LEGO Castle 2013

[Mr. Elijah Timms]

I could be wrong... But it looks like there's several new heads/face prints in this theme. And that's a good thing.

[mpoh98]

These castle sets are alright, but seriously, Lego could do a lot better. I agree with Deathleech, I think this was aimed at younger age groups, who like the playability, and not tons of pieces to take time and build with. While us older, are on the other hand, I like lots of detail and pieces!

[GregoryBrick]

I recognize that many adult fans here prefer LotR but I think people are overstating how much LotR is intentionally aimed at AFOLs vs. these castle sets. The age range for LotR is 8-14 and Castle is 5-12 - I don't see how this small difference indicates anything about relevance to an adult audience. Has LEGO said anything about this?

[Flieger]

I would be interested to know that too... It is not like LotR would lack a clear good-vs-evil theme. On the contrary it even reinforces it as much with colour choices as Lego does in the castle lines (bright and shiny armour for the men and elves, dark and rusty for the orcs etc. Don't tell me any kid would think the Witch King passes as 'good' and Theoden as 'bad').

Sorry if my point wasn't very clear. I wasn't complaining about a lack of variety in GoT, but the size of the sets that would need to be made. Most are huge castles or outdoor landscapes which Lego really seems to struggle with when making into sets that fit certain price points. I mean look at LotR, even there they seem to have some trouble making sets that please fans. Mines of Moria, Attack of the Wargs, and Weathertop come to mind in particular because they are either ridiculously scaled down, or they only feature part of a location and don't feel "complete" to a lot of people. Most of GoT castles are as big as LotR ones or bigger, and a lot of stuff takes place outside (in forest or baren tundra/mountains). I mean sure Lego could make like a small tower, or a small piece of the great wall, but I think a lot of fans would feel let down.

I probably should have emphazied the different size of the sets, I do not think THAT would be a problem. I may take the upcoming line, comparing the size of its set to possible GoT-sets:

- 70400 Forest Ambush: could be easily done. Either multiple unnamed characters to work as battle pack or with named characters, e.g. Brienne and Jamie ambushed.

-70401 Gold Getaway: again, easily done. Yoren’s Black Watch recruit cart, or a queen’s carriage etc.

-70402 The Gatehouse Raid: could be one of the Waycastles on the Eyrie, or the Horse Gate of Vaes Dothrak, or a small tavern along a road

-70403 Dragon Mountain: the mountain where Jon and Ghost found the Dragonglass hoard, or the funeral pyre of Khal Drogo

- 70404 King's Castle: just pick on the 1000 castles...

Add to it:

- Davos with Mellisandre in a boat heading for the small sea cavern below Storm's End

- any war galley or long boat or transport for a ship themed set

- a tourney ground akin to Kingdom’s joust

Etc...

All of them are to scale, as far as Lego scale is concerned, and better fitting than many of the LotR-sets.

Then add in the fact the theme is so dark and it's pretty much a given Lego will never do a GoT theme.

The TV show made it overly dark, but yes the content of the books is pretty mature. And as usual it seems no one cares when men and orcs are slain in most gruesome ways (something that IS reenacted with Lego), but when there is a single female breast bared or more... (something certainly NOT reenacted with Lego). GRR Martin himself complained about that hypocrisy.

Indeed I also don't think it will be a Lego line, but the possibilities for nice sets would be endless.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Flieger

[Deathleech]

The TV show made it overly dark, but yes the content of the books is pretty mature. And as usual it seems no one cares when men and orcs are slain in most gruesome ways (something that IS reenacted with Lego), but when there is a single female breast bared or more... (something certainly NOT reenacted with Lego). GRR Martin himself complained about that hypocrisy.

Indeed I also don't think it will be a Lego line, but the possibilities for nice sets would be endless.

Even the GoT episodes that show no nudity or sex are still rated MA. Lord of the Rings is only PG-13. Maybe a single breast isn't that bad, but rampant incest, sex, maiming, and rape are a little much for Lego's target audience. Add in all the other violence and ya, GoT will never ever be a theme Lego picks up. LotR on the other hand only has some killing, which at it's worst is still pretty tame compared to the stuff that happens in GoT.

As for your 2013 Castle/GoT set comparisons, I think that kind of demonstrates another point. If I am going to buy a GoT based set I want it to depict something fun and exciting that is distinct from the show, I don't want a mundane cart with GoT minifigures, or a bunch of GoT minifigures and a small tree. That;s exactly what you did too, you took a Lego set and removed the generic characters and put in GoT characters. I mean those are little more than glorified figure packs. Sure they could make anything from GoT into a set that fills any price point, but that's doesn't mean it's very interesting. This is almost something I think then Lego designers have had trouble doing with LotR too, there are tons of places to make sets out of but most of the interesting and distinct ones require huge $100+ sets to do them justice.

[Flieger]

Most of my examples ARE key scenes in TV and the novels. How would the funeral pyre of Khal Drogo e.g. be a 'glorified figure pack'? It is a key scene, it has an interesting build with 'play' features (light up flames) and key characters. How could that not be something distinct from the show? Anyway if I may remind you: your point was a about GoT having only large sets. Do you still hold that opinion?

[Blakstone]

Flieger, I get the Game of Thrones would have as much variation as LotR for sets... perhaps even more due to much more hours of film to cover. However, the content of the show is such that LEGO would never do it.

Is there a chance that this conversation become its own topic to keep from bogging down the Castle 2013 thread? I want to get back to the "It's just for kids" "It could have been better" "What's up with those colors / heraldry designs?" "LEGO wants to kill the theme despite spending so much money on it" debates.

By the way, that is an awesome LEGO dragon.

[Flieger]

Flieger, I get the Game of Thrones would have as much variation as LotR for sets... perhaps even more due to much more hours of film to cover. However, the content of the show is such that LEGO would never do it.

I do not contest this particular notion.

I also agree that we might take this discussion elsewhere.

[Deathleech]

Most of my examples ARE key scenes in TV and the novels. How would the funeral pyre of Khal Drogo e.g. be a 'glorified figure pack'? It is a key scene, it has an interesting build with 'play' features (light up flames) and key characters. How could that not be something distinct from the show? Anyway if I may remind you: your point was a about GoT having only large sets. Do you still hold that opinion?

Yes I do still hold that opinion. Just look at the first season centering around Daenerys, she is wandering around the middle of the desert with the Dothraki. How is Lego going to make sets out of this, or the Nights Watch when they head north? Are they going to make tents with minifigures and that's it? Of course like you point out, Lego could do tons of smaller sets, I just don't think they would be that interesting. No offense, but most of what you are proposing is just existing Castle sets with characters from Game of Thrones instead of generic castle figures. I don't really want a Black Watch recruit cart or forest ambush because the actual builds aren't that interesting or different from what we currently get in the Castle theme, just the minifigures would be different. A tourney ground with King Robert and Loras Tyrell vs The Mountain is basically just the joust set with the generic knights and king replaced.

More interesting sets that are actually distinct to Game of Thrones would be ones like the Godswood tree or the pyre like you mentioned. THESE would be smaller sets that interest me. Unfortunately I don't think there are enough of them, or at least not enough appropriate ones. If Lego were ever to pay the money for a theme I feel it should offer something really new and unique for Lego to create sets based on, not generic locations and settings. Otherwise why bother even getting the license? That's just my opinion. Of course this is totally a moot point since Lego will never buy the license for other reasons.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Deathleech

[Drachmyre]

A buck naked Daenerys minifig... Err. I don't think they would ever go near GoT. It's just TOO adult of content.

[Flieger]

Yes I do still hold that opinion. Just look at the first season centering around Daenerys, she is wandering around the middle of the desert with the Dothraki. How is Lego going to make sets out of this, or the Nights Watch when they head north? Are they going to make tents with minifigures and that's it?

It worked for the Lone Ranger (Comanche Camp), even though I have to agree that this is not terribly appealing. What would be possible would be a larger tent with detailed inside build to allow the eating of the heart scene. Anyway with the first season gone one can go for sets from the other seasons...

The Black Watch recruit cart would not be unique build e.g., but again: was Gandal's Arrival any more than a cart with Gandalf and Frodo? More important: in case of the Horse Gate, and most other buildings and the ships you would have your unique to GoT builds. Sure you may find some of these proposals boring. That may have something to do with the fact that I am a historian, not a professional set designer My only point is that GoT offers far more than just giant castles or wide landscapes. I think a professional should be capable of working out sets in all sizes to match your criteria.

A buck naked Daenerys minifig... Err. I don't think they would ever go near GoT. It's just TOO adult of content.

This has come to attention already.

[Carousel]

Whilst I love Game of Thrones dearly, you're frankly wasting your time even considering for a single second that Lego would ever consider going near the whole franchise. As pointed out before, GoT has quite a bit of sex, incest, and violence, so do you really think it's suitable for Lego's target audience of 8-12 year olds? This topic is for discussing the somewhat mediocre new Castle sets, not dreaming about impossible Lego licenses.

[Aanchir]

I recognize that many adult fans here prefer LotR but I think people are overstating how much LotR is intentionally aimed at AFOLs vs. these castle sets. The age range for LotR is 8-14 and Castle is 5-12 - I don't see how this small difference indicates anything about relevance to an adult audience. Has LEGO said anything about this?

I agree with this. Far too often I see people claim themes that AFOLs happen to like are targeted at them and themes they don't happen to like are targeted at kids.

In reality, a key reason the LotR theme has more AFOL appeal than this Castle theme is simply that it's based on a body of work (in this case, the Lord of the Rings films) that are targeted more toward adults than kids. Hence, lots of earth tones, epic medieval-fantasy architecture, and minifigures with high-detail designs. But the sets are still aimed at kids to a great extent; they simply may not sell as effectively to younger kids as more brightly-colored, less franchise-specific castle designs.

These castle sets don't have a license tying them down, and thus they can be designed with more simple, iconic castle traits in mind. A portcullis and drawbridge. A rectangular walled area with towers arranged around it. An evil, black-and-red tower. Now, there is a difference in target age range, but not a huge one. Kids are still the core audience for both themes; AFOLs are a secondary but not insignificant consideration for both themes.

Now, personally, I anxiously await more pictures of the King's Castle, and of course a thorough review. I don't know what kind of interior details to expect, but I really think some people might be surprised to see that it's not just a bunch of prefab wall segments. I find the gatehouse of 70404 is quite stunning in its detail and imposing geometry, easily measuring up to its counterpart in Kingdoms. The basic walls, too, have a comparable level of complexity. The only part of the new castle that I find substantially weaker than its Kingdoms counterpart is the merlons atop the octagonal towers. Four merlons are hardly sufficient for a tower of that size, and I feel the six smaller merlons atop the Kingdoms castle were more effective. Now, the four merlons work more effectively on the new castle atop the tower that includes the throne room and treasure chamber, since they use slope elements rather than simple 1x2 bricks. I wish this motif were repeated on the other octagonal towers.

On a side note, looking at the high-resolution picture of the new King's Castle once again, has anyone noticed there appears to be a somewhat unusual function connected to the catapult on the front corner tower of the castle? Instead of using a simple lever mechanism like most catapults, where you press down on one side of the catapult to launch things from the other side, this has a mechanism built into the tower itself. I'm curious how effective it will be. It is certainly not how I would contemplate building a LEGO catapult.

[GregoryBrick]

On a side note, looking at the high-resolution picture of the new King's Castle once again, has anyone noticed there appears to be a somewhat unusual function connected to the catapult on the front corner tower of the castle? Instead of using a simple lever mechanism like most catapults, where you press down on one side of the catapult to launch things from the other side, this has a mechanism built into the tower itself. I'm curious how effective it will be. It is certainly not how I would contemplate building a LEGO catapult.

Yes, I noticed this too. I would like to see the mechanism.

Viz. the prefab walls on the King's Castle, I also see that a number of sections are brickbuilt, incorporating some detail (you can see this easily on the large image).

Edited May 3, 2013 by GregoryBrick

[Deathleech]

I agree with this. Far too often I see people claim themes that AFOLs happen to like are targeted at them and themes they don't happen to like are targeted at kids.

If this theme isn't targeted solely at kids that means Lego failed big time with it. If these sets don't really appeal to most AFOLs then that means either one of two things happened. A) Lego did a really poor job of making these sets appeal to AFOLS or B) they weren't intended for AFOLS in the first place and were aimed more at kids. If you read through this thread it seems the vast majority of people(AFOLS) are not a fan of these sets so which seems more likely?

To me these sets seem like they are clearly aimed at the younger crowd. They have extremely bright colors with their reds, blues, and green (even more so than past castle themes, look at the blue on the Lions compared to say the darker blue on the Black Falcons). The blue is almost like a slightly darker sky blue and is super saturated. Then there is the amount of detail which seems much lower in the Castle theme. The King's Castle has a detail brick at the base, the large slopes on the sides, and then a few bricks at the top but for the vast majority of the wall section it is made up a single molded piece. Sure some wall sections are all brick built, like the exploding wall piece or ones that have different window shapes, but a lot seem to use the single molded piece. The towers are only made up of two pieces per section not including the top or bottom or windows. Compare that to Helm's Deep which literally uses bricks for the entire build with no large pieces other than the base and single slim tower, and it's easy to see the amount of detail difference between the two. Just compare the hi-res pictures of Helm's Deep to that of the King's Castle and the level of detail is not even in the same ball park...

As for the age recommendations, I never really took them to seriously. They are just recommendations after all. Tons of AFOLS buy themes like City, SW, LotR, etc. and they are 20+ year old people despite most of these sets being listed in the 6-14 age range. 5-12 vs 8-14 is a pretty big gap though. That's a difference of 5 years. Add in Orthanc which is listed as 14+ and ya, I think that is a fairly significant difference only further showing LotR is aimed more at adults/AFOLs then your normal Lego set. Also remember the LotR films are rated PG-13 and do have some violence that can get somewhat graphic with orc heads and limbs getting chopped off (though not near as bad as some of the stuff in Game of Thrones). Unlike the Lego age recommendations, I think movie ones hold a little more weight. The absolute top age rating for the LotR sets is the minimum age recommendation to see the films they are based on.

Now, with all that said I DO think LotR is still marketed towards kids. Look at all the launching pieces, completely random catapults and flick fire missiles (in Weathertop... really?), and exploding parts in the sets. I just think it also has a large AFOL following and Lego knows that so they try to make the sets also appeal to them a little more than they otherwise would with a different line. All Lego sets are marketed towards younger kids, but this Castle theme seems soleyl marketed towards them while LotR seems marketed towards young kids, slightly older kids and AFOLS with the emphasis still on kids.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Deathleech

[bekindsorewind]

Has anybody noticed TRU.com removed the Castle sets? I can't find them anymore, not even via searching.

[SonofTheShire]

How would the funeral pyre of Khal Drogo e.g. be a 'glorified figure pack'? It is a key scene, it has an interesting build with 'play' features (light up flames) and key characters. How could that not be something distinct from the show?

And what kid wouldn't want to recreate the cremation of Khal Drogo?

[just2good]

Has anybody noticed TRU.com removed the Castle sets? I can't find them anymore, not even via searching.

I have the web IDs for them, so you can bring it to the store and ask if they have any in the area. If anyone wants 'em, shoot me a PM!

[The_Creator]

Glad to see the off-topic GoT talk has finally stoped…

As far as comparing Castle to LotR/The Hobbit, I see no comparison. Castle is clearly aimed at KfoLs and LotR is clearly made to appease all ages, although more so TfoLs and AfoLs.

[StephanSz]

I don't understand all the negative talk about this catle line. It's great! Going to buy the whole theme for sure. I just love the castle, with the blue pieces. Brings back the memories of my first castle 6080.

[Flieger]

Having no nostalgic feelings about this castle line, my reasons to like it are a) the very stereotype but in that stereotype extremely well executed baddies, who represent evil a lot better than the previous Dragon Knights, and b) the impressive architecture considering the low piece count. That goes for the Gatehouse as well as the Dragon Mountain, both having comparatively few pieces but offer intresting buildings. Although these are clearly an evolution of their previous incarnations, it is an evolution to the better. As an adult, the big castle does not appeal to me but I know my younger self would have loved it (and replaced the lion with the falcons soon). And of course that is what counts unless one thinks afols would matter somehow - visiting Lego-stores from time to time and actually noticing the people shopping there may cure that easily. That is why LotR and Star Wars are perfect licenses, they feature kid friendly good-vs-evil story in rather simple terms, although they do so in masterful language and/or imagery. (Which is yet another reason for never having the fantasy line I wish for - and before smart people point that out for the 100th time: yes, it is too adult. I hope you can spare me your jests on that from now on, ok? ).

One could of course argue whether kids really need this clear-cut good vs evil-theme. I grew up with the Falcons and early Lions, and from my point of view the lions were the evil ones. Lego at that time - having only one smily face and noble heraldry for both - allowed me to make that choice. It did not with the Wolfpack, whose faces struck me as scruffy and evil. But the more themes came, the clearer became the distinction between good and evil, and I wonder if that is necessary. Also, why could'nt the Dragon be the sigil of a good faction? One of the greatest medieval heros ever, Arthur, sported a dragon. Is the lion ever good because Denmark's coat of arms includes lions, or because of Richard Lionheart? Black is an obvious choice for the baddies, though.

[gedren_y]

My nostalgic feelings come from remembering Royal Knights. Despite this, I see this as being Fantasy Era 2.

I am so baffled by AFOLs who still focus on the TLG provided designs. While I have extolled the virtues of this line when compared to previous iterations, these sets are always going to be simplistic. Yes, the lion heraldry makes me nostalgic, but what's important for me here is the parts.

I will probably build the sets as depicted once (minus any stickers). I do this to see if any part of the provided designs could be adapted for use elsewhere. If I like a piece of a set, I strip away everything else and leave it intact for testing with my existing builds. With this line, there are some structures that I see in the pics that look adaptable. I do this with non-Castle sets to adapt for Castle, e.g. the Legends of Chima sets.

This Castle line gives us so many useful parts to create so many wonderful new designs. What's not to love?

[Faefrost]

And what kid wouldn't want to recreate the cremation of Khal Drogo?

New target market? Disturbed creepy kids who like fire?

[Flieger]

This Castle line gives us so many useful parts to create so many wonderful new designs. What's not to love?

Indeed, for me it is the new pointy sword in gold I must have.

Glad to see the off-topic GoT talk has finally stoped…

Yes, totally. But are you sure people have realized already that it might be a too adult theme? Obviously some savvy people feel the need to repeat that over and over again...

[Rogue Angel]

Gedren brings up an interesting point. I am always drawn to better looking sets (MMP, Joust) but I'm probably only going to build it once and then just use the pieces for MOCs. This is different with licensed themes, where I will never disassemble The Falcon or Orthanc, but in terms of castle, I put a pretty high value on looks, when it really shouldn't matter that much to me. I do make decisions based on figs but piece count should be playing more of a role.

In regards to GoT, this is not a kid's show. End of discussion. It's like discussing a a soprano's theme or Band of Brothers Legos. Lego makes toys for kids. They may cater to adults at times, but they are always targeting kids. You could argue that Architecture is more adult oriented, but it still has kid's appeal. Cusoo could be an option except for the R/MA rating, so it would never happen.