Orc Forge as an Army Builder?

[Falconer]

Lurtz can be generic, as far as I’m concerned. He’s not in the books, and to me he didn’t even really stand out as a unique character in the movies (I don’t think the name “Lurtz” is even spoken in the movies). Uglúk would be a different story.

[HawkLord]

Shelbo has a name, sure, but she is nothing more than a big dumb creature, she isn't a scheming plotting entity. She has nothing to do with Sauron or the main power struggle going on throughout the trilogy.

Whoa! Now, I don't like to pull the whole "Tolkien Lore" card, but seriously this is completely off.

Shelob was rumored to have been born in the First Age of Middle Earth, making her thousands of years old. She was a spawn of Ungoliant, who let's just say was a evil spirit in the form of a spider. And let's just say that this spirit was so powerful that in one battle it took multiple Balrogs to drive her away.

As for Shelob having nothing to do with Sauron, that's not true. Sauron actually was aware that Shelob dwelled in Mordor and allowed her to stay there because she was proficient at guarding the various tunnels and networks.

Shelob is a major player in the LOTR/Tolkien.

[Jimbobulus]

I'd LOVE a Hobbit Battle Pack!

Along with the usual short-sword wielding, short cape clad hobbit, Put in the old gaffer and give him a shovel, wheelbarrow filled with 'taters and other vegetables to throw at Orcs! (In the spirit of the "Mill Village Raid" set).

And some female hobbit peasants as well! I WANT FEMALE HOBBIT MINIFIGURES! :wub:

Rosie Cotton should be made... maybe in a "Return To The Shire" Set

For me, I agree with the majority in that the Orc Forge is not a very good Army Builder.

[Deathleech]

He attempted to murder Frodo and actually succeeded in biting off his finger and also killed Deagol. Seem's evil to me.

Ya, he did all that only because the ring had control over him. Boromir also tried to take the ring from Frodo, and might of done it or worse had Frodo not put the ring on to disappear. Does that make Boromir evil as well? I'm not saying Gollum's actions weren't evil, but he didn't have much control over them. In case you missed it, that's kind of the whole plot with Gollum, the struggle within himself to be good and not succumb to the Rings sway. It's mentioned multiple times by Gandalf and Frodo and can be seen when Gollum/Smeagol talks to himself.

Whoa! Now, I don't like to pull the whole "Tolkien Lore" card, but seriously this is completely off.

Shelob was rumored to have been born in the First Age of Middle Earth, making her thousands of years old. She was a spawn of Ungoliant, who let's just say was a evil spirit in the form of a spider. And let's just say that this spirit was so powerful that in one battle it took multiple Balrogs to drive her away.

As for Shelob having nothing to do with Sauron, that's not true. Sauron actually was aware that Shelob dwelled in Mordor and allowed her to stay there because she was proficient at guarding the various tunnels and networks.

Shelob is a major player in the LOTR/Tolkien.

No offense, but you didn't really prove anything except exactly what I was stating. Shelob was nothing more than a predator looking for prey. Are lions, bears, sharks, etc. considered "evil" or "bad guys"? No, they are simply animals trying to survive and to do so they need to hunt other animals.

You say she was guarding the tunnels for Sauron? I doubt she knew that or really cared about Sauron at all, she just did it for the prey. It's even said she kills orcs when she gets hungry, and orcs serve Sauron. It's not like Sauron told Shelob to go kill Frodo and she did it. Heck, Sauron didn't even know Frodo was in Morodor even after Shelob attacked him so obviously there was no communication going on between the two. Shelob may of helped Sauron out, but she didn't do it willingly or knowingly, her presence just so happened to assist him.

And I find it funny it took multiple Balrogs to drive her away, when a little chubby Hobbit with a glowing vial was able to drive her away as well

Edited July 21, 2012 by Deathleech

[Captain Settle]

In term's of Boromir being evil he earned redemption by giving his life to save the hobbit's. Smeagol did nothing to be good or earn redemption. Just because he sometimes want's to be good doesn't mean he is good. Anyway I really wanted to say that, but this thread is now becoming who is good or bad in lotr and not if orc forge is an army builder.

[SheepEater]

Well technically, Orc Forge IS an army builder. It spawns Orcs from the ground and builds weapons for them.

[Jimbobulus]

Ya, he did all that only because the ring had control over him. Boromir also tried to take the ring from Frodo, and might of done it or worse had Frodo not put the ring on to disappear. Does that make Boromir evil as well? I'm not saying Gollum's actions weren't evil, but he didn't have much control over them. In case you missed it, that's kind of the whole plot with Gollum, the struggle within himself to be good and not succumb to the Rings sway. It's mentioned multiple times by Gandalf and Frodo and can be seen when Gollum/Smeagol talks to himself.

No offense, but you didn't really prove anything except exactly what I was stating. Shelob was nothing more than a predator looking for prey. Are lions, bears, sharks, etc. considered "evil" or "bad guys"? No, they are simply animals trying to survive and to do so they need to hunt other animals.

You say she was guarding the tunnels for Sauron? I doubt she knew that or really cared about Sauron at all, she just did it for the prey. It's even said she kills orcs when she gets hungry, and orcs serve Sauron. It's not like Sauron told Shelob to go kill Frodo and she did it. Heck, Sauron didn't even know Frodo was in Morodor even after Shelob attacked him so obviously there was no communication going on between the two. Shelob may of helped Sauron out, but she didn't do it willingly or knowingly, her presence just so happened to assist him.

And I find it funny it took multiple Balrogs to drive her away, when a little chubby Hobbit with a glowing vial was able to drive her away as well

Have to disagree with you Deathleech. Have you read the books? Sauron and Shelob had an unofficial 'agreement' - she would guard the passage, he would leave her alone, and occasionally throw her surplus orcs/prisoners. She certainly has a mind, could process ideas, etc, and was definitely evil. She is also much more intelligent than normal 'animals'.

I would also argue that "Gollum", the schizophrenic being inside of Smeagols head, is evil, a cancer living off of Smeagols body. "Smeagol" is not evil, was at one time pure hearted. When "Gollum" overpowers "Smeagol", that being is now enrtirely "Gollum", "Smeagol" is destroyed in essence, and the remaining creature "Gollum" is most definitely evil. Gollum and Smeagol are two different beings trapped in one body, so to speak.

Also, both Shelob and Gollum were included in the Warhammer packs as "evil", so I think that settles it

[HawkLord]

No offense, but you didn't really prove anything except exactly what I was stating. Shelob was nothing more than a predator looking for prey. Are lions, bears, sharks, etc. considered "evil" or "bad guys"? No, they are simply animals trying to survive and to do so they need to hunt other animals.

You say she was guarding the tunnels for Sauron? I doubt she knew that or really cared about Sauron at all, she just did it for the prey. It's even said she kills orcs when she gets hungry, and orcs serve Sauron. It's not like Sauron told Shelob to go kill Frodo and she did it. Heck, Sauron didn't even know Frodo was in Morodor even after Shelob attacked him so obviously there was no communication going on between the two. Shelob may of helped Sauron out, but she didn't do it willingly or knowingly, her presence just so happened to assist him.

And I find it funny it took multiple Balrogs to drive her away, when a little chubby Hobbit with a glowing vial was able to drive her away as well

I did actually prove the point when I stated that Shelob was born sometime in the First Age. Hence, she's at least a couple thousand years old. Now to survive in all that time takes alot more intelligence than your example of the average lion or bear. Sure, they're great predators, but not on the same level as a fantasy creature. Middle Earth is an entirely different place that most would consider to be much more dangerous than our world, meaning surviving there would take alot more effort, let alone surviving for so long is a place of evil such as Mordor.

You also didn't read my post thoroughly, Shelob's mother was the one driven away by a throng of Balrogs, not Shelob herself. Plus, if you were paying attention, you'd also remember that the "glowing vial" was a very powerful elven magic item, as was Sting, a powerful elven magic sword. And I won't even go into the idea that the Ring may have played a part in Sam' success, as surely it did not want to sit inside the belly of a Spider forever.

As mentioned, you really should read the books entirely and try to have a firmer grasp of the subject before you speak on it. There are whole courses taught at universities on the subject of Middle Earth and Tolkien fiction - so there's alot to appreciate.

[Deathleech]

All that may be true, but what is Shelob's driving factor? What are her motives? Does she plan to raise an army, conquer all the free people, and enslave them like Sauron or Sauramon? Is she a high ranking officer in either of their armies? No, she is none of these and that's what I meant when I said we don't see any main evil characters in the first wave. She may be "evil", but she is not the main driving antagonist in the film with the same motives like the other evil characters are. If she would of killed Frodo that would of been the last we would of seen of her, it's not like she would of raised an army and went out and conquered Gondor/Rohan/etc.

Also here is a quote from TT, take specific note of the underlined/bolded part please:

"But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness."

Here is another excerpt from the wiki:

"It proved to be beneficial to them both: in return for protecting the most secret passes into Sauron's domain, Shelob got free reign to do as she would. On occasion Sauron even left prisoners where she could find and devour them, or sent servants who displeased him there to their doom. Sauron with a rare show of humour called her "his cat", as she functioned like a cat, being a pet that did not accept his authority. She knew and cared little for rings or towers, existing only to gorge her insatiable appetite for flesh and blood."

Both demonstrate EXACTLY what I said. Their relationship was beneficial but Shelob did not willingly help Sauron. Sauron kept her around because she aided him, while Shelob unknowingly helped him out just with her normal activity. I'm sorry but you aren't really making any sort of point here other than Shelob may of been smarter than your average real world predator. That's great, but my point all along was we don't get any main evil characters in the first wave. If you guys are seriously arguing Gollum/Shelob are anywhere on the same level as the Witch King, Sauromon, and Sauron then you need your heads checked because that simply is not so. You don't need to study Tolkien's work intensively to figure that out, you just need some common sense.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Deathleech

[MCNwakeboard]

Rosie Cotton should be made... maybe in a "Return To The Shire" Set

Here is my version of Rosie:

Sorry to be off topic. I don't see the Orc Forge as an army builder set, but since it is the only source of the white hand armour, I will probably buy more than one.

[purpleparadox]

Here is my version of Rosie:

Fantastic job! Is that hairpiece official, or is it just a painted hairpiece from that Series 6 Female Astronaut? I'll wait for an official Rosie minifig...but if we don't get one within two years, I'm customizing.

[MCNwakeboard]

Is that hairpiece official

Its an official hair piece from the Fitness Instructor in series 5. I actually haven't found much of a use for it but I thought it was the best fit for Rosie's hair. I think an official one would be great and since there is a lack of females in the movies, it might be one that gets officially made (doubtful though)

[Titan]

That's a nice looking Rosie!

Fantastic job! Is that hairpiece official, or is it just a painted hairpiece from that Series 6 Female Astronaut? I'll wait for an official Rosie minifig...but if we don't get one within two years, I'm customizing.

I think it's an official one from the series 5 instructor. *edit* Ack! MCNwakeboard beat me to it.

And Deathleech, I think either the UHA or the OF can be considered as an army builder because we don't have any other options at the moment. Not blaming the corporate world, but if the consumers are willing to shell out $30 and $40 for minifigs, why put out $12.99 battle packs now... wink wink....

Edited July 22, 2012 by Titan

[HawkLord]

Here is another excerpt from the wiki:

"It proved to be beneficial to them both: in return for protecting the most secret passes into Sauron's domain, Shelob got free reign to do as she would."[/b][/u]

Both demonstrate EXACTLY what I said. Their relationship was beneficial but Shelob did not willingly help Sauron.

So, even within your own arguement, you still can't make any sense. You picked a quote that references Shelob recieving free reign in Sauron's tunnels in exchange for guarding them and yet you don't think that Sauron and Shelob had a deal? You don't think they ever talked about this? Or that Shelob was willingly helping Sauron? How does Shelob protect something of value to Sauron and is then not considered to be helping him?

I'm sorry, I can't help you anymore with this.

Here is my version of Rosie:

That Rosie is perfect.

[Deathleech]

So, even within your own arguement, you still can't make any sense. You picked a quote that references Shelob recieving free reign in Sauron's tunnels in exchange for guarding them and yet you don't think that Sauron and Shelob had a deal? You don't think they ever talked about this? Or that Shelob was willingly helping Sauron? How does Shelob protect something of value to Sauron and is then not considered to be helping him?

Did you simply not read the quotes, or did you just not comprehend them? Let me repeat the bolded parts:

"and she served none but herself"

"being a pet that did not accept his authority. She knew and cared little for rings or towers, existing only to gorge her insatiable appetite for flesh and blood."

It CLEARLY states she only acted as a predator and did what she did to feed. She served no one but herself. Sauron and her never discussed things or had a deal. She wasn't helping him because she wanted to, she never went to Sauron and said "hey let me stay in Morodor and I will guard the tunnels for you". Instead she was helping him because her natural predatory habits just so happened to aid him in guarding the tunnels.

I'm sorry but you have yet to show me how Shelob is little more than an animal acting as a predator. Both my quotes supported this stance and nothing you have said has proven otherwise. In fact you have only further supported what I said all along. Now if you have something else to say regarding the subject, I would love to hear it. Otherwise can we stop derailing the thread and actually get back on topic? No one has yet to show me how Shelob, or Gollum for that matter, are anywhere near the same league as Sauron, Sauramon, or the Witch King in terms of being main evil characters.

[SheepEater]

Here is my version of Rosie:

:wub: :wub:

Nice use of Elizabeth Swann from the PotC theme.

Ehrm,... to stay on topic... the Orc Forge, like 9471, is an oddity is that it makes sense for more than one to exist. In the movie, the underground of Isengard was HUGE. There were dozens of Forges like the one depicted in 9476. In my mind I have imagined a big Isengard lego display with a lone Orthanc tower set surrounded by 5-6 Orc Forges, all of being below ground level.

Edited July 22, 2012 by SheepEater

[Jimbobulus]

Did you simply not read the quotes, or did you just not comprehend them? Let me repeat the bolded parts:

"and she served none but herself"

"being a pet that did not accept his authority. She knew and cared little for rings or towers, existing only to gorge her insatiable appetite for flesh and blood."

It CLEARLY states she only acted as a predator and did what she did to feed. She served no one but herself. Sauron and her never discussed things or had a deal. She wasn't helping him because she wanted to, she never went to Sauron and said "hey let me stay in Morodor and I will guard the tunnels for you". Instead she was helping him because her natural predatory habits just so happened to aid him in guarding the tunnels.

I'm sorry but you have yet to show me how Shelob is little more than an animal acting as a predator. Both my quotes supported this stance and nothing you have said has proven otherwise. In fact you have only further supported what I said all along. Now if you have something else to say regarding the subject, I would love to hear it. Otherwise can we stop derailing the thread and actually get back on topic? No one has yet to show me how Shelob, or Gollum for that matter, are anywhere near the same league as Sauron, Sauramon, or the Witch King in terms of being main evil characters.

Quite simply, Shelob does more damage to Frodo than anything else in the whole trilogy. So she certainly isn't good, and is certainly a major factor in the books.

Secondly, Shelob and Gollum strike a deal with each other. Yes, they physically strike up a deal, intentionally. She will not eat Gollum, if he brings her food occasionally. Also, Gollum is allowed to pass through her caves. This deal was done independently of Sauron. This clearly shows that she had a mind of her own perfectly capable of formulating her own plots and plans. So what if all she wants to do is eat? Hobbits don't want too much more than that themselves yet they aren't animals. This point also clearly shows how Gollum is evil. The idea that either of these characters aren't evil is madness.

EDIT: Gollum voted as the 10th most evil movie chracter ever, plus a quote "he [Gollum]murdered Déagol (presumably a relative, though this is never stated) to get the Ring, which Déagol had found in the Anduin. The Ring amplified his evil tendencies and he took to spying and stealing."

http://www.ew.com/ew/gallery/0,,20483133_20509776_20988516,00.html

http://www.theonering.net/torwp/the-hobbit/characters/gollum/

Evil enough for you?

Edited July 22, 2012 by Jimbobulus

[SheepEater]

She will not eat Gollum

Considering there's hardly any meat on his bones, Shelob doesn't lose much on this deal there.

To stay on topic again, ehrm... I wanna make my Orc Forge into a large catapult/trebuchet for the Orcs to use against Helm's Deep. Or a siege tower. Or a battering ram. That's gotta count as something for army building.

Edited July 22, 2012 by SheepEater

[Sirens-of-Titan]

Poll added. If you want to add/change questions PM me and I'll update the poll. Cheers.

-S-o-T

[Deathleech]

Quite simply, Shelob does more damage to Frodo than anything else in the whole trilogy. So she certainly isn't good, and is certainly a major factor in the books.

Only because she is the only one who really comes in contact with him. Other than her, Frodo is pretty much able to slip under the radar and go unnoticed to the rest of Sauron's forces. Though he did get stabbed by the Witch King, which I assume did far more damage to him than Shelob as he says his shoulder still hurts from the stabbing more than a year later.

Secondly, Shelob and Gollum strike a deal with each other. Yes, they physically strike up a deal, intentionally. She will not eat Gollum, if he brings her food occasionally. Also, Gollum is allowed to pass through her caves. This deal was done independently of Sauron. This clearly shows that she had a mind of her own perfectly capable of formulating her own plots and plans. So what if all she wants to do is eat? Hobbits don't want too much more than that themselves yet they aren't animals. This point also clearly shows how Gollum is evil. The idea that either of these characters aren't evil is madness.

We were talking about Sauron and Shelob having a deal, not Gollum and Shelob. Regardless though, I'm still not seeing how that makes her inherently evil or on the same scale as say Sauron or Sauromon. So she lets Gollum live if he brings food to her cave? Big deal, real world people and animals have the exact same coexistence and have for thousands of years. Dogs sniffing out pray and being rewarded with food, birds traveling long distances and being fed, etc.

Gollum I see more as being mind controlled and that's what lead to his evil actions rather than being inherently evil himself. Had he never came in contact with the one Ring, do you think he would of done anything bad? I don't. The ring is known to twist and control people because that was how it was created. It only has one master and everyone else it just warps as can be seen by how almost everyone reacts to it, no matter how good they originally are. Shelob, as I already stated, just seems to be more worried about killing to feed herself (and her brood?) than anything else, much like a predator. Ok, so she is smarter than your average real world predatory but that doesn't change her motives one bit. You guys keep arguing Shelob is soo evil but have yet to provide a SINGLE example where she kills for any other reason than to feast.

I mean I suppose both these characters can be seen as evil because of their actions and they are antagonist coming in conflict with the protagonist, but I just don't seem them as main evil characters in the LotR trilogy. They are no worse than your common orc grunt. That was my whole point, we don't see any main evil characters. To me that's Sauron and Sauromon (and maybe to a lesser degree the Witch King since he was a high ranking officer). These three all wanted to conquer everyone else and enslave them.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Deathleech

[HawkLord]

To stay on topic again, ehrm... I wanna make my Orc Forge into a large catapult/trebuchet for the Orcs to use against Helm's Deep. Or a siege tower. Or a battering ram. That's gotta count as something for army building.

You know, I think when Lego starts rolling out The Two Towers sets with Treebeard and/or Ents (hopefully they will), I think the Orc Forge might get a boost in popularity. I mean, I really like the set already, but it'll be pretty cool to have some Ents crashing thru it to re-create some of the mayhem in the Battle of Isengard scene. Granted, Orc Forge is one of the underground structures in that scene, some (if not all) of the elements could probably work for an above ground scene, as well.

In any event, I can see the Orc Forge as being an army-builder set, just a really expensive one by comparison.

[Leo604]

If Orc Forge had more Uruk-hai and maybe even a Warg or 2, I'd consider it an army builder. Right now, Uruk-hai army is probably the set to get for that type of purpose; the big structure thing in Orc Forge kind of defeats said purpose.

[SheepEater]

Deathleech, it's SARUMAN, not "Sauromon"

Sorry, but I felt that someone needed to point it out to you.

Edited July 23, 2012 by SheepEater

[Deathleech]

Ya sorry, that's a bad habit of mine from when I was younger. I will prolly do it plenty more times too, despite me being well aware of the proper spelling

Also, it's interesting to note at least some people view the Orc Forge as an army builder. After reading the first couple of pages it didn't seem like anyone was really.

[Ferrik]

It could be an army-builder but I don't really think of it that way because the set itself is great and has many excellent parts for MOCs.