Lego Otaku Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 Nice. Does the Norwegian alphabet not have Q or X? I didn't see it in the picture. Quote
LEGO Historian Posted October 16, 2013 Author Posted October 16, 2013 Nice. Does the Norwegian alphabet not have Q or X? I didn't see it in the picture. Hehehe.... I had noticed that too... but the blue bricks did have the "X"... but not the "Q". Interesting! But I also had counted the number of bricks and that total is 86. This is way more than should be in a parts pack. The Nov. 1957 Danish announcement mentions 52 bricks... and the 1958 catalogs (of all countries) mentions only 50. So then I thought that this pack of red bricks was a double pack mixed into 1 box. But there would be way more than just the Q and X missing from a duplicate pack (many bricks are only here once)... so this may have been an original box... with some serious quality control issues (overcounting!!). Quote
LEGO Historian Posted November 12, 2013 Author Posted November 12, 2013 (edited) Well with all those LEGO Showrooms in the 307/1307 variations (LEGO SALG, LEGO VERKAUF, LEGO MYYNTI, LEGO DEALER, etc)... my friend Jeroen in the Netherlands came up with an updated (50 years later) VW Showroom.... There's probably about 4000+ EUROs ($5000) worth of 1:87 LEGO vehicles shown here... with one very special VW Bus.... the green Kastner & Öhler VW Bus (#258).... a very very rare promotional bus made for the largest department store in Graz, Austria's 2nd largest city. This bus was made in the early to mid 1960s, and is very highly collectible on the secondary market by LEGO 1:87 cast car collectors... going for over 1200 EUROs.... This is one of about a dozen very rare European specific labeled LEGO VW Vans and Buses... that go from 300-1500 EUROs. Kastner & Öhler is not only Graz Austria's largest department store... but it is a very elegant and unique building. Here is a quick video on the store... and if you watch closely... you will see a box of LEGO in this video.... http://www.behance.n...-Ohler/11354551 I also love the British LEGO Ltd. version of LEGO 1962-72 Street Lights. From 1962-65 they were spray painted silver, as seen in these examples. From 1966-72 they were just made of gray plastic. The rest of the world had the silver spray painted lattice type mast (had that "Eiffel Tower" look)... and were only produced until 1967. LEGO 1:87 cars are discussed in my largest (65 pages) chapter on the very valuable and collectible car/truck 1:87 Town Plan series of vehicles in my Unofficial LEGO Sets/Parts Collectors Guide on DVD/download.... but it's cars like this promotional one that is discussed in my chapter on Promotional LEGO sets, and others are mentioned in my chapter on Prototype Sets/Parts. Edited November 12, 2013 by LEGO Historian Quote
LEGO Historian Posted November 13, 2013 Author Posted November 13, 2013 (edited) Another one of my friend Jeroen's 1:87 vehicle diarama's that he's produced... this one is on a 1960s Town Plan board (#200) with instead of VW vehicles... here we have a pair of 1:87 Mercedes cars. One is a Mercedes 220S, and the other is a Mercedes 190SL convertible... standing in front of a "Theater" made using classic LEGO windows and doors, and a 1950s style printed brick (in script).... One of the interesting thing in this image is that it shows the roof bricks with different textures. During the 1970s and early 1980s the sloped roof texture was much coarser than it was in the 1960s and today. Also, these are 1955-60 style LEGO trees/bushes. These proved to be too fragile for the heavy playwear of LEGO children, and in 1960 they were remodeled to a sturdier thicker design. The LEGO Elm tree on the left was especially fragile, and in 1960 it was replaced by a sturdier Oak tree. However one piece of irony is that photographic images of these trees/bushes can be found in LEGO ideas books well into the 1960s... and the LEGO artwork showing the trees can be found in LEGO catalogs as late as 1975. TLG was very peculiar in such regards... reusing old design artwork and images well beyond their actual use. It's one of the things that make LEGO catalogs of the 1955-75 era so confusing or misleading. More images for my LEGO DVD download updated version.... Edited November 13, 2013 by LEGO Historian Quote
LEGO Historian Posted November 14, 2013 Author Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) Not all LEGO discoveries are ancient (well relative to my age... ).... just today came across ANOTHER newer new discovery... again from Norway!! It seems that back in 1987 there was a boardgame that seemed to be an "Australia Only" game with a unique baseplate... http://www.bricklink...em.asp?S=1575-2 Well my friend Lothar from Germany (my friend who loves digging around Norway LEGO)... just found this from Norway... this same game... but without the basic set parts... and only the box for the game and parts... AND..... no set number?? My guess would be that this was intended as a test run in Norway to see if this would be popular.... it likely wasn't popular... and TLG had leftover unique baseplates (or the mold)... so they shipped the extras to British LEGO Ltd. (Wrexham Wales) who sent them packing to Australia as bonus parts in an Australian 1575 Basic Set. I just got this today.... hot off the press!!! And ready for my next DVD download version that keeps getting delayed with wonderful new additions like this!! ********************************************************************************* Update.... OK... now it looks like it may not be Norwegian after all... just purchased from Norway. The box top has this in small letters.... " 146780-DK/S/SF ". This designates the countries that this was sold in as.... Denmark, Sweden and Finland. Looking at the box top picture, it does indeed appear to match those countries (note the Finnish language is very much different from all other European languages). The instructions sheet may have been local to the country sold (3 different sheets). So this was produced for part of the Scandinavian market, and likely soon retired.... with leftovers ending up in Australia. Edited November 14, 2013 by LEGO Historian Quote
Roger_Smith Posted November 15, 2013 Posted November 15, 2013 Hey Gary, first off, I (again) want to thank you for your wonderful and insightful posts dipping into Lego's past on here. I really like reading stuff like that, and I'll surely pick up your DVD someday soon (propably after Christmas :D) Now, I have had a question for a long time that I feel you may be able to answer (and if you can't then propably nobody can), and this pic just made it pop into my mind again: In it, we see (apart from the precious VW-bus) two bricks with curved slopes on top of the building. When I was a kid (roughly 20-25 years ago), pretty much all the lego I had was square or in geometrical shapes with flat surfaces (like 45° degree slopes, the various old space panels and castle walls etc.). The only exception at the time were the 2x2 round bricks and plates, the 2x2 and 4x4 cones and - obviously - the various variations of dishes. But I can't remember ever seeing a brick with a curved slope, or a curved brick, or a large plate with a curved corner in any of the then current sets. Some curved bricks started appearing towards the end of my childhood Lego years towards 94/95, but before that, all the current lego I knew had flat surfaces. So my question is, was I just really, really unlucky in the choice of sets I got, or did the curved pieces really fall into disuse up until the mid-nineties? And if they did, was there any specific reason for it (maybe moulding difficulties or something like that)? It just seems odd to me that in a lot of these pics of really old Lego there is an abundance of curved bricks and plates with curved corners, but in my (pretty large) collection of bricks stemming mostly from the 70ies and 80ies (I was lucky to get a large box of hand-me-down Lego), the only curved examples I had were some red and white maccaroni bricks and an old plate with waffle bottom, all of which looked ancient even in the early 90ies when I got them. Looking forward to your reply :) Quote
LEGO Historian Posted November 15, 2013 Author Posted November 15, 2013 Thanks for asking Roger... although the scene above uses mostly 1960s parts, those 2 green curved bricks on the roof are modern elements. My friend Jeroen... when he put thiis grouping together... he wanted green accents on the building to match the green rare VW Bus. The very first green LEGO bricks were the 10x20 baseplates which came out in 1953. Green bricks were produced for a brief time in the old slotted brick style, and the hollow bottom style in Denmark, Norway, Sweden from 1949-58, and then were discontinued for about 2 decades. The first LEGO plates in green were the USA/Canada Samsonite spare parts packs with small plates (518, 519, 520, 521). Ironically, while these parts packs were sold in all countries... in Europe/Australia they only came in red, white, blue, yellow, black, clear or gray starting in 1963. But in USA/Canada (Samsonite LEGO) they didn't have blue or yellow small plates packs... but did have green ones. So old small plates with "Pat. Pend." made of Cellulose Acetate were found in USA/Canada in the 1960s. As to curved parts... the 4x8 right and left curved plates (made only with waffle bottoms in USA/Canada, but with either waffle bottom (earlier) or circle bottom (later) elsewhere... were sold from 1955 until 1969, and then discontinued. Besides the macaroni bricks (from 1955-57 there were 4 varieties)... the 4x8 right and left curved waffle plates, the 4x4 round(ed) turntables and the 1970s 4x4 cone bricks... most curved LEGO parts came in the 1980s and later. Here is a LEGO Idea Book list showing the parts that were available from 1960-61 (black bricks came out in 1962, along with LEGO wheels, and small plates in late 1962).... Quote
Roger_Smith Posted November 15, 2013 Posted November 15, 2013 Wow, that was quick :) Thanks a lot for the insight! And note to myself: Not all bricks on pics with old Lego necessarily are old Lego :D Quote
LEGO Historian Posted November 15, 2013 Author Posted November 15, 2013 Roger no, not all old is just old! Here's what I put together a few years ago... what I call the "Super Town Plan" layout... with modern bricks... old windows/doors (even a Minitalia window on the 2nd floor of the red building).... some 1950s and 1960s trees and Town Plan accessories and 1:87 cars/trucks, some more recent low and steep sloped bricks, and even modern railing pieces, decorated slopes, radar dishes and rounded plates.... a mix of 1955-95 parts... Quote
LEGO Historian Posted November 16, 2013 Author Posted November 16, 2013 (edited) Well more updates on that 1575 Basic Set with game included.... It seems that the 1575 set had the game box within a bigger 1575 box... as one owner of the Australian set has told me. This now makes a lot more sense. So the box with the game in it is only the inner box, and therefore has no set number on it... only the outer box has the 1575 on it. So it appears that the 1575 set was sold in Denmark, Sweden, Finnland and Australia. Fine so far... but then after checking the Brickset database (Peeron, Bricklink and Lugnet don't say or show too much... the Brickset database shows a closeup of the outer box.... Sooooo... this (from 1000steine) image shows a 1575 box in English, French and Spanish... which would be perfect for North America... but this box is seen in Bricklink (in small image) from the person who owns this set... Jan K. , who said that he got the set from Australia (plus his image shows that the above image only shows 2/3 of the box top.... not the window portion of the lower 1/3 of the box. http://www.bricklink...em.asp?S=1575-2 It would seem odd to see this box as an Australian box with English/French and Spanish writing on it, but the Bricklink box from Jan K. is an Australian box... and it does indeed have 3 languages on the box (English, French and Spanish).... strange though.... Edited November 17, 2013 by LEGO Historian Quote
LEGO Historian Posted November 19, 2013 Author Posted November 19, 2013 (edited) Well, just got another previously unknown LEGO set box... it seems that the Danish-Swedish-Norwegian 1306 VW Repair Set came in not 2... but 3 box top languages. Apparently Denmark came with VW SERVICE, Sweden with VW GARAGE... and now Norway with VW GARASJE on the box top.... Edited November 19, 2013 by LEGO Historian Quote
LEGO Historian Posted December 7, 2013 Author Posted December 7, 2013 (edited) Well I haven't posted in a while, because I am working on a new LEGO Collectors Guide... this one for the 1:43 scale LEGO Chevrolet Trucks and Wagons. These were produced from 1952-57, and were sold only in Denmark and Norway. Because LEGO building sets were built to 1:87 scale (1/2 of the 1:43) Bedford trucks and VW cars... the 1:43 trucks were not considered part of the LEGO System of Play, so these will not be part of my Unofficial LEGO Sets/Parts Collectors Guide, but will be in a separate document. In doing my research of these very rare and pricey 1:43 trucks... I came across a pair of these from Iceland, which started the first LEGO sales in 1955..... What is very interesting about the Icelandic language is that it is a very ancient language that is related to Danish and Norwegian. The Icelandic alphabet has 32 letters, some of the extra ones are vowels with accents. Shown above is the letter "D" with a line thru it, another Icelandic letter (along with the regular "D"). Most interesting among these printed Icelandic Chevrolet trucks is the letter "Z" in one of them. Since this truck was produced in the 1950s... the letter "Z" has been retired from the Icelandic alphabet! The 1:43 Chevrolet Trucks are today very highly collectible, mainly by European collectors. Regular Danish or Norwegian 1:43 trucks sell for hundreds of Euros each. Because Iceland has such a small population (less than 200K in the 1950s), these 2 very rare trucks would likely command over 1000 Euros each at auction! Edited December 7, 2013 by LEGO Historian Quote
LEGO Historian Posted January 23, 2014 Author Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) For those of you that have my Unofficial LEGO Sets/Parts Collectors Guide... in Chapter 17 - Prototype LEGO Sets/Parts, there is this beauty.... the 1237 1/2 Esso Service Station set... Well the TLG Archives in Billund have no information on this 1237 set, and I thought that it was never produced. But it was found in the 1956 LEGO catalogs of both Sweden and Norway. And since there have been some sets in those countries that have still not been found, but have been seen in old LEGO b/w photographs... I'm having 2nd thoughts on this 1237 set. The reason I thought it was never produced, is because the 1310 Esso Service Station (similar to the 310) was introduced also in 1956. So I thought a 1/2 service station was likely never produced. The set next door in the image, the 1236 has been found a few times in both Sweden and Norway.... but since these sets were introduced to both countries likely from Norway... it's still possible that the 1237 may actually exist out there in both countries... in small quantities.... but just not found yet. Also when you put a 1236 and a 1236 together (buildings touching)... you get a 1310/310 Esso Service Station. Here is a 1236 box for Sweden... the 1237 would looke very similar (based on the previous image, from a catalog).... A 1237 set that came on the market, would likely fetch in the 2000-3000 Euros figure. As would some of the other sets shown in my LEGO DVD/download prototype chapter.... Edited January 23, 2014 by LEGO Historian Quote
WoutR Posted July 17, 2014 Posted July 17, 2014 Hi Gary, (Dear Historian,) ;) I am trying to find out a bit more about the PRIMA sets. In your topic about the unknown LEGO sets (http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=77152) you write that they were made by NORSKE LEGO A/S of Oslo Norway. I have a few questions about that. - Why do you think these sets were made in Norway, and not in Sweden (maybe using the old GEAS molds) - Did Svein Strømberg & Co. / NORSKE LEGO ever make Bakelite parts? - Do the colors of the PRIMA bricks match the colors of the GEAS sets exactly (excluding blue, which does not seem to exist in PRIMA), or are there notable differences? I hope you can help me find some answers :) Quote
LEGO Historian Posted July 18, 2014 Author Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) WoutR.... very observant.... But since that was published, I had done a lot of other research and yes.... PRIMA was indeed made by Geas Konstharts of Gislaved Sweden. My next update (free to current owners) of Chapter 2 of my LEGO Collectors Guide (Chapter on Automatic Binding Bricks and PRIMA).... will reflect that yes the later (1952-55) PRIMA product was produced by the GEAS company. Here was the "smoking gun".... the same virtually exact printing (and printer company from Sweden mentioned at the bottom of the page).... shows that the same company produced both products.... 1950-52 GEAS.... 1952-55 PRIMA.... Both brochures were also produced by the same Swedish printing company in Varnamö, a town not too far from Gislaved... home base for Geas!! More info on this coming.... Edited July 18, 2014 by LEGO Historian Quote
LEGO Historian Posted July 18, 2014 Author Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) OK... now for some more answers.... In researching the pieces to the puzzle about old LEGO... there are always a few false clues that are given to me... That was the case with PRIMA. Geas gives us a company name and town name in their catalogs... but PRIMA is totally silent. So I received a few images that really threw me for a loop! Here is one set... a 1957 700 wooden box set (with contents) from Sweden. This set should only contain LEGO parts... but it also contains PRIMA parts, which don't have LEGO on the studs. This was one of the things that made me think that PRIMA was produced in Norway... since A/S NORSKE LEGIO produced real LEGO parts for the Swedish market from 1955-61. And the original owner of this set became indignant when questioned about whether or not these parts were original. Well in retrospect, a genuine 700 (with contents) set contains only about 500-550 parts... not the nearly 1000 parts in this set. So these PRIMA parts may have been added to this LEGO set back in 1957 (when the original owner was a child)... but now I do believe that they are not original to this set. Real LEGO sets in Sweden were put together in Lerum Sweden (with parts from Norway and Denmark), near Göteburg, quite some distance from Gislaved, where the PRIMA sets were produced. So I do not believe that these sets had any natural connection between them. And here is a PRIMA set... which has real LEGO bricks and a 1955 Swedish LEGO catalog in it. Again, I thought that Norway must have had some input into this set... until later, when I came across another set that had the same identical glass water spots on the box top. It seems that this box shown here is a later reproduction... as is the 1955 Swedish catalog... So the originality of the bricks definitely fell into question. So this confirmed that PRIMA and LEGO Norway/Sweden had no relationship with each other... but based on my earlier catalog small print... PRIMA and GEAS did have a "smoking gun" connection.... However.... all that said... there had to be some continuing interaction between Geas and TLG Billund. And here is why... the later (circa 1954) PRIMA catalog showed these PRIMA parts that were introduced around the same time by TLG Billund... specialty LEGO parts. These parts molds were likely designed by TLG, and likely sent (without LEGO in the molds) to Geas for introduction of new PRIMA parts.... What is so exasperating about all of this is that there are no known records between any relationship between Geas and TLG Billund. Here are PRIMA macaroni bricks in 1/2 and 1/4 circle size... these were never produced in either green or yellow by TLG... but these bricks without LEGO on the studs were PRIMA bricks. Here are some Prima parts.... with the telltale waffle bottom square 4x8 plates in green and yellow... and also the half circle macaroni bricks in green. And one last thing.... the first Geas sets had 5 colors of parts... later reduced to 4 colors (no longer blue). Also these sets were likely made of Bakelite early on... and possibly later switched to Polystyrene... which likely continued production when the Geas sets switched to PRIMA.... Edited July 18, 2014 by LEGO Historian Quote
WoutR Posted July 18, 2014 Posted July 18, 2014 Thank you for your quick and very informative reply! In the mean time, I noticed the similarities between the boxes of the PRIMA set and the red 1953-54 Norwegian (A/S Norske LEGO) box design (700/2 set) you posted earlier. Do you think the yellow box is a fictional design based on the red box, or is it a reproduction of a real set? From top to bottom.... box designs for 700/1 (larger) , 700/2 (large) and 700/3 (medium) first LEGO sets.... 1) 1949-51 Danish and 1950-51 Swedish (Geas) box design (700/3 set). 2) 1951-52 Danish (lettering is different) box design (700/3 set). 3) 1952-53 Danish (word "LEGO" added) box design (700/1 set). 4) 1953-54 Norwegian (A/S Norske LEGO) box design (700/2 set). My next update (free to current owners) of Chapter 2 of my LEGO Collectors Guide (Chapter on Automatic Binding Bricks and PRIMA).... will reflect that yes the later (1952-55) PRIMA product was produced by the GEAS company. I am trying to list the known versions of the slotted bricks. So far I have found 12 or 13 versions (PRIMA and GEAS were listed as two entries, I have no entry yet for the Norwegian, Finnish and Icelandic bricks because I do not know anything about them). Quote
mrfuture Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) This was fun to read about LEGO early days in Scandinavia. You may have found the answer to If we in Norway have X and Q. We have, but they are rarely in use. More use today than back then. Do you know how long the windows and doors from 1955-56 was in use. I have a few of those from my childhood, but I was born in 68. They are a bit different. There are "fingers" that goes between the studs in the bottom. They could be from my father but I do not know if he had any LEGO. May be he was to old when it came. Edited July 20, 2014 by mrfuture Quote
LEGO Historian Posted July 22, 2014 Author Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) Hey WoutR.... the similarities between the PRIMA set and that red box set (and some discussions with an old time collector) is what set me off on the wrong tangent about the yellow AND red boxes originating from Norway. As it later turned out... the yellow (PRIMA) boxes were produced by Geas of Sweden, and the fact that none of my Norwegian collector friends were able to find any red boxes... that made me re-think the whole Norwegian introduction of LEGO sets. That previous post was from 2012... and since then a collector found this set.... This is a Danish ABB set. And when I saw the image with the brochure.... it immediately told me that this was a very early (1949-50) 700/1 or 700/2 Danish ABB set. The red cardboard box that I had earlier thought was a 1953 era Norwegian box, was likely an earlier (1949-50) Danish 700/3 ABB set box.... that size being smaller than the larger 700/1 or 700/2 set. Sooooo..... It looks like the first Norwegian sets of November 1953 (when sales and production started in Oslo Norway).... were of this box type.... the 1953-55 LEGO Mursten boxes.... So, the next iteration of Chapter 2 of my Unofficial LEGO Sets/Parts Collectors Guide.... will contain quite a few corrections.... but at least I now have all the info going all the way back to 1949... including images of boxes and instructions! Edited July 22, 2014 by LEGO Historian Quote
LEGO Historian Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 WoutR.... here are some Norwegian Automatic Binding Bricks windows.... (to be in my next collectors guide update).... Quote
mrfuture Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 I try again. Do you know how long the windows and doors from 1955-56 was in use. or simular design? I have a few of those from my childhood, but I was born in 68. They are a bit different. There are "fingers" that goes between the studs in the bottom. They looks simular to those you have in 1955-56.I do not have the Set Part collection. They could be from my father but I do not know if he had any LEGO. May be he was to old when it came. Quote
WoutR Posted August 2, 2014 Posted August 2, 2014 I am no specialist, but I'll try to answer your question. The first windows were flat pieces that fitted inside the slots of the old slotted bricks (see image above). Later windows were made with "wings" that fitted into the slots. http://www.bricklink.com/catalogList.asp?pg=1&catString=423&sortBy=Y&sortAsc=A&catType=P Around 1954 those windows were replaced by the windows with the fingers that fit between the studs. I think they were made in different versions until the late 1960s or early 1970s. http://www.bricklink.com/catalogList.asp?pg=1&catString=113&sortBy=Y&sortAsc=A&catType=P Quote
DPrime Posted August 2, 2014 Posted August 2, 2014 Hmm, I had a bunch of those windows... Wonder where they came from? I was born in '77... Quote
WoutR Posted August 8, 2014 Posted August 8, 2014 Gary, do you think this set might be Norwegian in origin? http://www.historia.com.pt/legos/Pt2/txt/ABBal/RB03.htm I have a theory that the "target bricks" are Norwegian in origin, but such theories are difficult to confirm http://www.historia.com.pt/legos/Textos/bricks/2X4_Targetbrick.htm Quote
LEGO Historian Posted August 14, 2014 Author Posted August 14, 2014 WoutR, I am LEGO friends with all the folks mentioned in your links. So I am familiar with these bricks. I won't even venture to guess as to the origins of these bricks... except that yes they are indeed LEGO or LEGO related. What makes coming to a concrete conclusion so difficult is the fact that one German LEGO collector acquaintance has been buying up old sets from Denmark, Norway and even Sweden. And unfortunately he has been mucking up the clues as to the origins of these bricks, by filling authentic Automatic Binding Bricks boxes with parts from other sources. So I can't make sense of all of this with him tampering with the evidence by filling some Danish ABB sets with Norwegian or Swedish contents... as well as Danish. Here is a German language cheat sheet (in my next collectors guide update), that shows many variations of the slotted bricks, as well as 2 clones... Quote
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