Excalibur 2.0: Conclusion

[Hinckley]

I'm not being mean to Bob, not intential anyway. My frustration is fully my own fault and comes from my previous experience with Mafia Games. The way it is done on Eurobricks is obviously different, not saying worse, but I think It'll will continue to frustrate myself if things continue like this. So I'm going to have a long think wether or not I have the stomach to continue playing these far inferior games. (it's a joke guys, gaaaaah)

Before I forget, thanks much for hosting Bob.

I hope you don't think I'm being mean to you in debating the issue. I can understand your frustration and really respect the way you've dealt with the situation. You've expressed your frustration in a responsible and constructive manner. Except the comparison to Yakuza, apparently. That made Bob post a shit-storm pic. I hope you continue to play EB Mafia games.

[Dannylonglegs]

Yes!!! So glad I voted for the three of you. I knew I was on the right track.

But then again, I voted for everyone else as well...so

So much for Brickdoctor's "scum and dumb" jump on CallMePie. Seems he was right after all!

Wow, If we'd played that out, the scum would have killed themselves before day 4.

[Scubacarrot]

I hope you don't think I'm being mean to you in debating the issue. I can understand your frustration and really respect the way you've dealt with the situation. You've expressed your frustration in a responsible and constructive manner. Except the comparison to Yakuza, apparently. That made Bob post a shit-storm pic. I hope you continue to play EB Mafia games.

Nah, I don't think that, and if I thought you were being mean to me, I'd just act like a dick.

[Palathadric]

Could we also see the night action results from Excalibur 1.0. I'd be interested in that too. Don't know if you still have them all though.

[Zepher]

I'm with Scuba. Mid-game changes are never fun (unless they're pre-planned, then they are fair). If the scum are doing well, they are doing well. If the town is doing well, they are doing well. You're supposed to balance your games beforehand, not during. It's a tried and true lesson.

That being said, that was pretty much my only issue with the game. Great job, Bob, I loved all the openings and endings, you've got a very nice and unique style of humor that I really appreciate!

[Hinckley]

Why was I neutral in the first place? Investigator's a townie role, I don't see the point in having one that's not actually townie.

This, really, should be shouted from the roof tops. When should a host use a third-party or neutral? If I have any criticism of Bob's hosting, it's this point here. There's no reason for an investigator to be neutral. Maybe it makes sense for the nice little "first contact" story, but whose story is that? That's a good story for a cult leader, but an investigator???? How was that helping him as a survivor? Scum loves to keep investigators alive! So, how does that help anything and why would the Town be denied an investigator?? One of the weirdest examples ever of this was Rick's voteless neutral watcher in Werewolf. If he hadn't teamed up with the Town, what the megabluck was he supposed to do? Watch things? Neutrals should have a separate & attainable win condition.

I keep forgetting to thank Bob for my favorite role ever. I think I was the first host to use a vengeful spirit on EB and it was Florence in Baritones I. I did it as a whim when I was writing roles and she turned over three Scum in as many days. This time I got to be it! Sorry I almost ruined it by talking too much. I was really worried that I had broken the role. That was a good conversation we had and I think you reached a very fair conclusion. It's a hard task to keep me mute, so sorry the role fell to me. And sorry if I've drawn you un-necessary criticism. Maybe I shouldn't have been allowed onto the writeboard, but the other stuff was me just spazzing and doing whatever I felt without clarifying what I would be doing going back in. My fault, really. I'm glad we worked out a way for me to continue, because that was the most fun way ever to leave a Mafia game: spontaneously combusting after uncovering a covert Scum spy! That's totally my Christmas for the year. Especially since ScumbaRadish was being such a dick. Bob, I'd play one of your games any time, knowing full well that it'd be a crazy little ride. Thanks for the more-than-entertaining ride!!

[CMP]

Neutrals should have a separate & attainable win condition.

In Bob's defense, he did add another one in 2.0. I either had to survive or have 6 successful investigations. Still a very off role, though.

[Scubacarrot]

spontaneously combusting after uncovering a covert Scum spy! That's totally my Christmas for the year. Especially since ScumbaRadish was being such a dick.

I'd like to think myself as a badass double agent with sunglasses. Spy is such a negative word.

[Hinckley]

In Bob's defense, he did add another one in 2.0. I either had to survive or have 6 successful investigations. Still a very off role, though.

But why? Why? How does that win condition affect the rest of the game? Use neutrals responsibly...

[Rufus]

You're supposed to balance your games beforehand, not during. It's a tried and true lesson.

I agree with this, but on the other hand it is impossible to predict what will happen. The host might feel the game concept is balanced, then randomly draw a scum team that is super-strong or full of noobs. The temptation then is to throw the players back into the pot and draw again, but then it isn't random. Alternatively, the host might be tempted to tweak the teams' powers to match the drawn players, but that has the drawback of upsetting the balance of the original concept, and people will then look at that tweaked concept and complain.

Moreover, you cannot predict the players interactions in game. As I said after IMHOTEP, you could play this or any game again with the same players and the same roles and get a completely different outcome. Some games end up looking completely unbalanced in retrospect (both Bloodbricks towards scum; Werewolf and perhaps IMHOTEP towards towards town, as examples) but most likely its just a result of the way people played during the game. If Bob felt the need to tweak the balance in-game to keep a fair balance as it progressed, then that's his prerogative; if he had done nothing then I'm sure just as many (if not more) people would be screaming 'unfair' anyway, albeit for different reasons.

I had fun in this game. Fun that came from playing, not winning; and I'd have had just as much fun if town had lost.

[AwesomeStar]

I agree with this, but on the other hand it is impossible to predict what will happen. The host might feel the game concept is balanced, then randomly draw a scum team that is super-strong or full of noobs.

Well you say that but when 2.0 started we evaluated our options in the scumboard and noted with some terror that the town consisted of a large portion of extremely seasoned mafia players. However, you're right about games being impossible to predict; specifically, just how dumb you guys would be for most of the game!

[Hinckley]

If Bob felt the need to tweak the balance in-game to keep a fair balance as it progressed, then that's his prerogative;

This, ^ true.

Zepher, I cited many times the fact that I gave you an extra invention in Steampunk since I noticed the Town were at a disadvantage (my fault for making a role that could easily convert itself to Scum host lesson learned there ). Granted, you didn't use the freaking invention anyway, but I saw it was needed and added it. Nobody pooped their diapers about that. Or the fact that Inky was given a sword after we killed you on the first day in Werewolf. Tweaking for balance happens. I can go on citing examples. This isn't unheard of. I added a three-shot day killer in the first Baritones. I would never do that again but it has happened.

[Darkdragon]

Granted, you didn't use the freaking invention anyway, but I saw it was needed and added it. Nobody pooped their diapers about that.

Nobody would, seeing as how he didn't use it.

[Rufus]

I agree with this, but on the other hand it is impossible to predict what will happen. The host might feel the game concept is balanced, then randomly draw a scum team that is super-strong or full of noobs.

Well you say that but when 2.0 started we evaluated our options in the scumboard and noted with some terror that the town consisted of a large portion of extremely seasoned mafia players. However, you're right about games being impossible to predict; specifically, just how dumb you guys would be for most of the game!

I wasn't referring to this game, just theorising in general. My point was about how the host might react to the draw. Anyway, you weren't all noobs: you had a seasoned scummo in Foog, and a relatively experienced and gutsy Scumba. And you guys played well. Plus putting several strong egos players on the town side doesn't necessarily make for a strong team.

[Hinckley]

Anyway, you weren't all noobs: you had a seasoned scummo in Foog, and a relatively experienced and gutsy Scumba. And you guys played well.

True. It was an awesome and formidable Scum team.

Plus putting several strong egos players on the town side doesn't necessarily make for a strong team.

Too true!

[CMP]

True. It was an awesome and formidable Scum team.

Have to agree there, it was a really effective team, and shows that you don't need a roster full of mafia veterans to have a good scum team. If the stump hadn't been there, I think they had a real shot at winning it.

[Scubacarrot]

I think we won the moral victory.

[Hinckley]

I think we won the moral victory.

ScumbaRadish! Nom nom nom

[Darkdragon]

Have to agree there, it was a really effective team, and shows that you don't need a roster full of mafia veterans to have a good scum team. If the stump hadn't been there, I think they had a real shot at winning it.

We can't blame it all on Stumpy. That was a turning point for town, but in reality the town were still making mistakes after that. Look how long the last 3 scum lasted. I fully beleive that if WBD hadn't used that magic day kill on Foog, scum would have won the game. Stumpy started it, but that kill finished it. The kill+lynch that day decimated the scum to the point that even if town had lynched Draggy, they would have ended up winning the next day because swils was the only other person on their list.

[Hinckley]

We can't blame it all on Stumpy.

Why blame lovable Stumpy at all? I thought I explained away all you whining concerns on the dead writeboard?

[Darkdragon]

Why blame lovable Stumpy at all? I thought I explained away all you whining concerns on the dead writeboard?

You did explain very well. I also told you some of my reservations and reasons for still giving Stumpy some blame, which you didn't address yet to me.

[Scubacarrot]

Why blame lovable Stumpy at all? I thought I explained away all you whining concerns on the dead writeboard?

You know, it's still bullshit.

[Zepher]

I agree it's up to Bob if he wants to balance his own game mid-way through. It is up to each and every host. I just personally disagree with it.

[Scubacarrot]

Imagine Hal Douglas or Don LaFontaine's voice...

In a world... where Treestumps... Have all the power... there is one Man.... that stands... against the world... of Treestumps...

This should be a thing.

[Hinckley]

You did explain very well. I also told you some of my reservations and reasons for still giving Stumpy some blame, which you didn't address yet to me.

Oh, I thought I did. I mostly agreed with you. Let's avoid me having to re-type it all and I'll just quote the writeboard:

This quote isn't necessary. I just think I'm funny.

I was only in there for one day until ScumbaRadish pissed his diapers about having me in there. Scared of a little tree stump. What a pussy.

Scumba says that Bob came up with the stump on a whim in the writeboard:

I am totally serious about that. I wouldn’t want the players to feel that their time wasn’t well spent, even if it is a game. I felt like I had wasted so much time when Infection and Bloodbrick finished and it turned of I was way off the mark on who was Scum. I didn’t play for a long time after Infection because I felt so much of my time had been wasted.

That being said, I don’t know what you’re referring to when you say Bob said “Can I bring you back as a tree stump?” I chose to be the tree stump. I know we talked about it on here, but I’m too lazy to find it. Can you point out what you’re referring to?

I figure I were a moderator and a kid asked for a reference, I'd tell him to look it up so I do:

Ctrl – F: find “tree stump”

There, now I see it. This: Bob said…“Hinck, can I send you back in as a tree stump?” etc…

was Bob finalizing my choice. I was supposed to go back in on Day Four and be a mute inanimate object of my choosing. I chose either the tree stump or a hairbrush. Bob didn’t have a hairbrush. I got sent back in and allowed to talk to liven up the day thread. I almost ruined it all by talking too much. Bob told me I had the one-shot on Day Four.

This is all after Captain John Paul was killed, so we keep talking about the "success" of his sting, so the conversation is all jumbled.

@ Scumba: Solely the fact that he is the investigator. That’s why I predict fhomess will kill him.

@ Shadows: I think they’re upset about it because I talked so much here and in the game. I was supposed to be mute and inanimate. Not the best role for me. Bob only let me talk to liven up the day thread. If I had just been an inanimate bar of soap ( I really wanted to be a new friends element… ) that finally piped up with an investigation, I think it would’ve seemed more … fair … to them, I guess? I don’t know. I almost totally ruined it because I didn’t understand I would have a purpose and can’t help but talk to people.

Showing off my love for ScumbaRadish:

@ Scuba, I respect the way you have bitched. I think you’re a real good sport. Your ego is nowhere near as bloated as Shadows when he started proving he was a formidable player. Man, he was intolerable. I like you.

After trying to walk in the Scum's shoes for a moment:

Trying to see it from the Scum perspective, I can see now how my role seemed tacked on. That’s mostly my fault. Bob’s only mistake there is that he tried to liven up the day thread by allowing me back in early and allowing me to talk_. When I died I was told I’d be back on Day Four as an inanimate object. I thought it was a joke like I do to Shadows in my games. Bob let me back in on Day Three because the day thread was boring or because I had bitched about it being boring so many times. Then, on the morning of Day Four I got the one-shot. I assume this was the plan all along since you see the investigator touch me before he dies and in the morning, I’m in the active players list. Once I realized there was an action involved, I tell Bob that I knew two allegiances: Foog and darkdragon. Bob and I had a long talk about how to handle it. I put my host-hat on and we debate the pros and cons. He was really adamant that it be treated fairly and we talked at length about not doing it at all. In the end, he decided to let me do it as long as I didn’t investigate Foog or darkdragon. Then I did my investigation and got my result. Then I try to clarify again that it’s what he wants and that I didn’t ruin anything and I must’ve annoyed him because he posts in the day thread “Why did you people have to kill Ensign Falcon?”. I asked if he wanted me to contact Foog and darkdragon first, before revealing my role and he finally told me to just megablocking get on with it. Shortly after that I revealed my investigation and exploded but you all know that part.

I’m sure Bob will explain all in the end, but that’s the scoop from my perspective.

darkdragon says:

@Hinckley My biggest problem with Stumpy is that you were allowed into the dead writeboard between the two characters.

I reply:

@ darkdragon, good point. I don’t think I really learned anything from being on the writeboard. I’ll look back to see what had been discussed. But nothing from here informed my choice for investigation. It may seem that way to you, in retrospect, but my head was stuck in the PMs and the threads.

I don’t think Bob realized how much I was getting from PM conversations I had started. Scuba throwing a hissy fit and refusing to show Tammo the CallMePie PMs was a warning bell. Insisting on killing an investigator was another one. That could be seen as … a bit of a gray area … I suppose … Sorry.

Then, after some more discussion:

Yikes. Looking back at what happened before I stumped, I admit, it looks a little … off. But, and I know this is hard to perceive from your perspective, none of that informed my investigation decision. I didn’t comb back through the writeboard for clues. I looked at the day threads and the PMs. When you’re on the dead writeboard and still in the dark about who the Scum are each post kind of exists in a vacuum. The worst post up there is where Bob tells us that my list only has one Scum in it. You may think that has cleared the other four people on my list. But no, not for me. I kept re-guessing those same people. Two of them were dead by the time I did my investigation and I was still guessing CJP and dragonator after that. And honestly, Bob sometimes doesn’t fully read things or explain things very well. You have to really clarify with him, which is probably why I drove him nuts clarifying my role. So, I never even fully believed anything Bob was saying to us because I thought there was a huge chance he was either megablocking with us, being sarcastic, or not fully reading what we had said. He does that a lot in Mafia, doesn’t read things.

Anyway, I can see why it seems that way and I think you have a bit of Scum-tunnel-vision. I can assure you none of this informed my decision. I kind of had tunnel vision on Scuba, because of my “verify” mantra and he was starting to set off more and more alarm bells. I was still shocked when I got the result, because he was doing a real good job. But there were too many questions. Like why he insisted on killing the investigator, why his role seemed so powerful and unverifiable. Being so adamant about CJP being the reason KOTZ died, insisting Masked was Pie’s neutral partner (which all happened by PM ) I really was focused on that and this board was just buzzing noise in the background.

Really, you should be more annoyed with me than Bob. For the intended mute inanimate vengeful spirit, I really muscled my way out and about, toeing lines. My personality doesn’t fit well into inanimate and mute. Bob did a commendable job picking up the pieces of the role I shattered. How many times can I blush as I re-live this?

Also, in Bob’s defense, considering how much we discussed if it was fair for me to continue with the one-shot action since I knew about Foog and dd, if too much had been revealed on the writeboard, I’m confident Bob would’ve called off the one-shot.

darkdragon, I skimmed real quick but don't see any more questions for me regarding the Stumpy Stumpems role. What were you still waiting for from me?