Can we write the unwritten rules?

[jorgeopesi]

I think we are in a Lego forum but I see very often not Lego pieces in MOCs, I would like to know which are the unwritten Lego rules for consider a MOC as a real Lego MOC. Everyone will have their opinion and I would like to reach an agreement. For me if there is only one non-Lego or altered piece there isn´t a Lego MOC, it is a non-Lego model more, good or bad but non-Lego. Of course I have my exceptions, for me customize parts without physically alter, use any type of rope or rubber is allowed. What you think?, what are your rules?.

[rumpletump]

I do not like to use any parts that are not official Lego parts.. So I guess my opinion on what should be classed as a Legitimate MOC would have to be something along those lines

[dandexter]

In my opinion its not a true Lego MOC if anything other then official Lego parts are used, or parts are modified. I believe part of Lego is doing the best you can with the set pieces provided. Other was it removes some of the challenge of Lego if you can use anything you want.

[Paul Boratko]

I am not into Frankensteining parts, but here is something to think about... What about cutting certain parts to fit...? For example this part

Now the reason why I bring up this part is because I remember when my wife built the 8272 snowmobile set, she told me that she had to CUT a tube in half... I said "No way" and she showed me the instruction book prompting the builder to cut the tube in half... So that would lead me to believe that cutting those tubes to fit your needs is perfectly fine...

So if you cut a tube, does it make you a non-purist or purist..?

I've been to many Lego shows and people talk about being 100% purists, but I've seen them use parts in ways that are very questionable and doesn't seem to be very "Pure"

[RohanBeckett]

I have no problems with some MOC's with modifed, or a small amount of non-lego parts..

However I've seen some people who do (and often, quite angrily so!!)

I think the easiest way would be to have a simple name for each style

MOC-Pure

MOC-ModifiedParts

MOC-inclNonLego

I'm sure someone can think of 3 better names.. handy when referring to your own, or someone elses creation

and if it's flagged as 'inclNonLego', then you'd have no reason to 'complain' about it!

RB

[Lipko]

I am not into Frankensteining parts, but here is something to think about... What about cutting certain parts to fit...? For example this part

Now the reason why I bring up this part is because I remember when my wife built the 8272 snowmobile set, she told me that she had to CUT a tube in half... I said "No way" and she showed me the instruction book prompting the builder to cut the tube in half... So that would lead me to believe that cutting those tubes to fit your needs is perfectly fine...

So if you cut a tube, does it make you a non-purist or purist..?

I've been to many Lego shows and people talk about being 100% purists, but I've seen them use parts in ways that are very questionable and doesn't seem to be very "Pure"

Plus if Lego invents a new piece for a new model, does that make it a non-Lego model? Okay, "it's the Lego company", you might say, but what's the fundamental difference between a Lego-employee-designer or a non-Lego-employee-designer?

I think if a new piece is well designed, reusable and fits well into the theme (in it's material, shape, color, mechanical properties) etc, then one or two may be okay in a MOC and it would still be a Lego MOC. Declaring it a non-Lego would be rather arbitrary I think.

Maybe we should set rules on the shapes instead (like no "one Jeep Wrangler body piece" is allowed, no "steel parts just for the sake of strength" etc)

[Hey Joe]

I saw some photos recently (can't remember where exactly) of some internal Lego MOC vignettes for an in-company contest that they were running. They didn't seem too shy about using non-Lego parts. If it's good enough for them then...

[rumpletump]

I am not into Frankensteining parts, but here is something to think about... What about cutting certain parts to fit...? For example this part

Now the reason why I bring up this part is because I remember when my wife built the 8272 snowmobile set, she told me that she had to CUT a tube in half... I said "No way" and she showed me the instruction book prompting the builder to cut the tube in half... So that would lead me to believe that cutting those tubes to fit your needs is perfectly fine...

So if you cut a tube, does it make you a non-purist or purist..?

I've been to many Lego shows and people talk about being 100% purists, but I've seen them use parts in ways that are very questionable and doesn't seem to be very "Pure"

I'd say if the part is intended to be cut as part of an official set build then sure you should be able to cut it in the same way..

I might be a bit hazy but I'm pretty sure when I got my air tech claw rig 8868 as a young boy that the pneumatic hoses were just long lengths and you cut them to suit as you went along..

Not sure how I feel about cutting and drilling existing parts to create new ones that may well be useful but don't currently exist in any official capacity though. hmmm

[AndyC]

Now the reason why I bring up this part is because I remember when my wife built the 8272 snowmobile set, she told me that she had to CUT a tube in half... I said "No way" and she showed me the instruction book prompting the builder to cut the tube in half... So that would lead me to believe that cutting those tubes to fit your needs is perfectly fine...

Yeah, I've had a few sets that required cutting those tubes - it seemed wrong somehow, which is crazy when it's in the instructions. I'm pretty sure some of the old Pneumatic sets required you to cut hoses too. I still don't like doing it though, I can always imagine a situation arising the very next day where I need that part I cut, but just a little bit longer...

[Anio]

I've seen them use parts in ways that are very questionable and doesn't seem to be very "Pure"

True. But that's another question. It is the question that comes after.

Something like "To what extent can be used that Lego part ?"

The answer depends more on the building standards, building process, etc.

And indeed, some MOCers do use only actual Lego bricks. But the way they are used make the build illegal, unstable, not optimised, etc.

[Nazgarot]

And indeed, some MOCers do use only actual Lego bricks. But the way they are used make the build illegal, unstable, not optimised, etc.

Yes, that is something I'm wondering about. What are the techniques that makes a build illegal? I use several parts in ways Lego has never used them, but i see that as part of the flexibility in Lego. Every part is designed to fit in many ways. For example the stud of a normal piece will fit in the hole of a beam. But is it legal to use 3x2 plates to lock two studless beams together? Can I use the flex in a axle as a torsion spring? Can I use a column, a piece of string and an axle to make a longer cylinder (like was suggested here a while ago)?

Could someone please list the illegal techniques, or at least the criteria for making a technique illegal?

-ED-

Edited September 18, 2012 by Nazgarot

[mahjqa]

Since I've been busy making instructions it's been very simple; if other people can't make the model with off-the-shelf Lego parts, it's not going to be very useful.

Also, as soon as you start modifying parts, you stop looking at alternate solutions to your problem. In most situations where I thought I'd need a modified part, I ended up with an even better, 100% Lego solution later.

[Bricksonwheels]

I don't see the need for this. As being a Lego community the MOC should be around Lego. I use stickers, and chromed bricks, so to me add value to the model.

It is all about creativity.

Look at this perspective:

The funny thing is that it is a self cleaning system. You don't really need rigidity. If any would post something radically different with use of other elements or such, the reactions would show if this is something for this community or not. This way we stay open for new creative paths, which is what it is all about. If you look at moc's 10 years back and now, already a lot of things have changed, and i think evolution in this sense is a good thing.

[jorgeopesi]

Other was it removes some of the challenge of Lego if you can use anything you want.

I will say, where is the challenge if you can do anything you want?, totally agree with dandexter

Crowkillers I forgot this kind of pieces, like the rigid hoxes or the pneumatics tubes I think we can cut them anyway

MOC-Pure

MOC-ModifiedParts

MOC-inclNonLego

Nice idea RohanBeckett

Lipko of course you can design the best piece ever but the challenge is build with the original parts and think on the best way to use them.

They didn't seem too shy about using non-Lego parts. If it's good enough for them then...

I don´t have problem with those non-Lego models but at that point I preffer to use non-Lego parts in all the model, they will have more benefits if they are looking for more performance.

Rupletump you are right, we had to cut those pieces in the old sets.

And indeed, some MOCers do use only actual Lego bricks. But the way they are used make the build illegal, unstable, not optimised, etc.

Another good question Anio...

Could someone please list the illegal techniques, or at least the criteria for making a technique illegal?

That is my purpose Nazgarot

Also, as soon as you start modifying parts, you stop looking at alternate solutions to your problem. In most situations where I thought I'd need a modified part, I ended up with an even better, 100% Lego solution later.

You have all the reason in the world Mahjka.

Evolution is good but here we talk about people to think less evolves at least that´s is my opinion Bricksonwheels, if we want to design pieces is good but maybe another kind of forum will be better, a RC or model forum. Lego is not perfect and I like fighting against that.

Edited September 18, 2012 by jorgeopesi

[z3_2drive]

I think you could make an exception for things like my custom rechargeable battery, because I use it so I dont have to buy batteries and dont want to buy the lego one for $50...it would be unfair to build a whole model for lets say lego competition and be excluded for a battery, but when people cut pieces to fit somewhere(except flex axles and such) I think thats a lazy shortcut instead of figuring out a genuine solution..

[jorgeopesi]

I think you could make an exception for things like my custom rechargeable battery, because I use it so I dont have to buy batteries and dont want to buy the lego one for $50...it would be unfair to build a whole model for lets say lego competition and be excluded for a battery, but when people cut pieces to fit somewhere(except flex axles and such) I think thats a lazy shortcut instead of figuring out a genuine solution..

I am not a judge, I like to make a rules for all of us. I don´t have any problem with your battery on your MOCs but if you want to participate on a trial truck challenge for example, maybe you could have problems with the rules.

[DLuders]

There are no written "rules" for Lego construction, and there should not be. Here's why:

1) When you put batteries in your Lego Power Functions creation, you're already FORCED to use non-Lego parts. This is because The Lego Group (TLG) doesn't MAKE THOSE PARTS (i.e., the batteries). Do the non-Lego batteries make your Lego model not a "MOC" anymore? No, of course not! So, if you are willing to use non-Lego parts for this example, why not be consistent and use non-Lego parts in other situations when TLG DOES NOT MAKE THEM?

2) When you don't have the super-rare black 19L flexible hose to build Crowkillers' Vampire GT model, why not buy a RED one and color it black with a Sharpie pen? It's sensible, and better than not building that fantastic model at all (because you lack that one part). Common sense should govern.

3) You can create virtual models (using the official Lego Digital Designer software) using colors that are not available in real life. It's STILL LEGO and it's still YOUR MOC. You may not be able to build everything IN REAL LIFE with the LDD colors selected, but they're STILL LEGO. Again (to be consistent), if you can color your virtual MOC any way you want, why not be willing to PAINT your physical parts to match? Consider the two cars below -- they're BOTH BMWs:

[Jetro]

There are no written "rules" for Lego construction, and there should not be. Here's why:

You are welcome to your opinion, but it's just that: your opinion, and mine is different

1) When you put batteries in your Lego Power Functions creation, you're already FORCED to use non-Lego parts. This is because The Lego Group (TLG) doesn't MAKE THOSE PARTS (i.e., the batteries). Do the non-Lego batteries make your Lego model not a "MOC" anymore? No, of course not! So, if you are willing to use non-Lego parts for this example, why not be consistent and use non-Lego parts in other situations when TLG DOES NOT MAKE THEM?

In that case I may have to make sure to always use the Li-ion battery packs LEGO makes

But seriously, to me that's not an (valid) argument.

2) When you don't have the super-rare black 19L flexible hose to build Crowkillers' Vampire GT model, why not buy a RED one and color it black with a Sharpie pen? It's sensible, and better than not building that fantastic model at all (because you lack that one part). Common sense should govern.

I very strongly believe in common sense. I also believe in using the parts I have available or can (easily) get and finding alternative solutions when that is not possible.

3) You can create virtual models (using the official Lego Digital Designer software) using colors that are not available in real life. It's STILL LEGO and it's still YOUR MOC. You may not be able to build everything IN REAL LIFE with the LDD colors selected, but they're STILL LEGO. Again (to be consistent), if you can color your virtual MOC any way you want, why not be willing to PAINT your physical parts to match?

Until not so long ago, that was only possible with non-LEGO CAD programs. they also allowed for custom colours LEGO never has used or ever will. Again, while this is a perfectly good argument to you, it isn't to me.

Having said that, I should add that after giving this some thought appear to use a double set of standards. On the one hand I like my Technic and and Classic LEGO constructions to be 100% "authentic", meaning no third party pieces and no painting, but limited use of decals and stickers is not a problem. For Pneumatics I will use third party hoses and cut both flexible and rigid hoses to any necessary length.

In MINDSTORMS things change. I'm no longer building a LEGO model. I'm building a robot. I have no qualms with 3rd party sensors etc, although I do prefer the ones that come in "official" casings, as opposed to the ones that are not even encapsulated.

[RohanBeckett]

again.. I have no qualms about using 'odd' connections for lego pieces, as long as it doesn't irrepairably damage the part

this is about as official as you'll get with this topic:

http://bramlambrecht...stress-bf06.pdf

Same file as Powerpoint on Lego's site: cache.lego.com/downloads/brickfest2006/brickstress.ppt

and even they admit that there's some official sets in the past, that used techniques that wouldn't be accepted today!

We wouldn't see half the amazing MOC's today, if people didn't bend the rules a bit!!! ;)

RB

Edited September 18, 2012 by RohanBeckett

[Paul Boratko]

and even they admit that there's some official sets in the past, that used techniques that wouldn't be accepted today!

We wouldn't see half the amazing MOC's today, if people didn't bend the rules a bit!!! ;)

RB

I am still a little surprised that the 8110 Unimog has the roof being stressed downwards in order to connect with the windshield pillars... Unless my wife has it built wrong...

Edited September 18, 2012 by Paul Boratko

[jorgeopesi]

Wellcome to the "every-euro-kind-of-bricks" forum. I will still building with my own rules although it won´t be so easy. Of course I will respect all your opinions and all your Lego or non-Lego MOCs. If someone comes to us with a metallic chassis and Lego body, what are we going to do?.

[Meatman]

I'll be the first to admit that when I see a model with new parts that were created by modifying existing parts, it is very hard for me to take the model seriously and I lose interest rather quickly. I don't mind the coloring of parts(like chroming) as long as it looks like it was professionally done and not with a can of spray paint in someone's basement.

[Erik Leppen]

Since I've been busy making instructions it's been very simple; if other people can't make the model with off-the-shelf Lego parts, it's not going to be very useful.

This.

I think you can't present an instruction that contains a part that just isn't there. That's the good thing with Rebrickable - if I include a part that does not exist, it notifies me.

Also, I want to prove what "could have been done" with the current existing set of parts. That's why I try to be even stricter: I try to not use obsolete parts (parts that are official Lego, but are not in production anymore). Also I'm relucatent to using rubber band, because their characteristics can change over time, so, in my opinion, should not be depended on.

Also, as soon as you start modifying parts, you stop looking at alternate solutions to your problem. In most situations where I thought I'd need a modified part, I ended up with an even better, 100% Lego solution later.

True as well. Not sure the solution is always "even better" in any meaning, but it's better because it's actually possible (i.e. because it's 100% Lego) ;)

I do tend to make an exception for string though.

---

There are no written "rules" for Lego construction, and there should not be. Here's why:

Making your point in big bold red letters doesn't make it any more valid

1) When you put batteries in your Lego Power Functions creation, you're already FORCED to use non-Lego parts. This is because The Lego Group (TLG) doesn't MAKE THOSE PARTS (i.e., the batteries). Do the non-Lego batteries make your Lego model not a "MOC" anymore? No, of course not! So, if you are willing to use non-Lego parts for this example, why not be consistent and use non-Lego parts in other situations when TLG DOES NOT MAKE THEM?

Lego battery packs are meant to put batteries in. We're using a Lego part as intended. Surely that's allowed, right?

2) When you don't have the super-rare black 19L flexible hose to build Crowkillers' Vampire GT model, why not buy a RED one and color it black with a Sharpie pen? It's sensible, and better than not building that fantastic model at all (because you lack that one part). Common sense should govern.

Of course common sense should govern, but my common sense is, Oh, there's one part I don't have in black, so I have to find another solution. Either make the car in red, or replace the part by someting that's available in black. That's my common sense ;)

3) You can create virtual models (using the official Lego Digital Designer software) using colors that are not available in real life. It's STILL LEGO and it's still YOUR MOC. You may not be able to build everything IN REAL LIFE with the LDD colors selected, but they're STILL LEGO.

I think the rules for virtual models are very different. That's the whole idea of virtual models - that you can do things you can't do with physical bricks. E.g.

Blakbird's render of the orange Countach. That (probably) can't be done in real life, but it's still interesting to see how it looks in a render.

Again (to be consistent), if you can color your virtual MOC any way you want, why not be willing to PAINT your physical parts to match?

Coloring a virtual MOC does not damage Lego parts. It's reversible. That's for me a deciding factor. If someting is reversible, then it's allowed. For example, this:

[image]

is not reversible. So it's not allowed. Even though it's 100% Lego and everyone can acquire the parts and build it (imagine for the moment that the axle joiner is in a color that actually exists).

And in fact - I think chroming is against my rules as well. But I do ignore the height difference between Technic holes and studs-on-side (0,12 mm), because I think this height difference has no reason to (still) exist.

I am still a little surprised that the 8110 Unimog has the roof being stressed downwards in order to connect with the windshield pillars... Unless my wife has it built wrong...

Is it? In my memory it was hinged.

Edit: I looked it up, and technically you're right. It is an illegal construction, but it is not a construction that's forced. But it's nothing I worry about - it fits with no problem, because there's always a little play. If you wouldn't allow that, a lot of ths tuff with angles wouldn't be possible. E.g. 8880 would then also contain illegal constructions - no way that body is an exact fit.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Erik Leppen

[GuiliuG]

I'll be the first to admit that when I see a model with new parts that were created by modifying existing parts, it is very hard for me to take the model seriously and I lose interest rather quickly. I don't mind the coloring of parts(like chroming) as long as it looks like it was professionally done and not with a can of spray paint in someone's basement.

Totaly agree with this ! It sounds for me like an easy solution for someone who don't want spend much times to develop another solution.

And yes, I'm a purist :)

Edited September 18, 2012 by GuiliuG

[allanp]

I am still a little surprised that the 8110 Unimog has the roof being stressed downwards in order to connect with the windshield pillars... Unless my wife has it built wrong...

I think she's built it wrong

Here's my own rules for qualifying of the classifications of "pure technic".

Batteries of the type prescribed by TLG are allowed.

Cutting ribbed hoses and pneumatic tubing is allowed.

Painting/colouring/chroming parts and custom stickers are allowed in moderation.

Cutting and gluing parts is prohibited. Same goes for scratch built parts, altering the material properties of parts, deforming parts or removing the internal gearing from motors (done that to an XL motor, it's wonderful! But not pure Lego). However it is at times frustrating when they don't make the parts you want. How on earth have they not got round to making more sizes of the synchromesh gear yet, or longer pneumatics, or.....

Third party tyres are normally Prohibited. However if the model still performs fine without third party tyres then it's deemed to be only a minor cosmetic change (like chroming wheels) and so is allowed.

Using lubricants is not allowed. However there are exceptions for working models used for display and events (however they should work fine without lubrication) and a suitable lubricant for pneumatics is allowed to prevent any kind of deterioration of the seals or metal parts.

As far as i'm concerned, thems the rules. Feel free to ignore them

Edited September 18, 2012 by allanp