Announcement: MocPlans.com

[aqaz]

Blakbird:

This is not an 'argument' it is an opinion....

Your analogy is spurious in that you have chosen to use an example that is a one in a million skill, out of any given population, of lets say a country, only a handful are gifted talented artists. Other people buy their work because it is universally agreed to be a thing of beauty, better yet the work is exhibited for all to see..... The rest of the population do not try to copy it.

Better to use an analogy of, say, food. Just like lego, everyone can easily acquire the basic skills needed to cook something and with a little practise every occasionally they cook something really good, and are disproportionately proud of the outcome in the eyes of those who find it easy or who do it professionally..... What you are saying is basically that these people should only ever buy ready meals because they, for whatever excuse, will never do anything of value.

You say: 'Not everyone can create their own beautiful supercar MOC with excellent functions' this, in itself, is true...

But: 'Does this mean they are not allowed to enjoy Technic?' does not and should not follow on from this, you have set an unrealistic benchmark, you are saying: If you can not build a supercar you should not touch technic.

Reread my first comment, I did not say you should not build what others did, indeed I said: '... and seeing how others did similar...'

What I implied, however, is that, in my opinion, building a MOC (however good) should be your goal for maximum self satisfaction.... Of course you should study others and learn techniques (I agree entirely with legomuppet9, 'flick through instructions or step by step photos and have a look at how people created stuff, and then combine various different components into my model')

I am not at all expert, I was only saying my goal is building MOC's of what I want.... If I copied others it would be a SEOC, someone else's own creation, and would, for me, hold no satisfaction.

Being able to study how others did things is nothing but good, but it should not be an end in itself.

nychase: I wish you well and hope your site is a great success, I would also say I agree with everyone else in that I too think it is a good idea.

[imajor]

aqaz I agree with you. I made 1-2 mocs so far (they are very far from the great mocs, but I really enjoyed making them, especially when I was able to finish them), and I also built several official models from instructions. I enjoyed both, but I agree that designing and building something on your own is the best thing you can do with lego. However, I have very limited time (work, kids, other hobbies), so when I finally have 1-2 hours to play lego, in many cases I prefer to build something from instructions, which I can finish in 1-2 hours, instead of starting something, and then putting it away for weeks.

When I was a kid, I hade plenty of time, but limited access to lego (it was quite expensive and inaccessible here). Now it is the opposite, since I have my own job, I can buy lego, but I have barely any time playing with them.

[OzBen]

I'm looking forward to the launch of Mocplans,

I have a decent collection of built sets and I have done a little bit of MOCing but I can happily admit that my skills are not at a level to create anything like the great MOCs that I see posted here in the technic forum.

So the opportunity to build someone else's creation using interesting techniques that perhaps TLC designers may shy away from will hopefully help me to develop my skills to a point where I can share a creation in the future.

Then there is the fact that I'm a huge F1 fan so models like Roscoes F1 cars are just way too cool not to build!!

I suppose the thing to remember is that this hobby is supposed to be fun!!! :-)

[aqaz]

imajor: When I was a kid I never heard of Lego (1950's), I bought it for my children because, again only in my opinion, it was worth every penny. Lego had a slogan back then: 'Lego, a new toy every day.' and I thought it easily lived up to it.

I have only taken it up since I retired so I can at once afford it and have time to do it, however, your line: '... they are very far from the great mocs, but I really enjoyed making them, especially when I was able to finish them... ' is my sentiment exactly.

OzBen: '... but I can happily admit that my skills are not at a level to create anything like the great MOCs that I see posted here in the technic forum....' Just like me!

'So the opportunity to build someone else's creation using interesting techniques that perhaps TLC designers may shy away from will hopefully help me to develop my skills to a point where I can share a creation in the future.' ... Is exactly the ambition that I tried to describe!

'I suppose the thing to remember is that this hobby is supposed to be fun!!! :-)'... Not supposed to be, it is, ... tremendous fun!

rocklego said it all: 'One of the main reasons I love Lego is I enjoy much more entire building process than outcome.

During the process one can find lots of solution to whatever problem one will encounter.

Just use your imagination and a little of of engineering concept ,you will be able to build something different from others in your own way.

That is truly fun and joyful.

Praise Lego for bringing the world so extraordinary .'

Edited May 29, 2013 by aqaz

[Balrog]

aqaz you are partly right, as is Blakbird. There are a lot of different people and not everyone treats their hobby in the same way. I guess I am a good example for this case. Currently, I am still in the learning phase with Technic. I just got back into it last year (with being back into Lego for quite some time now). I started right away with the Unimog. Though, I soon realized, that building my own stuff (like when I was a kid) is harder than I imagined. As time went by, I got some more sets and also got into custom instructions. So after finding a decent model with instructions, I also got into Bricklink.

After getting my 8070, I decided soon to build my own supercar. If you lookup the thread, you will see, that I failed. I realized, that I must build more, learn new methods and techniques before I can really build a cool car myself. But how should I learn? I guess learning from those who already made great models is the best way, thus using custom instructions (if available) is a good idea. Reverse engineering might work, too, but only if you have a digital model. Only a few builders are good at reverse engineering from pictures. Also, reverse engineering (or engineering in general) is very time intensive. I am an adult with a job and some free-time activities that have high priority. So I need to use my Lego time as good as I can.

So right now, I still have a long way in front of me. The last thing I build from instructions was the MB Trac of arthra08. Though, I modified it myself, motorized the functions, included an automatic pneumatic pump. I am proud. Also I am not finished there. I built some attachments (some good, others meh), developped them myself, which can be considered successful MOCs. And after that I want to build some other models, of which I obtained instructions and already got some supplemental parts. Still I have the challenge to bypass some parts I still miss, building some things differently and finding my own way or even change some parts completely to my liking.

So in my opinion, you shouldn't talk so bad about custom instructions (free or sold). But that is my opinion and I guess it is always good to look at the other side of the coin. In the end, this is again one of the topics that are not even black or white, but also there are a lot of grey shades inbetween.

[Paul Boratko]

aqaz, it is great to hear that you feel that building your own models is the way to go and I cannot disagree with that at all, the only models that I have built from instructions in the last 10+ years have been 2(well 1.5) of Nathanael's models.. But the reality is that everyone doesn't have the time to sit down and spend 2 months trying to get a mechaniam to work properly, or the money or resources to to buy every part(or set) out there to build what they want, so they would rather rely on instructions and actual part lists that suit their needs... I have a waiting list of people that want models completely built and have no desire to even build them, they are just looking for display pieces... Many people like the idea of building the model more than actually building it for themselves.... I know it sounds crazy, but it is true..

Even if you don't plan on building a model, instructions are a great way to get ideas and learn new things that you otherwise may have overlooked...

[Bob De Quatre]

Lego is also a chance for everyone to build what they want. If someone want to build something on it's own and create what we call a MOC, he can do it. But if someone want to built something by following instructions, I think it's nice to have a website that allow you do have access to great models.

Using instructions is also a way to acquire skills, techniques and ideas...

For me, if I ever get back to lego technics, I'll have to follow instructions for some time, because there are so many parts and techniques that didn't existed back in 1998 when I stopped "playing" with lego.

[rocklego]

I think freedom is everyone's right. One can chose , decide ,and play whatever one want to do with Lego.

One of the most important thing playing Lego is have to be fun.

[aqaz]

Balrog: '...you shouldn't talk so bad about custom instructions...' I did/am not talking bad about custom instructions.

I did say; 'learn from others' but I suppose the key words in all I have said (and now wish I had not, by your and others reactions) is; '...for me...'

I am expressing a personal opinion, I do not want to influence anybody else.

Paul Boratko: 'Even if you don't plan on building a model, instructions are a great way to get ideas and learn new things that you otherwise may have overlooked...' Is a rewording of what I said earlier, I also do not think you should criticise me, when you do exactly the same as I

'...But the reality is that everyone doesn't have the time to sit down and spend 2 months trying to get a mechaniam to work properly, or the money or resources to to buy every part(or set) out there to build what they want,...' implies that there is something wrong with being retired and having both time and money, I know everyone else does not, again, the key words: '...for me...' I do not want anybody to be influenced by what I want to do. Also, I do not know what a 'mechaniam' is.

Bob De Quatre, rocklego: I could not agree more, you stress the words I in fact used earlier.

[Meatman]

aqaz, you are kind of all over the place . No one has criticized you, they are just pointing out that not everyone out there enjoys building just their own models. You have come into the discussion and expressed your thoughts and criticized basically everyone who is supporting the mocplans idea because you think that people should build their own models.

I am one of those people who loves to build, but does not have time to sit down and spend countless hours/days/months designing my own creations, and quite frankly one of the reasons why (which I am also not afraid to admit) is that I just don't have the talent to do so, despite having a engineering background. So I have no problems finding MOCs that I really like and building them. I am most certain that there are many more people out there like myself who can appreciate guys that go out of their way to make instructions available to the community.

[aqaz]

Meatman: '...criticized basically everyone who is supporting the mocplans idea because you think that people should build their own models....'

No, I have not criticised anybody for supporting mocplans.... I support mocplans!

I did say: 'I was only saying my goal is building MOC's of what I want....' and; '... in my opinion, building a MOC (however good) should be your goal for maximum self satisfaction....' my opinion... self satisfaction... my goal... for me....

I have talked about what I think for me, not anyone else.... everybody should do as they like.

[Paul Boratko]

I never critized you, I merely pointed out that not everyone has the resources available to them to design models of their own, nor do they want to design their own models... I am far from retired, but as fate would have it, my wife and I do not have any children, so I have much more free time to build and design things... There are many guys that I know who wish they had more time, but it can be difficult being a father and devoting time to your hobby as well...

[Blakbird]

This is not an 'argument' it is an opinion....

The word "argument" here simply means one side of a debate and does not imply any animosity. Thanks for the healthy debate, by the way. Whether we agree or not, it is always useful to become familiar with the logic behind dissenting opinions.

Your analogy is spurious in that you have chosen to use an example that is a one in a million skill, out of any given population, of lets say a country, only a handful are gifted talented artists. Other people buy their work because it is universally agreed to be a thing of beauty, better yet the work is exhibited for all to see..... The rest of the population do not try to copy it.

Better to use an analogy of, say, food. Just like lego, everyone can easily acquire the basic skills needed to cook something and with a little practise every occasionally they cook something really good,

I think you may be underestimating the talents and skills required to make an excellent Technic MOC. The creative talent to come up with an aesthetically pleasing LEGO design is uncommon, but not rare. The engineering talent to come up with a functionally workable and reliable design is even more uncommon. The types of personalities with each of these skills are generally quite different, so the number of people with BOTH talents is very small indeed. In my opinion, this is no more common than painters, hence my analogy. I can personally attest to the fact that NOT everyone can build (or cook) something good with a little practice, even with an extensive technical background. I completely agree that everyone should probably TRY to build something on their own, to learn, and to explore their own creativity. But at a certain age it becomes apparent whether this skill is available to an individual or not.

It is very easy for a talented person to underestimate their own talent because it is natural to them. I have been guilty of this myself. I remember when I was at University that I commented once that I found calculus pathetically easy. This was true to me because it was so intuitive that I didn't really even need to think about it. However, one of my friends heard this comment and talked to me about it later. He worked very hard in calculus and struggled to get a good grade. My comment was hurtful to him because it made him feel inadequate.

You said:

Surely building MOC's should be just that.... My Own Creation.... Following plans takes away all the challenge and fun of working out solutions, building and experimenting and seeing how others did similar, then rebuilding and rebuilding and more experimenting, till you get what you first envisaged.... Isn't Lego all about using your imagination.

This can make someone who chooses to build from instructions feel inadequate or feel that others are implying they are not worthy of being considered a "real" LEGO builder. I think there is room for all of us and we need to respect the contributions of every member of the community. For example, making instructions is also a talent that not everyone has. A certain amount of computer skill, organization, and spatial awareness is required. Doing this is also a valuable way to contribute to the community, and is a way for those of us with less creative talent for building to feel useful.

but it can be difficult being a father and devoting time to your hobby as well...

Touché!

[AndroTech]

For me, building Crowkillers Vampire was the same (or even better) then building OOB 8070. Actually 8070 is someone MOC, fortunately, he is working for TLG and it become official set. So according to aqaz, I shouldn't build other peoples MOC's, because it is not fulfilling or satisfactory. I should stop buying Lego sets, and just buy bricks of BL, and build MOC's.

Unfortunately, it doesn't go that way.

[aqaz]

Paul Boratko: Sorry, That was my assumption, clearly I falsely perceived the line that fit my situation as criticism.

Blakbird, et al:

'This can make someone who chooses to build from instructions feel inadequate or feel that others are implying they are not worthy of being considered a "real" LEGO builder.'

If this is the case, for anyone, I would like to say that it was never my intention to imply any such thing, further, If any of you have taken it as such then I would like to offer my unreserved apologies for any slight I might have inadvertently caused: I am truly very sorry.

Blakbird, you have shocked me by pointing this out. To be perfectly honest, it never crossed my mind that this could be the case. I do see it now you have mentioned it.

​I had made the assumption that I was the new starter in the company of experts, indeed from some of the comments in my own thread (admittedly, from some too young to know better) everyone here has seen it all before and done far far better way back when.

As I said in that other thread, I only joined for an 'expert' opinion on my Magnum.... I wanted to know if I was doing it right and if I had a place at the table of builders of other MOC trucks that I had seen here and at other places..... Consequently, the notion that I could make someone feel inadequate did not occur to me, even after saying this I find it slightly unbelievable.

Coincidently, my masters is also mathematics, and again coincidently, I could not believe they were giving degrees for something so easy. ( I did, however, understand that few could do this degree much less find it easy. Conversely, I found/find speaking Chinese very difficult even after several years, to the amusement of my Chinese family. )

Povratnik: If you read and understood what I wrote above you should know I did not say, or imply: '...So according to aqaz, I shouldn't build other peoples MOC's, because it is not fulfilling or satisfactory. I should stop buying Lego sets, and just buy bricks of BL, and build MOC's....' You are choosing to make that inference, I do not think anyone else is deliberately misunderstanding. I have made it abundantly clear that I am only talking about myself.

Edited May 29, 2013 by aqaz

[Blakbird]

Thank you for your explanation aqaz. Absolutely no harm done, so don't worry about it. I probably (unfairly) read more into your statement than I should have because there have been other posts in the past which made more inflammatory statements. But those have nothing to do with you and you shouldn't be penalized for them.

I think we are all in agreement. LEGO as a hobby offers a little something for everyone. It is interesting to builders, designers, artists, engineers, collectors, software authors, CAD users, and probably others I am forgetting. As long as the hobby provides to each of us that which makes us smile, I have no complaints. I personally enjoy building from instructions largely because I am a perfectionist and I want to see the best models sitting on my shelves, and I know that they aren't going to be designed by me!

[Sato]

Well from my own experience so far all I can say is that creating a MOC worthy of sharing/showing can be very intimidating after spending a lot of time on forums such as these these.

I felt so intimidated that I never even try'ed, Up until now...

Because I'm sort of disabled (I might share that story later) I struggle to learn new things, Therefore Technic MOC's made by me won't appear on these forums anytime soon.

A while ago I started an attempt to build all 20 of Nathanaël Kuipers 5867 alternates, After succeeding in building two of them (Le mans and Rescue-truck) I read about his upcoming book and gave up as my initial intend was to release my reverse engineered versions to the community as LDD files.

Now about a week and a half ago I got so bored I wanted to do something with Lego but also do a Puzzle at the same time, As you might have guessed I got back to NK's 5867 alternates.

As I'm writing this I have finished eighteen of them and only have two left to do (Forklift and Quad-bike), I expect I will be able to finish those two by tomorrow.

In the process of doing this I saw an opportunity in his Vintage car model and decided to give it a roof, rear spoiler, change the front slightly and made some changes to the back giving it a look like a Morgan Aero 8 GT3 race-car, While still restricting myself to the parts available in set 5867. (I'll have some pictures of that up later, SD Card reader ain't working, And USB cable for the camera is MIA.)

And more importantly I learned a great deal about snot and other techniques while needing to apply them, And most importantly I learned not to focus on a specific problem but work my way around it.

This whole process has boosted my confidence to a level where i'm willing to give Moc'ing a try, Now in order to not be overwhelmed and get demotivated again I'm going to limited my efforts to single and/or two LEGO set Moc's, Based on small set's like 5867 and 31006.

For anyone wondering whether I will share the LDD files for NK's 5867 alternates, The answer is simple: I won't.

Because of his upcoming books this would be a very wrong thing to do, And if your interested in building them my only advice is this: Either you buy his books or you do the same as me and rebuild them using his pictures as your guide.

I've sent him an email to which he has reply'ed and I understand and respect his reasons behind the books, Which I plan to buy to see how well I've done.

With his permission and if there's interest in them I might provide instructions on how to alter the Vintage car to my race prepped version, But that all depends on how the book version is build and will take a while as that model appears in Volume 2. (To be released in September.)

I hope you all can forgive me for this on/off topic post as it's not really Technic, I do however have one question though:

Creator (And therefore Creator Moc's) has(have) been put under the 'Special LEGO Themes' forum on this forum, In my opinion NK's 5867 alternates could be considered to be Model team as well.

So my question is: On which forum-section should I place my mocs when I've got something to show?

Sato.

[OzBen]

so.........this thread has gone quiet......progress update?

[nychase]

UPDATE:

Check out MOCplans.com

Have a few tweaks to make based on feedback from some users here but things are looking promising for the next few days.

[Rishab N]

UPDATE:

Check out MOCplans.com

Have a few tweaks to make based on feedback from some users here but things are looking promising for the next few days.

I don't see any difference since the last update...

[nychase]

Well that is incredibly annoying. It was showing fine last night when I updated it and then linked it.

I have to wait until I am home tonight to repost it.

[EyesOnly]

That is murphys law in action.

[nychase]

Well... I do believe the site is what you would call LIVE.

Since its a Beta site please let me know your thoughts/comments/concerns. I know we will have quite a bit of work to do prior to a full launch.

EDIT: Its worth noting that I am just waiting for Nathan from Rebrickable to "turn on" all those MOC's on his site and then I will link them so that everyone has the inventories for all those MOCS!

Edited September 4, 2013 by nychase

[legolijntje]

Nice, I bought Grazi's truck as a test, because it is $1.

I hope a lot of other instructions will be added, and maybe some instructions of me in the future

I have 1 request though; could you please add a few example pages of the instructions at every MOC? I always would like to see the quality of the instructions before I buy them.

Thanks for the website! :thumbup:

[Alasdair Ryan]

And maybe some instructions of me in the future

never.......

Your site looks very professional.

I am Freakwave is making good progress with instruction's to my loader which I will upload when complete.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Alasdair Ryan