Samsonite (USA/Canada) LEGO discussion

[Blondie-Wan]

Homer_S, have you tried asking LEGO itself? They might be able to tell you...

[jonwil]

Homer_S, have you tried asking LEGO itself? They might be able to tell you...

For a set this old that was only available in Canada? I doubt LEGO has information on its contents.

Heck, I doubt LEGO has information on the contents of even more recent sets.

[Homer_S]

For a set this old that was only available in Canada? I doubt LEGO has information on its contents.

Heck, I doubt LEGO has information on the contents of even more recent sets.

I agree. Does a set that was only in Canada make it more valuable?

[LEGO Historian]

TLG has very little information available in their archives on old "special" Samsonite LEGO sets. Samsonite sometimes "did their own thing" (according to TLG)... and Department Store Catalog sets were among the major sets in that category. So TLG has a lot of "gaps" in their set listings for not only Canada and USA Samsonite... but also 1950s Norway and Sweden.

When I started my comprehensive research on my LEGO E-Book collectors guide... I got a lot of help (and images) from the TLG Archives and Collections. And in return I gave them a lot of images and info about the above 4 mentioned countries that they were unaware of..... (another reason you should get my 2,800 page E-Book! ).

One of the things I enjoy sharing in my E-Book is information that gets people to think... not just statistics, counts and years.

One area is this image below from a 1975 Canadian Eaton's Catalog LEGO page.

It shows 4 sets that were introduced in 1973 in Europe/Britain/Australia... but not introduced into Canada until 1974.

1973 was also the year a new LEGO logo was introduced (similar to the 1998 introduced current one). What is so puzzling is that the 2 smaller sets show the new 1973 LEGO logo. But the larger sets 7 and 8 were introduced with the pre-1973 old LEGO logo (with open "O", and with "Building Toy" written in both English and French (common to earlier Canadian Samsonite sets).

Why would Samsonite of Canada introduce a pair of sets in 1974... with older 1972 LEGO logos? TLG has no known explanation... and neither do I... but I make it a point to show folks the "LEGO Mayhem" that is common to so many things that LEGO (Samsonite and TLG) did that just don't make sense!!

[Faefrost]

Really neat old set. Can anyone actually guess what the "model"(?) shown in the lower right pic on the box is supposed to be? Because my first though at looking at it is someone in the 1970's Lego design team might have been inhalling just a little to deeply over the molten plastic vats?

[Homer_S]

Really neat old set. Can anyone actually guess what the "model"(?) shown in the lower right pic on the box is supposed to be? Because my first though at looking at it is someone in the 1970's Lego design team might have been inhalling just a little to deeply over the molten plastic vats?

Gravel Quarry 360-1

Or did you mean on the 78 set? Its a stack of little houses.

Edited September 8, 2012 by Homer_S

[Fugazi]

Merging this with the Samsonite discussion thread.

[LEGO Historian]

I agree. Does a set that was only in Canada make it more valuable?

There aren't a lot of sets that were Canada only... but there are about 20. One of the most interesting is what is known as the Double Wheel Toy Set of 1963-66... a large blue LEGO locomotiive set. This Samsonite LEGO set was only sold in USA and Canada.

In the USA version... the box was very tall (as were USA sets 702, 703, 605 and 905). And the box doesn't quite look like a model set, so the USA version has generally not been as desirable as the Canadian version....

USA version....

http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItemPic.asp?O=610-4

Canadian version....

http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItemPic.asp?O=610-3

I remember seeing the USA version selling on EBAY for $18 a few years back... and a few months later the Canadian version sold for $383.

Of course auctions are always dependent on "a good day" where more people are interested in a particular item.

[LEGO Historian]

When TLG started expanding worldwide in the 1960s, the small Danish company that only had as few as 140 employees when LEGO founder Ole Kirk Christiansen Died at 67 in 1958, was at a crossroads.... They were just barely able to keep up in Europe (licensing some production out to individuals and companies in Norway, Sweden, Finland and elsewhere)... but when they wanted to start LEGO sales in Britain/Ireland in 1960, USA/Canada in 1961/62, and Australia in 1962... they were overwhelmed.

So what TLG did, was to get large chemical companies to license the product to in the early 1960s.

In Britain and Ireland in 1960 (and 1962 in Australia), the British chemical/textile giant Courtauld's Corp. became the licensee for LEGO in those 3 countries.

In USA in 1961 and Canada in 1962 the North American suitcase maker Samsonite (still officially known by the name of its' 1910 founding 4 brothers as "Shwayder Bros.") became the LEGO licensee for those 2 countries.

How did all this happen? Well it was more of those infamous Scandinavian Ferry Boat Crossing that 2nd generation LEGO head Godtfred Kirk Christiansen kept taking to other countries. In 1954 his ferry trip to England, he got the ear of a department store manager who complained there was no "System" for toys anymore. That was the inspiration behind the "10 Principles of the LEGO System" that were implemented in 1955, and started the small company onto its' multi-billion dollar future.

And it was later ferry crossings with Courtauld's and Shwayder high level management on board that got the LEGO licencees started in the larger markets.

So Shwayder Bros. changed their name to Samsonite in 1965, and the rest is history.... but not so fast... something odd happened between 1970 and 1973 in the USA. From the 1961 start of LEGO sales in the USA... until 1973... Samsonite was selling LEGO like they were selling suitcases (often in department store catalogs)... according to a 4th generation Shwayder founding family member. TLG's take on it was that USA Samsonite was "underperforming"... and with annual sales of only $5 million... that was the case.

So in 1970 (a year with normal LEGO set production and catalog)... something odd happened in the USA. That was the last year where regular LEGO sets and catalogs were produced. It is thought that TLG started litigation that year to get their license back from Samsonite. The 1971, 1972 and early 1973 LEGO sales were in very odd boxes, and very little selection.. and there was only 1 customer LEGO catalog for those 2 1/2 years. Also, the word "SAMSONITE" became larger than "LEGO" on the boxes... a definite no-no for TLG... except that Samsonite already likely knew that their USA sales days were numbered at their Loveland Colorado LEGO production facility.

Here is a page of the 1972 Samsonite "RETAILER" catalog... there were only 5 sets... and only 3 spare parts packs (on a different page). The parts packs were a wheel set, a decorator set (extra windows/trees/ fences), and 2 rare 40x40 stud baseplates.

But the 5 basic sets they produced their last 2 1/2 years (#101, #102, #103, #104 and #105, USA only sets) were ENORMOUS... and they hid the secret of Samsonite's soon demise in selling LEGO, with the license going back to TLG around August 1973.

You will notice how huge the word SAMSONITE is on these 5 very large boxes. They already knew that their LEGO days were numbered, and no longer cared about toe-ing the TLG corporate line about how to make the LEGO logo on the boxes.

Also... at the top of this page it mentions "Through advances in production technology we are able to offer the consumer nearly double the parts at a lower price". That was not true... what they were doing was dumping the last of their LEGO plastic pellets and parts inventory before the Aug. 1973 end date for LEGO sales... and they were creating huge boxes of LEGO, some with over 900 parts (in Sear's catalogs, some very large sets had nearly 1300 parts). So they were selling it at bargain prices just to clear out their remaining ABS inventory. Some parts... such as yellow bricks were already nearly depleted by 1972.

Here is another set... the #695 Bulk Assortment Set, a set dating to about 1972-73... no 2 sets have the same contents (as can be seen by the 3 shown examples (2 are MISB). Also notice almost no yellow parts... and have you ever seen such a strange plastic compartment or non-colorful outer box sleeve? Samsonite no longer cared about these things... they just wanted to get rid of the last of the parts they had in inventory... and by the look of it... they had a lot of blue parts left over.

This 1972-73 #695 Bulk Assortment set is one of those rare instances where a parts inventory can never be gotten... since it seems unlikely that any 2 sets contained the same parts.

Well anyway... by August 1973 Samsonite was finished with LEGO sales in the USA. The production of USA LEGO moved to Brookfield Connecticut (soon thereafter to Enfield).

In Canada, Samsonite continued to toe the TLG line however... and they continued production until 1985, when TLG bought the license back from Samsonite of Canada. After 1985 Canadian sales and production were transfered to Enfield Connecticut in the USA.

And the British/Irish/Australian licensee Courtauld's, also toe-ed the line better... and TLG bought their license back in 1992, thus ending 30 years of LEGO production at Courtauld's Wrexham Wales factory... but that's a story for another day.

All this historic LEGO information can be found in 1/2 dozen chapters on LEGO in my DVD/download... especially in the last chapter... "Chapter 73 - LEGO Sales by Country"....

... which can still be found for sale in the Eurobricks Bazaar or elsewhere.

Edited January 8, 2013 by LEGO Historian

[Hey Joe]

TLG's take on it was that USA Samsonite was "underperforming"... and with annual sales of only $5 million... that was the case.

Interesting, thanks. Perhaps it's impossible and/or difficult to answer or even speculate but I wonder what Lego considered 'performing' to be? $5 million seems like a respectable amount of early '70's dollars.

[Blondie-Wan]

Wow, that's really interesting; thanks for sharing! I'd have to agree with TLG here - the boxes with the huge "SAMSONITE" dwarfing the LEGO logo next to it just look wrong, to my eyes.

Not too many years ago they did have some more bulk sets aimed at clearing parts inventory, and what a fantastic deal they were. My favorite was 4679, a bulk tub containing 1000 pieces, with a box strapped to it containing another 513; the tub contained standard, basic elements of the sort found in any typical bulk brick set, while the box contained a random assortment of things - standard bricks in rare colors, odd bricks produced for one or two specific sets and no longer in production, all sorts of rare or unique elements from sets produced over the two or three years right before 4679's release. As far as I know, no two of them would have the same assortment of parts, and it could have anything - I remember somebody posting on FBTB about getting twelve pizzas (those 2x2 round tiles with the pizza prints) in one of them, while I got three of the printed 6x1x5 slope brick used as the top of the T-16 Skyhopper's main fin in one of mine. Price-wise, they were fantastic - 1513 pieces for $20, which works out to less than one and a half cents per piece, and that included lots of large and/or "special" parts. I wish I'd gotten a bunch more than the four I did.

[LEGO Historian]

I posted this story about USA Samsonite LEGO on Lugnet, and one of the Canadian posters over there asked about more information about Samsonite of Canada LEGO sales... so here is the cut/paste....

Here's the story behind Samsonite of Canada returning the LEGO license to TLG.

It was an entirely different story than what happened in the USA, where the

license was revoked.

In 1973 the Samsonite Corporation (USA and Canada) was acquired by the

multinational Beatrice Corporation... a hodgepodge of unrelated products amassed

into a large multinational firm. In 1986 the Wall Street brokerage firm of

Kolhberg Kravitz & Roberts did a leveraged buyout of Beatrice for $8.7 billion

US (largest buyout up until that time). To Wall Street Beatrice was worth more

as the sum of its' parts... rather than as a whole corporation.

So Samsonite was spun off as a separate company again (as were dozens of other

units of Beatrice), but before that happened, TLG got involved, and bought back

the Samsonite of Canada LEGO licenese from KK&R... no hostility there, just an

opportunistic business decision on the part of TLG. Samsonite became

independent, but no longer producing LEGO.

Canadian LEGO production moved to Enfield Connecticut, but LEGO Canada had

offices in Markham Ontario... possibly elsewhere later.

And of course in the last dozen years production has been moved from Enfield to

Mexico... with Enfield being another Sales Office and distribution center.

------------------

Now let me go back to the beginning of USA/Canada LEGO by Samsonite.... the

production of LEGO in both countries was licensed in 1961 to Samsonite (still

called Shwayder Brothers in the USA until 1965, but Samsonite of Canada in

Canada).

The first LEGO production here was a bi-national event. The first production

facilities of LEGO was at the Stratford Ontario Samsonite plant in 1961... with

LEGO parts produced there selling in the USA starting in 1961... and in Canada

starting in 1962. The LEGO boxes were produced at a suburban Detroit (USA)

Samsonite plant, and the LEGO Model Shop was at a Samsonite plant in Detroit.

So bricks, boxes and models were going back and forth between Detroit and

Ontario from 1961-65. In 1965 the USA subsidiary changed the name from Shwayder

Bros. (which is what it had been since its' founding in Colorado by the 4

Shwayder brothers in 1910) to Samsonite Corp.... the name of its' most popular

product. Also in 1965 Samsonite USA opened up a Loveland (suburban Denver)

Colorado plant for producing LEGO (boxes, parts and model shop) for the USA. So

1965 was the separation point for Samsonite LEGO between the 2 countries.

Besides building examples of the Empire State Building, one of the built models in the diagram should be familiar to German AFOLs... the Ulmner Münster (Ulm Cathedral)... which at 529 ft. tall (161 metres) is a model of the world's tallest church tower.

During the 1961-65 era... specialty parts, such as road signs, flags, Esso

Service parts, and other accessories were still produced in Denmark for both USA

and Canada. And the spare parts boxes of those item mentioned "MADE IN DENMARK"

on the boxes.

One of the specialty items that reverted to North America was the early LEGO

trees/bushes. In Europe these were hand painted with brown trunks and green

leaves. This practice of importing these trees was soon discontinued in

USA/Canada very early on (1962?)... in favor of only having unpainted green

trees/bushes made of green plastic. So these trees/bushes even had green trunks

and bases. And instead of 5 tree types (Oak, Birch, Fruit, Cypres and Pine)...

only unpainted Pine trees and the unpainted Evergreen bushes were sold in

USA/Canada by Samsonite. From 1961-72 these came in several different shades of

green, in several types of plastic.

In 1966, when USA and Canada Samsonite production were split between Stratford

and Loveland... the trees/bushes changed as well. The USA Samsonite

trees/bushes started having "feet" that would wedge the tree/bush "between" the

studs (in Europe the new donut hollow bottom trees/bushes fit "onto" the studs).

However, in Canada... they continued to produce flat bottom unpainted Pine Trees

and Evergreen bushes as they had since 1961/62.

Other changes between USA and Canada Samsonite parts and sets were introduced...

such as separately numbered spare parts packs, different parts, and the

introduction of USA department store exclusive sets (those in Canada were

regular store bought sets until the 1970s, but in the USA exclusive boxes and

set numbers were made for department store catalog exclusive sets).

Once the USA Samsonite license was revoked in 1973, the USA started having

different set numbers than Canada and the rest of the world until circa 1980.

For example... the London Bus set was numbered 760 in the USA and 384 in the

rest of the world. The reason that this was happening (from 1973-80) has never

been explained by TLG... but I believe it had something to do with TLG being

worried that Canadian Samsonite LEGO sets may find their way to the USA... and

the only way to counter that was to use different set numbers. This has never

been confirmed by TLG, but it makes perfect sense. Note also that a select few

sets did have the same set number in USA/Canada... such as the 190 Farm Set (not

sold elsewhere), and the 575 Coast Guard Set (sold earlier in the rest of the

world as 369).

In my LEGO DVD/download, there are at least a dozen chapters that highlight the

differences between USA and Canada Samsonite and TLG sets, and those sold

elsewhere in the world... chapters on USA/Canada Department Store Catalog sales,

USA/Canada promotional sets, USA/Canada spare parts packs 1961-65 and 1966-72,

USA/Canada basic sets, USA/Canada exclusive LEGO elements (such as waffle bottom

plates in other colors besides white), LEGO trees/bushes, USA/Canada LEGO

catalogs, idea books, and many other country specific LEGO parts and sets.

USA Samsonite LEGO parts pack as found in the 1970 USA Retailer Catalog...

Canada Samsonite LEGO parts pack as found in the 1970 Customer Catalog...

I hope this long winded reply gives an indication of why the DVD/download ended

up as 2,800 pages... there are sooooo many anomalies between LEGO sold in

different parts of the world. The UK/Ireland/Australia LEGO sets by licensee

Courtauld's chemical/textile giant (as British LEGO Ltd. of Wrexham Wales) is

another long winded story about the big puzzle that is LEGO.

These are only a very small sample of the historic USA/Canada Samsonite images.... from my DVD download...

Edited January 9, 2013 by LEGO Historian

[heymikep]

Hello, I saw this post but could not add my pictures so I started a new topic at this link, http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=80608. I am trying to find out more info on the sets I have pictured there. The sets and cars in the pictures are still sealed and have never been opened. I appreciate your help.