Heartlake Heartbreak - Day Three: Don't Ask Me Why

[Shadows]

Keep in mind he can give it away if he wants.

Has he specifically claimed that?

[Scubacarrot]

Has he specifically claimed that?

I don't know. That's the whole point of having a bulletproof vest. Can't you?

[Shadows]

I don't know. That's the whole point of having a bulletproof vest. Can't you?

I very specifically can't give mine away or get rid of it. It's typical for an inventor to be able to give one away, but mine is literally part of my character. I don't even have the option to not use it.

[Scubacarrot]

I just read the conversation back and Oscar was very specific in the fact he could not give it away either. Sorry for the confusion.

That's stupid. If you have a bulletproof vest, you can give it away. If you are bulletproof, you can't. Seriously.

[Shadows]

That's stupid. If you have a bulletproof vest, you can give it away. If you are bulletproof, you can't. Seriously.

I'm pretty sure the idea was to show that neither of us is bulletproof, we're just protected for a certain number of attempts. I'm not really sure why the option to give it away doesn't exist, since that would be entirely up to us, but maybe it was a way to also keep it from being considered a normal item that could be stolen like a lunch.

[PsyKater]

I had to investigate the second person to make sure they weren't the cult leader anyway and as a townie, it's still my job to do anything I can to find the scum at the same time. I may not have a specific ability to do so, but if I can help do it indirectly, how could I pass that up?

So, the hider only would have been killed when hiding behind a scum? Not when hiding behind the cult leader?

Of course it is your job as a townie to do anything you can to find scum - BUT as Daisy said, there are still doubts that you are town and not neutral. And if you are town and if there is a cult and if you are a bulletproof investigator for finding the cult leader and if you are the only person that knows about a cult - I think it would be better to get this cult leader very soon or he may become a really big threat.

So your intentions may have been honorable, but I think if you were really town you would have make other choices. So, what are you? Meatshielding scum? Neutral? What is your win condition? Or are you even the cult leader, playing this buff to make you too valuable for a lynch?

[Scubacarrot]

I'm pretty sure the idea was to show that neither of us is bulletproof, we're just protected for a certain number of attempts. I'm not really sure why the option to give it away doesn't exist, since that would be entirely up to us, but maybe it was a way to also keep it from being considered a normal item that could be stolen like a lunch.

Vestless bulletproof is more often than not x-shot as well.

[Shadows]

So, the hider only would have been killed when hiding behind a scum? Not when hiding behind the cult leader?

Or if the person they hid behind was killed. The role traditionally doesn't kill them for hiding behind anything but scum, so I assume they wouldn't die if their target had been the cult leader.

Of course it is your job as a townie to do anything you can to find scum - BUT as Daisy said, there are still doubts that you are town and not neutral. And if you are town and if there is a cult and if you are a bulletproof investigator for finding the cult leader and if you are the only person that knows about a cult - I think it would be better to get this cult leader very soon or he may become a really big threat.

Right. Which part of this are you not following? I need to investigate everyone, that means that one of those targets is the person the hider hid behind. If I investigate them knowing they aren't scum, and they're also not the cult leader, I have someone to trust. How is that a wrong choice?

So your intentions may have been honorable, but I think if you were really town you would have make other choices. So, what are you? Meatshielding scum? Neutral? What is your win condition? Or are you even the cult leader, playing this buff to make you too valuable for a lynch?

Again, how is investigating any unknown person a wrong choice, especially if doing so means I know that they aren't scum or cult and can then trust them?

I'm beginning to see why you were the target of early suspicions today, but I can't tell if you're just really transparent scum/cult or stupid. I don't like to pull out that second one much, it makes Oscar excited, but I think even he would have to agree with my view here, what you're saying makes no sense, which either means you're desperate to prove something incorrect but can't do it effectively, or you're not smart enough to see how bad your logic is.

[Scubacarrot]

Vote: Katie (Psykater)

Just unhelpful. Promises to do better, mutiple times. Repeats a lot of stuff already said, is still summarizing. Wouldn't be a loss to the town at all.

The reason I choose Katie over Patty was because her use of asteriks may be just a general way of using emphasis.

[PsyKater]

... or you're not smart enough to see how bad your logic is.

Can't be. I am smart as hell. Ask Oscar and Daisy.

I think I know where my fallacy^(?) is. I was going from what we know now. And now it would make most sense to investigate the hedgehog. But at the end of Day 2 we did not now about his bulletproof vest did we?

What I want to say is that if you had knew about another bulletproof vest or whatever it is you should have gone after that. Instead of claiming now that you want to investigate him. I can go back and look when we knew about that.

And the reason why I am desperate to prove anything that could be there, is, that I think that you are either the best choice to lynch today or the worst choice. And this is the way I want to find out.

had knew = had known

[PsyKater]

I think I know where my fallacy^(?) is. I was going from what we know now. And now it would make most sense to investigate the hedgehog. But at the end of Day 2 we did not now about his bulletproof vest did we?

Yes, we know since today, my fault:

Your story does have corroboration from Bunsen. My worries are your poor explanation of the result, which could've just been a slip and the fact that you and I both have bulletproof vests. As you say here, there's likely a balance. I have a bulletproof vest and we have two investigation results on me that both say Town. That would be unbalanced to have two bulletproof Townies. Also, I'm not immune to blocks, hiding, jailing, so I would imagine I at least have more shots in my vest than you do. At least I hope so. I think there's a balance as well and you are the bulletproof Scum...or maybe there is a cult and you're the bulletproof cult leader yourself.

Oscar, may I ask you: Did you have your bulletproof vest from the beginning? Or did you get it from another person (or horse )? Is it in fact a vest that you can hand on or are you bulletproof yourself, as you mentioned that you "are bulletproof" once:

I certainly don't mind spreading around the fact that I'm bulletproof. Hopefully keeps the Scum killer away so I can get some work done.

Why do you worry about the scum killer when you are bulletproof / have a bulletproof vest? Is it not the best you can do to attract the Scum killer on you to save townies from his kill? Or is this again weird logic by myself?

And while I am still "most wanted", I want to here some things from the even quieter persons, esp. Penny, Wild Dragon, Billie and perhaps Patty.

Wild Dragon, you were really quiet on the first two days. Today you have said something more, but I consider most of it as not essential for us. Though I have to admit that your post about Shadell is pretty townie to me - IF Shadell turns out to be Town as well.

What me made think of you is, that on the first two days the quietest persons were killed during the day. But not you. Although you were just as quiet as they have been. Should this be just luck?

[Cecilie]

Well, it sure helped to hear the story from Shadell herself, now it at least kind of fits together (except the part about the hider seeing Matilda, which I still don't get. But I guess there could be an extra special little something in the hider's role...)

I don't actually meatshield, historically. Obviously this ventures into metagaming territory, but I don't believe in meatshielding except as a side effect of usurping. So, unless you want to speculate that Matilda was the scum boss and I created this entire scenario involving so many other people just to get her killed, it isn't possible. For that to work, everyone involved would have to be scum and willing to reveal themselves just to kill their own boss. That's even crazier sounding than my poor role.

Except, you know, I remember this one time, deep within a forest, a certain someone looking a lot like you did exactly that. Or do I remember that wrong?

Oh, and while I'm commenting, I will put this out there. If I am given the opportunity, I plan to investigate you tonight to clear up my only remaining doubts about you. I also find the existence of multiple vests to be suspicious, as would like to confirm that you aren't the cult leader, which seems like a fair concern given that similarity in our roles. I encourage anyone with the ability to watch or otherwise confirm my action to do so and report back tomorrow. Assuming I'm given that opportunity, of course.

Yes, by all means, do that. I think this is the way to go, to test all these crazy stories. By your account, if the hedgehog is the cult leader, you investigating him will kill him, right? So we don't have to take your word for it tomorrow, either he dies, or he lives.

A more difficult matter is how to test your claim, Shadell. I would love to see the investigator check you out, but what if what's really going on is that you're the scum godfather? You have a vest. Oscar has a vest. Scum godfather and town coordinator? We don't know if Oscar has any action, but I wouldn't be surprised if he does, since he has a vest.

I can only think of two possibilities right now:

- Shadell is telling the truth, and Oscar is likely to be this cult leader, since he has a vest.

- Shadell is lying and is really the scum godfather. Oscar is clear.

I wouldn't mind a lie detector right now

In any case, I don't think we should lynch Shadell today.

[def]

In any case, I don't think we should lynch Shadell today.

There's a heck of a lot to take in, but I think at least we can give him a day. But if not him, who?

I have a few who have been pinging me:

-Daisy, for both the scummy behavior with the lie detector, and the looming problem of the frames: the results seem not to be lunch-based, both due to the wording of the lunch, and to the lack of anything being found on Katie, though she'd used her lunch also. This is a big, flashing arrow pointing at Daisy.

-Dave's outburst of defense at the end of the day yesterday struck me as a scum-flail, though it could just as well be town-panic.

-Billie's been rubbing me wrong since day one. Just lots of hypothesising and fence-sitting, which seems to cloud the discussion rather than clarify it. I'd much rather see people propose the wrong thing than be so wishy-washy.

Since Matilda is out, and after Shadell, is Jimmy still at the top of Oscar's list? What are our options? I read through the day, but it really was too much to take in in the short time I have to, so concise bullet points would be nice, and most likely helpful for all after this long morning

[Scubacarrot]

Because you are too good to read the whole thread carefully?

[def]

I seem to have found something to give Daisy a defense Looking back at yesterday, when the news about the frames came up, both the scummy Walter and the likely scummy Matilda (plus the pinging Dave) all supported testing out the frames meaning with a lynch of Daisy, so it's quite likely she, at least, wasn't on their team. No clue about this suspicious cult, but for the time being, I can strike her off my scum list. (And that's why we go back and reread past days, folks )

[Cecilie]

Since Matilda is out, and after Shadell, is Jimmy still at the top of Oscar's list? What are our options? I read through the day, but it really was too much to take in in the short time I have to, so concise bullet points would be nice, and most likely helpful for all after this long morning

Jimmy seems to have some verifiable claim according to the hog, so he's on hold for now as well. I guess this leaves us with the quieter townies. I'd like to have a look at Patty. She's been rather quiet and unhelpful so far, and during the lie detector shenanigans, she claimed "innocent" after it was made out to be a point it would be better to claim town, but before the lie detector was debunked. The asterisks aside (that doesn't have to mean anything), she's been rubbing me the wrong way since the beginning.

[iamded]

I'm still reading though the transcripts Julia's kind enough to keep, and I'm thinking the best sounding bet for our votes is the person whom this Day Investigator turned up as scum. If you get an investigation result that turns up scum, then of course you test it. Then again that might be what we're doing, but I just thought I'd throw that opinion in and I'll have something more substantial in a while.

[Scubacarrot]

I'm still reading though the transcripts Julia's kind enough to keep, and I'm thinking the best sounding bet for our votes is the person whom this Day Investigator turned up as scum. If you get an investigation result that turns up scum, then of course you test it. Then again that might be what we're doing, but I just thought I'd throw that opinion in and I'll have something more substantial in a while.

That was Matilda.

[def]

Jimmy seems to have some verifiable claim according to the hog, so he's on hold for now as well. I guess this leaves us with the quieter townies. I'd like to have a look at Patty. She's been rather quiet and unhelpful so far, and during the lie detector shenanigans, she claimed "innocent" after it was made out to be a point it would be better to claim town, but before the lie detector was debunked. The asterisks aside (that doesn't have to mean anything), she's been rubbing me the wrong way since the beginning.

Well, Patty certainly has evil eyes. I worry she has what one might call "Trisha-syndrome," where the lack of experience might lead to poor decisions. I have a much harder time calling true scum behavior on people (or horses) with that particular illness. But I have nothing to say to defend her either.

What's your take on Dave? Particularly his overreactions at the end of the day yesterday, when a finger or two was softly pointed at him?

[Cecilie]

Someone needs to read first, and then talk

Well, Patty certainly has evil eyes. I worry she has what one might call "Trisha-syndrome," where the lack of experience might lead to poor decisions. I have a much harder time calling true scum behavior on people (or horses) with that particular illness. But I have nothing to say to defend her either.

What's your take on Dave? Particularly his overreactions at the end of the day yesterday, when a finger or two was softly pointed at him?

True, Patty could very well have the Trisha-syndrome.

Dave has been rubbing the wrong way too. He's kind of been overreacting the whole time, now that I think about it. And talking a lot of nonsense.

The "read first" comment was to Amy, by the way...

[Shadows]

Except, you know, I remember this one time, deep within a forest, a certain someone looking a lot like you did exactly that. Or do I remember that wrong?

The difference there is that it was supposed to be the last day with a number of actions that night insuring the win. It wasn't designed to make me look innocent, as a meatshield would, it was simply to end things quickly and was planned long before the last minute accusation that had no support. Being day 3, that would be an impossible scenario here.

Yes, by all means, do that. I think this is the way to go, to test all these crazy stories. By your account, if the hedgehog is the cult leader, you investigating him will kill him, right? So we don't have to take your word for it tomorrow, either he dies, or he lives.

Exactly, and then he would be revealed so that would confirm the whole thing. If it doesn't happen, he's one more suspect down, which is all I can really do in this situation. Hopefully someone can do something in the night to do the same for me.

A more difficult matter is how to test your claim, Shadell. I would love to see the investigator check you out, but what if what's really going on is that you're the scum godfather? You have a vest. Oscar has a vest. Scum godfather and town coordinator? We don't know if Oscar has any action, but I wouldn't be surprised if he does, since he has a vest.

The sad part there is that either one of us or anyone else could be the scum godfather since no number of investigations will ever clear that up. We've been told that it's possible to know who targeted whom, so I'm hoping at least that's used on me and Oscar to confirm that I do exactly what I say I will.

I can only think of two possibilities right now:

- Shadell is telling the truth, and Oscar is likely to be this cult leader, since he has a vest.

- Shadell is lying and is really the scum godfather. Oscar is clear.

Or Oscar is the godfather. Or we're both town. Heck, there may not even be a godfather, we've seen that recently.

In any case, I don't think we should lynch Shadell today.

I agree!

[Cecilie]

Hm, there's a piece of the puzzle I feel is missing here. I'm not sure how important it is right now, but we know that Jimmy was blocked last night, and Shadell was attempted jailkept. We also know who was jailkept on the first night, but do we know who this other mysterious blocker who blocked Jimmy last night blocked on night 1? Why did nobody come forward with that information when someone was on the lynching block (hurr...) for having been blocked when there was no kill?

[Scubacarrot]

That information is in the thread.

If you don't figure it out, shoot me a pm.

[Piratedave84]

All caught up!

Now this first:

What's your take on Dave? Particularly his overreactions at the end of the day yesterday, when a finger or two was softly pointed at him?

Dave has been rubbing the wrong way too. He's kind of been overreacting the whole time, now that I think about it. And talking a lot of nonsense.

Overreaction, yes, softly pointed, not in my opinion!

Let me give you some background info; Oscar and I had been talking for a while and I had volunteered information I found which I thought may be of interest, the conversation went on; then I went in thread only to find out that he had called me out in thread for something we were trying to figure out behonf the scene, it REALLY rubbed me the wrong way, I felt betrayed. I think this is now behind us (Oscar and I at least) and I hope you can also forgive my outburst as this is not my usual self.

On to the topic at hand, why not lynch Shadell? We have a scum result, the way I see it we have to lynch him; in my opinion there are enough curve-balls in this game these events that God could not have possibly have inserted a cult as well.

Bare in mind, this is my take on it; the possibility still exists that there is in fact a cult but I am willing to gamble and lynch Shadell today.

Lynch the confirmed scum.

[Scubacarrot]

Again. The scum result was on Matilda, who was kindly taken out by the day killer. If we had a scum result on Shadell, we would not be having this conversation, we'd have a lynch already.