Ragnarök Now - Day Six

[CMP]

Canute, sorry if you are Einherjar, but this is a team win and this is the best way to go. I'm hesitant in lynching our blocker and you are the next best thing to test the theory (unless you can offer somebody who you think would be more likely to be a part of this "third faction").

I can't, because I don't believe this third faction even exists. I think it's the most insane theory I've heard in my life. I'm just hoping its believers will get a damn clue when I come up townie.

Thank you Cranebainn. Maybe we can finish off the Servants without a townie lynch today after all.

[Scubacarrot]

Actually, that's a good point, assuming he's town, which he's not. However, assuming the third scum team does exist, and Dragmall isn't one of them, it's the same damn outcome either way.

Apologies. Carl must have misinterpreted your bizarre theory somewhere along the way.

You do seem rather sure of the second team's existence. Surely you must be open to the idea that Dragmall is not one of them. You claim there's still five scum on the secret team. There's 11 people here. Tomorrow there will be ten. By your own logic, either

A) We lynch Petrus, Petrus is Town, Scum win.

B) We lynch Dragmall, Dragmall is Town, Scum win.

C) We lynch Petrus, Petrus is Scum, Dragmall's Scum team still exists, Scum win.

D) We lynch Dragmall, Dragmall is Scum, four scum left to kill off the power roles, with possibility of a conversion. Scum win.

The way Carl understands it, your own logic is telling us there's no way out. Might as well have some fun, then.

Again, apologies if this is incorrect, but Carl is starting to get a splitting headache from all this.

Talking to yourself, eh?

Seriously, Snotra, Carl does hope you will learn from this. Pretty much all you've done so far is attack people of both alignments for the mildest of infractions, real or otherwise. You've made no discernible effort to truly help us, you've tried to blackmail people into telling you what they know, you've made some very frenetic and off-the-wall accusations, and you've been very aggressive and antagonistic this whole time.

Your company is not particularly enjoyable and, looking at how you interact with others, Carl understands why you have not been let into the town block. What honest, Tohstre-fearing Townie would want to put up with this?

If Carl weren't so sure of Petrus, Carl would be willing to lynch you just to silence you for good.

It's absolutely incorrect, don't play dumber than you already look now. And you are just spewing lies now. You can't be sure of Petrus because your only evidence is the word of a dead scum, you can't get anyone lynched because you don't participate. You suck.

unvote:Dragmall(Dragonator)

I cannot make there being five scum left add up. If Petrus is town and Dragmall not, it still won't be the end of the world.

vote:petrus

I't s funny because that vote is not the right way. And it's very possible it IS the end of the world. Tell me: Why does Dragmall INSIST of lynching Petrus? Why not wait a day so we can test the very plausible theory? Because he would win this way, that is why.

Why has Canute not said more than a few words and is now gloating all around? Because he is SO close.

I have provided answers and responded to everything. I admit to not knowing all the details, but the theory fits. It's worth testing, and it's not worth following Dragmall blindly when there is a chance we instantly lose!

[Scouty]

I can't, because I don't believe this third faction even exists. I think it's the most insane theory I've heard in my life. I'm just hoping its believers will get a damn clue when I come up townie.

Thank you Cranebainn. Maybe we can finish off the Servants without a townie lynch today after all.

It is insane and I am having the greatest difficulty in believing it completely, but I think we should at least be open to it. Your denying it completely is only making it more likely that you actually are from some third faction.

I urge you, if you are truly Einherjar, to not tunnel vision and be open. For gods' sake, be open to the possibility.

[Scubacarrot]

By the way, best scum? it is not even any of you, It's Dagrun, even with her misjudgement of Wary, she was still way more competent than any of you.

[CMP]

Why has Canute not said more than a few words and is now gloating all around? Because he is SO close.

Well, duh. We're pretty sure Petrus is the last scum, how much closer could we come than that?

[Scubacarrot]

No you are not gloating at Petrus, you are gloating at ME. That's the big difference dude.

A very important difference.

[CMP]

It is insane and I am having the greatest difficulty in believing it completely, but I think we should at least be open to it. Your denying it completely is only making it more likely that you actually are from some third faction.

I urge you, if you are truly Einherjar, to not tunnel vision and be open. For gods' sake, be open to the possibility.

I have examined it, thoroughly, and yet I still can't come to the conclusion that it's possible.

[Scubacarrot]

I have examined it, thoroughly, and yet I still can't come to the conclusion that it's possible.

Why not?

[Rick]

Both of you guys have produced the extremes, I won't say which is more truer than the other, it's time to compromise on this and get away from the extremes (Snotra, Dragmall's theories is not absurd, and Dragmall, there's at least some basis in their theories that, by now, we should test it).

Thanks for being so open-minded about it.

Unvote: Dragmall (Dragonator)

Vote: Canute Grey-Bush (CallMePie)

I cannot make there being five scum left add up. If Petrus is town and Dragmall not, it still won't be the end of the world.

Why can't you make it add up?

They only started the day so confident because they thought it would be the end of the world... for us Einherjar.

[Scouty]

I don't care if you think it's absolutely true or if it's wrong in every single way. Let's just test BOTH theories so that we're ALL happy.

Refusal to do otherwise is just ignorance of the highest regard.

[Scubacarrot]

I don't care if you think it's absolutely true or if it's wrong in every single way. Let's just test BOTH theories so that we're ALL happy.

Refusal to do otherwise is just ignorance Scumminess of the highest regard.

Fixed that for ya.

[CMP]

Wary got a PM saying he was to be converted to the Servants, by two Servants. Rather than contacting them, since killing the other identical scum team isn't in the role PM unless Snotra suggests Odin' blatantly lying, we block the conversion that wouldn't have worked in the first place because he's already scum, and kill Dagrun, rather than making contact so that we could have two kills, a conversion, and 7 people on our scum team.

Does nobody see any problem there????

Furthermore, and most damning at all, if this theory were true, the scum would've won Day Five, because there were 9 Servants alive at the time and only 7 townies.

How much more clear could I get about how implausible this is???

If you seriously for whatever reason believe in this theory, vote for me. It's that simple. I'm just trying to explain why it doesn't make any sense to me.

[Scouty]

Fixed that for ya.

That was very unnecessary.

[Scubacarrot]

No one said they could/have merged. Well, Rurik suggested that, but I don't think so. And you got your numbers all turned around.

As said before and you have ignored, Why would Odin be lying? I don't see no Role PM here, do you? The only thing not mentioned and is the only (plausible) explanation for Dagrun saying they NEEDED dragmall dead (which you haven't responded to kiddo), was that the leaders of the individual scum teams (again, no third party, nobody mentioned that, just two scum teams, and no, you are not the most important scum team, so no third party, get it?) somehow competed. Notice how, you can deny it all you want, but it's true: Hervi basically got Gerrid lynched.

I think there are either 5 or 4 scum still alive.

Here's how I think the numbers are: Two teams, either 4 or 5 people each, there are 6 scum dead and 4 or 5 still walking. We know there is a conversion (again, I think the two part was bluff) possibility, so it's fairly reasonable this way.

And no, how would scum have won on day five? Yesterday two were killed, Dagrun and Beorn, how do you get to 9?

I still see no reason why it's impossible.

That was very unnecessary.

Sorry dude.

So this is the last I will say about it, I am going to bed now. When I wake up, we will have lost then, I guess.

Let's hope people see reason. Goodnight. (not you scummy people, you know who you are, you can die in a fire)

[CMP]

No one said they could/have merged. Well, Rurik suggested that, but I don't think so. And you got your numbers all turned around.

They didn't have to. Your theory revolves around that there's two different factions of the same scum team. Their win condition is to outnumber townies. If we follow your theory, we already did.

As said before and you have ignored, Why would Odin be lying? I don't see no Role PM here, do you? The only thing not mentioned and is the only (plausible) explanation for Dagrun saying they NEEDED dragmall dead (which you haven't responded to kiddo), was that the leaders of the individual scum teams (again, no third party, nobody mentioned that, just two scum teams, and no, you are not the most important scum team, so no third party, get it?) somehow competed. Notice how, you can deny it all you want, but it's true: Hervi basically got Gerrid lynched.

In the rules, it says the Servant's goal is to outnumber numbers. They didn't need Dragmall dead unless Odin is lying and the Servants have some other win condition. We all know Hervi got Gerrid lynch, what the hell does that have to do with anything?

I think there are either 5 or 4 scum still alive.

Were that true, they would have won on Day Five, were you listening? It was in a big, bold voice and everything.

Here's how I think the numbers are: Two teams, either 4 or 5 people each, there are 6 scum dead and 4 or 5 still walking. We know there is a conversion (again, I think the two part was bluff) possibility, so it's fairly reasonable this way.

See above.

And no, how would scum have won on day five? Yesterday two were killed, Dagrun and Beorn, how do you get to 9?

I still see no reason why it's impossible.

I'm talking about Day Five, when they were still alive.

Day Five. Numbers, according to your theory, were this.

Dragmall

Canute

Carl

Wary

Wilhalm

Dagrun

Beorn

I forgot your theory assumes Petrus is townie, so it's

Sveinn

Cranebainn

Rurik

Snotra

Patrekr

Petrus

So, I got my numbers wrong, but I'm still right.

If your theory is true, they were already outnumbered, the game should've ended by default. Even though you were seemingly able to gain the majority again, the rules state the game would've ended at that point.

[Scubacarrot]

I said I was not going to respond anymore. But megabluck it. Just megabluck it. You can't be that dumb. You just can't. I don't think Odin's lying, I think he's leaving stuff out. use your megablocking brain. Of course the two factions are not the SAME faction, they might be called the same to the outside, like you might call multiple factions a gang, for instance. Be reasonable, of course only one of the two scum teams can win.

Can you servants at least grant me a last wish, I've always wanted to see Lutetia...

[CMP]

I said I was not going to respond anymore. But megabluck it. Just megabluck it. You can't be that dumb. You just can't. I don't think Odin's lying, I think he's leaving stuff out. use your megablocking brain. Of course the two factions are not the SAME faction, they might be called the same to the outside, like you might call multiple factions a gang, for instance. Be reasonable, of course only one of the two scum teams can win.

So according to your theory, when I'm lynched, I'm going to be part of a second scum faction?

If you manage to convince one more person of your theory, you're in for a shocker tomorrow.

[Scubacarrot]

So according to your theory, when I'm lynched, I'm going to be part of a second scum faction?

If you manage to convince one more person of your theory, you're in for a shocker tomorrow.

Uhm what?

I honestly did not understand that.

[CMP]

Uhm what?

I honestly did not understand that.

You changed your theory. At first you're said there's two different rival groups of the Servants, now you're saying we're an entirely different faction.

Whatever it takes to fit Dragmall being anti-townie, I guess.

[Scubacarrot]

I think what you meant was do I think you will come up as something differently than Servant of Loki? No, of course not.

No that's not what I said at all, they are two scum teams, but different teams. I never said anything differently.

Think of this thing called Prison Riot, it's pretty good, there was this one guy that was a total jackass, but it was pretty cool! It's a bard's song, of course.

There were multiple teams of scum.

In this situation I think there are too, but differently. And that is the twist to this game.

[CMP]

I think what you meant was do I think you will come up as something differently than Servant of Loki? No, of course not.

No that's not what I said at all, they are two scum teams, but different teams. I never said anything differently.

Think of this thing called Prison Riot, it's pretty good, there was this one guy that was a total jackass, but it was pretty cool! It's a bard's song, of course.

There were multiple teams of scum.

In this situation I think there are too, but differently. And that is the twist to this game.

You're comparing this to the Prison Riot Ode. Now I understand completely.

Alright, so, we're two completely different teams of scum, but we have the exact same name, yet different agendas because we didn't win on Day Five. We're supposed to kill the leader of the other identical rival scum faction, in addition to outnumbering the townies. The leaders turn out to be Hervi and Dragmall.

Hervi.

And Dragmall.

Both leaders of scum factions striving above all else to kill one another. And over the course of 6 days and 15 murders, every single one of Dragmall's faction has remained alive.

Every single one has a night action. Not one has died. So while one cloaked figure has been conveniently having every victim come up townie, the other has been pegging out both townies and the opposing Servants of Loki.

In addition, let's take what Dragmall has said into account. The confirmed townie night actions we have are the inventor, the protector, an investigator nigh-on useless because of the huge amount of scum and the fact that the scum teams are identical in every way but their members, and a vigilante.

Against one six-person scum team with a killer and a conversion. And against another five-person scum team made up entirely of power roles that the town just so happens to have a lack of.

And this is your theory, right?

[Scouty]

Here's another scenario, just for speculation sake, yeah?

We lynch CMP and Petrus is killed at night.

CMP comes up as town and Petrus comes up as scum. The game doesn't end still, so what do we do? Well, we can look at Wary, who could be the SK, though it's also very likely that he is the vigilante, too. Another option would be to lynch Snotra/Rurik because of their defending of Petrus a now confirmed scum.

Now then, what do Snotra and Rurik have to gain by lynching Dragmall, Canute, or company? Are they their own faction or are they just misled Einherjar? The point is that they did not want Petrus lynched. But why would they want to prevent a scum's lynch? To preserve numbers to win the next day? Is that why they are pushing so hard today to lynch anybody but Petrus? It is really they who are the third faction/whatever, and being so close, they go on the offensive to turn over whatever Dragmall does. I actually thought of this possibility in the beginning of the argument.

This is pure speculation, but it offers a scenario we have not really looked at yet that should be.

Thoughts?

Also, comparing this to Prison riot doesn't work so well because in Prison riot everybody was scum, except 'ol Odin here.

[Scubacarrot]

You're comparing this to the Prison Riot Ode. Now I understand completely.

Alright, so, we're two completely different teams of scum, but we have the exact same name, yet different agendas because we didn't win on Day Five. We're supposed to kill the leader of the other identical rival scum faction, in addition to outnumbering the townies. The leaders turn out to be Hervi and Dragmall.

Hervi.

And Dragmall.

Both leaders of scum factions striving above all else to kill one another. And over the course of 6 days and 15 murders, every single one of Dragmall's faction has remained alive.

Every single one has a night action. Not one has died. So while one cloaked figure has been conveniently having every victim come up townie, the other has been pegging out both townies and the opposing Servants of Loki.

In addition, let's take what Dragmall has said into account. The confirmed townie night actions we have are the inventor, the protector, an investigator nigh-on useless because of the huge amount of scum and the fact that the scum teams are identical in every way but their members, and a vigilante.

Against one six-person scum team with a killer and a conversion. And against another five-person scum team made up entirely of power roles that the town just so happens to have a lack of.

And this is your theory, right?

I think the leaders are Dagrun and Dragmall, their main goal is to win, not to kill each other, and I think at one point they decided it's best, to not implicate their own team, to not pay that much attention to each other (Hervi-Dragmall agreement). Everyone having a night action seems very plausible, although I would not know. Dagrun mentioned switching of actions, I imagine Dragmall's group does something similair. I think it's very possible your group has had casualties too, I never said they didn't. I actively suggested Gerrid for instance was part of your group. Bergulf's action becomes much more interesting with this taken into account. You know very well what I meant, but you don't really care, the day last for a few more hours, doubt something will change.

[CMP]

See, that theory's reasonable.

I really, really doubt there's a third faction, but if the game doesn't end at that point, then I suppose there's not really another explanation except that Snotra and Rurik are anti-townie. Today is just a great example of that. I can't imagine they would try this hard to get one of us lynched unless they're obvious anti-townie or they're positive we're scum. I suppose if the evidence points to the scum being eliminated, we can turn our attention to Wary, but I agree that they should be checked on tonight.

[Pandora]

Look, it's either Petrus is the last scum or it's the biggest, most elaborate conspiracy to ever grace these halls.

It's the biggest, most elaborate conspiracy to ever grace these hall.

I'm town, I've not been converted, Dragmall is scum.

How is it plausible!? It is based on nothing and makes an atrocity of game mechanics!!

It really doesn't make an 'atrocity of the game mechanics', I'll explain further down.

Servants have one win condition, and it's not to mess around with another conveniently completely identical scum team, it's to outnumber the town.

Yup, it's stated that the Servants have to outnumber the Einherjar, but that does not exclude the possibility that there are two groups of Servants who didn't/don't know each other. Read back to my post earlier today; two scum factions, both serving Loki, but not knowing who each other are? There's a high chance they'd end up taking each other out, rather than us Einherjar.

This crap is starting to bore me.

So trying to figure out what's been going on is boring?

So the Servants started with 11 people in a 26 person game? They only had to kill 4 townies by those odds and not kill each other to win right there?

No, the servants started with probably two teams of five with maybe one possibility for conversion. And one group of servants is likely to have been completely unaware of the other until a couple of days in. Thus lynching scummy looking (presumed) townies to them yields eventually a scum death and pennies start to drop. It's all completely within the rules and the win conditions. They end up spending so much time trying to lynch each other for looking scummy that actually it ends up balanced.

I repeat, three factions is impossible. Read the rules.

......

Even more so actually, since the third party theory breaks the rules of the game.

No, it doesn't. Not if all the scum are servants, but the two teams don't/didn't know who each other were.

I have no intention of letting you lynch the wrong person today and potentially screwing the town over when we are so close to victory.

You have no guarantee Wary will kill Petrus. You have no guarantee he won't be converted without me to block them tonight.

You have no intention of having one of your scum-mates killed and pushing you further away from your scummy victory, you mean.

You have a vast number of 'town' roles at your disposal, if you want Wary to kill me you can make it happen if you so choose.

You're really think they're all that stupid? You really think they'd be so dumb as to completely ignore their own win condition and try to kill eachother, which Snotra's theory involves?

You think Dagrun would be so stupid as to reveal her supposed scum-mate to someone who was only partially converted, when there clearly was a possibility it might not be 'completed' given that apparently it wasn't completed?

If Petrus is town and Dragmall not, it still won't be the end of the world.

Sorry dude, but it kinda will.... Ragnarok and all that? Pretty much the definition of the end of the world right there.

I am town and Dragmall is not.

There's 11 people here. Tomorrow there will be ten. By your own logic, either

A) We lynch Petrus, Petrus is Town, Scum win.

B) We lynch Dragmall, Dragmall is Town, Scum win.

C) We lynch Petrus, Petrus is Scum, Dragmall's Scum team still exists, Scum win.

D) We lynch Dragmall, Dragmall is Scum, four scum left to kill off the power roles, with possibility of a conversion. Scum win.

Tomorrow there will be ten? No kill tonight? Not even by Wary?

You forgot:

E) We lynch one of you scummies today to prove the theory, then Wary tomorrow to stop the killing, then the rest of you sequentially until the town win.

Although, actually if you lynch me there will be far more than one death tonight, so tomorrow there will be five. You five scummos.

Wary got a PM saying he was to be converted to the Servants, by two Servants.

So there are two Servants now? I thought Dragmall was saying he felt close to victory because I was the last scum? So is it one or two?

And this is the PM from Dagrun a proven scum and therefore naturally a wholly reliable source? You have to decide if you want to argue it from the perspective of there being one or two scum remaining, for consistency at least.

So a theory was bandied around about the possibility of scum stealing actions. I kinda find that interesting. We all know how Ragnar like twists, and I remember him going on an expedition a while back to Egypt. For some reason I have been thinking of that expedition throughout this ordeal, and I attributed that to the recurrence of the ascetic role. But (and I think I know about the Egypt expedition better than anyone here) the actual point of that expedition was to highlight the importance of those of us without night actions; vanillas. We saw someone running off with Gofraid's spear the night he was killed, and I have been saying for a while we must have been shown that for a reason, after all, there was no need for us to know. Except it is entirely possible that the scum do indeed steal roles, and there really aren't that many town roles, and quite a lot have been killed off (yes I still believe the remaining 'Town Block' with the exception of Cranebeinn and Sveinn are scum). But town wouldn't need that many roles, if there are two rival factions, and if those factions are looking for roles to steal. I think that's why Dragmall has been trying to lynch sheep - they are most likely to be vanilla townies, and the scum can only steal the action if they kill people at night. It would also explain why people with scummy scummy roles like Beorn the role-cop get an extra night to be 'tested' - or rather night killed and their role stolen, although unfortunately for Dragmall Beorn ended up being lynched instead. So here, vanilla townies are important, as the scum are less interested in killing them at night.

Anyway, that's all idle speculation and those of you who need to see the truth will probably think I've gone bonkers for saying it, but I just thought I would while I still have breath in my body.

Here's a plan:

We lynch Cunute, not really caring much what his allegiance is (with one scum remaining according to Dragmall there are townies to spare, and the same if we listen to Cunute that there are two scum remaining, still there's leeway, surely) and you have Wary kill me tonight. And to make sure Wary doesn't get 'converted' Dragmall the scummiest of scum can 'block' me. And to make sure the kill goes through, Carl the 'watcher' can 'watch' Wary, and Sveinn, who we all agree (even Dragmall) is the town protector will promise faithfully not to protect me. So there's absolutely no reason for me not to be dead tomorrow, and you'll have the alignments of both me and Cunute to work with, and you'll all see who's telling the truth. Can't say fairer than that, right?

Everyone who agrees say: Vote: Canute Grey-Bush (CallMePie)