plenty of already. I used nimble simply because none of the Veteran Classes used it yet. Might change it.

Demons work differently. Like I said, edits to Dragoon and the addition of other classes made this one a bit redundant. So, the SHIELD now just works for all demons, and instead, each demon has some special abilities they inflict on their basic attacks (which have been simplified like dragons). I tried to keep the flavor of the archdemons in place with them, and all of them are made to buff the demonologist, rather than the demon. I think it does a good job of preserving the feel of the different sins while actually providing buffs. The old unique SHIELDS were good, but too similar to Weather Mage, and also the drawbacks were a bit much. So this time the drawbacks are all on the demons.

With them and the new SHIELD, I tried to make the differences between dragon and demon clear: one is a long-term battle companion, the other is a minion to be used and disposed of regularly.

I thought about changing demonologist's SHIELD, because it's basically Decamon Drafter's, and I still might, but as it stands it seems fine to me.

Too powerful? Not powerful enough? Remember it's intended to be a Master Class, not an Expert. I think most of what I've done here is trimming it out and making it simpler while trying to preserve the unique bits about the class, and I think I've done a decent job in that department.

DEMONOLOGIST

(Requires making a deal with a demon)

These corrupted souls have made a pact for power.

Additional Health: +30

Weapons: Demonologists can use powerful weapons like staves, broomsticks, longswords, maces, hammers and scythes. They can also use scrolls at the cost of health instead of ether.

Job Traits: Hellish Command - The demonologist can use the powers of the seven deadly sins to manipulate others into doing their bidding; Waking Nightmare - The demonologist can receive crucial information or vulgar reprimanding from their pacted demon; Unholy Sacrifice - The demonologist can sacrifice the health of their demonic minion under their control to restore twice the health sacrificed to themselves or an ally; Demonic Minion - The demonologist maintain a demonic minion at all times that can do their bidding; Your Unholiness - If there are currently demons in the enemy party, the demonologist is nimble while the enemy demons are enamored with the demonologist at the start of battle.

Battle Style: Demonic - Demonologists sacrifice health to unleash the powers of hell on their enemies.

1. SHIELD - Advocatus Diaboli - The demonologist opens a portal to Azazot, allowing the powers of the seven archdemons to be unleashed all at once. Minons of all seven archdemons are summoned into battle, bound to do the demonologist's bidding for one turn before being banished. This costs no health.

2. MORTAL SLAUGHTER/GREATER LIFE DRAIN: The demonologist attacks all enemies with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level and the amount of health they have lost. They then take damage equal to the number of targets struck. (WP 15x2 + 50 + 10 lost health = 90 damage to 10 targets, 10 damage taken). Instead of attacking the demonologist can drain health from the enemy by an amount equal to two times their level.

3. MORTAL HIT/LIFE DRAIN: The demonologist attacks with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level and the amount of health they have lost. (WP 15 + 50 + 10 lost health = 75 damage). Instead of attacking the demonologist can drain health from the enemy by an amount equal to their level.

4. MORTAL COUNTER/LESSER LIFE DRAIN: The demonologist is struck by the opponent's attack but attacks right back with strength equal to their weapon power added to their level and the amount of health they have lost. Instead of attacking, the demonologist can drain health from the enemy by an amount equal to half their level.

5. MIRROR DAMAGE: The demonologist is struck by the opponent's attack, but if the demonologist survives, they reflect the attack to cause the same amount of damage to the opponent regardless of defense or distance.

6. SPECIAL MIRROR: The demonologist is struck by their opponent's special attack, but the demonologist reflects it back to cause the same effect on the opponent.

DEMONIC MINION

The demonologist maintains a demonic ally to do their bidding. There are seven different demonic minions demonologists can have, but they only have one active at a time, except when SHIELD is rolled. Switching demonic minions costs 10 health from the demonologist, and can be done outside or inside combat at the cost of the demonologist's turn. Forming a pact with other demons potentially allows demonologists to summon new types of minions. Each type of demonic minion deals elemental damage corresponding to its type, and its attacks all have a special effect called a sin. All sins are nullified when the demon is defeated.

The demonic minion can be healed the same way heroes can, but once killed they must be resummoned by the demonologist at the cost of 10 health and one turn. It cannot carry, equip, or use items, but items can be used on them.

[Name of Demon] (demonic minion of [demon type], controlled by [player name])

Level: (Equal to the demonologist's and grows with them)

Base Health: 50 (+1 per level up)

Element: (Based on demon type)

Torment: (Based on demon type)

The demonic minion fights with the following skills, attacking the target the demonologist demands:

1. SHIELD: Damnation - The demonologist is done with their current servant. They sacrifice the demon, instantly killing it, and absorbing health equal to twenty times the demon's current health. The rest of the health is divided equally among the enemies as regular damage, ignoring row and defense.

2-4. DESTRUCTION: The demon deals elemental damage equal to its level at the cost of 3 of the demonologist's health. The demonologist can sacrifice more health to increase the attack's multiplier, adding one multiplier for every 3 health sacrificed. ((Level 50) x 3 (9 health sacrificed) = 150 elemental damage)

5. DAMAGE: The demon is struck by the opponent's attack.

6. UNBOUND: The demon is freed from the demonologist's control, dealing elemental damage to the demonologist equal to its level and then leaving battle immediately.

Servant of Abraxas:

Element: Lightning

Sin: Pride - This demon increases the defense of the demonologist by 3 with each successful hit.

Servant of Ahriman:

Element: Wind

Sin: Envy - This demon steals health equal to half of their damage dealt for the demonologist on successful hits.

Servant of Leviathan:

Element: Water

Sin: Sloth - This demon can take an extra turn in place of the demonologist's turn, or vice versa.

Servant of Marilith:

Element: Fire

Sin: Vengeance - This demon deals additional damage based on how much health the demonologist has lost.

Servant of Mephisto:

Element: Ice

Sin: Gluttony - All attacks targeting the demonologist are redirected to this demon.

Servant of Naamah:

Element: Earth

Sin: Greed - This demon steals gold for the demonologist equal to the enemy's level if they carry gold on successful hits.

Servant of Rosier:

Element: Wood

Sin: Lust - This demon's attacks cause targets to be enamored with the demonologist.

[JimBee]

Too powerful? Not powerful enough? Remember it's intended to be a Master Class, not an Expert. I think most of what I've done here is trimming it out and making it simpler while trying to preserve the unique bits about the class, and I think I've done a decent job in that department.

I agree! I think I would have simplified it along similar lines. I really like the changes to the abilities of the demons, they're both fitting and balanced. Scroll casting also makes sense. I do have a few suggestions.

First, I don't think there is enough health sacrifice. It is a very powerful class but there should be more of a risk/reward aspect. There are more ways to gain health than to lose it. Scroll casting is optional and really the only other way is Destruction, which should also cost more IMO. What if having the demon attack (regardless of roll) cost health? It'd be more predictable for the player but also riskier. The health sacrificed should be something like 10, or proportional to the demon's level.

Another way to solve this would be to go back to the Sacrificial Mortal Hits. The amount of health offered before an attack would be up to the player, so the amount of risk/reward would be arbitrary. I really like this mechanic but I can imagine some situations where it might get complicated.

Also, Unbound seems pretty weak. Basically the demons have no risk of triggering an enemy special, which can break a battle. To add to the risk/reward aspect, they should trigger the special to affect the Demonologist before destroying themselves.

Other than that, I think it's a pretty workable class! It's pretty unique and combines some aspects of advanced/expert classes that the other master classes do not. Summoning/crowd control like Evokers/Drafters/Dragoons/Necromancers, buffing allies rather than debuffing enemies (so that it doesn't take the spot of Weather Mage, and actually fits the role that Flipz and WBD picture Cavalier as), and a really nice risk/reward mechanic that sets it aside from Paragon, Prophet and Mime.

[CMP]

First, I don't think there is enough health sacrifice. It is a very powerful class but there should be more of a risk/reward aspect. There are more ways to gain health than to lose it. Scroll casting is optional and really the only other way is Destruction, which should also cost more IMO. What if having the demon attack (regardless of roll) cost health? It'd be more predictable for the player but also riskier. The health sacrificed should be something like 10, or proportional to the demon's level.

That's part of why I made the demon's SHIELD the way it is: to make the demonologist have to replace them more often, costing health. Mortal Slaughter costs health, and getting attacked still costs health too, you know.

I do like the demon costing health either way.

Also, Unbound seems pretty weak. Basically the demons have no risk of triggering an enemy special, which can break a battle. To add to the risk/reward aspect, they should trigger the special to affect the Demonologist before destroying themselves.

Other than that, I think it's a pretty workable class! It's pretty unique and combines some aspects of advanced/expert classes that the other master classes do not. Summoning/crowd control like Evokers/Drafters/Dragoons/Necromancers, buffing allies rather than debuffing enemies (so that it doesn't take the spot of Weather Mage, and actually fits the role that Flipz and WBD picture Cavalier as), and a really nice risk/reward mechanic that sets it aside from Paragon, Prophet and Mime.

True, I didn't even consider that for Unbound.

Yeah, it creates an interesting parallel with Dragoon (which is a feasible 'Master Class' as well) where instead of a dragon working side by side with the dragoon and being a powerful force in itself, the demon is inexorably tied to the demonologist and is pretty much purely around to augment his abilities and serve as a blood thrall.

[Flipz]

I was completely with you until this... why on earth shouldn't a master class be more attractive in every possible way than an Advanced Class?!

I just don't like it when there's exactly one class that makes perfect sense for every single character of a given class to advance to. It's why I dislike Raider outright (obvious choice for both Rogues and Barbarians), and why I tend to dislike the Knight->Paladin path; you end up just doing the exact same thing you were doing, just with more shiny things attached. It's the problem I had with Althior in most of 137, actually; he barely had to reconsider his playstyle at all, he just continued to act as a powerful Mage with an extra-fancy SHIELD. I appreciated it when he actually tried meditating in battle, because it was different than just saying "I cast [element] at [enemy weak to element]" and "repeat" for fourteen turns in a row. (No offense to you, K-Nut, it's really more a shortcoming in the class. ) I don't mind classes being more powerful, even to the point of being objectively better, I just want them to be different.

And yes, there's the Veteran Classes that do exactly that, but a.) unlike the other classes, that's the specific purpose, and b.) because of their unique abilities, the Veteran Classes actually do encourage a rethinking of strategy (case in point, Archmage's arc casting or Guardian Knight's Aura of Honor).

Let me ask you this, if Matthias were somehow granted Prophet access early (as in right now, in the middle of your battle), would your strategy change at all?

[Waterbrick Down]

I just don't like it when there's exactly one class that makes perfect sense for every single character of a given class to advance to.

But isn't that the point of the Master Classes, to outclass the others before them?

[Flipz]

But isn't that the point of the Master Classes, to outclass the others before them?

If it is, Paragon sure isn't doing a very good job of it, and Mime is apparently so unappealing that the only PC to take the class has left the game, satisfied with merely reaching it rather than playing as it.

[Asphalt]

Vindsval the Cavalier.

A giant riding an albino dino. Too much?

[Yzalirk]

Not sure if the format will be correct but here is an idea:

Name: Plunderer (Or Pirate)

Description: These greedy scalawags show no mercy when it comes to riches!

Additional Health: +13

Weapons: Plunderers fight solely with swords and handcannons.

Job Traits: Intimidation (See Berserker), Thar Be Booty! - Plunderer is able to recover gold from fallen foes (1-3: Gold half enemy level, 4-6: Gold equal to enemy level), Blast Through (See Cannoneer)

I am still not sure about the fighting style and stuff so any ideas are welcome. I was thinking that the Cannoneer's style would fit but then this class would seem like a knock-off.

[UsernameMDM]

Vindsval the Cavalier.

A giant riding an albino dino. Too much?

Not really, but I think he's more of a triceratops kinda half-giant:

Hoke's theoretical mount will be a surprise.

[Asphalt]

I own that, it is smaller than vindsval. But so darn cute.

[UsernameMDM]

I own that, it is smaller than vindsval. But so darn cute.

Would love to have one to update this guy. Maybe the heroes will face down one of these bad boys in Baltarok?

[JimBee]

That's part of why I made the demon's SHIELD the way it is: to make the demonologist have to replace them more often, costing health. Mortal Slaughter costs health, and getting attacked still costs health too, you know.

I missed that the first time around.

I just don't like it when there's exactly one class that makes perfect sense for every single character of a given class to advance to. It's why I dislike Raider outright (obvious choice for both Rogues and Barbarians), and why I tend to dislike the Knight->Paladin path; you end up just doing the exact same thing you were doing, just with more shiny things attached. It's the problem I had with Althior in most of 137, actually; he barely had to reconsider his playstyle at all, he just continued to act as a powerful Mage with an extra-fancy SHIELD. I appreciated it when he actually tried meditating in battle, because it was different than just saying "I cast [element] at [enemy weak to element]" and "repeat" for fourteen turns in a row. (No offense to you, K-Nut, it's really more a shortcoming in the class. ) I don't mind classes being more powerful, even to the point of being objectively better, I just want them to be different.

And yes, there's the Veteran Classes that do exactly that, but a.) unlike the other classes, that's the specific purpose, and b.) because of their unique abilities, the Veteran Classes actually do encourage a rethinking of strategy (case in point, Archmage's arc casting or Guardian Knight's Aura of Honor).

Let me ask you this, if Matthias were somehow granted Prophet access early (as in right now, in the middle of your battle), would your strategy change at all?

I disagree. Why do the actions have to be totally different to be new? In Matthias' case, I would imagine he would be spellcasting instead of meleeing as a Prophet, anyway. They also have the choice to heal or meditate. There are other options, like using items, too. And new build options.

To me the rolls don't make the master classes any less attractive.

If it is, Paragon sure isn't doing a very good job of it, and Mime is apparently so unappealing that the only PC to take the class has left the game, satisfied with merely reaching it rather than playing as it.

The only heroes who've actually reached level 50 are those who've consistently worn MoGs, and that's like 4. Mime is very appealing and you already know my plans to play as it.

[Flipz]

I disagree. Why do the actions have to be totally different to be new? In Matthias' case, I would imagine he would be spellcasting instead of meleeing as a Prophet, anyway. They also have the choice to heal or meditate. There are other options, like using items, too. And new build options.

To me the rolls don't make the master classes any less attractive.

It doesn't have to be a totally different strategy, but I feel that a player should have to stop and think after a class change if they want to be successful; sure, a Ranger can easily play Assassin exactly the same way they did before, but then they don't get the benefits of deliberately targeting enemies that aren't immune to instant kill, or a Mage can continue to play Sorcerer just like they did as a Mage, but then they miss out on targeting gold-carrying enemies to gain extra Gold. In Matthias' case, he has little to no reason to change up from melee attacks in the Back Row, because his weapon only does its AoE effects on physical attacks, and his healing is completely unchanged from Druid. I suppose he might choose to meditate once in a while, but if meditation is the defining feature of the class...well, I mean, that's also the exact part people are complaining about, isn't it?

And see, there's the problem; there's no drawback to the class when switching from Druid or even Sage. With most other class changes, you make the change because you know you'll have more fun with the new class, but it's because you'll gain the ability to do more cool things with the new class than you'll lose by leaving the old one; at the very least, you know your play experience will be different as your new class that it would be by keeping the old one. Now, I'm not saying we need to massively change-up Prophet to fix this particular problem, but if people are dead-set on changing things in the name of basically untested balance, then I'd like those changes to be in areas that will make Prophet feel different from just "better Druid" or "better Sage".

Mime is very appealing and you already know my plans to play as it.

...I think this must be the fifth time I've mixed up Hybros' and Benji's Master Class plans in my head.

[StickFig]

Let me ask you this, if Matthias were somehow granted Prophet access early (as in right now, in the middle of your battle), would your strategy change at all?

Nope, it's just a more powerful Druid with some extra perks thrown in. What's not to like?

I disagree. Why do the actions have to be totally different to be new? ... They also have the choice to heal or meditate. There are other options, like using items, too. And new build options.

Yep! Matthias is going to continue to be a healer who also likes to dabble in things which explode. But if Prophet becomes something other than "Awesome Druid," that leaves him 0% room for advancement through Expert (since there hasn't been Bonaparte rep like, ev4r), Veteran (Sylvan Ranger will be an interesting diversion), and Master classes.

In Matthias' case, I would imagine he would be spellcasting instead of meleeing as a Prophet, anyway.

In Matthias' case, he has little to no reason to change up from melee attacks in the Back Row, because his weapon only does its AoE effects on physical attacks, and his healing is completely unchanged from Druid.

Flipz has it right, but it's a good thing, not a bad one. We need to set apart the Basic/Advanced/Veteran/Master classes from the Expert classes, and maybe even set apart the Basic/Veteran and Advanced/Master classes. The Basic/Veteran classes are progression down the same play styles, at least at their core. Sure some mechanics change slightly, but if you played any other role-playing game for 40 levels and didn't gain new abilities that would suck. The Advanced/Master classes are, by and large, combinations of basic classes... again with a little more thrown in because who wants to advance without gaining abilities? What's the point of leveling up if you don't get something more? On the other hand, the Expert classes are a complete departure from any kind of progression whatsoever. They exist for flair, for interest, and, frankly, for something to break up the monotony of playing the same character for years (and years). It's a completely different mindset. I want Prophet to be "Druid on Steroids" because that's the progression that makes sense. Matthias shouldn't be the same Druid at 50 that he was at 20. But he is a Druid, and will be one at heart even if he makes it to Canonneer and/or Sylvan Ranger.

[CMP]

I think the issue Flipz is bringing up is the entire purpose of the Expert Classes. There's no defined advancement, it's more of a branch-off. I really like that, but that's its role. The Basic and Advanced classes should be pretty much eclipsed by Veteran and Master Classes though, because that's more of a direct advancement in my opinion.

Paragon and Prophet (and Mime) are amalgamations of the Basic Classes just like Advanced ones, but, well, they just get an extra one in there. I think the most basic progression path in terms of class tiers are Basic > Advanced > Master.

[Flipz]

There's still differences in advancing to Advanced classes, though. Druid is a straight upgrade from Cleric in every way, but it's still different; your healing is now even more important, and you have to manage your Ether so you have enough to raise your party on a SHIELD, not to mention attacking becomes even more viable with Aim and the ability to use ranged weapons. There's definite incentives there to change up your playstyle to make the most of your new class; with Prophet, there's zero reason to alter your existing playstyle. If you're a Druid with even a half-decent ranged weapon, there's zero reason to even try casting spells; if you're a Sage or another mage class with lots of gems, there's zero reason to even try healing or attacking physically. To my mind, a mix of three classes should also have a mixture of all three playstyles, the way the Advanced classes generally do, and frankly none of the non-Mime Master classes get that mixture quite right.

I want Prophet to be "Druid on Steroids" because that's the progression that makes sense. Matthias shouldn't be the same Druid at 50 that he was at 20. But he is a Druid, and will be one at heart even if he makes it to Canonneer and/or Sylvan Ranger.

But that's just it, if Matthias is going to be doing the exact same thing as a Prophet as he is as a Druid, how is that actually progressing? Matthias is still recognizable as being the same character he was as a Ranger, but since becoming a Druid his actions and behavior have changed--he now takes time out to heal his teammates, and he manages things like Ether supply that he didn't have to worry about before. So what is he going to do differently as a Prophet? Not cast spells, obviously, we both know his weapon is way too good for that. Meditate to restore Ether? Okay, that's different, but it's also the big thing that makes QMs want to give Prophet a one-way ticket to nerftown; unless we give Prophet a reason to be chewing through Ether ten times as quickly as any other class, it's very likely that the meditation will either get nerfed into the ground or axed entirely by the time Matthias gets to it, since the Ether restoration is what makes the combination attack and heal/revive so scary to QMs (that is, they can't Ether-starve Prophet the way they can Druid). Druid is already one of the most powerful (but balanced) classes in the game, so having Prophet be "better Druid" is both boring AND a major factor in making it a prime nerf target; the two problems go hand-in-hand.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Flipz

[Waterbrick Down]

There's still differences in advancing to Advanced classes, though. Druid is a straight upgrade from Cleric in every way, but it's still different; your healing is now even more important, and you have to manage your Ether so you have enough to raise your party on a SHIELD, not to mention attacking becomes even more viable with Aim and the ability to use ranged weapons. There's definite incentives there to change up your playstyle to make the most of your new class; with Prophet, there's zero reason to alter your existing playstyle. If you're a Druid with even a half-decent ranged weapon, there's zero reason to even try casting spells; if you're a Sage or another mage class with lots of gems, there's zero reason to even try healing or attacking physically. To my mind, a mix of three classes should also have a mixture of all three playstyles, the way the Advanced classes generally do, and frankly none of the non-Mime Master classes get that mixture quite right.

But that's just it, if Matthias is going to be doing the exact same thing as a Prophet as he is as a Druid, how is that actually progressing? Matthias is still recognizable as being the same character he was as a Ranger, but since becoming a Druid his actions and behavior have changed--he now takes time out to heal his teammates, and he manages things like Ether supply that he didn't have to worry about before. So what is he going to do differently as a Prophet? Not cast spells, obviously, we both know his weapon is way too good for that. Meditate to restore Ether? Okay, that's different, but it's also the big thing that makes QMs want to give Prophet a one-way ticket to nerftown; unless we give Prophet a reason to be chewing through Ether ten times as quickly as any other class, it's very likely that the meditation will either get nerfed into the ground or axed entirely by the time Matthias gets to it, since the Ether restoration is what makes the combination attack and heal/revive so scary to QMs (that is, they can't Ether-starve Prophet the way they can Druid). Druid is already one of the most powerful (but balanced) classes in the game, so having Prophet be "better Druid" is both boring AND a major factor in making it a prime nerf target; the two problems go hand-in-hand.

It's worth noting, that while Prophet is not a big change in play style for Druid's, that doesn't hold true for other advanced/basic classes, Hunter to Prophet is a gigantic playstyle shift and one of the reasons why I don't forsee Skrall ever going there.

[Flipz]

It's worth noting, that while Prophet is not a big change in play style for Druid's, that doesn't hold true for other advanced/basic classes, Hunter to Prophet is a gigantic playstyle shift and one of the reasons why I don't forsee Skrall ever going there.

Fair enough, but then Hunter is half-Barbarian, so it's already a big shift in losing that. The three ACs you really have to look at for Prophet are Druid, Sage, and Evoker, since those are the three whose base classes make up Prophet; likewise, you kind of have to compare Paragon to Berserker, Raider, and Black Knight. I'd argue that Prophet does just fine in advancement from Evoker (since what you lose in the summon you gain in the healing abilities), but not so much in advancement from Druid or Sage.

[Waterbrick Down]

Fair enough, but then Hunter is half-Barbarian, so it's already a big shift in losing that. The three ACs you really have to look at for Prophet are Druid, Sage, and Evoker, since those are the three whose base classes make up Prophet; likewise, you kind of have to compare Paragon to Berserker, Raider, and Black Knight. I'd argue that Prophet does just fine in advancement from Evoker (since what you lose in the summon you gain in the healing abilities), but not so much in advancement from Druid or Sage.

Yes but it's three compared to eleven; Shaman, Paladin, Witch, Hunter, Assassin, Evoker, Warden, Battle Mage, Mystic Knight, & Sorcerer and by including any of the abilities from the other advanced classes, you'll end up with the exact same position Druid, Sage, and Prophet are in .

[Flipz]

Yes but it's three compared to eleven; Shaman, Paladin, Witch, Hunter, Assassin, Evoker, Warden, Battle Mage, Mystic Knight, & Sorcerer and by including any of the abilities from the other advanced classes, you'll end up with the exact same position Druid, Sage, and Prophet are in .

See, I don't really see that as equivalent, since for those eight you have to give something up to make the switch to Prophet; you give up being half-Knight or half-Rogue or half-Barbarian to become 1/3 Cleric, 1/3 Mage, and 1/3 Ranger, although really it's more like 2/3 Cleric, 1/4 Ranger, and 1/12 Mage. Switching from Hunter or Assassin or Sorcerer or Mystic Knight or Paladin or Witch or Battle Mage or Shaman into Prophet isn't like advancing up a tier from Basic into Advanced, it's more like switching to a different Advanced Class and then advancing up a tier.

To be clear, I don't think that Prophet should be grabbing abilities from the Advanced Classes other than Evoker, Druid, and Sage, and of course the respective base classes. (Although, that does bring up a thought...what if, instead of deliberate meditation, Prophet could summon elemental spirits? That would better represent the Mage side of the class, restoring the balance that way (sure, you CAN play it as "better Druid", but then you miss out on a legitimately useful aspect, just like you'd miss out on the great healing abilities by playing it as "better Evoker") while also eliminating its ability to be 100% self-sufficient, which allows QMs to Ether-starve it, so its power comes at a legitimate cost.)

[UsernameMDM]

Anyway, are we buffing the Paragon or what?

[StickFig]

it's very likely that the meditation will either get nerfed into the ground or axed entirely by the time Matthias gets to it, since the Ether restoration is what makes the combination attack and heal/revive so scary to QMs...

QMs should be scared of a level 50 character! And no one is scared of Druids; Matthias is just a walking box of possible Phoenix Essence/Incenses.

What QM isn't scared of Guts? He's not even level 50 yet, right?

1/3 Cleric, 1/3 Mage, and 1/3 Ranger, although really it's more like 2/3 Cleric, 1/4 Ranger, and 1/12 Mage

This isn't Prophet's problem. This is Druid's problem, and even Cleric's. The healing mechanic is completely different from anything any other class does; sure summoning is "different," but it's really just dealing damage in a different way. Stealing gold is different, but everyone gets loot every battle. Casting spells, again, just another way of dealing damage. But Cleric/Druid/Prophets can affect the party in a big way. Really it takes a Minstrel, or maybe you could stretch Skirmisher, to make an impact that is that different on a party.

Any class you make that has the heal/revival ability is going to end up playing exactly like Druid because there's nothing else that comes close to filling that role.

[Rider Raider]

Anyway, are we buffing the Paragon or what?

We should. At the bare minimum we could at least replace truce. Even a miss would do better.

[Palathadric]

Anyway, are we buffing the Paragon or what?

Back on topic, people!