Jetro Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 All my models have some "modifications" which you can see when looking tires that I use, but it is still LEGO example http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=513015 I wouldn't call that a modification. You simply combine LEGO elements in a different way. To make big gears I had to take a part this turntable http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?P=48452cx1, but did not brake anything, so it can be put together. To me that isn't a modification either. It is still 100% LEGO.
1gor Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 I wouldn't call that a modification. You simply combine LEGO elements in a different way. To me that isn't a modification either. It is still 100% LEGO. Exactly my point of view. It is like you bought yourself a car and put different headlights to it it is still the same make/model... Even LEGO developers cut pieces and glue them together when they construct new parts... Igor
Jetro Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 That's not what I am saying. There is no gluing or cutting involved in what was mentioned, just a different combination of parts or the use of partial elements in a non-destructive way.
Nazgarot Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 Its not really about rim slip, its about the crappy rubber compounds of lego tires, which are more like plastic then rubber, hobby rc tires have much better grip and better tread patterns to hook onto edges of obstacles, im getting some soon because im tired of lego tires slipping while climbing a steep slope or in wet conditions... No, I was not talking about rim slip. I was considering both better grip (by changing the profile of the tire) and better looks... The question was, is it considered an illegal technique to modify Lego tires by using Lego rims that will stretch the tire? -ED-
DLuders Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 Recall when Paul Boratko told us a story of his experience at the (Chicago, USA) Brickworld Lego convention? He said that some people DISMISSED his Lego Technic MOCs since they believed that they were "not real Lego". How closed-minded can people be? AFOLs on this forum who DISMISS creative uses of compatible, non-Lego parts are being just as close-minded. Waiting (year after year) for The Lego Group to meter-out a handful of new parts is not going to meet the hopes (and expectations) of many builders. By dismissing other possibilities you are LIMITING YOURSELF. We are creating MODELS -- there are no written rules that you MUST use 100% Lego. Only a misplaced "fan loyalty" would cause you to do that. Inventors "think outside of the box". Lego Technic and Mindstorms are arguably THE MOST CREATIVE and challenging Lego themes, where INNOVATION is key to long-term success. Consider what Thomas Edison (inventor of the Light Bulb and many other inventions) said:
hoeij Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 Looking at the discussion here, it looks like the unwritten rules should just stay as they are: unwritten. Before lego came out with remote control, I took the electronic components out of an old broken remote-control toy car car and used them in a lego model. I thought that was a pretty creative way to use the available components. From a purist point of view, I suppose that model was not OK at the time. But just a few years later, lego came out with remote control components, so now you can make the exact same thing with lego components. Here is a question though for lego purists: The train wheels in the train sets, when they are new, they roll very well, with very little friction (meaning: you can pull a long train with relatively little effort). However, after some time, due to a design flaw, the wheels start rubbing against the wheel holder, and this increases friction. But you can make them run as well as new wheels by cutting away a small part of the plastic in the wheel holder. Would that still be an acceptable move? You can't see the difference (unless you pick the train off the track and look underneath). Functionally, what it does is make an older wheelset behave as well as a new (not-yet-modified) wheelset. Instead of cutting, one could buy new wheelsets from lego, but they're expensive, and it does not take very long before they start to rub too.
efferman Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) before my dark ages i was a cutter and user of the dremel after my dark ages i was a purist today i accept and love third party tires on lego rims, but not more on mine mocs. but i tolerate cutters, gluers and purists. Everyone should do its own way and have Fun with it in between their skills and asthetics. Edited September 21, 2012 by efferman
Stevee Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 I just don´t care - i´ve got no dremel. I´ve got a Proxxon
jorgeopesi Posted September 21, 2012 Author Posted September 21, 2012 I_Igor I love your work with the wheels combination and it seems to me totally purist.
Scorpion Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 My rules? Do whatever you please. As long as a large majority of parts are LEGO, it's a LEGO MOC for me. I don't mind people altering or making new parts, though I don't do it myself. And I don't mind for one simple reason: LEGO isn't a finished system. Every year the LEGO Company puts out new parts adding new functionality to sets, adding to the parts pool we already have. So if they haven't stopped innovating, why should we? There are lot's of times when I came across a problem that would've been solved by a brick that didn't exist. It would be a simple and elegant solution that turned into an ugly complicated mess when it was built with existing bricks... Who knows? Maybe someone who is inspired to make a new bootleg part in turn inspires LEGO to turn a fan-favourite into an official part?
Meatman Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 I can see both sides on this one, but me personally, I can't accept home made parts mixed in with traditional unaltered parts. It just seems like it defeats the purpose of looking for the best possible solution. Like Dluders said, people already have a difficult time associating technic with the system blocks, and I would think that knowing that technic builders cut and modify existing parts probably wouldn't help the connection.
skylinedan Posted September 22, 2012 Posted September 22, 2012 I look at it this way, if I was gonna build something I thought should be 100% LEGO , then I,m gonna do it. If, on the other hand I,m building something that needs a modded part or something that does,nt yet exsist, i,m Gonna build it. I,m working on a longer cylinder for a crane because we all know LEGO does,nt have one. That limits my ability to build what I want, yes, its not LEGO, but it gets the job done, and I,m happy. My happieness is what counts, LOL. Dan
KEvron Posted September 22, 2012 Posted September 22, 2012 rule one: you do not talk about fight club. if you're altering elements or using otl (other than lego) in your mocs, then you should declare a caveat. in big, dripping, red letters, ya' heretics. KEvron
dhc6twinotter Posted September 22, 2012 Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) AFOLs on this forum who DISMISS creative uses of compatible, non-Lego parts are being just as close-minded. Waiting (year after year) for The Lego Group to meter-out a handful of new parts is not going to meet the hopes (and expectations) of many builders. By dismissing other possibilities you are LIMITING YOURSELF. We are creating MODELS -- there are no written rules that you MUST use 100% Lego. Only a misplaced "fan loyalty" would cause you to do that. On the flip side, I think building within the limitations of LEGO parts requires more creativity. I would hardly say it's limiting ourselves, but rather forcing us to think outside the box. Edison was limited by the parts and technology of the day, but he thought outside the box and certainly came up with some revolutionary inventions. Edited September 22, 2012 by dhc6twinotter
jorgeopesi Posted September 22, 2012 Author Posted September 22, 2012 On the flip side, I think building within the limitations of LEGO parts requires more creativity. I would hardly say it's limiting ourselves, but rather forcing us to think outside the box. Edison was limited by the parts and technology of the day, but he thought outside the box and certainly came up with some revolutionary inventions. I agree with you. I think if someone was able to make a sequential gearbox or a dual clutch one with only Lego, we can do everything and the way to achieve this is the fun.
Lipko Posted September 22, 2012 Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) This whole purist thing is nothing unique to Lego by the way. I did paper modelling for long (completely self-created stuff), there is this purism too. I do cooking. I am purist in that too (using spice mixtures and other stuff makes me feel cheating). It can also be observed to some extent in game programming (low-level vs high-level language wars, using or creating engines, tools etc) I don't really understand why non 100% purism is so evil to many people (including me). I guess bypassing one challenge with non-Lego a piece makes us feel we can do this to any challenges, so the whole Lego building loses it's main characteristics, and we start to be afraid of thinking that why are we even building with Lego if everything can be solved with neater, stronger, more efficient and better looking ways. So maybe purists are just defending their entire hobby and fabricating ideologies to overcome their fear of loss. Or maybe beansoup. Edited September 22, 2012 by Lipko
KEvron Posted September 22, 2012 Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) I think building within the limitations of LEGO parts requires more creativity. bingo. it's in the limitations that the challenge lies. success lies in overcoming those limitations. heh. they've recently been airing Apollo 13 on amc. the air filter scene. good, old-fashioned, nuts-and-bolts scifi! KEvron Edited September 22, 2012 by KEvron
allanp Posted September 22, 2012 Posted September 22, 2012 Looking at the discussion here, it looks like the unwritten rules should just stay as they are: unwritten. Before lego came out with remote control, I took the electronic components out of an old broken remote-control toy car car and used them in a lego model. I thought that was a pretty creative way to use the available components. From a purist point of view, I suppose that model was not OK at the time. But just a few years later, lego came out with remote control components, so now you can make the exact same thing with lego components. Here is a question though for lego purists: The train wheels in the train sets, when they are new, they roll very well, with very little friction (meaning: you can pull a long train with relatively little effort). However, after some time, due to a design flaw, the wheels start rubbing against the wheel holder, and this increases friction. But you can make them run as well as new wheels by cutting away a small part of the plastic in the wheel holder. Would that still be an acceptable move? You can't see the difference (unless you pick the train off the track and look underneath). Functionally, what it does is make an older wheelset behave as well as a new (not-yet-modified) wheelset. Instead of cutting, one could buy new wheelsets from lego, but they're expensive, and it does not take very long before they start to rub too. That's fine, all you are doing it getting it to work like Lego intended.
Bricksonwheels Posted September 22, 2012 Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) bingo. it's in the limitations that the challenge lies. success lies in overcoming those limitations. KEvron How can limitation increase creativity?... that is just a narrow minded perspective. I love those who come with new stuff and walk new paths. Whatever that is, and how genuine or however, i don't care, there might be many who like it. I have said it before, if a creative mind would build something awesome, but too far from Lego in the eyes of many here, then it would be a self cleaning mechanism and the style would dissapear from the forums again, but the opposite might also happen... that is being open for new things and cherish true creativity within self regulating borders. Edited September 22, 2012 by Bricksonwheels
jorgeopesi Posted September 22, 2012 Author Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) We won´t invent anything here that is not really developed, the best thing we do is try to reproduce it with Lego. If you really want to do something really amazing you'll have to do it with the best possible materials and the plastic is not one of them, I leave that job to the f1 design although of course I would like to be able to reach it . One self-inflicted limitation is good in soccer accept not to use your hands and why they are so good with their feet, except goalkepper . Edited September 22, 2012 by jorgeopesi
KEvron Posted September 22, 2012 Posted September 22, 2012 How can limitation increase creativity?. well, that begs the question "does limitation increase creativity?" that is just a narrow minded perspective. you'll have to take it up with the person who suggested it. KEvron
Anio Posted September 22, 2012 Posted September 22, 2012 How can limitation increase creativity?Juste look at more or less every official set. ... that is just a narrow minded perspective.I doubt Lego designers are narrow minded.
Ralph_S Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 (edited) bingo. it's in the limitations that the challenge lies. success lies in overcoming those limitations. heh. they've recently been airing Apollo 13 on amc. the air filter scene. good, old-fashioned, nuts-and-bolts scifi! KEvron That wasn't science fiction, but the way they actually did it. you'll have to take it up with the person who suggested it. KEvron That's just a cop-out. Since you agreed with the comment that building within the limitations of LEGO parts requires more creativity, Bricksonwheels' comment that it is narrow-minded can also be directed at you. How can limitation increase creativity?... that is just a narrow minded perspective. I love those who come with new stuff and walk new paths. Whatever that is, and how genuine or however, i don't care, there might be many who like it. I have said it before, if a creative mind would build something awesome, but too far from Lego in the eyes of many here, then it would be a self cleaning mechanism and the style would dissapear from the forums again, but the opposite might also happen... that is being open for new things and cherish true creativity within self regulating borders. I doubt Lego designers are narrow minded. Trying to recreate something using a limited set of bricks requires creativity, but so does coming up with new parts or modifying parts to suit your purpose. Saying that the former requires creativity and the latter doesn't is narrow-minded indeed. I prefer to build things using just LEGO elements. However, in the non-too-distant past, I used non-LEGO plastic for aircraft canopies. I felt this was perfectly acceptable at the time, since useful trans clear parts were so hard to get hold of. Cheers, Ralph Edited September 23, 2012 by Ralph_S
agrof Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 (edited) How can limitation increase creativity?... that is just a narrow minded perspective. I love those who come with new stuff and walk new paths. Whatever that is, and how genuine or however, i don't care, there might be many who like it. I have said it before, if a creative mind would build something awesome, but too far from Lego in the eyes of many here, then it would be a self cleaning mechanism and the style would dissapear from the forums again, but the opposite might also happen... that is being open for new things and cherish true creativity within self regulating borders. Hmmm... just a quick question: why are wheel, car, airplane, computer and so many things invented? Maybe because of limitation... the human body is limited in speed, in carrying capacity, in calculating. If you think a bit further, why the human beings began to grow plants and animals? Because of the limited available amount of food. I understand You think about using "alien" parts for making things (MOCs) better and better, this is good, and research, challange. We also get new parts from Lego year to year, they do the same. Also to invent new parts / constructions you need to reach out the comfort zone. We are on the same side in this issue. But actually ask "How can limitation increase creativity?" - it is not really deliberated question in my opinion. Maybe it is too philosophical. Peace. Edited September 23, 2012 by agrof
Bricksonwheels Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 By definition: Creativity is defined as the tendency to generate or recognize ideas, alternatives, or possibilities that may be useful in solving problems, communicating with others, and entertaining ourselves and others. I think the main discussion here is what framework should be put around the above, concerning our moc hobby, and i am convinced no one would ever agree. Some just like limitations as a challenge, other like their cards open for fresh ideas. Both can give pleasure,.... i am convinced, it is a personal matter. I felt limited in my creativity by the lack of chrome about 3 years ago, and really wanted to do better on my models then the regular gray bricks. I found a company capable of chrome-electroplating bricks in volume for me. I was the first using that technique (i dislike the 'painted' ones), and luckily many others like it as well. My models are genuine lego but 'tuned' with true chrome and custom decals. I think that is accepted here. That is also what i meant with self regulating. What if i would fit custom windows (i could easily lasercut them at work from acrylic plastic)? My gut feeling tells me for many it would be too 'hybrid', as additional parts are added... but the model itself could look better. I guess i might just do it on a future build, and see how it lands. Custom windows might be a new trend , .. or they will be shot down in flames...
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