Heartlake Heartbreak - Day Three: Don't Ask Me Why

[Dannylonglegs]

Dansmith, it's also possible it's all megablocks and he's meatshielded Matilda to get us to believe he's the psychiatrist when there isn't even a megablocking Cult.

Sorry, hedgehogs are notoriously randomly hot-headed.

I'm starting to agree with you, as I stated before your long post. But, like anything else, would we be better to just know now if it's even real or not??

Meep. I'm scared. I do think knowing is half the battle, but what if Shadell's the other half?

[JimBee]

I used my night investigation on the second person and discovered that they were town by process of elimination, not a direct town result. This is where I explained things poorly to Oscar and what seems to have caused a lot of the confusion. I "got a town result" because I already knew the second person couldn't be scum if the first was a hider and now I knew they weren't in the cult.

Alright, Shadell, you've made sense so far, except for this. You used your "investigation" on the second person? I don't get how this would work. I thought you said that you figured the second person wasn't scum, because the hider was hiding behind him/her, which would make sense. But you used your investigation on the second person? I don't follow.

What also bothers me is the fact that you are apparently the only thing that can stop the cult leader apart from a random lynch. And both are apparently unkillable, unblockable, and no one can hide from them? Doesn't that seem... unfair or far-fetched to anyone? While I don't deny the possibility of this, I do find it unlikely. And then there's the fact of two bulletproof vests out there...

I think I agree with Dansmith here, though, we risk losing a lot more lynching Shadell today than later. I'd be more comfortable voting for someone like Katie or Dave, waiting for Matilda's alignment tomorrow, then deciding to lynch Shadell based on that. Shadell could have been using Matilda as a meat shield, yes, but likely? I think not. If Matilda turns up town tomorrow then I will be voting for Shadell.

[Hinckley]

Bunsen investigated Matilda and got a Scum result. The only way Shadell is Scum if it's a meatshield and yes I would believe she would do that. That has to be the only way. The Scum wouldn't give themselves away so easily. Why would the Scum come up with a ruse that gave away three of them???

And Shadell could still be a cult member herself. Sorry, Shadell. It's true. Look at it from our perspective. I don't think it'd be stupid to lynch you.

But, Jimmy has a good point. If the Hider is like the one on that website that Daisy hates then Shadell should've already had a result on Bunsen and Beeker. If Beeker's a Hider, and he hid behind Bunsen and Shadell investigated Beeker, he should've gotten results on both on Night One. That's where I'm confused right now. It is convenient to not be able to be blocked, jailed or hidden from. That hidden from is the one that is striking me as odd right now. That's highly convenient and really really odd. By definition the Hider causes the Action targeting him to get the results on both people. Why would Shadell's role prevent that? Hider is supposed to benefit the Town in that it investigates or protects two targets. Why would the psychiatrist be immune to that??

Am I misunderstanding something, Shadell? Please don't call me stupid. I know you called the Town stupid earlier, but you have to admit it's really odd.

[Shadows]

Alright, Shadell, you've made sense so far, except for this. You used your "investigation" on the second person? I don't get how this would work. I thought you said that you figured the second person wasn't scum, because the hider was hiding behind him/her, which would make sense. But you used your investigation on the second person? I don't follow.

My investigation is to find the cult leader, so using it on them was the easiest way to confirm them as town and therefore make their claims believable. I'm not sure I'm understanding the question, so if this doesn't answer you, please ask again.

What also bothers me is the fact that you are apparently the only thing that can stop the cult leader apart from a random lynch. And both are apparently unkillable, unblockable, and no one can hide from them? Doesn't that seem... unfair or far-fetched to anyone? While I don't deny the possibility of this, I do find it unlikely. And then there's the fact of two bulletproof vests out there...

I don't know that the cult leader has the same qualities, I'm just assuming it. As for two vests, I told Oscar about mine before anyone ever openly claimed it, so I can only confirm that one exists. If two are suspicious, you'd have to look at the other one as actually being suspicious since it was revealed after mine. That said, I do actually believe it exists, I just wonder why. I understand why I was given one, I don't understand why another exists. This game of life seems to be full of mysteries.

[JimBee]

My investigation is to find the cult leader, so using it on them was the easiest way to confirm them as town and therefore make their claims believable. I'm not sure I'm understanding the question, so if this doesn't answer you, please ask again.

Alright, to confirm what you are saying: You investigated the hider and the person they were hiding behind, to confirm that they were not cult? Would that have been your result, "not cult"? And then you assumed that the hidee was not scum, because if they were the hider would have died. Is that correct?

I don't know that the cult leader has the same qualities, I'm just assuming it. As for two vests, I told Oscar about mine before anyone ever openly claimed it, so I can only confirm that one exists. If two are suspicious, you'd have to look at the other one as actually being suspicious since it was revealed after mine. That said, I do actually believe it exists, I just wonder why. I understand why I was given one, I don't understand why another exists. This game of life seems to be full of mysteries.

Well then, was the bulletproof vest a lunch, something someone gave to you, or part of your role to begin with?

[Hinckley]

I don't know that the cult leader has the same qualities, I'm just assuming it. As for two vests, I told Oscar about mine before anyone ever openly claimed it, so I can only confirm that one exists. If two are suspicious, you'd have to look at the other one as actually being suspicious since it was revealed after mine. That said, I do actually believe it exists, I just wonder why. I understand why I was given one, I don't understand why another exists. This game of life seems to be full of mysteries.

If you want to split hairs, I revealed it to others long before you revealed it to me.

[Shadows]

The only way Shadell is Scum if it's a meatshield and yes I would believe she would do that.

I don't actually meatshield, historically. Obviously this ventures into metagaming territory, but I don't believe in meatshielding except as a side effect of usurping. So, unless you want to speculate that Matilda was the scum boss and I created this entire scenario involving so many other people just to get her killed, it isn't possible. For that to work, everyone involved would have to be scum and willing to reveal themselves just to kill their own boss. That's even crazier sounding than my poor role.

But, Jimmy has a good point. If the Hider is like the one on that website that Daisy hates then Shadell should've already had a result on Bunsen and Beeker. If Beeker's a Hider, and he hid behind Bunsen and Shadell investigated Beeker, he should've gotten results on both on Night One. That's where I'm confused right now.

You need to read it again, you have it backwards, which is understandable because it isn't a role we commonly see here.

While Hiding, the Hider itself is considered an ineligible target for actions - all actions that target the Hider specifically will fail.

as opposed to

The Hider is treated like the target for all other roles' purposes - for instance, if the Hider's target gets investigated by a Cop, the Cop will get results on both the target AND the Hider. Alternatively, if the Hider's target gets killed overNight, the Hider will die too.

In other words, if I had investigated Bunsen, I would have also gotten results for Beaker as well, but by investigating Beaker, I only got his (and even that only works because my investigation can't be avoided, as opposed to a normal one that would have yielded no result). I still had to investigate Bunsen to get his result, which then told me he should be town and able to be trusted. We'll see that tomorrow with the results on Matilda.

Am I misunderstanding something, Shadell?

Yep, so I've explained again.

[Hinckley]

Thank you. That makes much more sense.

[Shadows]

Alright, to confirm what you are saying: You investigated the hider and the person they were hiding behind, to confirm that they were not cult? Would that have been your result, "not cult"? And then you assumed that the hidee was not scum, because if they were the hider would have died. Is that correct?

I knew the person hidden behind wasn't scum, my investigation told me the hider wasn't cult, and then investigated the person hidden behind to confirm the same thing, leaving both as town to me. I think that's what you're saying and it's definitely what I'm saying.

Well then, was the bulletproof vest a lunch, something someone gave to you, or part of your role to begin with?

It was mentioned at the same time as I was told I had forgotten my lunch as I rushed out. I consider it related to lunch since it seemed like not getting one was related to getting the vest. I was told I couldn't give it away or get rid of it, so it differs from lunch in that way as well. I had it from the beginning, it was not given to me.

If you want to split hairs, I revealed it to others long before you revealed it to me.

I have no way to know if that's true or not and I have to question why you would do such a thing, it doesn't seem particularly wise to talk about with people you couldn't know to trust so early.

[JimBee]

I knew the person hidden behind wasn't scum, my investigation told me the hider wasn't cult, and then investigated the person hidden behind to confirm the same thing, leaving both as town to me. I think that's what you're saying and it's definitely what I'm saying.

Yes, I wanted to confirm we were on the same page here.

It was mentioned at the same time as I was told I had forgotten my lunch as I rushed out. I consider it related to lunch since it seemed like not getting one was related to getting the vest. I was told I couldn't give it away or get rid of it, so it differs from lunch in that way as well. I had it from the beginning, it was not given to me.

Very strange... not much more to add to that, but it does seem incredibly overpowered.

[Hinckley]

I have no way to know if that's true or not and I have to question why you would do such a thing, it doesn't seem particularly wise to talk about with people you couldn't know to trust so early.

Like telling someone you're looking for a cult on Day Two?

I certainly don't mind spreading around the fact that I'm bulletproof. Hopefully keeps the Scum killer away so I can get some work done.

[Shadows]

Very strange... not much more to add to that, but it does seem incredibly overpowered.

It does have limited uses and it doesn't effect lynches, so it isn't too far off. Plus it's hard to judge anything based on what seems overpowered or unbalanced when we don't know all of the other factors involved. I'm still trying to figure out what the cult leader has available to them, it could be a case of two overpowered roles cancelling each other out. I just don't have any way to know.

Like telling someone you're looking for a cult on Day Two?

The difference is that by then, the people I told were people I knew weren't in it and even if they ended up scum (which I knew one couldn't be), they had as much reason to help me as the town, the cult is an equal threat to both in my eyes.

[fhomess]

I've made this point to someone in private, but I have serious misgivings about the presence of so many ways to avoid being killed by the scum. Think about it, we have a hider and two bulletproof vests. That means at least three people are able to avoid being killed based on their own abilities. In addition, we have a jailkeeper who was able to protect someone. Want to start thinking about investigations that we supposedly have? We have a day investigator who gives alignment. We have a hider who's ability to avoid being killed has the side effect of confirming everyone they hide behind. We have lunches that reveal info about people's roles. We have other lunches that let us see who is being targetted. We've supposedly got two people looking for their "bro", which would be a way of confirming each other. All of these roles must have some form of balance on the scum side. I would expect the scum to have some rather complicated ways of avoiding being killed themselves. Unfortunately, Shadell fits that model pretty well.

[Dragonator]

Everyone is confused so we must all be Scum. I would like to propose we do what we always do when tensions are high on the farm. Wet T-shirt pillow fight!!

Gets hose

Neigh I'm keen! Not htat I wear a shirt, but the water sure sounds nice and refreshing.

I'm of the opinion that Shadell is speaking the truth. I don't think a meatshield this early with one scum already down would be at all wise, and then there is the fact that she specifically indicated to Bunsen that he should investigate Matilda after she was seen targeting Bunsen by Beeker, and caught in a lie. That just isn't something I could see Scum-Shadell doing at all. I also highly doubt that the scum would have a Phsychiatrist, it just isn't a scum role. If anything, it would be a neutral role that reverts to town upon success of its mission, if it isn't town to begin with. If Bunsen is telling the truth and got an accurate result on Matilda, then I don't think Shadell is on the same side as Matilda. Therefore I would say she is town, as dubious as some her claim may seem at first. I have seen crazier things before, like investigators that compare two people and pranksters that cover furniture in tin-foil... such strangeness I have encountered in my long years as a mighty stallion! Neigh!

Did I also mention that Shadell has the most gorgeous apples?

[Hinckley]

Why again did the hider see Matilda targeting Bunsen?

[Dragonator]

Why again did the hider see Matilda targeting Bunsen?

Is there any reason why Beeker would not? We have no idea what variations God has given to the roles we play in life.

[Shadows]

Why again did the hider see Matilda targeting Bunsen?

I took it as them assuming Matilda was targeting Bunsen since they were all in the same place and Matilda couldn't be targeting them. I believe you confirmed that people see other people in their actions, didn't you?

Oh, and while I'm commenting, I will put this out there. If I am given the opportunity, I plan to investigate you tonight to clear up my only remaining doubts about you. I also find the existence of multiple vests to be suspicious, as would like to confirm that you aren't the cult leader, which seems like a fair concern given that similarity in our roles. I encourage anyone with the ability to watch or otherwise confirm my action to do so and report back tomorrow. Assuming I'm given that opportunity, of course.

[Darkdragon]

You May Now Vote

With 20 players remaining, a majority of 11 is required for a conviction.

There are 48 hours left in the day.

[Dragonator]

Hmmm, neigh.

Well I'm not keen on voting out Shadell, so let's explore some other options. Wasn't someone else caught lying earlier today? That seems to have been glossed over somewhat.

[Scubacarrot]

Mine was from a ham sandwich as well...

I had a can of peaches, others had a banana, doesn't particuarly mean anything.

I have no way to know if that's true or not and I have to question why you would do such a thing, it doesn't seem particularly wise to talk about with people you couldn't know to trust so early.

I can confirm it.

Oh, and while I'm commenting, I will put this out there. If I am given the opportunity, I plan to investigate you tonight to clear up my only remaining doubts about you. I also find the existence of multiple vests to be suspicious, as would like to confirm that you aren't the cult leader, which seems like a fair concern given that similarity in our roles. I encourage anyone with the ability to watch or otherwise confirm my action to do so and report back tomorrow. Assuming I'm given that opportunity, of course.

Because three investigations on one person is a good idea.

[Shadows]

Because three investigations on one person is a good idea.

In this case, yes. Why do I have a very specific investigation if the same result could come from a normal one? I think it could mean that the cult leader would appear town to a town investigator. It's the same question I have about the vests, I have one because someone is out to get me, why does he unless he's in the same situation, and if so, who is out to get him?

[PsyKater]

Okay, what Scooter / Shadell is saying makes some sense to me now. I don't know him / her good and I do not know how good she can lie but it would be a rather big bluff. As someone said before, truth is stranger than fiction.

There are a lot of things that are still odd though. For example the (claimed) existense of two townie bulletproof vests. I think Shadell tries to say that if she is town and has a bulletproof vest, it is very likely that the other person with a bulletproof vest is the cult leader (for balancing purposes). This would mean though that we really had to believe Shadell and to distrust our "main townie" Oscar.

What would an investigator get as result when investigating the cult leader? Cult? Town?

Shadell, is there a reason why you tried to go after <insert stagename of second person here> to hunt scum rather than going after your cult leader?

[Scubacarrot]

Here's what I think. There is no way Shadell is telling the whole truth. But. What part is untrue? The bulletproof vest part? No. Unblockable? No. Psychiatrist/investigative part? Why would she lie about that?

The roleclaim is ridiculous. If the role is real it's even more ridiculous. I don't think there is a cult. Shadell might be looking for the serial killer, not some cult? That could be the actual reason he was focussed on the day killer. And that way he could be either scum or town.

About Matilda, so the day investigator is real and found a scum result, that's great, and great we got to test that result this way, very efficient. That result better be correct, as the implications if they are not are just too stupid. And this whole situation is stupid.

I'd have no particular quarrels with lynching Shadell, but what are the implications if he's speaking the truth. We would basically be lynching a bulletproof unblockable investigator. I want to win this game, and I've seen some stupid stuff already in here already, so... Please investigate Shadell, someone who can.

Patty seems a good back up lynch, or Katie, asterisks...

[Shadows]

Shadell, is there a reason why you tried to go after <insert stagename of second person here> to hunt scum rather than going after your cult leader?

I had to investigate the second person to make sure they weren't the cult leader anyway and as a townie, it's still my job to do anything I can to find the scum at the same time. I may not have a specific ability to do so, but if I can help do it indirectly, how could I pass that up?

[Scubacarrot]

In this case, yes. Why do I have a very specific investigation if the same result could come from a normal one? I think it could mean that the cult leader would appear town to a town investigator. It's the same question I have about the vests, I have one because someone is out to get me, why does he unless he's in the same situation, and if so, who is out to get him?

I don't know Oscar's role, if he has one. I think so. It crossed my mind, of course that he has one for a reason, but yeah. Keep in mind he can give it away if he wants. I don't know.